JonTron: White Nationalist?

[GasBandit]

His views aren't nazi, they're white nationalist.

Most of these come from the interview he did, where he promptly put his foot directly in his mouth.

"Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, that's a fact."

"They [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

"Why is it when the chinese were trying to colonise tibet, why was that a save tibet situation but when it's white people... I'm using an analogy to try to give a parallel situation so you can see the hypocrisy."

"I don't recall Trump ever saying anything explicitly racist."

"We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries. If you don't think we've gotten rid of discrimination, you're living in a fantasy land."

The debate in full, if you want full source. It's long.

First of all, I'd just like to say that video is extremely hard to watch, as Destiny is constantly putting words in Jon's mouth and attempting to fluster him by interrupting him so repeatedly that I think Jon got interrupted more than he was actually allowed to finish talking.

Destiny also says some pretty far out shit there. So much so that he started issuing DMCA takedowns to people who played quotes of him in their videos.



Now then, as for the JonTron quotes above, they seem to be predominantly facts.

According to a study published this month in the Washington Post, all but the richest 10% of black Americans are much, much more likely to wind up in prison than any economic stratum of white Americans, including the poor. Note that's not "of people arrested, more likely to go to prison," that's "of all people born in the 60s, more likely to be in prison by the 80s."

White Americans are, in fact, in the process of being displaced as the majority ethnicity. That's long been documented.

In fact, it's also corroborated by a graphic destiny keeps on the screen for much of his video.

Furthermore, there is actually an ongoing movement among groups like La Raza and Republica Del Norte to "reconquer" the lands they see as having been stolen from them by the United States by immigration and outnumbering to the point of political majority - consisting of basically the entire Southwest and Texas, the latter of which they view as having been stolen from them in this exact manner (Tejas was "settled" by Americans until they outnumbered Mexicans 10 to 1). This is not a fringe or niche viewpoint. A zogby poll conducted in 2006 showed that 58% of Mexicans believe the American Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico.

"I don't recall Trump saying anything explicitly racist" is a bit of a stretch, to put it charitably. I suppose he could have just not have been paying attention, and if you get down to it very little of what Trump has said, when taken individually, has been "explicitly" racist (for example, he said the judge in the Trump University wouldn't give him a fair shake because "He's a Mexican," but that wasn't saying "Mexicans are bad judges" but rather that his pride in his cultural heritage created a conflict of interest during Trump's "Build a wall" campaigning, and for another example, Trump didn't say "Mexicans are rapists and criminals" but rather that people leaving Mexico to come to America were, and the "good" Mexicans were staying in Mexico), but when taken as a whole, a pattern emerges where it becomes folly to assume there isn't a fire from that much smoke. It could also be said that Trump himself isn't openly (or perhaps "explicitly") a racist, but he sure can whip up enthusiasm and support among racists. But given that Destiny's baiting "gotcha" interview with JonTron is more of the "call everything racist" leftist tedium that got us stuck with Trump in the first place, I can kinda see why Jafari might decide to pick that nit, just to give back some of what he was getting while caught off balance.

And finally, on discrimination in western countries, Jafari's largely correct. Remember, "Western Countries" isn't just America. It's also Canada, and Norway, and Switzerland, and so on. By and large (outside of France that is), countries you'd call part of Western Civilization are very much the least discriminatory. Now, granted, that is not saying discrimination has been eradicated, but things are definitely much better in the West, and far and away better than they have ever been in history.

 

[Krisken]

Being factual without context is hardly factual.

 

[PatrThom]

India: Voted most likely to be exactly where it placed in this poll.

--Patrick

 

[Ravenpoe]

First of all, I'd just like to say that video is extremely hard to watch, as Destiny is constantly putting words in Jon's mouth and attempting to fluster him by interrupting him so repeatedly that I think Jon got interrupted more than he was actually allowed to finish talking.

Destiny also says some pretty far out shit there. So much so that he started issuing DMCA takedowns to people who played quotes of him in their videos.



Now then, as for the JonTron quotes above, they seem to be predominantly facts.

According to a study published this month in the Washington Post, all but the richest 10% of black Americans are much, much more likely to wind up in prison than any economic stratum of white Americans, including the poor. Note that's not "of people arrested, more likely to go to prison," that's "of all people born in the 60s, more likely to be in prison by the 80s."

