North_Ranger
Staff member
Massive 8.9 earthquake and tsunami devastate Japan
- Thread starter Tress
- Start date
I use Firefox with adblock plus and no script and between those two I never have to watch the youtube ads.
Or make all revenue go to whatever Aid Japan Fund there is.
GasBandit
Staff member
What advertisements....?
Added at: 16:37
Ohhh that explains it. Heh. I don't even use noscript, just adblock plus it seems is enough.
GasBandit
Staff member
Re: the gundam picture I posted earlier. Turns out... that photo is not a recent one, but was actually taken over a year ago during a dismantling accident.
My bad.
My bad.
Well, Taiwan for one is fine. We had a tsunami alert for three hours after the quake hit Japan, and many areas along our eastern coast were evacuated.
In the end though, the wave that hit us was 12 centimeters (approximately 5 inches) tall.
There's not as big a backlash against the unnecessary evacuation as I'd've imagined, though. Guess most people here appreciate the "better safe than sorry" approach.
There was a tsunami advisory for much of vancouver island today though I live on the eastern coast of the island, the one facing mainland Canada, so it didn't really cover much of where I am and was later called off without any thing happening.
Tragic what happened over in Japan. I had heard about the nuclear plants possible failure earlier this morning and then had to go to work and hadn't heard much else about them during. Considering the tv in the break room was on news reports all day about the quake and tsunami, I was suprised not to hear much else about them until I got home and looked into it myself. I hope that they re able to get them under control as I can only imagine how much worse the situation would be if something further went wrong at the plants.
As far as I'm aware they've have been shut down and are in the process of cooling. There seems to be reports of radiation spikes in the area but I'm not entirely sure how valid those claims are.
Tragic what happened over in Japan. I had heard about the nuclear plants possible failure earlier this morning and then had to go to work and hadn't heard much else about them during. Considering the tv in the break room was on news reports all day about the quake and tsunami, I was suprised not to hear much else about them until I got home and looked into it myself. I hope that they re able to get them under control as I can only imagine how much worse the situation would be if something further went wrong at the plants.
As far as I'm aware they've have been shut down and are in the process of cooling. There seems to be reports of radiation spikes in the area but I'm not entirely sure how valid those claims are.
figmentPez
Staff member
Some reports are saying that the reactor is in serious trouble:
Japan warns of meltdown at quake-hit plant: Kyodo
"Authorities said that there was a high possibility that nuclear fuel rods at the reactor of Tepco's Daiichi plant may be melting or have melted, Reuters reported, citing Jiji news."
Japan warns of meltdown at quake-hit plant: Kyodo
"Authorities said that there was a high possibility that nuclear fuel rods at the reactor of Tepco's Daiichi plant may be melting or have melted, Reuters reported, citing Jiji news."
There has been a blast post-earthquake and it looks like the reactor could be going in to full meltdown.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12720219
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.nuclear/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12720219
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.nuclear/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
It's a boiling water type reactor. A steel pressurized reactor vessel (which is inside the containment building) holds the fuel rods, control rods, etc. The control rods are below the fuel rods, so in theory if the fuel rods do melt, then they melt down into the control rods which slow (but won't completely stop) the reaction.
Water circulates around the fuel rods, and this water is inside the pressure vessel and circulation system, and is not allowed to escape, to avoid radiation leakage. However, if this water is pressurized too high, then the pressure vessel and circulation system could explode.
Yesterday they released some of this water into the atmosphere as steam to prevent a much larger explosion that would result if they didn't relieve the pressure. It is this steam that has caused the radiation detectors, and a few people, to test as radioactive, and it's why that radiation has fallen back down - they relieved the pressure and stopped releasing the steam once the pressure was within safe limits. The radiation that was released was minimal on the scale of things.
I suspect that they started pumping sea water directly on the pressure vessel inside the containment building, and that they didn't have adequate means of draining the building, let alone enough venting so the pressure inside the containment building didn't get too high. Once the water hit the reactor, it steamed up, and pressurized the containment building, and eventually it failed.
From the articles, it sounds like radiation has not increased appreciably since the containment building fell, which indicates the pressure vessel is still intact. And, in fact, it should be a lot easier to cool the reactor core from the outside.
