Bayonetta, and sexism in modern games.

[Ravenpoe]

So, yeah... I'm pretty late to this party. I game on a budget, so sometimes I don't get to play the cool games until a year after they come out. because of this, I bring you...

This is a spinoff from another thread! I always wanted my own spinoff.

Bayonetta is an action game from Platinum Games, and directed from the same guy to direct Devil May Cry, Viewtiful Joe, and Okami. Within the game, the titular character slinks around killing angels for a convoluted reason, and goes about it in a way that is both incredibly bad ass and dripping in sexuality. If you're familiar with past games from this studio, you know that over the top is the name of the game, and isn't meant to be taken seriously. But does portraying the game's heroine as a sexual person (note: she never has sex with anyone in the game, though she does pose a lot) and a stylized feminine form automatically make it sexist?

For those who haven't played the game, or need a reminder, here's the prologue cinematic.




AshburnerX managed to hit a lot of points that I agreed with, so here's a repost of what he wrote:

I think it really depends upon how they treat her sexuality. Bayonetta is in many ways a step forward, if you can believe it.

- Her limbs are exaggerated, but the rest of her is in proportion (and she actually has HIPS). She is slender, but also defined (I.E. her legs look powerful without turning in Chun-Li). She even has a more mature look, like someone in their mid-30's. Most developers are shy to break out of the mid-lower 20's.
- She doesn't move like a sultry stripper... but rather like a graceful dancer, showing off some surprising power.
- She drips sexuality, but she is THE MASTER of it, as opposed to having her sexuality defined by what she can do for others. I think the lollipop imagery shows this best: Most games would have given her large, phallic ones to play to the obvious. Instead, she has tiny, dum dum style lollipops... and STILL makes it look sexy.
- NONE of her relationships with the male characters revolve around romance or sex, but she is able to do this WITHOUT coming off as a frigid ice queen, which is often used in other stories to prevent reducing women into objects or tools... by completely removing their sexuality. She comes off as more bemused by Cheshire's antics: She acknowledges and even toys with his male sexuality, but doesn't use it to genuinely hurt him.
- There are few, if any, lesbian overtones to make up for the lack of male/female relationship, despite having a reoccurring female nemesis. This helps keep her from falling into the exploitation zone.

I mean really... Bayonetta may have lots of skin and imagery, but it was actually pretty mature about it. It could have been a lot worse.

Similarly, Tycho at Penny-Arcade wrote this during the game's release.

Because every buckle, every decoration, every insignia is placed with such care, I started to wonder about where exactly the line was between something that is exploitative and something that is epitomized. When you look at something like Marcus Fenix, and I said something as opposed to someone on purpose, there is the same exaggeration that borders on mutation in his physical structure. But since Marcus Fenix is a man, his physical virtues are an acceptable template for such extrapolations. If a woman is the subject, and is thus interpreted, now you're engaged in a truly dangerous enterprise. There's something very strange simmering below that assertion, and it's weirding me out. I was glad to see Leigh Alexander discussing the same thing in her article, because now I seem kind of smart by association.

There's all kinds of cheesecake bullshit that people try to get away with, particularly in popular media - I'd never say this wasn't the case. People are understandably very sensitive about this kind of thing. Manipulation of human beings via the female form is more or less de rigeur. This established, would we be able to distinguish between such manipulation and an authentic creative statement? Bayonetta more or less says no.

Penny Arcade - His Most Recent Superpower

As a funny note, Bayonetta's character is so damn long that it's hard to find an image that shows her full figure.


So, is Bayonetta sexist? And if so, is it any more sexist than the super macho hyperbole that goes into male action-game characters? Is it worse when a female character is exaggerated, and if so, wouldn't that itself describe some sort of unequality, and thus, sexism? I'm interested to hear what people's take on this is. While I may be late to the game, I still think it's an interesting discussion.

 

[AshburnerX]

I think more people are sensitive to female exaggeration because it's tied into female exploitation as a whole, which has a history as long as the written word and still touches some people's lives today. They are more watchful and critically of it when they perceive it because it's something that is often downplayed by a lot of people.