White Americans are, in fact, in the process of being displaced as the majority ethnicity. That's long been documented.

In fact, it's also corroborated by a graphic destiny keeps on the screen for much of his video.

Furthermore, there is actually an ongoing movement among groups like La Raza and Republica Del Norte to "reconquer" the lands they see as having been stolen from them by the United States by immigration and outnumbering to the point of political majority - consisting of basically the entire Southwest and Texas, the latter of which they view as having been stolen from them in this exact manner (Tejas was "settled" by Americans until they outnumbered Mexicans 10 to 1). This is not a fringe or niche viewpoint. A zogby poll conducted in 2006 showed that 58% of Mexicans believe the American Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico.

"I don't recall Trump saying anything explicitly racist" is a bit of a stretch, to put it charitably. I suppose he could have just not have been paying attention, and if you get down to it very little of what Trump has said, when taken individually, has been "explicitly" racist (for example, he said the judge in the Trump University wouldn't give him a fair shake because "He's a Mexican," but that wasn't saying "Mexicans are bad judges" but rather that his pride in his cultural heritage created a conflict of interest during Trump's "Build a wall" campaigning, and for another example, Trump didn't say "Mexicans are rapists and criminals" but rather that people leaving Mexico to come to America were, and the "good" Mexicans were staying in Mexico), but when taken as a whole, a pattern emerges where it becomes folly to assume there isn't a fire from that much smoke. It could also be said that Trump himself isn't openly (or perhaps "explicitly") a racist, but he sure can whip up enthusiasm and support among racists. But given that Destiny's baiting "gotcha" interview with JonTron is more of the "call everything racist" leftist tedium that got us stuck with Trump in the first place, I can kinda see why Jafari might decide to pick that nit, just to give back some of what he was getting while caught off balance.

And finally, on discrimination in western countries, Jafari's largely correct. Remember, "Western Countries" isn't just America. It's also Canada, and Norway, and Switzerland, and so on. By and large (outside of France that is), countries you'd call part of Western Civilization are very much the least discriminatory. Now, granted, that is not saying discrimination has been eradicated, but things are definitely much better in the West, and far and away better than they have ever been in history.

I never said anything about the quality of Destiny's character. He's a scumbag and JonTron was kinda stupid to agree debating with him, especially since he seemed very unprepared.

I'm really not interested in debating the rest with you. Quotes were asked for, so I provided them. I will point out that conviction rate is not the same as amount of crime committed, but I'm pretty sure you know that already.

JonTron presents these 'facts' as proof of the danger against white culture, and why immigration needs to be stopped and controlled in favor of maintaining a white nation. The irony that he is himself the son of an immigrant at least makes this otherwise sad and gross situation amusing.


I have a feeling you just want to argue for sake of devil's advocate, and that's fine, but I live in a place where there are known public officials that are actual members of the KKK, which is hilariously still a thing. I no longer have the patience to argue against white nationalism, and how the new crop of what I can only describe as political trolls gravitate to it.

 

[Frank]

Yes.

 

[DarkAudit]

While he was apparently suckered into expressing views that were best left unexpressed, Pewdiepie did it for the lulz, then tried to play the "I was only kidding" card when called on it. Of the two, that's worse, IMO.

 

[Frank]

He wasn't suckered, he's an idiot who's been tweeting his white nationalist nonsense the whole time. He also happens to be dreadfully ignorant and not all the bright on the subject.

 

[Ravenpoe]

He wasn't suckered, he's an idiot who's been tweeting his white nationalist nonsense the whole time. He also happens to be dreadfully ignorant and not all the bright on the subject.

He also seems to be pretty big on the mens rights anti feminism thing, just judging from his tweets

 

[GasBandit]

Well, he's right. Haven't been a whole lot of calls for, say, Japan to stop its cultural protectionism, at least not since the US did so at cannonpoint.

Everybody everywhere outside the Tigris-Euphrates corridor is descended from immigrants if you go back far enough. It's irrelevant, and isn't a reason to abdicate national sovereignty and go whole hog on open, unfiltered immigration.

I think this was a case of trying to have a discussion 140 character at a time. The United States was founded by and thus continues to be a part of western civilization. That entails certain values. If a middle eastern country such as Iran, the UAE, or Saudi Arabia were to found a colony that spun off into a nation, do you think it would afford the same "opportunities" as the US? Would women have equal rights? Be allowed even to drive? Would homosexuals be able to be open about their sexual preference without fear of death, much less celebrate it as is commonly done in the US? How many non-islamic places of worship would be tolerated? Would even a single synagogue be allowed? There is a definite cultural divide.

