Question for the Science Geeks

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A biology question based on some ridiculous fiction I've experienced of late:

It's well established that a person or animal cannot spontaneously reshape a la the Wolfman or Jekyll and Hyde. My question is this: what is a realistic time frame for a large scale reconfiguring of an advanced animal? By "advanced", I mean something beyond single-cell organisms.

I ask purely out of curiosity, and promise that your answer will not be used by me in some variety of bad fiction in the future. Probably.
 
Terrifying, but not exactly what I meant. For example, if a person were to grow substantially taller, how long would be realistic for the body to actually produce the bone and muscle mass needed to support itself? Maybe the question cannot be answered
 
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Chazwozel

Terrifying, but not exactly what I meant. For example, if a person were to grow substantially taller, how long would be realistic for the body to actually produce the bone and muscle mass needed to support itself? Maybe the question cannot be answered

Really fast cell reproduction rates... also known as cancer.

The key, I guess, would be minimizing cell death because cell turnover in the human body is amazingly fast to begin with. Thing is cells all turnover at various rates in different tissues. Your heart muscle cells are notoriously slow, as well as neuronal cells. Your skin cells are amazingly fast at division.

You also have to understand that the whole process of "growing" takes a lot of energy. To grow from 6 feet to 8 feet, you'd literally be eating like a hotdog contest champ just to stay alive.
 
meristematic tissues, IE stem cells. if you could trick your body into producing them with the directions to make you taller you would begin to grow as all your parts began to laterally and vertically expand.
 
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Chazwozel

Wouldn't you have to worry about the bones being closed so not susceptible to further growth? At least in an adult.
I'd be more worried about the sheer mechanics of it all. Your bones would have to instantly be incredibly dense to support yourself. There's a point where if you get tall enough your heart has to increase in mass greater than what's proportional to its original size since it's fighting a hell of a lot more gravity to circulate blood.

People that are unusually tall have all sorts of bone and heart issues.
 
Even assuming that long term survival weren't a concern, it would still takes months to add any kind of height, right? Cancer notwithstanding, even growth spurts take a really long time.
 
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Chazwozel

Even assuming that long term survival weren't a concern, it would still takes months to add any kind of height, right? Cancer notwithstanding, even growth spurts take a really long time.

Human cells divide at inconsistant rates relative to each other, and even more so between different humans! Even "growth spurts" are highly controlled events on a genetic level. One person may grow several inches more in a year than another, even if you could somehow synchronize the start of the growth spurt. Really, if we fully understood how to unlock how an organism grows you could wire up cells to crank out mitosis in a matter of minutes. The real limiting factors are going to be how much energy is available and enzymatic rates. Another major factor would be how much energy is release during enzymatic reactions, if things are going to fast you could literally kill yourself from heat exhaustion. These are some of the reasons we can't grow super fast or grow to be 50 feet tall. This is a really, really loaded question.
 
I'm honestly not trying to be difficult. I just read/watch/play a lot of sci-fi/horror, and if nothing else is consistant, it's the "and then they mutated into giant beasts". Even just getting to, say, eight or ten feet tall would take months, if not years, of growth, and it always happens in days, if not instantly.
 
M

makare

I think it could presumed that if it could happen at all hypothetically it would take a long time. But story wise "he suddenly transformed into a giant!" is a lot more interesting than "Under the effect of various biological mechanics he became a giant over the course of three years."
 
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Chazwozel

I think it could presumed that if it could happen at all hypothetically it would take a long time. But story wise "he suddenly transformed into a giant!" is a lot more interesting than "Under the effect of various biological mechanics he became a giant over the course of three years."

This. It's all due to story pace and timing. (unless your story plot revolves around some wacky experiment that causes abnormal growth spurts and over the course of three years the protagonist triples in size).


HULK SMASH!!!!!!!!!!! .... in two years....
 
Yeah. Aside from the difficulty in programming the DNA (explaining to the various types of cells exactly what it is you want them all to do), your biggest limiting factors are going to be maturation/heat/logistics. When tissue grows, the cells within it have to first reach maturity so that they are capable of division, and they also need to plump up to a size large enough that the resulting cells have enough materials and such to continue living. Force a cell to divide too early and the resultant 'children' might not have enough genetic material to survive on their own.

Then there's the question of heat. Metabolism generates heat. Much like computer processors, that heat has to be thrown away somehow, or it will cook the organism. We do this through respiration, radiation, and evaporation, but it is highly doubtful that an organism could safely dissipate that much heat in a short enough amount of time if that organism isn't paper-thin and simultaneously submerged in a fast-moving stream of ice water or something.

Metabolism may be one of the more efficient forms of energy conversion known (as compared to internal combustion engines, for instance), but there's still going to be the question of how to keep all those cells fed, watered, and oxygenated. And even if you have somehow found a way to supply them with all of this, there's still the question of how you are going to remove all the waste generated during this process. A person who takes in enough material to grow 100lbs heavier is going to need to excrete a boatload each of urine and solid waste, not to mention a metric fuckton of carbon dioxide.

