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September 11, 2001: Never Forget 2, the Political Thread

Sep 12, 2011#1

Dave

This is a spin-off of Matthias' "Never Forget" thread, which was mainly for remembrances of where you were and how you feel/felt about the attacks on the World Trade Center. It devolved somewhat due to Charlie's insistence on bringing the conversation around to the aftermath and how we as a country handled ourselves afterwards.

You all know me - I'm a former Marine and a staunch supporter of our armed forces and those who serve. But I agree with Charlie on this. Of course, I was also smart enough and sensitive enough to not chime in yesterday while the thread was going on. *cough* It's called tact, charlie, and it's not always a bad thing.

AAAAAAnyway, this thread is to discuss the political fallout of the 9/11 (or 11/9 if you are not United Statians) attacks and the wars which followed.

Here's my view: We had a worldwide backing and consensus that we needed to take action to bring those responsible to justice. Instead, we squandered any and all goodwill we had by invoking the "Axis of Evil" and attacking Iraq, even going so far as manufacturing "evidence" to back our claims of their involvement. Some of us were against the war (myself included), yet we gave the administration a lot of leeway because we thought they must have known something that we didn't. The administration used that goodwill to wage a personal war (vendetta) against a regime we set up in the first place, browbeat the dissenters with cries of "UNAMERICAN!!" and demonized critical thought. The press didn't help by jumping on the bandwagon of jingoistic rhetoric and not doing any actual questioning about what was going on. We wasted money, political capital and a great amount of lives - both American military and Iraqi civilians - to bring to justice someone who was not a threat to us in any way. The war in Iraq had nothing to do with our country's defense.

Afghanistan is another animal altogether. The war in Afghanistan is the right one and the one that should have been started from the beginning. It is what eventually led us to bin Ladin and is a (more) true war on terror. It is not perfect. There are too many civilians killed, but this is not always the fault of the soldiers. In fact, the tactics of the enemy include utilizing civilians in a war of physical confrontation and then the inevitable deaths of the same civilians being used as emotional ammunition in a war of the psychological nature.

The biggest issue is that by the time we went into Afghanistan we had already been at war for a great amount of time and the will and trust of the people had been so eroded that the real war on terror seemed more like a drag than any sort of action for justice. We lost the will of the world to believe what we had to say and the minds of our own nation who were fatigued by endless war with nothing to show for it.

Meanwhile, the newly-formed Homeland Security and Patriot Act were quickly and (not always) quietly stripping away our freedoms in the name of safety, yet had no discernible effect on actually curtailing any sort of terroristic activities from abroad.

In the end, while 9/11 was a tragedy that killed nearly 3,000 innocent victims, it is even more of a tragedy in that it has been used to strip our natives of their rights, allowed intrusive governmental oversight and (I posit) created an even larger group of militant radicals with a new and fresh hatred of the United States. We went from being a benevolent big brother to the world to a stick-swinging bully who doesn't care who gets hurt as long as we get our way.

I joined the Marine Corps to keep America safe and to guard her freedoms, yet 9/11 did more to harm the United States than an outright attack by a foreign force. It was more effective because they killed less people than we lose on our roads in a month, and we took that and did it to ourselves. They attacked us because they wanted to destroy our freedom. But they didn't take that away from us - we did that to ourselves.

Sep 12, 2011#2

SpecialKO

Damn, Dave, leave something to talk about!

Besides the civil rights question, the way we squandered worldwide international goodwill in our quest to go insane is what really burns me.

I remember at the time that they announced on the radio that the Cubans came, hat in hand, asking to patch things up after 9/11. Maybe they foresaw the US going nuts, or maybe they genuinely wanted to get the bullshit out of the way (most likely a combo of both) and move on, but we were so high on righteous vengeance that we essentially closed the door in their faces. I won't even blame W entirely for that one, because I remember members of Congress on both sides speaking out against it to the extent they paid attention at all.

Sep 12, 2011#3

GasBandit

All I'm going to say is I don't think we really learned the lessons of 9-11, and I also think SMBC has something apropos of this -

NSFW

Sep 12, 2011#4

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
All I'm going to say is I don't think we really learned the lessons of 9-11, and I also think SMBC has something apropos of this -

NSFW

.