Yes.

The only thing I've seen so far (aside from Trump-blindness) is a refusal to take his soma and go with the flow on the leftist narrative that all cultures that aren't rooted in western civilization are wonderful and unquestionable.

 

[Frank]

Yeah, ok, so aside from him saying out loud that he hates niggers of sorts, sand included, you won't ever see him as white nationalist.

 

[Tress]

Yeah, ok, so aside from him saying out loud that he hates niggers of sorts, sand included, you won't ever see him as white nationalist.

That's what I'm getting too.

This is fucking stupid. You're splitting hairs or clinging to technicalities to give the guy cover for saying a bunch of white nationalist bullshit that was, at the very least, dog-whistle racism. I honestly thought you were better than this, Gas.

 

[GasBandit]

Yeah, ok, so aside from him saying out loud that he hates niggers of sorts, sand included, you won't ever see him as white nationalist.

Translation: "I have problems with facts and don't let logic get in the way of crucifying anyone who doesn't 110% toe the line of the narrative I believe."

I got a JonTron tweet for YOU.

[DOUBLEPOST=1491058257,1491058168][/DOUBLEPOST]

That's what I'm getting too.

This is fucking stupid. You're splitting hairs or clinging to technicalities to give the guy cover for saying a bunch of white nationalist bullshit that was, at the very least, dog-whistle racism. I honestly thought you were better than this, Gas.

No, I know racism when I see it. This is a witch hunt.

 

[MindDetective]

First of all, I'd just like to say that video is extremely hard to watch, as Destiny is constantly putting words in Jon's mouth and attempting to fluster him by interrupting him so repeatedly that I think Jon got interrupted more than he was actually allowed to finish talking.

OK, so I didn't watch the video, I know nothing about this scandal or the guy in the center of everything, but I had a few thoughts that I could blurt out. Go internet!

Now then, as for the JonTron quotes above, they seem to be predominantly facts.

According to a study published this month in the Washington Post, all but the richest 10% of black Americans are much, much more likely to wind up in prison than any economic stratum of white Americans, including the poor. Note that's not "of people arrested, more likely to go to prison," that's "of all people born in the 60s, more likely to be in prison by the 80s."

This isn't so much fact as it is selectively zeroing in on a fuzzy spot until it kind of looks like a face. The social sciences are plagued right now with some data integrity issues, which include researchers slicing and dicing the data until they happen to find something interesting. Case in point in the graphic above: 1957 - 1965? Why those dates? 1985? Why? As Krisken said, context matters. I have a strong suspicion that the context for the research graphic is, "Hey, look, we found something when we squinted and crossed our eyes for long enough!"

White Americans are, in fact, in the process of being displaced as the majority ethnicity. That's long been documented.

In fact, it's also corroborated by a graphic destiny keeps on the screen for much of his video.

It might be true, but it isn't justification for anything. You want to keep the white population from shrinking, go have some babies.

And finally, on discrimination in western countries, Jafari's largely correct. Remember, "Western Countries" isn't just America. It's also Canada, and Norway, and Switzerland, and so on. By and large (outside of France that is), countries you'd call part of Western Civilization are very much the least discriminatory. Now, granted, that is not saying discrimination has been eradicated, but things are definitely much better in the West, and far and away better than they have ever been in history.

This is probably true and relevant to more below. I will note that you are implying that being non-discriminatory seems to be a positive thing here. Reducing that would seem to be a negative thing, therefore.

Well, he's right. Haven't been a whole lot of calls for, say, Japan to stop its cultural protectionism, at least not since the US did so at cannonpoint.

And this is what prompted me to jump in. Is the argument, "They do it, so why don't we?" That should look dumb on its face. Is it "We can't change them, so we might as well be the ones to change"? Not an especially strong argument. Is it "Nobody seems to be harrassing those people about being more open and accepting"? If so, gee, I wonder why. Also, it isn't relevant to our own "cultural interests". It seems to just be a complaint about how unfair the criticism is being spread about. Boohoo? In all honesty, I simply don't see anything convincing whatsoever in pointing out the fact that other countries are less open and accepting than we are, especially since you pointed out above that this is largely taken as a positive.

