JonTron: White Nationalist?
- Thread starter GasBandit
- Start date
I know, I meant its dumb taking such chances when your language is sponsored. He's basically the Youtube's Don Imus.
Edit: Oh lord I wrote "The Youtube's", did I just turn seventy for a second?
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Neither do witches.
GasBandit
Staff member
Thing is, hunts happen quite often regardless of the presence or absence of witches.
If we accept it - completely devoid of any context and potentially the result of cherry-picked data, but regardless - as a fact, what does it prove? What conclusion is it supporting? Black people go to prison more than white people, therefore...?
GasBandit
Staff member
The context of the quote, in the video, happens at 36:11 (should cue up automatically).
Destiny: If you wanted to fix crime in the United States, the best way to do it would be to deport all of the poor people, because poor whites commit a lot of crime, too. Disproportionately compared to wealthier whites.
JonTron: That's just not true. But you ca...
Destiny: WAITWAITWAITWAITWAIT
JonTron: Wait, relative to wealthier whites, yes, you're correct.
Destiny: So do you think poor blacks commit more crime relative to wealthier black people?
JonTron: They do. Wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites. That's a fact.
Destiny: Wait, what?
Jontron: Look it up. BRB, gotta go get water.
Destiny: (stunned silence).... does anybody have a source for that?
Jon is poking holes in Destiny's assertion that crime has its roots purely in economic causes ("deporting all the poor people would fix crime"), instead asserting that there is also a cultural element. Black american culture has a well documented and oft lamented tendency to celebrate and glorify criminal enterprise as part of its identity. While there is an economic element, there is also a cultural one, and Jafari is not a racist for pointing that out.
This. IDGAF about JonTron, Pewdiepie, or h3h3 (now that they've jumped in to litter my internets with this crap). Nothing they do or say has any relevance to the wider world, if the wider world even knows who these idiots are. They only serve to get certain tiny little corners of the interweb's knickers in a twist.
Not to be a downer, but a lot of kids watch their shows. That's not nothing considering the way we're seeing members of our generation twist toward the alt right. It could be worse the next go-round.
Define "a lot." O'Reilly keeps bragging about his YUGE ratings, but compared to actual network television, it's a drop in a bucket that's a drop in a bucket. Have you ever heard anyone mention these guys outside of the internet?
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Yes. My cousins and their friends were nuts over PewdiePie last year. Apparently he was a big deal to their school. No idea how they feel now or if they still watch, but keep in mind he had business with Disney.
Doesn't anymore, of course. They don't like Nazi shit, regardless of whether or not the person believes in it.
GasBandit
Staff member
No, you're putting words in my mouth. I created this thread to keep this discussion out of the movie thread, but the discussion started when Frank, for the second or third time that I can remember, said that JonTron is a "racist, ethnic superiority nazi" with other people bandwagoning on the trashtalk express. I asked for evidence. I've still yet to hear anything that indicates Jafari is a nazi, a white supremacist, or even a plain old racist. I refuted the examples given me, and await more, if they're coming. There have been ZERO value judgements coming out of me. You're asserting that facts are racist, as are those that speak them, if they're uncomfortable to minorities and those that white knight them.
What Zero said. Pewdiepie basically owns the soul of most americans under 10. Youtube is the new TV for kids these days. People are taking their kids to live appearances of people who play minecraft on youtube for a living. All my best friend's 8 year old daughter wants to do, ever, is play Roblox and watch Youtube. Simultaneously.
My ears are burning.
Have 7yr-old. Can confirm.
Stampy Longnose, PopularMMOs, SquiddyPlays, EvanTubeHD. All. Day. Long.
He found and played Larva on Netflix today. It so incredibly stupid and juvenile, but I couldn't stop watching it help me.
--Patrick
Exactly. This is what I was looking to say, but couldn't find the words.
fade
Staff member
All that map of people self-reporting whether they want people of other ethnicities living near them shows me is the current political mood. People gave the answer they felt like they were supposed to. It may have very little correlation with what they actually feel.
