So there's this Occupy Wall Street protest in Manhattan today

D

Dubyamn

Adammon said:
Or more succinctly "Those homeless people are getting in the way of our anti-poverty message."
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More like those homeless people are causing unsanitary conditions, bringing drugs into the park and assaulting the protestors so maybe the police should do their job and protect the public.

Also can I say how seamlessly you shift your stream of bullshit? At first it was "Protestors are dirty disgusting people" Then I point out that the conditions are an easily seen outcome from the police's new tactic of sending the most unstable people into the park and then refusing to remove them despite the clear threat to the peaceful protestors you shift to "Look at those protestors looking down on the homeless people who come in and make the place a more dangerous and dirty place" and I can't say exactly where this shift took place. I look forward to your future bullshit.
 
strawman

strawman

Dubyamn said:
When they send homeless people there and then refuse to remove them from the park... yes yes it is.
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The police normally encourage homeless people to go to shelters, etc, right? Why shouldn't they point out to the homeless that a makeshift soup kitchen has also set up in the park? Why should the police remove them? If you were an officer, what would you tell a cold, hungry homeless person two blocks from OWS right now? How would you tell the difference between the homeless and the OWS? What would you do once you figured out that there's a homeless person in the OWS - move in by yourself and attempt to eject them from the park? What if the protestors filmed you and posted it online as an example of someone being unlawfully ejected from a "peaceful" protest?

So, what would you do differently?

The homeless didn't move into OWS turf.

The OWS moved into the homeless' turf.
 
Adam

Adam

The only one making a logical leap here is you.

1) It's "Only the homeless people" that are the bad ones. Apparently homeless people carry large amounts of heroin on them for resale.
2) Those homeless people are causing unsanity conditions. Because bringing together 20,000 people with no facilities isn't unsanity. But the 20 homeless people they added make it so.
3) It's the police's fault for sending unstable people into the park. From what I've read, they're not doing it out of malice; only that "Hey, there's people willing to support you in the park, maybe you should go there." I guess they thought wrong.

And finally, "Look at those protestors looking down on the homeless people." The only person looking down on the homeless people here is you, my friend.
 
D

Dubyamn

Adammon said:
The only one making a logical leap here is you.

1) It's "Only the homeless people" that are the bad ones. Apparently homeless people carry large amounts of heroin on them for resale.
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Yeah cause unsanitary conditions, an uptick in assualts and attempted rapes is just an unthinkable outcome when you send the homeless to gather in one place.

2) Those homeless people are causing unsanity conditions. Because bringing together 20,000 people with no facilities isn't unsanity. But the 20 homeless people they added make it so.
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Love how you know exactly how many homeless people there are at OWS. 20 people only 20 homeless people are at OWS.

And yeah the city agreed with the protestors only a few weeks ago that conditions were satisfactory what with the cleaning that OWS is doing and the cleaning crews that they have hired.

3) It's the police's fault for sending unstable people into the park. From what I've read, they're not doing it out of malice; only that "Hey, there's people willing to support you in the park, maybe you should go there." I guess they thought wrong.
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Yeah that's why the police sent the homeless there. They had such deep respect for the OWS protestors. They never even considered that it might be a bad thing to send 20!!!! unstable people to a protest that they had been trying to shut down for weeks. No no it sounds perfectly reasonable that they thought it was a good idea to send the homeless to a place were they would be under the care of the OWS protestors and not people trained and driven to help the homeless.

And finally, "Look at those protestors looking down on the homeless people." The only person looking down on the homeless people here is you, my friend.
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The homeless have my eternal pity. They are out there for numerous reasons not a single one of which is them being a bad person.

However they are unstable and in many cases dangerous so the police sending them (20!!!) into the protest to people who aren't equipped or trained to deal with them is nothing more than a complete douche move from the police. I suspect you know this and you don't give a crap because it allows you to spew your bullshit.
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

stienman said:
The homeless didn't move into OWS turf.

The OWS moved into the homeless' turf.
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Not getting in the middle of this, really,but Zuccotti park is not "homeless' turf", it's a small publicly-accessible but privately-owned park in front of one of the larger luxury office buildings in lower Manhattan. It's not Central Park or Washington Square or Herald Square or anything even remotely like that. It's really small, and apparently now really crowded and unsanitary.

It is not an official shelter, with shelter facilities, health code ratings, medical/housing protocls, or inspection schedules (even on paper). It doesn't even have the benefit of being an actual building. It would be irresponsible and potentially quite dangerous for the NYPD to intentionally direct homeless people, who often have need of actual medical care, food, and social services, to that park as opposed to an actual shelter, or even a much larger park.

I'm honestly shocked that you think they should do that.
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Necronic said:
Why are you complaining? You got your wish and now you say you didn't want that to happen?
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Just pointing out the cause and effect. If something similar would have happened at a Tea Party protest, they'd have taken to the streets in rage instead. It's an instigating factor: If you feel the authorities aren't taking you seriously and then they exercise force against you, you feel obligated to retaliate. It's something all Law enforcement should have learned by watching the Iraq and Afghanistan occupations.
 
Covar

Covar

The irony in Dubyman's post and in these stories involving the OWS and the homeless is just delicious.
 
strawman

strawman

Just to clarify, are you saying that if the homeless were not present, then the rapes, drugs, and violence would not have occurred, and therefore the police are indirectly to blame for the rapes, drugs, and violence?
 
strawman

strawman

SpecialKO said:
I'm honestly shocked that you think they should do that.
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I'm not recommending that they do - quite frankly I'm skeptical about these reports that the police are encouraging homeless to go there. But I am saying that while I don't think they should do that, I don't see any particular problem. The shelters are full. The soup kitchens are full. The OWS protesters are setting up an encampment that can supply some - not all - of the basic needs of a population the OWS claims to be protesting for - in part.