Everybody everywhere outside the Tigris-Euphrates corridor is descended from immigrants if you go back far enough. It's irrelevant, and isn't a reason to abdicate national sovereignty and go whole hog on open, unfiltered immigration.

Those other countries that are less accepting? They are driving some people away, driving them towards more accepting and open places. Places that have a history of accepting immigrants. "Abdicate national sovereignty" and "unfiltered immigration" are strawman positions

I think this was a case of trying to have a discussion 140 character at a time. The United States was founded by and thus continues to be a part of western civilization. That entails certain values. If a middle eastern country such as Iran, the UAE, or Saudi Arabia were to found a colony that spun off into a nation, do you think it would afford the same "opportunities" as the US? Would women have equal rights? Be allowed even to drive? Would homosexuals be able to be open about their sexual preference without fear of death, much less celebrate it as is commonly done in the US? How many non-islamic places of worship would be tolerated? Would even a single synagogue be allowed? There is a definite cultural divide.

I don't think "founding stock" implies ANY of the things you say here. At all. Also, see the same counterpoints made above.

The only thing I've seen so far (aside from Trump-blindness) is a refusal to take his soma and go with the flow on the leftist narrative that all cultures that aren't rooted in western civilization are wonderful and unquestionable.

Strawman. I see some protectionism, cherrypicking, and blindness to western cultural values.

Translation: "I have problems with facts and don't let logic get in the way of crucifying anyone who doesn't 110% toe the line of the narrative I believe."

That swings both ways, buddy.

 

[@Li3n]

"They [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

Heh, yeah, that's just like with the natives, who where simply moved around by the Europeans, and no one died or anything.

I don't know if the fact that they clearly don't believe what they're spouting is a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[@Li3n]

Would women have equal rights? Be allowed even to drive? Would homosexuals be able to be open about their sexual preference without fear of death, much less celebrate it as is commonly done in the US?

Ah yes, those good ol' 1776 western culture values...

I mean could you imagine if the US had been founded by immigrants form a nation where they had a religious cold war, and some Guy tried to blow up Parliament over it? Or if big parts of those very same immigrants where fleeing religious persecution back home?

Man, that place would have turned out so bad...


EDIT: Oh, and what's with everyone getting scared when white people start talking about taking their nation back from "those people" that are ruining it and have been breeding too much... i mean it's not like there's some precedent there that ended in any sort of burning....

 

[@Li3n]

Wait, doesn't that chart contradict him, as at 10 white people are higher?

And really, you think that if a police force is discriminating against people it would only be for conviction rates, but not affect arrests?

And finally, on discrimination in western countries, Jafari's largely correct. Remember, "Western Countries" isn't just America. It's also Canada, and Norway, and Switzerland, and so on. By and large (outside of France that is), countries you'd call part of Western Civilization are very much the least discriminatory. Now, granted, that is not saying discrimination has been eradicated, but things are definitely much better in the West, and far and away better than they have ever been in history.

Ah yes, good ol' self reporting. Meanwhile, over in France, some cops sodomised a black kid on camera... and i haven't heard anything about it since.

And i've also heard plenty of stories about western europeans changing attitude once they heard you're from an eastern country...

But hey, this JonTron guy says he's not a racist, and he would totally not move out of a neighbourhood that had more black people...

...

Then again, you are right that it's the best it's been in history... but that doesn't make it be good.

 

[GasBandit]

This isn't so much fact as it is selectively zeroing in on a fuzzy spot until it kind of looks like a face. The social sciences are plagued right now with some data integrity issues, which include researchers slicing and dicing the data until they happen to find something interesting. Case in point in the graphic above: 1957 - 1965? Why those dates? 1985? Why? As Krisken said, context matters. I have a strong suspicion that the context for the research graphic is, "Hey, look, we found something when we squinted and crossed our eyes for long enough!"

The point is, there is accepted, peer-reviewed, published data to report. Your suspicions here sound a lot like my suspicions back on the global warming debate a few weeks ago, and I'll completely admit that a study today may be refuted tomorrow - but the point is "Rick black people end up in prison more than poor white people" is not something Jontron pulled out of his ass just to be racist.

It might be true, but it isn't justification for anything. You want to keep the white population from shrinking, go have some babies.