However, I don't think it's sexist because Bayonetta is actually empowered by her femininity without rejecting the masculine and because her sexuality isn't commented on by others in the story all that much (In fact... isn't the only one who says ANYTHING about it that skeevy mafioso?). Most stories about powerful women ether end up with them heeling to men ether by choice or necessity (which makes the story sexist AND misogynist) or rejecting them completely (which usually makes the story exploitative, unless it walks a very fine line), but Bayonetta manages to avoid the usual pitfalls and I think it's one of the best works involving women because of it.

 

[Espy]

I don't "know" if Bayonetta the game is "sexist".

I promise you she's designed solely to, ahem, titillate male players so... *shrug*

 

[AshburnerX]

I don't "know" if Bayonetta the game is "sexist".

I promise you she's designed solely to, ahem, titillate male players so... *shrug*

True, but I think they put enough care into it that she doesn't fall into the usual moe blob style that is so prevalent these days.

 

[Iaculus]

Moeblob is not the only form of objectification.

It's worth noting that the game's creator actually intended to parody the excessive fanservice present in modern games, and was rather surprised and upset when Bayonetta ended up getting Rule 34'd anyway. Hopelessly out-of-touch with reality, then, but at least his intentions were pure.

 

[AshburnerX]

Moeblob is not the only form of objectification.

True, but it is BY FAR the most prevalent type, especially in games out of Japan.

It's worth noting that the game's creator actually intended to parody the excessive fanservice present in modern games, and was rather surprised and upset when Bayonetta ended up getting Rule 34'd anyway. Hopelessly out-of-touch with reality, then, but at least his intentions were pure.

So he essentially pulled a Lady Gaga, and it had the exact same result? I'm beginning to wonder if people are no longer able to read subtext these days...

 

[Ravenpoe]

I don't "know" if Bayonetta the game is "sexist".

I promise you she's designed solely to, ahem, titillate male players so... *shrug*

While a part of that is true, I think it does a great disservice to the artists who worked on this game to say her character design is purposed -only- to be appealing to male gamers.

Her character design is very complex, very detailed and very carefully crafted. She has one of the most unique silhouettes in gaming, and though her body is impossibly exaggerated (those legs would mean she's part giraffe), it's done so in a way that, subjectively, seems less blatant than the usual big-chested baby-faced japanese game heroine.

Yes, she's designed to be beautiful. But is that sexist, or to visit the inverse, is it only possible to have a non-sexist heroine if the character is fugly?

 

[Iaculus]

It's worth noting that the game's creator actually intended to parody the excessive fanservice present in modern games, and was rather surprised and upset when Bayonetta ended up getting Rule 34'd anyway. Hopelessly out-of-touch with reality, then, but at least his intentions were pure.

So he essentially pulled a Lady Gaga, and it had the exact same result? I'm beginning to wonder if people are no longer able to read subtext these days...

Hey, you present the world with a bundle of ridiculously over-the-top sexy, people are going to get turned on. It's basic biology.

 

[checkeredhat]

I don't even get how people can argue she is designed to be attractive. She's so incredibly out of proportion she's outright ugly to look at. Her head is tiny and he legs are 2/3s of her body. Its taken to such a grand extreme the only way I can justify it is by accepting it as a PARODY of exactly the type of thing you're talking about.

Also I played the demo for that game and hated it.

---------- Post added at 04:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 AM ----------

Moeblob is not the only form of objectification.

It's worth noting that the game's creator actually intended to parody the excessive fanservice present in modern games, and was rather surprised and upset when Bayonetta ended up getting Rule 34'd anyway. Hopelessly out-of-touch with reality, then, but at least his intentions were pure.

Ah, see I hadn't known that, but I chose to believe that was what was going on for my own sanity.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Also I played the demo for that game and hated it..

I didn't really make this thread to discuss the gameplay, but... damn, you and I must be playing different games!
(Of course, I never played the demo, it could be it sucks. The game is amazing though.)