As for lefties feeling that other cultures are wonderful and do no wrong, I can safely say I have never met any actual human being who believes this. This is the classic mistake people make about tolerance vs agreement. I am free to believe that a great number of cultures out there are wrong about a great number of their ideals. But I can completely, separately tolerate them.[DOUBLEPOST=1491230018,1491229645][/DOUBLEPOST]
This is actually the same problem people on the left have with gun control discussion. You can't even talk about it, because people immediately jump to conclusions and won't even permit the discussion.
As for lefties feeling that other cultures are wonderful and do no wrong, I can safely say I have never met any actual human being who believes this. This is the classic mistake people make about tolerance vs agreement. I am free to believe that a great number of cultures out there are wrong about a great number of their ideals. But I can completely, separately tolerate them.[DOUBLEPOST=1491230018,1491229645][/DOUBLEPOST]
You do have a point here. No, he's not a racist for pointing this out. In fact, pointing it out is key to a progressive discussion. As long as we can also talk about the probable underlying cause for this. You don't poop in your bed unless you don't think of it as your bed because you feel like you've been excluded from the bed.
This is actually the same problem people on the left have with gun control discussion. You can't even talk about it, because people immediately jump to conclusions and won't even permit the discussion.
I have, and plenty of them. No, not two or three. Yes, I admit I went to a (certainly by American standards) very left-wing university.I have met organized groups of (white) people who very honestly and seriously believe we (white people) are to blame for all that is wrong in the world and the Earth would be better off without us - all problems of black people, Muslims, the reason communism failed in the USSR - they're all directly linked to white capitalist men calling the shots and abusing people of color and/or other cultures. Without white men, the world would be a better place where Europe and Asia would be communist utopias, America and Africa would be hippie-native-freedom tribal societies living with, not against, nature in gigantic nature reserves, and so on. Their cultural relativism knows no bounds, and in some ways, they're as arrogant (and racist) as anyone I've met on the far right - assuming "we" are pretty much Evil and all those others are free from any blame - but "we"' somehow managed to corrupt all of "them".
By which, for the record, I don't mean this is a very common or normal view - of course I'm talking about fringe political parties and organizations. Racial guilt complex crap.
Anyway, the whole point of "Is it racist?" comes down to something else than "Black people commit more crimes". The point is the argument being made. If you say "Black people commit more crimes because they're black", then, yes, sorry, that's racist. If you want to make another point about cultural/societal problems, have fun.
Poor people commit more crimes - black people are more often poor.
Lower-education commit more crimes - black people are lower-schooled on average.
Urban people commit more crimes - and black people are far more concentrated in the cities (especially the poor).
And so on, and so forth. Besides, it's fun to just throw around numbers, but things add up. Since I don't want ot do the legwork to get the exact numbers, let's spitball. And yes, this means these numbers don't mean anything. Checking on line I find that for most violent crime, the difference between poorest and richest is more or less double the rate. Between urban vs rural, it's about a 40% difference (I looked at international studies, where, you know, in some countries race doesn't factor into that equation. It doesn't matter much). Let's assume that because of police discrimination you have 10% more chance of walking away with something if you're white (a white guy and a black guy smoke a joint in the street, who'll get arrested?). I admit this number is completely pulled out of my ass - for smaller infraction the difference is likely much bigger, while for big crimes it may be smaller (though racist police might "look no further" once they have a black murder suspect and all that jazz so there might still be a difference). Let's say another 10% difference in chance of getting convicted because of racism in the jury. And another 10% odds that the white guy'll get a suspended sentence or have the sentence commuted. Suddenly a black guy has over five times as much chance of ending up in jail than a white guy, completely because of other factors. Play around with some of the numbers, throw in some other factors such as prejudice in the "war on drugs" and so forth and "8x more likely to end up in prison" is nothing, really - and speaks more to systemic racism being a serious problem than anything else.