My childlessness is not for lack of trying. Fortunately Stienman's around to pick up my slack

But immigration control is another way to maintain a cultural majority, and it's also what Japan is doing in the face of their own shrinking birthrates. But never is anything more than "yeah well, Japan is Japan what ya gonna do lol" is ever said about it.

This is probably true and relevant to more below. I will note that you are implying that being non-discriminatory seems to be a positive thing here. Reducing that would seem to be a negative thing, therefore.

That doesn't mean we're obligated to throw open our borders to all and sundry, regardless of (lack of) willingness to assimilate or incompatible value system.

And this is what prompted me to jump in. Is the argument, "They do it, so why don't we?" That should look dumb on its face. Is it "We can't change them, so we might as well be the ones to change"? Not an especially strong argument. Is it "Nobody seems to be harrassing those people about being more open and accepting"? If so, gee, I wonder why. Also, it isn't relevant to our own "cultural interests". It seems to just be a complaint about how unfair the criticism is being spread about. Boohoo? In all honesty, I simply don't see anything convincing whatsoever in pointing out the fact that other countries are less open and accepting than we are, especially since you pointed out above that this is largely taken as a positive.

It's not "they do it so why don't we," it's that there's a double standard, driven and perpetuated by willful ignorance of incompatible cultural values and motivations.

Those other countries that are less accepting? They are driving some people away, driving them towards more accepting and open places. Places that have a history of accepting immigrants. "Abdicate national sovereignty" and "unfiltered immigration" are strawman positions

They're basically what Jontron's critics advocate. That anybody who wants to come here can and must be allowed, regardless of any objection. They're the same people who say things like "no immigrant is illegal."

I don't think "founding stock" implies ANY of the things you say here. At all. Also, see the same counterpoints made above.

And I think it does, as it is (as I said) a forced abbreviation to fit an entire argument in under twitter's 140 character limit. The "founding stock" of the nation was largely western european - IE, Western civilization.

Strawman. I see some protectionism, cherrypicking, and blindness to western cultural values.

Nope. It's a real thing that has been festering in leftist politics for decades now.

Wait, doesn't that chart contradict him, as at 10 white people are higher?

No, he was not comparing to rich white people.

And really, you think that if a police force is discriminating against people it would only be for conviction rates, but not affect arrests?

The study was about prison incarceration, not short term jail time. The kinds of offenses that land you in prison are not the kind for which Sherriff Buford will let you off with a warning because you're white.

Ah yes, good ol' self reporting. Meanwhile, over in France, some cops sodomised a black kid on camera... and i haven't heard anything about it since.

Well, I did specifically call out France as an exclusion

And i've also heard plenty of stories about western europeans changing attitude once they heard you're from an eastern country...

On that, I have no knowledge. Got links?

Then again, you are right that it's the best it's been in history... but that doesn't make it be good.

0%-4.9% is pretty damn good.

 

[Gruebeard]

"They [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

Just out of curiosity, who is he saying is slaughtering white Americans and pushing them off their land?

 

[Hailey Knight]

So Jontron is scared that white people will become a minority in the U.S. Why? Do bad things happen to minorities here?

 

[MindDetective]

The point is, there is accepted, peer-reviewed, published data to report. Your suspicions here sound a lot like my suspicions back on the global warming debate a few weeks ago, and I'll completely admit that a study today may be refuted tomorrow - but the point is "Rick black people end up in prison more than poor white people" is not something Jontron pulled out of his ass just to be racist.

My childlessness is not for lack of trying. Fortunately Stienman's around to pick up my slack

But immigration control is another way to maintain a cultural majority, and it's also what Japan is doing in the face of their own shrinking birthrates. But never is anything more than "yeah well, Japan is Japan what ya gonna do lol" is ever said about it.

That doesn't mean we're obligated to throw open our borders to all and sundry, regardless of (lack of) willingness to assimilate or incompatible value system.

It's not "they do it so why don't we," it's that there's a double standard, driven and perpetuated by willful ignorance of incompatible cultural values and motivations.

They're basically what Jontron's critics advocate. That anybody who wants to come here can and must be allowed, regardless of any objection. They're the same people who say things like "no immigrant is illegal."

And I think it does, as it is (as I said) a forced abbreviation to fit an entire argument in under twitter's 140 character limit. The "founding stock" of the nation was largely western european - IE, Western civilization.

Nope. It's a real thing that has been festering in leftist politics for decades now.

No, he was not comparing to rich white people.