Yes, this pretty much.

Also, biggest laugh of my day.

Sep 12, 2011#5

TommiR

I'm pretty sure everyone is sick and tired of reading the quote below, but I thought I might still bring it up, on the off-chance it might be useful somehow:

Hermann Göring said:
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Sep 12, 2011#6

GasBandit

TommiR said:
I'm pretty sure everyone is sick and tired of reading the quote below, but I thought I might still bring it up, on the off-chance it might be useful somehow:

John Stuart Mill said:
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

Sep 12, 2011#7

Tress

And the truth is somewhere in between.

Sep 12, 2011#8

TommiR

@Gasbandit:
that is the most oft-quoted version of Mill. But I believe some might think that the full quote carries a slightly different meaning, when the circumstances of the affair are taken into account.

John Stuart Mill said:
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice,is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.

Sep 12, 2011#9

fade

The problem with that Mill quote is the underlying assumption that war is the only way to fight for what you believe in.

Sep 12, 2011#10

Dave

I had to really hold my tongue all weekend. I don't mind it when New York has a memorial or if they know someone, but when Bully Bumfuck from Crotchrot, Kansas gets all weepy I have to roll my eyes. This same redneck idiot doesn't bat an eye at the 100,000+ dead civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan or see why the disconnect is destructive to our national identity. We should be mourning those deaths as well as our own but instead we choose to gloss them over in the guise of misguided patriotism and political grandstanding.

I had high hopes that Obama would reverse some of the intrusive and illegal practices going on in the country in the name of "security" but instead he's either strengthened them or left them in place.

Now, the next question I get from you is, "What would YOU do?" Fair question.

Close Guantanamo. Now. If you can charge someone with a crime, then bring them back to America to stand trial. If you don't have anything to charge them with then you need to let them go. Let them go back to their home country, pay them for the time they were here and apologize. Sound too touchy-feely? I know that's what I'll get. But you know what? We've held them for 10 years now. If we don't have evidence to convict them or even enough to put them to trial they are innocent!! If we feel we have enough to prosecute then let's do it. No more putting people behind bars against our own fucking rule of law. No more showing the world we say things and tell them they should act in ways that we don't even practice ourselves! We preach about our system of justice as being fair but we totally threw out habeas corpus for these people and that's just wrong.

Repeal the Patriot Act. It has been used to track drug offenders and not terrorists. We have been sold a bill of goods that violates our Constitutional rights and it is not doing what it was supposed to. Repeal it, stop the illegal wiretapping and give us back our 4th Amendment.

Downsize the Department of Homeland Security. It's way too big. I think it can have a purpose by simply bringing together information-sharing from the FBI, CIA, etc which was not happening before. But they should be a totally supportive agency instead of the strong-arm behemoth it is today. If you want it to have power, bring it in as the unbrella organization and put the intelligence agencies under it. Instead of the CIA or FBI (or NSA) being individual entities, put them in as arms of the DHS.

Repeal the powers of the TSA. No, flying is not a right. I get that. But the way that the TSA handles safety is not merely intrusive, but is nothing more than feel-good bullshit that doesn't actually keep anyone safe. How many people have been arrested at airports trying to sneak bad things on planes? Anyone? Now, how many people have been arrested for such things as keeping snakes down their pants, ejaculating while being patted down or wearing a bunny suit? Okay, three on that last thing. But others have been arrested. Like the agents who were stealing from passengers. But that's an isolated incidence, right? Well, there is this one. Oh, and this one. And this one. And this one. I got more if you want them. The TSA does not work. The reason the terrorists were able to crash the planes has nothing to do with the weapons they carried. It had everything to do with the fact that no hijacked planes had been used as weapons before! Until that time, hijacked planes were redirected and landed safely. What do you think would happen now if a group brought on boxcutters? It would be Flight 93 all over again.

Pass a law that takes Personal status away from Corporations. The Supreme Court decision is one of the most destructive that has ever been made and we're going to see the full brunt of it during this presidential season. Hell, we already have with firms giving Romney millions of dollars and then dissolving. Silent, untraceable campaign contributions that hide under the auspices of the horrible decision. We the People no longer run the country. It now belongs to those other people - the large corporations with lobbyists and lawyers.