Necronic
Staff member
2 things
1). Jontron is half Iranian, which is just kind of funny in context
2) As a scientist I find stuff like the graphs on the last page so irritating because it takes so long to dismalntle that it doesn't even feel like it's worth the time. It takes all of 20 minutes to create bad science. It takes hours to discredit it, because that requires good science, and that assumes people will actually take the time to read it. Which they probably won't, because if they had the ability to distinguish good science from bad science they wouldn't have been bamboozled in the first place.
It's also irritating to me because this kind of "agenda science" is almost unilaterally promoted by people who don't seem to have the slightest chops in scientific method. Which makes it a pita to argue with them in the first place, but moreover it just reeks of that armchair quarterbacking as well, where someone only looks at the most exciting part of the game and assumes they could do everything because they think they understand that one thing.
I mean most of everything on the previous page could be invalidated by reviewing the PRESS scores of the models, which Mind Detective hinted at. But for that statement to even have any meaning I would have to give a few years a stats courses.
1). Jontron is half Iranian, which is just kind of funny in context
2) As a scientist I find stuff like the graphs on the last page so irritating because it takes so long to dismalntle that it doesn't even feel like it's worth the time. It takes all of 20 minutes to create bad science. It takes hours to discredit it, because that requires good science, and that assumes people will actually take the time to read it. Which they probably won't, because if they had the ability to distinguish good science from bad science they wouldn't have been bamboozled in the first place.
It's also irritating to me because this kind of "agenda science" is almost unilaterally promoted by people who don't seem to have the slightest chops in scientific method. Which makes it a pita to argue with them in the first place, but moreover it just reeks of that armchair quarterbacking as well, where someone only looks at the most exciting part of the game and assumes they could do everything because they think they understand that one thing.
I mean most of everything on the previous page could be invalidated by reviewing the PRESS scores of the models, which Mind Detective hinted at. But for that statement to even have any meaning I would have to give a few years a stats courses.
Who's putting words where, again? I've been asking for your opinion, and you're happily dodging the question and telling me what I'm asserting.
GasBandit
Staff member
You've asked me, basically, three times, "just say you're a racist already" and no, I am not a racist. I've now overexplained myself. Other people in the thread get it. You can, too!
I've been looking for you to take any stance at all in the interest of being able to actually engage with anything you're arguing - since that's obviously not going to happen, I'll stop wasting my time.
GasBandit
Staff member
No, you were looking to bamboozle me into taking a stance that one culture is "better" than another, when that isn't my position and is irrelevant. The only position I've taken here is that it has yet to actually be shown that Jon Jafari is a racist, as I said. People just seem to ache to find a witch to burn.
So you're saying she followed him around and they got into a fight?
From your 2nd link:
Of course the pdf is edited badly...
But it kind of contradicts your "clarification".
Oh noes, that totally doesn't have any parallels to that other situation!
Ok, it's been a while, but i recall hearing the statement that Rich Blacks commit more crimes then any Whites... which your chart clearly disproves.
Sure, here, enjoy: http://www.romanialibera.ro/actuali...a-franta-pentru-intoleranta-si-rasism--376673 http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-diaspor...-rasist-impotriva-romanilor-lansat-italia.htm
In my experience, people who don't bother looking things up when you tell them, won't change their tune if you post sources anyway.
But hey, here's what 5s on google turned up: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36656348
And on another related note, what's 600 to 700 over 200? What, you really though i wouldn't notice how you ignored MJ back there? And that's just one of Spidey's girlfriends...[DOUBLEPOST=1491316008,1491315784][/DOUBLEPOST]
Now this is just funny considering what i said above...[DOUBLEPOST=1491316142][/DOUBLEPOST]
So what is his stance on fixing black culture then? Because if he also asserts it's just culture at fault, then surely he's in favour of reforming it for the sake of the people corrupted by it.