 

[AshburnerX]

I don't even get how people can argue she is designed to be attractive. She's so incredibly out of proportion she's outright ugly to look at. Her head is tiny and he legs are 2/3s of her body. Its taken to such a grand extreme the only way I can justify it is by accepting it as a PARODY of exactly the type of thing you're talking about.

Her head seems a bit smaller than average to account for the fact that her hair is absolutely MASSIVE. Besides, most (Japanese) female game characters have absolutely HUGE heads that make their head-to-torso ratio more in line with what you'd have with children (About 2 to 1). This is intentional, for the most part, as Japan idolizes youth. Bayonetta's ratio (not including the hair) is more like 2.5-3 to 1, which is actually much more appropriate for an adult woman.

 

[figmentPez]

Am I the only one who thinks that Bayonetta is creepy and off-putting? Tiny little head (though that is worse in concept art than in the actual game) and freakishly long legs. Yeah, I know long legs are supposed to be sexy, but there's long and then there's inhuman.

 

[AshburnerX]

Am I the only one who thinks that Bayonetta is creepy and off-putting? Tiny little head (though that is worse in concept art than in the actual game) and freakishly long legs. Yeah, I know long legs are supposed to be sexy, but there's long and then there's inhuman.

Yeah, the arms and legs are VERY exaggerated. There is no denying that. I just think they hit some people harder than others... I've never had the same problem with the Uncanny Valley that some people do (or at least not as severe), so my tolerance may just be higher.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Also I played the demo for that game and hated it..

I didn't really make this thread to discuss the gameplay, but... damn, you and I must be playing different games!
(Of course, I never played the demo, it could be it sucks. The game is amazing though.)[/QUOTE]

The demo is part of Chapter 1 of the game, so no, it kicks ass. My fiancee went out and purchased it the day after we played the demo.

 

[checkeredhat]

Her head seems a bit smaller than average to account for the fact that her hair is absolutely MASSIVE. Besides, most (Japanese) female game characters have absolutely HUGE heads that make their head-to-torso ratio more in line with what you'd have with children (About 2 to 1). This is intentional, for the most part, as Japan idolizes youth. Bayonetta's ratio (not including the hair) is more like 2.5-3 to 1, which is actually much more appropriate for an adult woman.

Thanks, but I know proportions too. I'm not comparing her to Japanese games. I'm comparing her to real life. Her head is about the size of her hand, which makes it way too small. average proportions, your hand should just about cover your face. Which leaves about a third of your head height. Its closer to real life proportions than japanese games, but you're the one who mentioned those, not me. I don't even play many Japanese games. Not distinctly Japanese games with the type of proportions you're suggesting anyway.

(Not to mention her torso to leg ratio, which is exaggerated even beyond what fashion designers do, or her freakish arm length)

---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

Am I the only one who thinks that Bayonetta is creepy and off-putting? Tiny little head (though that is worse in concept art than in the actual game) and freakishly long legs. Yeah, I know long legs are supposed to be sexy, but there's long and then there's inhuman.

I'm with you.

 

[AshburnerX]

This would be a lot easier to discuss if we had a full body shot of her finished model, instead of using her concept art (which IS more off putting and even more exaggerated than the finished model). The 3D model isn't quite so bad about the proportions.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Ask, and ye shall receive.

 

[AshburnerX]

In that image, the hands are more in proportion... I doubt she could cover more than her face with one. She still has the arm/leg issue, even if it's not as bad as in the concept art, and the head one seems a bit less pronounced.

 

[Null]

It's still a hell of a lot better than anything from, say, Team Ninja. When I get a system that it's on, I will be getting this game.

 

[figmentPez]

In that image, the hands are more in proportion... I doubt she could cover more than her face with one.

She could set her palm on her chin and her fingertips would reach past her hairline.

 

[AshburnerX]

Maybe that just doesn't seem odd to me because I can do the same thing. *shrug*

 

[Telephius]

Maybe that just doesn't seem odd to me because I can do the same thing. *shrug*

You know what they say about men with big hands?....they can reach past their hairline.