And this is just the beginning of what needs to be done. This is just about getting our freedoms back. Don't get me started on the economy...

Sep 12, 2011#11

TommiR

fade said:
The problem with that Mill quote is the underlying assumption that war is the only way to fight for what you believe in.

You think so? Personally I read it as his insight on an instance when it is right and just to conduct war, and not as saying that war is the only way to advance what one thinks is right.

Sep 12, 2011#12

GasBandit

fade said:
The problem with that Mill quote is the underlying assumption that war is the only way to fight for what you believe in.

I think it's more along the lines of, sometimes you're left with nothing else.

Dave said:
Stuff

I could get behind most of that... but we still also need to remove silly clinton-era limitations on the sharing of data between law enforcement divisions (the famous Gorelick Wall) that the patriot act has been used to circumvent. We also need to change how we screen at airports, stop looking at tools and start looking at people. A number of things like that.

We can't just hit reset and go back to how we were doing things 9/10/01. We should undo much of what we've done since, but we need to do something else, too... something that works. Israel probably has some suggestions that would be useful.

Sep 12, 2011#13

fade

TommiR said:
You think so? Personally I read it as his insight on an instance when it is right and just to conduct war, and not as saying that war is the only way to advance what one thinks is right.

GasBandit's truncated version seems to be insistent almost that a lack of a desire to wage war, rather than fighting another way, is something to be admonished, as if seeking an alternative (in the cases mentioned) is a sign of weak patriotism.

Sep 12, 2011#14

Dave

fade said:
In yours, yes. GasBandit's version seems to be insistent almost that a lack of a desire to fight is something to be admonished, as if seeking an alternative (in the cases mentioned) is a sign of weak patriotism.

I think it really depends on the circumstances. Peaceful resistance only works so far before the bully takes everything away from you. You have to be able to stand up and state emphatically that you're done taking shit. But I agree it should nearly always be talk first, war third. Second being getting all oiled up and sexy.

Sep 12, 2011#15

fade

Oops, ninja edit. I wanted to be clear on "war" and not "fight", which I think includes the non-violent kind.

Sep 12, 2011#16

AshburnerX

Dave said:
Close Guantanamo. Now. If you can charge someone with a crime, then bring them back to America to stand trial. If you don't have anything to charge them with then you need to let them go. Let them go back to their home country, pay them for the time they were here and apologize. Sound too touchy-feely? I know that's what I'll get. But you know what? We've held them for 10 years now. If we don't have evidence to convict them or even enough to put them to trial they are innocent!! If we feel we have enough to prosecute then let's do it. No more putting people behind bars against our own fucking rule of law. No more showing the world we say things and tell them they should act in ways that we don't even practice ourselves! We preach about our system of justice as being fair but we totally threw out habeas corpus for these people and that's just wrong.

This is just one problem with this: The countries that we took this people from? 90% of them don't want them back. We've effectively made hundreds of people non-citizens of any country. They have nowhere to go and it would be political suicide to let them into the US. So those people are going to sit in Gitmo until the day they die, all because of one administration's thirst for power.

Sep 12, 2011#17

Charlie Don't Surf

yeah, that all sounds pretty good

Sep 12, 2011#18

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
yeah, that all sounds pretty good

Dude, I'm giving you a place to say what you feel. Doooo eeeet!

Sep 12, 2011#19

Krisken

Charlie Don't Surf said:
yeah, that all sounds pretty good

This is the time and place to say what you think on the subject!

Sep 12, 2011#20

Bones

he wont of course, now he cant inflame the populace. there is nothing to gain by saying something in the one place nobody will go on the defensive!
i dare you surfboy, I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU! SPEAK YOUR OPINIONS NOW OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE!

I pretty much think for a time we let fear take hold and a lot of illegal powers were granted that in the long run didn't really work out in our favor.

Sep 12, 2011#21

DarkAudit

"We have always been at war with Eastasia."

Sep 13, 2011#22

DarkAudit

It's stuff like this, cuffed and stuffed just for being a little darker than the next person that makes me think "fuck America". Fuck the Republicans, fuck the Democrats. Fuck the talking heads. Fuck everyone who perpetuates the climate of fear. Fuck everyone too chickenshit to call those people out on their bullshit.

