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[Espy]

Okay, for the record, this cliche story predates Disney and Fern Gully. Just saying.

Of course it does but one mentions the most relevant to the individual/era.
If every time someone talked about story cliches I interrupted and said, "Hrmph! Actually... if you knew your story and archetype history you would refer to the Epic of Gilgamesh but I can see you are not an educated individual" then sipped my brandy and adjusted my monocle others might think I was a total tool.

They would be wrong of course, I would actually be very, very cool. :smug:

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

a monocle wearing, brandy-drinking, cigarette smoking baby, eh? This is what happens when parents don't spank.

 

[Jake]

I hope not! And I don't think so either.

http://io9.com/5431490/what-comes-after-avatar-more-avatar

 

[North_Ranger]

Watched it yesterday. 3-D doesn't really work so well when at the same time you have to try and read subtitles - or maybe I'm just unused to the whole concept - because I came out with a bad case of headache. But yes, the visuals were breathtaking, even though after a point you didn't really 'see' the whole awesomeness anymore because of the heavy dollops of scenery porn already thrown at your eyes. The story... not so spectacular, but better than I expected. Not so Mighty Whitey as I had feared, even though the whole Na'vi-human interaction seemed like they had taken commercial and missionary activity in Africa and replaced the black people with giant smurfs.

To be honest, before I went to see this film I thought the animals were just weird-looking for weirdness' sake. You know, six legs, four wings, organic USB ports... but as the movie went on, I began to see how the whole world seemed to fit together in a biological fashion. You could really see them fitting together in their habitat. Although I'm still not really convinced how on earth you could get a place like the Hallelujah Mountains to form?

 

[fade]

Yeah, yeah, it's an old story. I brought up Fern Gully specifically because it was even closer to the plot of that movie than the general story.

 

[Silver Jelly]

seemed like they had taken commercial and missionary activity in Africa and replaced the black people with giant smurfs.

Yes, everybody here says "indians", but I see them as blatant racist black stereotypes... but I didn't want to say anything becuase then I might me the one accused of racism! ( I've always had the suspicion, though, that the stereotypes regarding black people are different in Europe and in the US.)

 

[Espy]

I see them as blatant racist black stereotypes...

How exactly? They are tribal which isn't unique to "black" culture nor is it racist, they have an "mother earth" sort of spirtuality that isn't unique to "black" culture nor is it racist, their faces had features similar to many races including animals like cats so that would be hard to pin as "racist" or "black sterotypes". Did I miss the watermelon eating and rap concert scene?

 

[Silver Jelly]

I see them as blatant racist black stereotypes...

How exactly? They are tribal which isn't unique to "black" culture nor is it racist, they have an "mother earth" sort of spirtuality that isn't unique to "black" culture nor is it racist, their faces had features similar to many races including animals like cats so that would be hard to pin as "racist" or "black sterotypes". Did I miss the watermelon eating and rap concert scene?[/QUOTE]

They look like blue cat-like Watusi... The clothes, the hair, the taller-stylized frame, I don't know... They made me think of the "stereotypical" african tribesman turned blue.

Of course, the stereorype of black people I'm familiar with doesn't include Watermelon. And Rap just in a very marginal way.

 

[Espy]

I see them as blatant racist black stereotypes...

How exactly? They are tribal which isn't unique to "black" culture nor is it racist, they have an "mother earth" sort of spirtuality that isn't unique to "black" culture nor is it racist, their faces had features similar to many races including animals like cats so that would be hard to pin as "racist" or "black sterotypes". Did I miss the watermelon eating and rap concert scene?[/QUOTE]

They look like blue cat-like Watusi... The clothes, the hair, the taller-stylized frame, I don't know... They made me think of the "stereotypical" african tribesman turned blue.

Of course, the stereorype of black people I'm familiar with doesn't include Watermelon. And Rap just in a very marginal way.[/QUOTE]

Even if they had strong similarities to African tribesman how would that be racist? Racism is a hatred or intolerance of another race or other races, and using a REAL type of people to base a fictional type that you spend the movie glorifying hardly sounds like racism at all and again, it can't be stereotyping because as far as I can tell there are many, MANY other sort of tribe people similar to the Navi' than merely african ones.

 

[Silver Jelly]

Well, I find the "good savage" kind of character to be a racist stereotype... Not the "real" traits of existing cultures used to imagine a fictional one, but the simplification and amalgamation of a kind of people to be a part of a stereotype. As it's based on race, I called it "racist". Maybe I should have said "Racial"?

 

[Espy]

I understand your point but I personally feel like it takes some real stretching to get there. I just don't see it in this movie.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Dammit I missed the moment where you hit 2112 posts, espy.

 

[Espy]

Huh? Oh! We have post counts back! Huh.


Whats so important about 2112?

 

[North_Ranger]

Well, the hologram pictures of Dr Augustine's school for Na'vi children just made me remember back to my elementary school days when we would have missionaries back from Africa giving presentations and showing pictures of the schools they had set up there. The only difference between those pictures and the ones in Avatar was the blue skin and the number of tails... But that's just me. *shrugs* Otherwise I don't think there's any one "native" group onto which you could slap some blue paint and growth hormones and say "Lookie, we's got Na'vi!".

BTW, was I the only one who visibly flinched when Colonel Quaritch grabbed Sully's bond-braid/head-cable/tentacle-widget with his mecha hand and yanked? Judging by what was seen earlier, I thought that must have felt like somebody had grabbed your johnson with a pair of pliers and pulled. Augustine had warned Sully "not to play with it or [he]'ll go blind", if you know what I mean. And whenever Jake and Dr Augustine are held captive, the Na'vi are holding them by the braids.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Huh? Oh! We have post counts back! Huh.


Whats so important about 2112?