GasBandit
Staff member
No, there was an fight, she went to the garage, got a gun, and came back.
You're quoting the defendant's testimony. I quoted the court's findings.
Goalposts. You've changed the situation. Before it was the Treyvon Martin shooting, now you're linking his arrest for aggravated assault on his girlfriend. Same guy, different situation, and also noteworthy that she dropped charges and lifted the restraining order on him. Not that Zimmerman isn't a violent tool.
No, the statement in question is Rich Blacks/Poor whites.
Now you're just trolling. You know quite well I can't read Romanian.
Some people are assholes. That's a given anywhere. But note how that article talks about the concurrent upswell of solidarity and support for Poles in the British community - which obviously is portrayed as a good thing, supported by the culture. The post-Brexit attacks on Poles are vilified, not celebrated.
Still a drop in the bucket comapared to violent crime incarceration. But now you've got me curious, Spider-Man's girlfriends represent controlled substances? What drug is Gwen Stacy? I'm guessing Felicia is Cocaine.
It was not used in that context, it was being used to disprove that the higher crime rate of black people compared to white people was rooted only in economic causes.
Just one thing... i was quoting the text in your links... if you wanted me to see the court's findings, you should have linked to them instead.
Which is still not supported by that graph... i mean we're seeing the same one, right?
Hey, remember when trolling meant more then just being an ass on the internet?
I don't know, what's the drug that kills you if you stop it too suddenly? Alcohol, i guess...
Implying economic causes don't affect culture? See: chavs, or Die Antwoord;
GasBandit
Staff member
The findings *were* in the link. It summarized the defendant's claim as part of the process of issuing its findings.
Yeah, it kinda is.
That wasn't implied at all, and is a massive non sequitur.
Oh right, it's in one of the foot notes of the 1st link... i tend to disregard those. I blame school.
Anyway, the fact that the appeal judgement says the jury was wrongly instructed about the burden of proof is still enough to show a difference between how her and Zimmerman where treated by the courts.
I literally held a ruler to the graph, and the 10 for black people is only higher then 2 of the poor white ones, which are also lower then all the other ones (one hispanic is the same as the higher one). Unless you mean rich blacks commit more crimes then a few, specially selected whites, it really doesn't.
Also, why are there no 10's for the Hispanics?
Then what other factors would there be that make black people more prone to crime?
GasBandit
Staff member
That is definitely NOT something you can do in a court/legal document
That's quite a rhetorical leap.
You're only taking the richEST 10%, because it suits your narrative. Try comparing the top half of the black to the bottom half of the white. Or even the top third to the bottom third.
That, I couldn't tell you. I guess none of the top 10% of Hispanics in their study ended up in prison. I didn't much worry about it since it wasn't pertinent to the discussion.
You're trying to change the argument. The argument put forth was that economic disadvantage was the sole cause of crime. Literally states as "you could eliminate crime by deporting all the poor people." The data shows that not to be the case. The data does NOT show that economics have no effect on culture, nor does it postulate the cause for the higher crime rate among black Americans. You're trying to frame the argument in a way that puts me as using that chart data to illustrate a cause, instead of an effect.
Nigger, nigger, nigger...
Relax guys, it's just something we do on the internet... it's like saying asshole.
....
And of course now i have to address the old stuff:
Saying you're just talking about the effect is dishonest.
Relax guys, it's just something we do on the internet... it's like saying asshole.
....
And of course now i have to address the old stuff:
Or, you know, because it completely negates there being some innate element to it (unless you argue that money can change genetics / your brain by proximity), so one can dismiss the idea that this is some sort of actual difference between "races".
And effect of what? You can't separate cause and effect IRL.
Saying you're just talking about the effect is dishonest.
PewDiePie said "nigger" during a stream this weekend, so it makes some sense. It's back in the news and stuff.
Dude, i posted the n-word trice, in big font... maybe take a hint or something.