Echo chambers, pushing away members, stifling discussion, etc

[Bubble181]

Since this discussion was derailing the Funny Pictures thread, but I still wanted to give my opinion, I thought, hey, new thread. If they feel so inclined the admins can move a bunch of the posts from there over to here.

Anyway, while the definition of an "echo chamber" is one thing, I absolutely agree with Gas that there's a lot of groupthink here, and it drives away people with dissenting opinions - either away from HF in general, or from the political forum at least. I have myself left this place at least twice over the years - the fact that I've come back each time may just mean I'm a masochist.
I have been told - not in private conversations, but plain out in the open - on here that I deserve to die, that I'm "as bad as or worse than" a sexual predator, I've had disease and pain wished upon me, and I've been told my depression isn't real and "maybe I should just listen to my mind". Some of those are quite a while ago, admittedly. Some aren't*. And, not to be too blunt, but none of those threats or insults have come from the right wingers on this forum. I may disagree on a LOT of things with TommiR or @lien, or steinman. I'm not saying none of them have ever said anything horribly offensive and equally bad to others (e.g. towards trans or non-binary people) - they definitely have, just not to me personally. All of the above have come from the supposedly "open" and "tolerant" side of the community.

Some of the people on the right on this board have moved towards the left - I'm one of them! - and some have moved from the left to the right, some have mellowed with age, some have hardened. But yes, there very much is a general consensus of what sort of thought or opinion is acceptable - and anything within those limits is ok, and everything outside of a certain range is not. Fair enough if you limit that unacceptable range to literal Nazi's, perhaps, but...we've long passed that point. The moral center on this board is probably closer to that of Tumblr than to that of actual America.

*I never really had time to come back to that discussion and re-launch it, but there's a reason I explicitly asked if people really meant all landlords or just slumlords/profiteers. Nope, really, all landlords everywhere. Well, ok, thanks, guess I'll go die. I could put forth a whole post with numbers about home ownership in various countries, the way renting is looked at in different cultures, how a good landlord can actually be beneficial for young starters, and so on, but apparently nope, just owning a second property instantly turns you evil enough to warrant literally being told to your face you deserve to die and have no redeeming features. And that wasn't met with "whoa, aren't you exaggerating?" but with "yeah, those scummy soulsuckers, they are evil!". So...Yeah. Thanks.

 

[Ravenpoe]

So since I'm pretty sure I'm the one that started the landlord thing, I'll respond. AFAIK I never said landlords deserve death. I said all landlords are morally in the wrong and because of this you can feel morally justified in punching them. Which I would hope would be seen as hyperbole (the punching part, at least, I don't actually wish violence on anyone.) If anyone else jumped on that bandwagon with death threats then obviously that's pretty bad, but I still hold to the idea that being a landlord is, well, also bad, and for reasons I've already stated. Profiting off of inequality is evil, because the capitalistic society we exist in is evil and built around that very same idea. Does that mean I think you, Bubble, are personally evil? No. I too have to partake in this system because we all have to if we want to continue living, but over the years I've partaken less in it. In the grand scheme of things it won't make an ounce of difference, but it helps me sleep at night.

So when I say all landlords are bad, I mean it. The same way I mean it when I say all cops are bad. Does that mean there are no cops that earnestly believe in the system and want to do good? Well, yes it does, because those cops will eventually discover the system they are in is corrupt and meant to protect corporate interests, and will then either become the bad or no longer be a cop.

 

[GasBandit]

And from there it's just a small step to "all business owners are bad," and from there to "all private property is bad..."

The whole "echo chamber" thing reminds me very much of something I saw about Tumblr a few weeks back:

There's a feedback loop going on around here that distorts the perception of what normal is. If you don't want to call it an echo chamber, fine, whatever - but there's definitely a sheltered self-reinforcing version of groupthink.

 

[Tinwhistler]

I think the board, as a whole, trends more liberal. That said, we've had more conservative leaning members as well. Every now and then, someone will post one of those political quizzes that plots you on a spot on a political map--and while there are trends, there is also a lot of variation.

That said, I tend to disagree with some views espoused on the board. This is unsurprising, because I tend to plot very close to center (though leaning slightly left) whenever those kinds of quizzes come up. I'm not much of a 'joiner' when it comes to groupthink, so I have various positions that put me at odds with both the left and right. I'm bisexual. I like guns. I think police are just people doing a job that neither deserve all of the hate they receive from some quarters, nor the adoration from others. And, for what it's worth, I have no problem with landlords--I see it as any other capitalist endeavor.

I think communism is a laudable ideal that sucks balls in practice. Like it or not, money makes the world go round, and I see being a landlord no worse or no better than any other profit-taking business. Every time money changes hands, some bit of extra ends up in the pockets of someone. Banks take interest. Stores have mark-ups. Landlords gotta cover their own costs plus some profit.

Now, that said, Any profit-taking endeavor is ripe for abuse. From bad landlords, to bad employers, to profiteering in the retail sector during war time or (as recently) a pandemic. I am aware of that, and see those abuses as bad and areas ripe for regulation. But I don't buy into the slippery slope that because some percentage of "X" is bad that all "X" is bad--unless that percentage crosses some nebulous threshold in my brain.