Nothing is going to change until someone gives the likes of Billo, Limbaugh, and Palin the verbal equivalent of a curbstomping on live television. I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. None of the above would dare appear with anyone who would so publicly challenge their positions of power.

Sep 13, 2011#23

Charlie Don't Surf

I was a little flippant, but Dave pretty much covered all the shittiness post-911 that disheartened me about my country. The real loss for me wasn't the loss of life (although that was really tragic, don't get me wrong), but the loss of faith in my country and that we were the best of them.

Sep 13, 2011#24

evilmike

http://shebshi.wordpress.com/2011/0...-awe-racially-profiled-and-cuffed-in-detroit/

Sep 13, 2011#25

SpecialKO

While that is seriously screwed up, the FBI guys seemed pretty pro from her description, once it got to that point. Small thing, I know, but this could have gone so much worse.

Sep 13, 2011#26

Dave

Were I her I would have said, "Lawyer. Now." and not said another fucking word.

Sep 13, 2011#27

Charlie Don't Surf

lol, you think terror suspects can get lawyers

Sep 13, 2011#28

GasBandit

Seldom before has there ever been a political climate more vulnerable to a charismatic megalomaniac with an axe to grind and an enemies list.

Sep 13, 2011#29

Espy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
lol, you think terror suspects can get lawyers

Sadly this is probably true. I think the real point of the story is that we need to educate people. We need people to not see a different skin color and assume regular behaviors (going to the bathroom) are "suspicious". We need the muslim community to interact more and more with it's neighborhoods and cities so they stop being the boogeyman and they start being our neighbors. Everyone needs to work together to make this country less focused on our differences and fears and more focused on our similarities.

Sep 13, 2011#30

Tress

Espy said:
We need the muslim community to interact more and more with it's neighborhoods and cities so they stop being the boogeyman and they start being our neighbors.

The racism that targets Muslims (or just people who look like they might be Muslim, apparently) has nothing to do with how active Muslim communities are. It's not fair to claim that they, as an entire group, are not integrated enough. Doing so makes it sound as though it's their own fault that people are completely bigoted against them. The stupid racists of this country are the ones who need to change.

Sep 13, 2011#31

SpecialKO

Imam Rauf being a long, long, long-time active member of the NYC community didn't do shit when the more fervent/visible anti-"9/11 mosque" people started calling him a terrorist.

Sep 13, 2011#32

fade

I think every human being would agree that the person who should change ought to be he who budges. However, when there's no strong motivation to do so, then that becomes an unending wait. I don't know if that's a recommendation for the victim to step up or some group designed for such action to do so.

Sep 13, 2011#33

Espy

Tress said:
The racism that targets Muslims (or just people who look like they might be Muslim, apparently) has nothing to do with how active Muslim communities are. It's not fair to claim that they, as an entire group, are not integrated enough. Doing so makes it sound as though it's their own fault that people are completely bigoted against them. The stupid racists of this country are the ones who need to change.

In no way am I claiming that anything is the fault of islamic communities due to their amount of integration.
I'm echoing stuff I've heard from our local islamic community (which is very large but struggles with isolation issues) where they desire more and more integration and for very good reason. It can be difficult with folks from other countries who don't know how or are uncomfortable with integrating. In no way is anything like this the fault of the islamic community but let me tell you what, if someone thinks that there aren't struggles to integrate into a new culture or that that isolation can cause some problems? Then they have a few things to learn. It's hard, especially for refugees. It's very easy to stay in an isolated community that is more familiar to you. Thats not healthy for anyone. We need all religions and cultures to interact in order to combat fears and ignorance. Thats not about blaming more isolated communities, it's about wanting to see them become a stronger part of their communities and by that combat the ignorance and racism that is out there.
To just say, "Oh we need to deal with the racists" isn't enough. You can't just force someone to change, especially when you have multiple cultures and people groups who aren't interacting in their communities.