The study was about prison incarceration, not short term jail time. The kinds of offenses that land you in prison are not the kind for which Sherriff Buford will let you off with a warning because you're white.

Well, I did specifically call out France as an exclusion

On that, I have no knowledge. Got links?


0%-4.9% is pretty damn good.

re: the "double standard" See: "Boohoo?"

And sorry, but my strawman criticisms are not opinion. That is literally the logical fallacy you invoked. I'm just stating things that are true (see what I did there?)

tldr; You are probably arguing against composite of many different viewpoints.

 

[GasBandit]

"They [whites] are not being killed, they're being displaced. You are the same guy who says that Europeans displaced the native Americans but apparently, when other people do it to white Americans, it's okay because fuck white people."

Just out of curiosity, who is he saying is slaughtering white Americans and pushing them off their land?

He specifically says they are not being "slaughtered." And not every case of displacement is the trail of tears. Texas became a nation, and later a state, because white people from the US moved there in such numbers that they became the dominant political force. When Mexico tried to stem the tide by banning immigration from the US in 1830, the ones already here agitated for revolt, and the rest is history. It's kind of easy to see that sort of happening in reverse, as I said in my initial post in this thread. Heck, something similar happened in Ukraine very recently.

tldr; You are probably arguing against composite of many different viewpoints.

That's a possibility, granted. But I'm trying to address what I see in those being most vociferous in their condemnation of Jafari.

 

[Krisken]

Wow.

 

[blotsfan]

Would homosexuals be able to be open about their sexual preference without fear of death

L-O-Fucking-L

 

[GasBandit]

L-O-Fucking-L

Still-fucking-true.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-punished-by-death-2/?utm_term=.a10d1f4dfd3f

 

[blotsfan]

Still-fucking-true.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-punished-by-death-2/?utm_term=.a10d1f4dfd3f

Oh I'm not denying that. Just that calling the US some progressive Mecca for gay people is absurd. Yeah it's not a capital offense but I wouldn't exactly brag.

 

[Vrii]

Was not expecting to come here today to find a thread where Gas defends white nationalism. Very interesting.

 

[figmentPez]

Now then, as for the JonTron quotes above, they seem to be predominantly facts.

According to a study published this month in the Washington Post, all but the richest 10% of black Americans are much, much more likely to wind up in prison than any economic stratum of white Americans, including the poor. Note that's not "of people arrested, more likely to go to prison," that's "of all people born in the 60s, more likely to be in prison by the 80s."

But does this mean that rich black kids are committing more crimes, or that they're being sent to prison more often? There's a BIG difference. Because what JonTron said, is "Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, that's a fact" but what's actually in evidence is something very different.

 

[GasBandit]

Oh I'm not denying that. Just that calling the US some progressive Mecca for gay people is absurd. Yeah it's not a capital offense but I wouldn't exactly brag.

I didn't even remotely say that. I said here it wasn't a state-mandated death sentence.

But does this mean that rich black kids are committing more crimes, or that they're being sent to prison more often? There's a BIG difference. Because what JonTron said, is "Wealthy Blacks commit more crimes than poor whites, that's a fact" but what's actually in evidence is something very different.

Not as big a difference as one might think at first blush (unless one also ascribes to MindDetective's suspicion re: data integrity). This is not "of those arrested, how many go to prison," it's a straight percentage rate sampling of who ends up in prison by 28, sorted by ethnicity and wealth. Note that, as @lien pointed out, it also shows that the richest 10% of white people go to prison more than the poorest 10% of white people, or the richest 10% of black people. But outside that amusing bit, it pretty much says what Jafari said it does.

 

[figmentPez]

Not as big a difference as one might think at first blush (unless one also ascribes to MindDetective's suspicion re: data integrity). This is not "of those arrested, how many go to prison," it's a straight percentage rate sampling of who ends up in prison by 28, sorted by ethnicity and wealth. Note that, as @lien pointed out, it also shows that the richest 10% of white people go to prison more than the poorest 10% of white people, or the richest 10% of black people. But outside that amusing bit, it pretty much says what Jafari said it does.

Woah, wait a minute. Being arrested is only a small part of the picture. Not everyone who commits a crime is targeted for investigation. (i.e. If you're trespassing as a poor white kid, you might just get a warning, if people notice at all. If you're a rich black kid, you're probably going to get at least arrested. And that's not even getting into issues of drugs and their perception in white communities vs black.) Next, not everyone who does get noticed by police for their crime is arrested, then prosecuted, then imprisoned.