As long as they can cool it enough to keep it from melting down too much, and they can get the regular cooling system back online, then things will be fine.
If they can't cool it fast enough for long enough, then a meltdown will cause a large-scale environmental disaster, however it is unlikely that it would be as bad as chernobyl. Not only did Chernobyl NOT have a containment building to start out with, they did not bleed off the excess pressure inside the pressure vessel quickly enough, and it exploded, sending all sorts of radioactive material into the air. As long as they release the pressure at this plant as needed, and keep pumping cool water in to replace the water lost as steam, then they should be able to prevent an explosion, and even if radioactive steam is released it will be significantly less radioactive than a pressure vessel breach.
The fact that they blew up the containment building indicates that either someone made a really bad mistake (not just a poor choice) or that the situation is so bad that they are pulling out all the stops. The "dust" from the "explosion" is more likely to be the huge amount of steam that was contained in the building before it failed, along with some real dust and debris. It's not a small thing, though. In the US the containment building itself, by regulation, must be able to withstand the impact of a fully loaded passenger jet without breach.
The pressure vessel has concrete walls that are measured in meters of concrete and steel thick. If it does go into full meltdown, and they can't control the heat, then the explosion that results will be astonishing, and radiation detectors worldwide would be going off, depending on the air currents. The fuel will be liquid by that time, which will make it easier to disperse aerially. The fuel load of these reactors is in the area of 150 tons of Uranium, which is about a speck of uranium per person on the planet.
Unfortunately that thick concrete and steel pressure vessel also makes it harder to effectively cool it from the outside, so they have to get the regular cooling system online as quickly as possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_Nuclear_Power_Plant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_Water_Reactor
Water circulates around the fuel rods, and this water is inside the pressure vessel and circulation system, and is not allowed to escape, to avoid radiation leakage. However, if this water is pressurized too high, then the pressure vessel and circulation system could explode.
Yesterday they released some of this water into the atmosphere as steam to prevent a much larger explosion that would result if they didn't relieve the pressure. It is this steam that has caused the radiation detectors, and a few people, to test as radioactive, and it's why that radiation has fallen back down - they relieved the pressure and stopped releasing the steam once the pressure was within safe limits. The radiation that was released was minimal on the scale of things.
I suspect that they started pumping sea water directly on the pressure vessel inside the containment building, and that they didn't have adequate means of draining the building, let alone enough venting so the pressure inside the containment building didn't get too high. Once the water hit the reactor, it steamed up, and pressurized the containment building, and eventually it failed.
From the articles, it sounds like radiation has not increased appreciably since the containment building fell, which indicates the pressure vessel is still intact. And, in fact, it should be a lot easier to cool the reactor core from the outside.
As long as they can cool it enough to keep it from melting down too much, and they can get the regular cooling system back online, then things will be fine.
If they can't cool it fast enough for long enough, then a meltdown will cause a large-scale environmental disaster, however it is unlikely that it would be as bad as chernobyl. Not only did Chernobyl NOT have a containment building to start out with, they did not bleed off the excess pressure inside the pressure vessel quickly enough, and it exploded, sending all sorts of radioactive material into the air. As long as they release the pressure at this plant as needed, and keep pumping cool water in to replace the water lost as steam, then they should be able to prevent an explosion, and even if radioactive steam is released it will be significantly less radioactive than a pressure vessel breach.
The fact that they blew up the containment building indicates that either someone made a really bad mistake (not just a poor choice) or that the situation is so bad that they are pulling out all the stops. The "dust" from the "explosion" is more likely to be the huge amount of steam that was contained in the building before it failed, along with some real dust and debris. It's not a small thing, though. In the US the containment building itself, by regulation, must be able to withstand the impact of a fully loaded passenger jet without breach.
The pressure vessel has concrete walls that are measured in meters of concrete and steel thick. If it does go into full meltdown, and they can't control the heat, then the explosion that results will be astonishing, and radiation detectors worldwide would be going off, depending on the air currents. The fuel will be liquid by that time, which will make it easier to disperse aerially. The fuel load of these reactors is in the area of 150 tons of Uranium, which is about a speck of uranium per person on the planet.