Yes, as a side issue there is still the problem of reopening the growth plates on the long bones to allow them to lengthen rather than just go acromelagic, but I figure if you're able to goose the cells into doing all of the above, then you also have the technology/knowledge of what to do to get them to regress to the point where they function again. And because bone tissue grows so slowly, it would probably be easier to add lots of muscle faster than you could change your skeleton. Keep in mind also that if I decided to alter myself to be 8 feet tall, I would then need to lose and regrow my teeth so they would be the proper size/shape (fangs). Your current teeth didn't change size when you hit puberty, they were replaced by bigger ones. (Edit:) This also applies to hair and nails. Even if your body grows in size or changes shape, they don't, so you're pretty much stuck waiting for them to grow out in their new size, or just outright sloughing them and waiting for them to come back as as fur/claws.

Plenty of interesting stuff on a similar topic (getting taller, at least) if you search for the ilizarov apparatus and its various offshoots.

--Patrick
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Then there's the question of heat. Metabolism generates heat. Much like computer processors, that heat has to be thrown away somehow, or it will cook the organism. We do this through respiration, radiation, and evaporation, but it is highly doubtful that an organism could safely dissipate that much heat in a short enough amount of time if that organism isn't paper-thin and simultaneously submerged in a fast-moving stream of ice water or something.
That's a good point. I read an article a while back about how a group is trying to breed chickens without feathers so that they can grow faster in tropical climates. Apparently heat is one of the limiting factors in chicken growth (and the reason they don't use growth hormones on chickens like they do cows).
 
It would only take a year to grow a foot, except that the extra foot would place addition burden on the heart which takes longer to change. With a rigorous schedule of exercise, however, I expect that even the heart will be able to cope with the changes over one year for one foot.

However, there are limits to height. The blood pressure at the feet increases according to height, so even if the heart is strong enough to create the necessary pressure, the blood vessels and veins would have difficulty maintaining that pressure. Similar problems would occur for other systems in the body (lymph nodes, cartilage, muscles, etc).
 
Don't teenagers grow substantially taller? I remember a cousin of mine grew a foot over one summer....
An uncle of mine did the grow from 5'4" when he graduated high school to 6'4" when he finished his freshman year of college.

I only got an inch taller after the 8th grade.
 
Tadpole -> Frog

Caterpilllar -> Butterfly

Metamorphosis is not uncommon in the animal kingdom, and hormones are central to these changes. Hell, puberty.
 
C

Chibibar

As a non science person but with odd imagination, is it possible that you can "force" a growth in a controlled environment (this is all pure science fiction and just throwing out random idea)

So we got couple of issues:

Heat - what about incubation chamber or something with cooling?
Food - would direct nutrient feeding the body at various entry (iv style also this might provide cooling in certain area of the growth)
Body sustainability - assuming we can trigger starting and stopping of growth I guess we use a really super computer to do this
 
I always wondered how the dinosaurs did it, I would love to see the phisiology of one of those mothers. the brontosaurs would be interesting(what are they calling it now, or what it really is?)
 
As a non science person but with odd imagination, is it possible that you can "force" a growth in a controlled environment (this is all pure science fiction and just throwing out random idea)

So we got couple of issues:

Heat - what about incubation chamber or something with cooling?
Food - would direct nutrient feeding the body at various entry (iv style also this might provide cooling in certain area of the growth)
Body sustainability - assuming we can trigger starting and stopping of growth I guess we use a really super computer to do this
Yes, growth can be forced. All growth is 'forced' in some way, as a response to some sort of stimulus. On its own, a cell will just keep living until its genetic material either fails (look up telomeres for more info) or it reaches some predetermined suicide condition (something called apaptosis). Apaptosis is (partly) the reason you don't just continually get larger and more massive until the day you die. In fact, cancer can be seen as the failure of this mechanism.

Being in a cold climate, underwater, or inside of some sort of incubation chamber (ie, an ideal environment, whether artificial or natural) will allow an organism to grow faster by being able to expend more energy without overheating, but still not in realtime as seen in TV/movies. The larger/more massive an organism is, the more heat it will generate that it will need to dissipate and the smaller the surface area it will have available to do so. Paradoxically, an environment which is too cold can actually slow growth, since metabolism/cell division is at its heart a chemical process, and chilling any chemical reaction will cause that reaction to slow down.

Feeding at certain specific key points would reduce the amount of blood vessels the body would need to create AND it would increase the amount of nutrients available to the organism, since the body would not have to rely solely on the nutrients absorbed in the digestive tract (it's not terribly efficient...which is why intestines are so long in the first place). An acquaintance in high school was in an automobile accident and was hooked up to IVs for a while, and she reported the interesting side effect that her nails grew long amazingly quickly as a result. Not exactly laboratory conditions (did they just grow because she was stuck in a hospital bed and couldn't run around and break one?), but until someone really does a scientific study, it's all anecdotal. Even if you do deliver a highly oxygenated and concentrated supply of nutrients, though, you still haven't solved the problem of eliminating the amount of waste generated AND you will still be limited to feeding the cells themselves only as fast as they can diffuse the nutrients across their individual membranes. Unless you are injecting nutrients directly into each individual cell, they will be limited by the speed of osmosis.