Are you getting the point yet? People who have gone to prison for their crimes have 1. Caught the attention of law enforcement, 2. Maintained that interest long enough to be arrested, 3. Either plea bargained or went to trial, 4. Had a sentence that actually included prison. Hence, the statistic of "more whatever go to prison for their crime" is NOT proof that more of that demographic are committing crimes.

That more rich white people go to prison than poor white people doesn't prove that more rich people are committing crimes than poor people, all it proves is that more of them are going to prison. It might indicate that they're committing more crimes, but without more data it's not proof. Think about why a higher percentage of rich white people are going to prison for their crimes than poor white people. It's because people care enough about money to go to trial over it. Some rich white guy commits tax fraud and someone notices, there's a lot higher chance he's going to prison than some poor white dude who cheats on his taxes. And that's not even getting into cases where some poor white dude repeatedly drives drunk and only gets fines and a suspended license, or a white teen who gets a suspended sentence for dealing pot.

All that and we're not even getting into the definition of "crime" since not all crime carries a prison sentence.

 

[GasBandit]

Woah, wait a minute. Being arrested is only a small part of the picture. Not everyone who commits a crime is targeted for investigation. (i.e. If you're trespassing as a poor white kid, you might just get a warning, if people notice at all. If you're a rich black kid, you're probably going to get at least arrested. And that's not even getting into issues of drugs and their perception in white communities vs black.) Next, not everyone who does get noticed by police for their crime is arrested, then prosecuted, then imprisoned.

Are you getting the point yet? People who have gone to prison for their crimes have 1. Caught the attention of law enforcement, 2. Maintained that interest long enough to be arrested, 3. Either plea bargained or went to trial, 4. Had a sentence that actually included prison. Hence, the statistic of "more whatever go to prison for their crime" is NOT proof that more of that demographic are committing crimes.

So what you are asserting is that all the police and judicial systems in the US are so biased against minorities that at least 75% of prison-caliber crimes committed by white people are going unpunished, basically? Because the numbers show that the rate is 4-10 times higher. And I'm sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test at all.

Think about why a higher percentage of rich white people are going to prison for their crimes than poor white people. It's because people care enough about money to go to trial over it. Some rich white guy commits tax fraud and someone notices, there's a lot higher chance he's going to prison than some poor white dude who cheats on his taxes. And that's not even getting into cases where some poor white dude repeatedly drives drunk and only gets fines and a suspended license, or a white teen who gets a suspended sentence for dealing pot.

All of this is pure conjecture.

 

[@Li3n]

So what you are asserting is that all the police and judicial systems in the US are so biased against minorities that at least 75% of prison-caliber crimes committed by white people are going unpunished, basically? Because the numbers show that the rate is 4-10 times higher. And I'm sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test at all.

Let me introduce you to my friends, Mary and Jane.

Also, back when Zimmerman got off for having someone he was following fight him, a black women got sent to 20 years in prison for shooting a gun in the air while being strangled by someone she had a restraining order against...[DOUBLEPOST=1491156723,1491156450][/DOUBLEPOST]

No, he was not comparing to rich white people.

No, but he was comparing rich black people, who apparently commit less crimes then even rich white people... so technically only by-one-under-rich white people commit less crime then them.

The study was about prison incarceration, not short term jail time. The kinds of offenses that land you in prison are not the kind for which Sherriff Buford will let you off with a warning because you're white.

See my comment above about my friend Mary and Jane...

On that, I have no knowledge. Got links?

Of what, people i know talking about it?

Just go search for post-brexit polish attacks i guess.

 

[GasBandit]

Also, back when Zimmerman got off for having someone he was following fight him, a black women got sent to 20 years in prison for shooting a gun in the air while being strangled by someone she had a restraining order against...

That's not the whole story of what happened. Despite having a restraining order, she went to HIS home and spent the night there. The next day during an argument, she went into the garage, where her car was, despite both later testifying they knew each the garage door would't open and there being two other unobstructed exits from the house. She was not "being strangled." She got her (legally owned) gun out of her car, went BACK into the kitchen, and aimed it at him. Her "warning shot" hit the wall near him at the level of his head, not "fired into the air." Sounds less like a warning shot and more like a miss, to me. The guy and the kids (who were in the line of fire, by the way) fled the house and called 911, which she did not. Then, when she was out on bail, she went BACK to his house and attacked him, injuring his face. She ended up making a plea deal for time served plus a couple months. All this is in the court documents.