Unfortunately that thick concrete and steel pressure vessel also makes it harder to effectively cool it from the outside, so they have to get the regular cooling system online as quickly as possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_Nuclear_Power_Plant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_Water_Reactor
At least one family who experienced the Christchurch earthquake then moved to Japan in time to get hit by this earthquake as well.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/japan-earthquake/4762603/Jo-flees-NZ-quake-for-Japan-ordeal
So basically, once they get things in order it's fine and it'll be smooth sailing... but getting to that point is going to take a lot of work done correctly and quickly.
Didn't you know? They're not funny even when they're off-duty from their crappy show. Herp derp.
North_Ranger
Staff member
Okay, I forgive Family Guy for a lot, but the Da-Cow bit and this? Fuck it.
North_Ranger
Staff member
An episode about beef... and a reference to Dachau.
On one hand, I don't intend to scare monger, but on the other hand, it's a very serious situation. They have an analysis of the containment building explosion:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.nuclear.quesions/index.html?hpt=T1
Which suggests that they were, in fact, pumping water directly into the containment building, hoping to cool the reactor down a bit. Rather than it being a steam explosion, though, the sea water reacted with some other materials inside the building, generating hydrogen gas, which then led to the explosion.
They are relatively certain that reactor 1 (460MW) has at least one or more fuel rods that have melted, and they have reason to believe now that reactor 5 (780 MW) is suspected of having a partial meltdown as well. At the time of the earthquake, only three of the 6 reactors at this site were operating, so it's very unlikely that the three idling reactors would have a problem. If it were just the earthquake, or just the tsunami, they would likely have been fine (the plants go into automatic shutdown when an earthquake is sensed). But the earthquake caused the reactors to go into shutdown (meaning the power plant can't supply its own power - needed to run the cooling pumps) and the subsequent tsunami shut down the diesel generators that were keeping the pumps going. They don't note which other reactor was running, but if it was #6 (1GW) then hopefully they've got that one well under control. It's a later design, but they were all built in the 1970's, and #6 is particularly large.
While all of this is alarming, keep in mind that the worst nuclear power plant disaster we've ever had can only be linked directly to about 30 deaths from radiation poisoning (workers sealing the reactor away in concrete), and while some hundreds of birth defects, and thousands of cancers may be attributable to the Chernobyl accident (mostly related to the workers and their families - very few civilians were affected), the overall effect of this japanese plant failing catastrophically would be a mere fraction of the death and destruction that the earthquake and tsunami have caused. Not that this makes it any better, but I think a sense of scale is important when you're discussing potentially scary things. Also it's important to note that while the workers suffered the most, we've progressed to the point where the workers are being protected far more than they were at the time of the chernobyl disaster.
Not a good thing to have happen, but not something worth losing any sleep over.
Added at: 23:31
Notably, Japan has moved by about 8 feet. (All your GPS street maps are now off by 8 feet!)
Further, the axis of the earth was shifted by about 4 inches (10cm).
For a mass of stuff that's nearly eight thousands miles in diameter, shifting the entire axis of the planet is no small feat, even if it's only 4 inches.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.nuclear.quesions/index.html?hpt=T1
Which suggests that they were, in fact, pumping water directly into the containment building, hoping to cool the reactor down a bit. Rather than it being a steam explosion, though, the sea water reacted with some other materials inside the building, generating hydrogen gas, which then led to the explosion.
They are relatively certain that reactor 1 (460MW) has at least one or more fuel rods that have melted, and they have reason to believe now that reactor 5 (780 MW) is suspected of having a partial meltdown as well. At the time of the earthquake, only three of the 6 reactors at this site were operating, so it's very unlikely that the three idling reactors would have a problem. If it were just the earthquake, or just the tsunami, they would likely have been fine (the plants go into automatic shutdown when an earthquake is sensed). But the earthquake caused the reactors to go into shutdown (meaning the power plant can't supply its own power - needed to run the cooling pumps) and the subsequent tsunami shut down the diesel generators that were keeping the pumps going. They don't note which other reactor was running, but if it was #6 (1GW) then hopefully they've got that one well under control. It's a later design, but they were all built in the 1970's, and #6 is particularly large.