All of that said: I don't argue much in here (I guess unless you want to talk shit about Lady Gaga) . It's not why I'm here, and I won't jump into a lot of debates except to (usually) occasionally make a factual statement that makes no representation on my moral feelings on the subject. I do tend to agree with Gas that the board does trend toward a certain set of ideals that may not reflect what you'd find if you walked into a huge restaurant and took a random poll.

 

[Ravenpoe]

And from there it's just a small step to "all business owners are bad," and from there to "all private property is bad..."

The whole "echo chamber" thing reminds me very much of something I saw about Tumblr a few weeks back:
View attachment 40354

There's a feedback loop going on around here that distorts the perception of what normal is. If you don't want to call it an echo chamber, fine, whatever - but there's definitely a sheltered self-reinforcing version of groupthink.

My views certainly aren't reinforced here. If anything I'd imagine my views are considered further on the edge here.

 

[Tress]

I still remember during the summer of 2020, when a lot of the George Floyd protests were going on, me complaining about how there were gangs robbing people and setting fires in random neighborhoods around here. They were taking advantage of the police being occupied with protests.

And what was the response I got on here? Being told that me and my neighbors probably deserved it because the person (falsely) assumed I live in a white neighborhood. And somehow any violence was justified?

That was the closest I’ve come to leaving this place for good. The constant, self-righteous left wing circle jerk in the politics sub forum is toxic as hell. It’s definitely a handful of people loudly proclaiming that anyone who doesn’t share their exact views can fuck off. Oh, sorry… I mean “get punched in the face” because that makes it okay?

 

[Tinwhistler]

Oh, and my feeling is that anyone wishing harm, death, disease or vitriol on another member really needs a time out for a while, sooner rather than later, because that shit really does hurt feelings and cause ill will.

 

[Krisken]

"Somebody said something awful to me here, so this place is an echo chamber" is a fascinatingly broad brush to paint with.

 

[PatrThom]

I do not feel like this is an echo chamber.
I do feel like our sample size is too small to be a microcosm of the world at large.
I also feel like our population will trend towards a mix of people who either a) tolerate each other or b) have similar interests/goals, so the climax population of the board will ultimately be a group of people who (mostly) agree with each other on whatever topic(s) "win" the attrition process plus some others who might not but who will tolerate those topics and/or people.
So I guess it could get there, someday. But I don't think it's there yet.

--Patrick

 

[blotsfan]

"all business owners are bad,"

 

[Dubyamn]

If we want to start having a bit more active moderation I can get behind that. Personal attacks really shouldn't be allowed and are toxic.

If we want to not have strong opinions or arguments here on the political subforum because it scares off people who would like to participate but can't deal with people on the internet disagreeing with them then I would say that's not a forum I have any interest in.

 

[Tinwhistler]

If we want to start having a bit more active moderation I can get behind that. Personal attacks really shouldn't be allowed and are toxic.

If we want to not have strong opinions or arguments here on the political subforum because it scares off people who would like to participate but can't deal with people on the internet disagreeing with them then I would say that's not a forum I have any interest in.

I have this feeling that most of us have grown up around each other here (you know, except for those of us who were already old when we got here), and could, perhaps, do the mature thing and express strong feelings about a topic without personal attacks. It just takes a little care in how you decide to come across to others. I consider pretty much everyone here a friend on some level. And I don't generally tell my friends to fuck themselves, jump in front of a bus, or wish death upon their children, ya know?

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I think the difference with Halforums compared to...well, most other places in the internet, is that most of us are intelligent enough or educated to understand a the idea of nuance. I might be one of the most left leaning among us (especially since I posted that chart and I I'm lefter than even the NDP). But I understand that as much as I dream of an ecotopia or other things, I understand that it's not even remotely that easy. And I think that's why it's different here than arguing on Reddit or Twitter or something. You get people like, say, Trump supports who couldn't find nuance if it shot them in the face. Here, at least. we've definitely disagreed, we've definitely argued, and we've definitely gotten loud and angry, but we seem to understand that there the world is weird and complicated and even solutions we think would fix the world wouldn't be that easy.

I'm honestly grateful that, for the most part, this place is free of personal attacks. Sometimes it gets messy, but it's usually in cases like where I'm emotional about other things in my life and I unnecessarily fly off the handle.

 

[Dubyamn]

I have this feeling that most of us have grown up around each other here (you know, except for those of us who were already old when we got here), and could, perhaps, do the mature thing and express strong feelings about a topic without personal attacks. It just takes a little care in how you decide to come across to others. I consider pretty much everyone here a friend on some level. And I don't generally tell my friends to fuck themselves, jump in front of a bus, or wish death upon their children, ya know?

Personally I believe that telling a friend to go fuck themselves is one of life's truest pleasures. But the fact that several people have stories of people crossing into truly hurtful territory makes me think that maybe people have gotten too familiar with each other. Like how family sometimes are the meanest people you interact with

 

[blotsfan]

Personally I believe that telling a friend to go fuck themselves is one of life's truest pleasures. But the fact that several people have stories of people crossing into truly hurtful territory makes me think that maybe people have gotten too familiar with each other. Like how family sometimes are the meanest people you interact with

Go fuck yourself