Starting/stopping is already handled, your problem mainly involves discovering the specific stimulus necessary to either tickle a process into starting or rein it in. The trouble lies in getting the quantity/sequence right. Give a teenager an overdose of growth hormone and . The trouble with switching these things off and on is that you have to tell all the cells what is going on. If only a few get the message, you don't get any changes. If I send the message "You are now an elephant!" out and successfully influence 500 million cells, that's still only 0.005% of the most conservative estimates of the total number of cells in the human body (estimates range anywhere from 10-100 trillion), or about a sixth of an ounce (4.5g) of a 200lb (91kg) adult (I've just converted approximately one teaspoon of your body into an elephant! Mwaa-hahahhahaaa!). Unfortunately, most of the chemical messengers (hormones and such) that the body uses to signal these sorts of things tend to be very fragile and short-lived, so they tend to be made onsite in order to be properly effective (this minimizes oxidation/malformation/decay). Most hormones are dumped directly into the bloodstream by whatever organ produces them. Cells then react by picking up these messengers, assuming there are enough to go around.

As a related aside, there is a big difference between hypertrophy and hyperplasia. Both of these are forms of unusual growth, but hypertrophy is the enlargement of individual cells (correct quantity of cells, just each one is larger) while hyperplasia is an unusually large proliferation of cells (each cell is the right size, but there are more of them). Both could result in, say, an abnormally large liver, but each is treated separately. This is why biopsies are so important. :)

Mind you, I'm no expert on the subject, it's just that you've hit on one of my (many) areas of curiosity. It was the fascination to learn more about how things grow/reproduce/die (and the cellular mechanisms involved) that led to me taking up the field of research biology in college. Too bad all the prerequisites killed that dream.

--Patrick
 
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Chibibar

So by our resident bio-experts, something of the level of "growing like a weed overnight" that is none magic related or super science fiction related won't be possible isn't it?

What I mean by super science fiction like super heroes who can grow in an instant like the Hulk or change size like ant man Or something like that.
 
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Chazwozel

So by our resident bio-experts, something of the level of "growing like a weed overnight" that is none magic related or super science fiction related won't be possible isn't it?

What I mean by super science fiction like super heroes who can grow in an instant like the Hulk or change size like ant man Or something like that.
It's about as possible as faster than light travel, I suppose...

I will never dub anything in nature as impossible. Hell, only 20 or so years ago scientists refused to believe that something like transposons existed.
 
The pseudoscience of the comics (Hulk, etc) tends to explain it away by saying that a growing character "...draws mass from an extradimensional source," which could theoretically work (though it does not explain how this mass gets converted to and from flesh/bone, or how it happens so quickly). In the book Flatland, the author explains that the main character meets with a circle that grows and shrinks. In reality, this circle is a sphere, and the reason that circle changes size is because the sphere is intersecting his plane of existence closer to its surface (chording it and creating a smaller circle) or along its diameter (which would create the largest circle). I suppose it could be possible that someone like Apache Chief actually exists in 4 (or more) dimensions and is already a giant, but only a small fraction of him intersects our 3-dimensional space, and his size increase is achieved by moving towards the larger cross section through our existence. Or he could move that mass in and out of our reality amoeba-style. Similarly, a werewolf-type character could be alternating between two 3D 'cross sections' which resemble human or wolf-man. The main problem that I see with this logic is that the character's normal mass would have to be large enough to encompass all forms, so (s)he would need to eat/poop/breathe enough to maintain the entire mass, no matter how many dimension(s) it occupies. I suppose it could explain the sort of feral, endless appetite you tend to see in monster movies, though. And all the heavy breathing.

--Patrick
 

fade

Staff member
Ant Man and The Atom don't count, though. They don't grow. They scale what's already there.

I love how Marvel plays off the mass problems with insta growth as "presumably from an extradimensional source" in their encyclopedias. Bio aside, there are plenty of physical problems with insta-growth.
 
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Chazwozel

Ant Man and The Atom don't count, though. They don't grow. They scale what's already there.

I love how Marvel plays off the mass problems with insta growth as "presumably from an extradimensional source" in their encyclopedias. Bio aside, there are plenty of physical problems with insta-growth.
Breaking the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics would be a start.
 
Ant Man and The Atom don't count, though. They don't grow. They scale what's already there.

I love how Marvel plays off the mass problems with insta growth as "presumably from an extradimensional source" in their encyclopedias. Bio aside, there are plenty of physical problems with insta-growth.
Breaking the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics would be a start.[/QUOTE]

You can't win.

You can't break even.

You can't quit the game.
 
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