No, but he was comparing rich black people, who apparently commit less crimes then even rich white people... so technically only by-one-under-rich white people commit less crime then them.

You're changing the parameters. The data shown clearly shows that only the top 10% of each are close, and then by a fraction of a percentage. That aside, all levels of black people, rich or poor, have a higher tendency to end up in prison than white people, rich or poor.

Of what, people i know talking about it?

Well, if it's a thing, chances are there's documentation of it online, yes?

Just go search for post-brexit polish attacks i guess.

That's a non sequitur (and laziness, telling me to google things to support your argument).

On a note related to the crime rates:
Study finds all-white juries convict black defendants 16% more often than white - not 4-10 times more.

 

[Vrii]

You know what? Let's get this out in the open. Gas: you're arguing pretty forcefully to support the idea that black people commit significantly more crime than white people do - why? What's the conclusion that this is supporting for you?

 

[figmentPez]

So what you are asserting is that all the police and judicial systems in the US are so biased against minorities that at least 75% of prison-caliber crimes committed by white people are going unpunished, basically? Because the numbers show that the rate is 4-10 times higher. And I'm sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test at all.

It doesn't? ABC News Australia says different
" in the US prison system, although Latinos are less likely to be involved in violent crime than any other ethnic group, they are the fastest growing minority group in the prison population. "
" Although white people are more likely to take drugs, for instance, nearly 75 per cent of people in US prisons for drug offences are black or Latino."

So, if more white people are committing the crime of doing drugs, and they're the majority population of the US, why are they so underrepresented in prison? HOLY SHIT, it's almost like I'M FUCKING RIGHT. I'm done with this bullshit. I'm in a fuck-ton of pain right now and I can't be asked to deal with such blatant ignorance.

All of this is pure conjecture.

It' CONJECTURE that someone who cheats on their <$20,000 income taxes is more likely to face jail time than someone who cheats on their >$1 Million income taxes? Bull fucking shit. People pay fines when they cheat the system by not reporting their tips (hell, most of the time, if they're that poor, they didn't actually owe anything in the first place).

 

[GasBandit]

It doesn't? ABC News Australia says different
" in the US prison system, although Latinos are less likely to be involved in violent crime than any other ethnic group, they are the fastest growing minority group in the prison population. "
" Although white people are more likely to take drugs, for instance, nearly 75 per cent of people in US prisons for drug offences are black or Latino."

The first is because Latinos are the fastest growing minority group, full stop, and the second is comparing a per-capita figure to a total. And even if it wasn't, it doesn't cover the gap. Plus, the exact wording is "more likely to have experimented with drugs." That means it could be a 1-and-done in the privacy of a home with no recidivism. Also, the drug narrative is inflated:

Prison populations by crime-

While drug convictions did see a drastic uptick between 1986 and 1997, it is still far outstripped by violent offenders.

HOLY SHIT, it's almost like I'M FUCKING RIGHT. I'm done with this bullshit. I'm in a fuck-ton of pain right now and I can't be asked to deal with such blatant ignorance.

Then by all means, take a break. Get back to me later, or don't, whatever. I'm not here to cause pain.

It' CONJECTURE that someone who cheats on their <$20,000 income taxes is more likely to face jail time than someone who cheats on their >$1 Million income taxes? Bull fucking shit. People pay fines when they cheat the system by not reporting their tips (hell, most of the time, if they're that poor, they didn't actually owe anything in the first place).

Any unsourced conclusions are, by their very nature, conjecture. It's also not a very representative crime statistic - about 2000 people are convicted a year for tax crime, compared to roughly 140,000-180,000 per year on drug charges and over 1 million/year for violent crime.[DOUBLEPOST=1491179025,1491178898][/DOUBLEPOST]

You know what? Let's get this out in the open. Gas: you're arguing pretty forcefully to support the idea that black people commit significantly more crime than white people do - why? What's the conclusion that this is supporting for you?

Because it is a fact - a fact that seems to shock people so badly they refuse to believe it, and brand people who state the fact - IE, Jon Jafari - as racist for doing so. And I don't like witch hunts.