So there's this Occupy Wall Street protest in Manhattan today
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
- Start date
Dave
Staff member
I've made this point elsewhere to little or no avail so I'll make it here as well.
OWS will never work until they find their voice and consolidate their message. The "I am the 99%" is a great start as it's easy to remember and relate to, but it's also fairly new. Hopefully they are learning.
Not sure if posted elsewhere here, but the "official" release about their grievances ranged everywhere from economic inequality to the better treatment of animals.
This is long and cut-n-paste so I'm spoiling it.
A couple days ago I was listening to NPR and they interviewed a person at the protest. He was dressed as a zombie to show how the ultra-rich are voracious and insatiable eaters of wealth. During the interview he spoke like a zombie, moaning things like moooore! and it's never enough! And by saying he talked like that for the interview I mean the whole fucking interview!! He sounded like a fucking idiot and that's how people view the protests!
People dressed in tie-dye, sleeping in the parks, wearing masks, spouting internet memes without a coherent message. That's what they are doing. They are squandering an opportunity.
The worst part, though? They are protesting in the wrong place. What Wall Street is doing is not illegal in any way! Maybe it's morally reprehensible to those on the bottom, but they didn't make the rules! Protesting at Wall Street does NOTHING!! Wall Street is taking advantage of the rules and laws set forth by Congress. If they are doing things that are illegal it's because regulatory services have been gutted. These people need to go to Congress to protest. We need Corporations to no longer be considered people. We need campaign reform. We need financial regulatory commissions who have people to investigate, teeth to be able to get things done, and the political will to be able to back these commissions up. We need to stop balancing the budget (or profess to because they just don't) on the backs of the poor. Tax the ultra rich back to the level that they used to, quit cutting social/education programs and quit shifting the blame on the poor.
OWS will never work unless they get their shit together. But I don't see it happening.
OWS will never work until they find their voice and consolidate their message. The "I am the 99%" is a great start as it's easy to remember and relate to, but it's also fairly new. Hopefully they are learning.
Not sure if posted elsewhere here, but the "official" release about their grievances ranged everywhere from economic inequality to the better treatment of animals.
This is long and cut-n-paste so I'm spoiling it.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited from the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited from the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.
A couple days ago I was listening to NPR and they interviewed a person at the protest. He was dressed as a zombie to show how the ultra-rich are voracious and insatiable eaters of wealth. During the interview he spoke like a zombie, moaning things like moooore! and it's never enough! And by saying he talked like that for the interview I mean the whole fucking interview!! He sounded like a fucking idiot and that's how people view the protests!
People dressed in tie-dye, sleeping in the parks, wearing masks, spouting internet memes without a coherent message. That's what they are doing. They are squandering an opportunity.
The worst part, though? They are protesting in the wrong place. What Wall Street is doing is not illegal in any way! Maybe it's morally reprehensible to those on the bottom, but they didn't make the rules! Protesting at Wall Street does NOTHING!! Wall Street is taking advantage of the rules and laws set forth by Congress. If they are doing things that are illegal it's because regulatory services have been gutted. These people need to go to Congress to protest. We need Corporations to no longer be considered people. We need campaign reform. We need financial regulatory commissions who have people to investigate, teeth to be able to get things done, and the political will to be able to back these commissions up. We need to stop balancing the budget (or profess to because they just don't) on the backs of the poor. Tax the ultra rich back to the level that they used to, quit cutting social/education programs and quit shifting the blame on the poor.
OWS will never work unless they get their shit together. But I don't see it happening.
OWS will never work until they are ready to burn Wall Street to the ground. History has shown time and time again that the only way to make the Rich actually give in to your demands is to make them fear for their lives or their livelihood. Right now they simply have no incentive to do anything.
OWS doomed from the start.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/oct/02/occupy-wall-street-99-per-cent
Mark Ruffalo (yes, that Mark Ruffalo) wrote a nice piece about it.
Mark Ruffalo (yes, that Mark Ruffalo) wrote a nice piece about it.
K
kaykordeath
This can not be said enough. I also heard the zombie interview and got the douche-chills just listening.
I've seen at least 2 instances of "celebrity supporters" (Susan Sarandon and former governor Patterson) both showing up and then replying afterward that they thought the message being conveyed was "still being worked on."
A friend suggested that maybe this generation needs its own Abbie Hoffman.
K
kaykordeath
Then there's this:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/05/opinion/rushkoff-occupy-wall-street/
That being said, you make the trip, I got a couch with your name on it, Dave.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/05/opinion/rushkoff-occupy-wall-street/
I'd like to think I'm tuned in enough to the "Internet-era" that I GET the references...but that doesn't mean they carry any weight. This is certainly an idealistic opinion. I'd like to hope there's some merit in it, but, so far, everything that seems to be coming from OWS is insubstantial and meaningless. "We want things to change" has no real teeth on its own...