If they're sending violent homeless, bleeding homeless, etc then they are not properly assessing their needs, or the ability for OWS to support them.

But to flat out say the police shouldn't send people who need help to a public park where other people are providing that help is silly.

"Hmmm, a homeless person who is obviously hungry. There's a public place two blocks away where they can get warm and eat, but instead I'm going to ignore their needs and not say anything - survival of the fittest, I say - or point them in the direction of the same soup kitchen they've been turned away from 20% of the time due to overcrowding. Those OWS folks shouldn't be burdened by the poor and indigent - they got their own thing going, and they should be protected from the less seemly parts of our fair city."

Is the line of logic really shocking?
 
D

Dubyamn

stienman said:
Just to clarify, are you saying that if the homeless were not present, then the rapes, drugs, and violence would not have occurred, and therefore the police are indirectly to blame for the rapes, drugs, and violence?
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I'm saying that the deteriorating conditions in the park stem directly from the fact that the police send unstable people into the park and then refuse to police them.

So yes I believe that several to most of the cases of violence, unsanitary conditions and drugs are linked to the police.

You're right it's probably more hypocrisy than irony.
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"The system really let that guy down, I hope he doesn't beat the shit out of me" is the low low bar for hypocrisy now?
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
After all, aren't the homeless part of the 99% after all? So why should they be excluded from the park and the food and whatnot?
 
Adam

Adam

GasBandit said:
After all, aren't the homeless part of the 99% after all? So why should they be excluded from the park and the food and whatnot?
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Only the non-violent, non-stinky, non-drug dealing ones.
Added at: 11:24
http://www.metro.us/newyork/local/a...g-crime-at-occupy-wall-street-goes-unreported

“Instead of calling the police, they form a circle around the perpetrator, chastise him or her and chase (them) out into the rest of the city — to do who knows what to who knows whom,” Bloomberg said.

He called protesters who keep quiet “despicable.”

The mayor’s criticism comes after the arrest of kitchen worker Tonye Iketubosin, 26, for allegedly groping an 18-year-old protester on Oct. 25. Iketubosin is also suspected of another alleged rape in the camp, Bloomberg said.

Police Commissioner Paul Browne said protesters delay reporting crime because it is “OWS protocol not to report such incidents to the police until there were three complaints against the same individual.”
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OWS Smarties!
 
Krisken

Krisken

I prefer to see the rise in violence in the park as a sign of things to come, brought on by exactly what the protests are about. This is where increased income disparity leads us, and it will only get worse as people feel more and more ignored, especially by the people supposedly representing them.

Love the snark in the thread so far. Some of you should make it your thing. ;)
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Krisken said:
... the rise in violence ... [is] a sign of things to come ... and it will only get worse as people feel more and more ignored, especially by the people supposedly representing them.
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See, when *I* start saying things like this, people start joking about my sanity. WHO'S LAUGHING NOW, BATMAN? HEE HEE HEE HA HA HA HAAAAA HA HA Haaaaa...
 
Krisken

Krisken

GasBandit said:
See, when *I* start saying things like this, people start joking about my sanity. WHO'S LAUGHING NOW, BATMAN? HEE HEE HEE HA HA HA HAAAAA HA HA Haaaaa...
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Yes, except I'm not saying it will bring about the apocalypse. I'm saying that a little violence only accentuates the point of the protesters, it doesn't contradict it. I'm also not saying that it has to be people in power who have to be hurt/removed to make change.
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Krisken said:
Yes, except I'm not saying it will bring about the apocalypse. I'm saying that a little violence only accentuates the point of the protesters, it doesn't contradict it. I'm also not saying that it has to be people in power who have to be hurt/removed to make change.
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So let me be sure I have this straight. You are saying the violence will get worse, but that it will solve the problem?
 
Krisken

Krisken

I'm not saying it is the answer to the problem. :p
Violence is the byproduct, not the tool.

And holy crap, Adammon, that is frightening. As I've always said, fringe lefties are just as weird as fringe righties.
 
Adam

Adam

Krisken said:
I'm not saying it is the answer to the problem. :p
Violence is the byproduct, not the tool.

And holy crap, Adammon, that is frightening. As I've always said, fringe lefties are just as weird as fringe righties.
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Except fringe righties are usually armed and dangerous. Fringe lefties are stoned and FAB-U-LOUS.
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

"Hmmm, a homeless person who is obviously hungry. There's a public place two blocks away where they can get warm and eat, but instead I'm going to ignore their needs and not say anything - survival of the fittest, I say - or point them in the direction of the same soup kitchen they've been turned away from 20% of the time due to overcrowding. "

Is the line of logic really shocking?
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Um, yes, sending homeless people, or any people with specific medical needs or potential social/mental problems that need to be addressed, to any public gathering on the assumption said gathering will sufficiently feed them, provide for their physical health and safety, and otherwise take care of them is a shockingly illogical, presumptuous, and irresponsible line for a police officer to walk.

You might as well tell them to hang out around hot dog stands because someone might feed them.

The only way that makes any kind of sense at all would be if the OWSers were openly advertising those services as available to anyone who needs it.

EDIT: It's just as "survival of the fittest" as not doing anything, only now you've done enough to officially not give a shit because it's someone else's problem.
 
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