While all of this is alarming, keep in mind that the worst nuclear power plant disaster we've ever had can only be linked directly to about 30 deaths from radiation poisoning (workers sealing the reactor away in concrete), and while some hundreds of birth defects, and thousands of cancers may be attributable to the Chernobyl accident (mostly related to the workers and their families - very few civilians were affected), the overall effect of this japanese plant failing catastrophically would be a mere fraction of the death and destruction that the earthquake and tsunami have caused. Not that this makes it any better, but I think a sense of scale is important when you're discussing potentially scary things. Also it's important to note that while the workers suffered the most, we've progressed to the point where the workers are being protected far more than they were at the time of the chernobyl disaster.
Not a good thing to have happen, but not something worth losing any sleep over.
Added at: 23:31
Notably, Japan has moved by about 8 feet. (All your GPS street maps are now off by 8 feet!)
Further, the axis of the earth was shifted by about 4 inches (10cm).
For a mass of stuff that's nearly eight thousands miles in diameter, shifting the entire axis of the planet is no small feat, even if it's only 4 inches.
Dave
Staff member
W
Wasabi Poptart
Keehi Small Boat Harbor is about 1.5 miles from my house. They don't have estimates on the damage yet because there are so many boats in the water and debris from the pier that needs to be cleaned up.
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14238003
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14238003
Well, good thing we didn't break the 10 feet threshold, or otherwise we'd be freezing to death or burning up!
/obscure?
Well if it's obscure it takes no time to resolve: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldwfw1mECv1qzium9o1_500.jpg
I assume that is to what you were referring, anyways.
I assume that is to what you were referring, anyways.
North_Ranger
Staff member
Actually, this was a false duck according to some later reports. One of the GPS markers had shifted eight feet because of the earthquake. The whole island nation hasn't shifted, just the marker.
figmentPez
Staff member
Well, it was more than just the marker, but not the entire island:
Earthquake causes Japan's coastline to move as much as 13 feet, tilts Earth's axis 10 inches: Report
fade
Staff member
That'd be me.
8.9 is large, but at the same time, an 8.9 earthquake at a major convergent plate boundary is, like the NZ quake, unsurprising. At least Japan has developed a weak early warning system. I mean, Japan itself exists because of the upward trickling of molten subducted plate. It's a volcanic island arc. Early warning is difficult anywhere though.
One thing I was happy to see in the media this time was an actual explanation of magnitudes. Hollywood needs to take notes. The Richter magnitude is a logarithm base 32, so that a magnitude 5 quake means roughly 32 to the 5th Joules of energy released. Which means that each magnitude is actually 32 times greater than the previous. Though honestly the Richter magnitude is terribly outdated and woefully inaccurate outside of Southern California. "Internally", we usually use the moment magnitude scale. Long story short, though, it was nice to see acknowledgement that there's a HUGE difference between a 7 and an 8.
J
Jiarn
I think it's safe to say the Earthquake was NOT the major cause of damage in Japan.
Well the tsunami didn't start itself, now did it?
And they probably would have been able to save a lot of people if the epicentre wasn't so close to the island and they had more warning of the tsunami.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/volcano-so...struggles-earthquake-20110313-081017-634.html
Cripes, like an earthquake, a tsunami and TWO potential nuclear meltdowns weren't enough.
Cripes, like an earthquake, a tsunami and TWO potential nuclear meltdowns weren't enough.
An excellent writeup on the nuclear plant situation, including awesome pictorial diagrams, which should serve well to correct my mistakes and poor assumptions, and should set everyone's mind at ease concerning the possibility of glowing:
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/
Upshot - Yes, things didn't go as well as they would like, but the radiation that was released is of the fast decaying type (on the order of seconds for a half life), and was is very low levels (even if you are close to the plant, it's not more than you'd get from an 8 hour plane flight from solar radiation), and there's no possibility of significant radioactive release due to the the reactor design and the multiple levels of safety and protection.
Very interesting information.
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/
Upshot - Yes, things didn't go as well as they would like, but the radiation that was released is of the fast decaying type (on the order of seconds for a half life), and was is very low levels (even if you are close to the plant, it's not more than you'd get from an 8 hour plane flight from solar radiation), and there's no possibility of significant radioactive release due to the the reactor design and the multiple levels of safety and protection.
Very interesting information.
Okay, I'm not sure what Japan did... but they need to apologize for it right away.