It's just my favorite Rush song, is all. Well, one of them anyway.

 

[Espy]

Oh! DUH! Rush! Of course! I knew that...

 

[Silver Jelly]

I understand your point but I personally feel like it takes some real stretching to get there. I just don't see it in this movie.

No prob. I didn't feel offended in any way watching it, but I was sure I would come in here to find everybody bitching about this and I was surprised it didn't happen.

 

[North_Ranger]

It was interesting, though... I mean, I never considered eating chicken or watermelon as particularly "black" activities. For most people of my generation and in here the stereotypical black person is a Somali refugee, not a rapper, a gangbanger or a chicken-dish connoisseur.

 

[Silver Jelly]

It was interesting, though... I mean, I never considered eating chicken or watermelon as particularly "black" activities. For most people of my generation and in here the stereotypical black person is a Somali refugee, not a rapper, a gangbanger or a chicken-dish connoisseur.

In my context, it's more or less the "savage" stereotipe from the XIX century or the reaction to this stereotype (the "good savage"). Fried Chicken, Watermelon, Cotton or being lazy are not traditionally associated with black people around here, as far as I know. Were all these racist features maybe originated in the US?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I didn't see much overt racism in the movie at all. There were some broad strokes with the whole idea of the white guy uniting and saving all the dirty savage heathens, but as I said, the strokes were really broad. I was more offended by the lazy storyline and shitty script tbh

 

[Hansagan]

Am I the only person who got a real 'World of Warcraft' vibe from the movie? He had a Night Elf character that started off completely useless, gradually gained powers and abilities, got his mount, then his flying mount, then his epic flying mount.

Also, he became addicted, lost the ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy, forgot to shower and eat, and (kinda) had cybersex.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

The scarred marine is his dad

 

[Espy]

The scarred marine is his dad

I... don't think so.

 

[ElJuski]

I mean, we could get pissy about what I said and consider that "elitist" somehow. Just saying, people should consider how old (and tired) the cliches in the film are.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

The scarred marine is his dad

I... don't think so.[/QUOTE]

No, in the WOW analogy. He's all like STOP PLAYING THAT GAT DAMN VIDJA GAME AND COME HUNTING WITH ME

 

[Espy]

The scarred marine is his dad

I... don't think so.[/QUOTE]

No, in the WOW analogy. He's all like STOP PLAYING THAT GAT DAMN VIDJA GAME AND COME HUNTING WITH ME[/QUOTE]

AH. Gotcha.

 

[Silver Jelly]

Am I the only person who got a real 'World of Warcraft' vibe from the movie? He had a Night Elf character that started off completely useless, gradually gained powers and abilities, got his mount, then his flying mount, then his epic flying mount.

Also, he became addicted, lost the ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy, forgot to shower and eat, and (kinda) had cybersex.

That's got to be the best interpretation of the film EVER.

 

[Iaculus]

Funnily enough, it was one I shared. As I put in my Facebook update immediately after seeing the film a week ago, 'Sweet mother of Odin, James Cameron has been playing waaay too much World of Warcraft'.

 

[Jake]

I mean, we could get pissy about what I said and consider that "elitist" somehow. Just saying, people should consider how old (and tired) the cliches in the film are.

I saw it more in the vein of modern mythology. Myths aren't supposed to have clever plot twists and whatnot. They're built almost entirely out of cliches and simple, larger than life characters.

 

[@Li3n]

I mean, we could get pissy about what I said and consider that "elitist" somehow. Just saying, people should consider how old (and tired) the cliches in the film are.

I saw it more in the vein of modern mythology. Myths aren't supposed to have clever plot twists and whatnot. They're built almost entirely out of cliches and simple, larger than life characters.[/QUOTE]

Sorrry dude, but it was like they chose the story from a hat, it was so by the numbers.

And myths aren't build out of clichés, they make them...

 

[North_Ranger]

Technically, you are both correct. First myths being oral, a rather simple, formulaic plot would be easier to remember than a convoluted one with many twists and turns.

And yes, myths are pretty much the oldest collections of clichés.

 

[@Li3n]

Gilgamesh would like to have a word with you...

 

[ElJuski]

I mean, we could get pissy about what I said and consider that "elitist" somehow. Just saying, people should consider how old (and tired) the cliches in the film are.

I saw it more in the vein of modern mythology. Myths aren't supposed to have clever plot twists and whatnot. They're built almost entirely out of cliches and simple, larger than life characters.[/QUOTE]

Okay, I can see where you're coming from. But that still has to be done *right*, and I don't think they were going for "myth" or cliched tropes--the outstanding general aside. It was just a boring movie that tried too hard to hit on "contemporary" politics while "blowing us away" with great tech.

There are great examples of where the boring cliches and stories can be done well. Every once in a while a good horror film takes those contrivances and turns it into something delectable.

 

[Kovac]

Hollywood blockbuster Avatar repeats \"negative stereotypes\" about indigenous people, a Maori academic says. ...

Taonui said the \"rhythmic body swaying\" of the indigenous people during a ceremony only appeared in \"B-grade movies\" and \"just doesn't happen in any indigenous population\".

He said the male members of the blue-skinned Na'avi population were stereotypical depictions of indigenous people.

\"The indigenous men were not very good when it came to sorting out the problems. They just grunted. That contradicts history,\" he said.

I have seen the complaint that the film overuses the cliche of the noble savage but this is the first I have picked up on complaints of negative stereotypes. Of course just about any complaints over lack of realism in regard to how indigenous people have behaved in the past can be dismissed with, 'it's a fictional story set on another planet with aliens'

SOURCE

 

[Hailey Knight]

We saw it. The general consensus is pretty accurate, and whether the story works for you is going to differ from person-to-person. While it's not a very deep story or a surprising one, it IS a solid story that works.

In that regard, loved it.