Sep 13, 2011#34

Tress

Espy said:
In no way am I claiming that anything is the fault of islamic communities due to their amount of integration.
I'm echoing stuff I've heard from our local islamic community (which is very large but struggles with isolation issues) where they desire more and more integration and for very good reason. It can be difficult with folks from other countries who don't know how or are uncomfortable with integrating. In no way is anything like this the fault of the islamic community but let me tell you what, if someone thinks that there aren't struggles to integrate into a new culture or that that isolation can cause some problems? Then they have a few things to learn. It's hard, especially for refugees. It's very easy to stay in an isolated community that is more familiar to you. Thats not healthy for anyone. We need all religions and cultures to interact in order to combat fears and ignorance. Thats not about blaming more isolated communities, it's about wanting to see them become a stronger part of their communities and by that combat the ignorance and racism that is out there.
To just say, "Oh we need to deal with the racists" isn't enough. You can't just force someone to change, especially when you have multiple cultures and people groups who aren't interacting in their communities.

See, I disagree. I think the problem is that there are too many segments of society in which it is acceptable, even encouraged, for one to be racist towards Muslims. You can find hostile rhetoric on TV, the radio, just out in public. There needs to be an uprising of people who say that it is no longer okay to be a racist prick. If you're sitting at a bar or in an airport and say something about "ragheads" or whatever, then the complete stranger next to you should lean over and tell you to shut the fuck up. People need to know that all the prejudice and bigotry is not acceptable. People need to take a stand and tell these assholes to fuck off. They are the ones with the problems, and so they should be the ones made to suffer. That's the real problem. If I have to choose one side to coddle and allow to keep doing what they're doing, then it's going to be the folks who aren't doing anything except practicing their religion... not the nutty bastards who hate them for it.

And this is me echoing things from my local community. An area where the local mosque is open and active, and Muslims go out of their way to be involved in the community. They still get "sand coon" spray painted on the wall for their troubles.

Sep 13, 2011#35

Espy

So let me see if I get this straight:

You want people to deal with racism by telling people to stop being racist and to start standing up to ignorance.
I want people to deal with racism by seeing different cultures integrating more and more with each other, which, while not stopping people from being idiots, will help to combat ignorance and fear that are based out of separation and unfamiliarity.

Alright. I can get behind all of that.

Sep 13, 2011#36

Tress

Yeah, when you put it that way, I think we've got a plan going.

Sep 13, 2011#37

SpecialKO

On a national level, the American Muslim community has integrated rather well.

Sep 13, 2011#38

Norris

AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!

Sep 15, 2011#39

Terrik

Here's an...interesting look at some Chinese viewpoints about 9.11 and the US

Sep 15, 2011#40

Tress

Terrik said:
Here's an...interesting look at some Chinese viewpoints about 9.11 and the US

That was fascinating. They captured an entire spectrum of opinions in less than 30 minutes. I was amazed at listening to Chinese citizens talk about how there could never be a terrorist attack on their soil because China is "harmonious" with every other country and has no enemies. That sounds like the same kind of attitude many Americans had about 15 years ago.

Sep 15, 2011#41

AshburnerX

Tress said:
That was fascinating. They captured an entire spectrum of opinions in less than 30 minutes. I was amazed at listening to Chinese citizens talk about how there could never be a terrorist attack on their soil because China is "harmonious" with every other country and has no enemies. That sounds like the same kind of attitude many Americans had about 15 years ago.

I think it was more "No one who would actually want to hurt us could get here" and less "We have no serious enemies". Say what you will of our foreign policy but America itself is rather isolated geographically from the people it fights. This wasn't true of the Russians, but it IS true of just about anyone else.

Sep 16, 2011#42

Tress

AshburnerX said:
I think it was more "No one who would actually want to hurt us could get here" and less "We have no serious enemies". Say what you will of our foreign policy but America itself is rather isolated geographically from the people it fights. This wasn't true of the Russians, but it IS true of just about anyone else.

Either way, I distinctly remember Americans expressing both sentiments in the '90s. I hope China doesn't have to be proven wrong like we were.

Sep 16, 2011#43

AshburnerX

Who would attack China though? I doubt the Tibetians are going to violate just about all of their teachings to bomb a building... maybe the Mongolians? Taiwanese? Perhaps North Korea finally loses it and threatens China?

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