That being said, you make the trip, I got a couch with your name on it, Dave.
Dave
Staff member
Sure, because blowing up unemployed 20 year olds is sure to get our government up in arms.
GasBandit
Staff member
Oh, Dave, you surprise and delight me. I mean, *I* know these doofs are nothing but human detritus and would not be missed if somebody just walked down the street with a flamethrower, but to hear you acknowledge them as such also... well, it takes a chisel to a little of the cardiac permafrost.
Dave
Staff member
I don't think that they are anything of the sort. I just agree that since they are not as involved in the political/economic infrastructure as those in power, they are not viewed as being important. So keep that heart of yours frozen.
GasBandit
Staff member
It doesn't matter what they are or are not involved in, it only matters that they're Americans. And to some, it only matters that they're squishy and screamy when 'sploded.
And really, if you don't think there'd be a huge national outcry of all political persuasions if someone were to publicly juice even a mere half dozen or so protesters, you're fooling yourself.
Dave
Staff member
See, terrorists wouldn't want to take these guys out. Taking them out would do nothing more than to feed America's insatiable socio-military hunger. The lives themselves would be nothing more than fodder to grease the wheels of war. We wouldn't even remember their names in a couple months. Just like the 9/11 victims. Sure, the families remember them, but nobody else does unless they are special cases. In this case the terrorists would be better off infiltrating the movement and causing mayhem to incite a war between the haves and the have nots...
GasBandit
Staff member
If they thought this way, there'd be no terrorism, ever.
Are you saying 9/11 wasn't effective terrorism, and if given the chance they would not do it again? Of course you weren't, but it does illustrate the contradiction in what you just said.
That ignores the true, underlying motivation of the terrorist footman - it's not really focused on long term societal evolution - it's focused on killing and frightening the infidels. It's what every Palestinian dancing in the street said 10 years ago - "now the americans will feel the fear and violence that we've felt all along."
Besides, it doesn't have to be a foreign terrorist, either. It could be one of these right-wing "bitter clingers" the administration's been warning us about for 3 years. What'd make a more inviting target for a guns'n'god reactionary 'murrican home grown terrorist than the largest commie-hippie sit-in in decades?
Our government is already using our 20 year olds as terrorist targets in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Dave
Staff member
Only the ones who aren't born into rich families.
GasBandit
Staff member
Didn't know we'd reinstated the draft. How could I miss that?
Right on! It's absolutely unacceptable to think that soldiers who join the military voluntarily should ever be put in harm's way! There's got to be something in the constitution about the illegality of exposing soldiers to combat!
Of course there's no draft exactly, but the system certainly does its part to push poor, undeducated, never-going-to-college young men and women to the army as their best case scenario.
"Dear Armed Forces: You are likely in the military because you are too poor and/or stupid to have any other options in life."
You know, I don't think anyone would be terribly surprised to find that more financially less well off people take advantage of the great benefits the military gives to it's enlisted, there's probably some stats out there that show it.
Of course my personal experience is that the Armed Forces are made up of a very wide variety of people from all backgrounds but like I said, I haven't seen the stats.
Of course my personal experience is that the Armed Forces are made up of a very wide variety of people from all backgrounds but like I said, I haven't seen the stats.
Dave
Staff member
It's been studied. Charlie and I are totally right.
I just....I can't buy it. It's the military! Of course you might die! Those guns aren't just for show.
No one forces you to join the military, and if you do, why shouldn't there be incentive to do so? Should the benefits be less than stellar? Should you give less reason for the poor to join? Should it be more like "Please, go throw yourself in the meat grinder, but don't expect anything for it, because we wouldn't want you to feel compelled to join!"
Should you force the rich to join?
I honestly don't know what some of you want in regards to the military, being voluntary already as it is.
No one forces you to join the military, and if you do, why shouldn't there be incentive to do so? Should the benefits be less than stellar? Should you give less reason for the poor to join? Should it be more like "Please, go throw yourself in the meat grinder, but don't expect anything for it, because we wouldn't want you to feel compelled to join!"
Should you force the rich to join?
I honestly don't know what some of you want in regards to the military, being voluntary already as it is.
When the policy makers and their class are able to influence politics and use of the military, but are not forced to share in the responsibility and sorrow of it's use, it raises questions of the ethics of their actions.
Well, the military could be more honest and upfront with their recruiting. And offer more psychological counseling so being in the army isn't life-destroying torture.
They'd have to stop their advancement bias against people seeking psychological help first. This, of course, will never happen.
I know that, that's why I said it would be neat to see how that would in a country so big.
It was called the draft. There is research on it. It wasn't 100%, but it should tell you what you want to know.
Also - surprise! When we actually had the draft, the rich and powerful could get out of it, too.