What is America's responsibility to the world?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Granted, we springboarded off of Britian's success as a colonizer, we now owe much of our wealth to the cheap labor elsewhere in the world, and frankly the global desire for oil comes due in no small part to our technological success in the industrial revolution.

So it's not like we can honestly say we made ourselves without outside help, and that no one has suffered under our precipitous climb up the ladder.

But we've received a lot of criticism in the past sticking our nose where it didn't belong - whether it was due to our own interests (stabilizing the middle east to protect our oil interests decades ago, while at the same time polarizing the region so strongly that any small thing could lead to calamity), or whether it was out of a UN or other mandate (there are a few things we've done which don't have an obvious up side for us).

On the other hand, many people in the world somehow look to us for help - probably because we're just the biggest kid on the block.

So, thinking about Libya, Egypt, etc:

* isolation
* world police
* helping out only when it obviously aligns with our interests
* offer assistance to (what's left of) the gov't
* offer assistance to the revolutionaries
* ???

Your thoughts?
 

Dave

Staff member
The biggest problem that I see right now in the Middle East is that we are really stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand the current regimes - whether right or wrong and for whatever reasons - are our friends. So now that their people are rising up against tyranny exactly as we always say that we value, we should be backing the revolutionaries. What we're ending up doing is looking wishy-washy and ineffectual, but that's really the only thing we can do. Do we back pro-Western governments or the freedom fighters who are throwing those governments down? If we pick a side we potentially damage any military or strategic footholds we currently have there.

I think what's really ringing is that China is more and more telling the US to suck it and there's nothing we can do about it. We may seem like the biggest guy on the block, but we're like the old guy who lives in the past. We're not fast enough militarily or economically to embrace change and we're being passed on several fronts.

What is our place in the world? Dunno. But it isn't what it was and we can't afford to keep thinking it is.
 
Regardless of what the US does we will be criticized for it. Therefore whatever we do internationally should be done with our best interests in mind, and not trying to please the rest of the world.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Regardless of what the US does we will be criticized for it. Therefore whatever we do internationally should be done with our best interests in mind, and not trying to please the rest of the world.
Exactly. Haters gonna hate, but we need to start putting ourselves first, since trying to be the world policeman/charity gains us nothing but acrimony.
 

Necronic

Staff member
I love this question.

First its important to differentiate our moral obligation from our moral authority.

MORAL OBLIGATION:
Many people argue that America has a moral obligation to help nations/people that need it. This is both because we are a wealthy and powerful nation and also because the sins of our past were the cause of current problems in other countries.

In many cases the obligation involves internation aid, something that America as a country begrugingly participates in. As a government we give a lot of foreign aid, but by percentage we are actually pretty terribad. On the other hand, private donations of foreign aid from the US are exceptionally high in America, equalling or surpassing the amount given by the government annually.

This also involves a desire to intercede in appalling genocides like Rawanda, Sudan, etc., accept immigrants and assylum seekers, or to adopt foreign babies.

In general I would argue that we as a country want to fulfill our moral obligations, but fail quite regularly. Our commitment to global environmental policy is massively fail. We have not gotten involved in some of the most horrific genocides that have hit the planet in the last couple of decades. Overall we do not succeed in achieving our moral obligations.

The good news is that we aren't alone. Any time a European gives me a hard time about the US not fulfilling its obligations I whip out a map and draw a massive circle around Africa, the Middle East, South America, China and the East Indies/Indochina. Then I ask them to show me in those circles where they have fulfilled their obligations. European Colonialism had probably the single most long lastingly negative effect on the world of any and all actions taken by nations through time.

In general I would argue that America does a far better job of trying to fill its obligations than Europe does, as Europe's obligations are so insurmountably vast that they could spend the rest of their days working full tilt to fix the areas they ruined and still never get close. Still though, the Belgians complicity in the Rawandan Genocide ultimately doesn't excuse our own impotent responses.

MORAL AUTHORITY
Alongside the moral obligations used as justifications to intercede is the belief in the Moral Authority of the US to do so . The logic is that since we have done so well as a country (founders of modern democracy, oldest substantial modern democracy, defenders of the 'free world' during the Cold War, and #1 in the world by GDP for decades) we have therefore shown that we know what we are doing, and people should trust us to do what is right.

This is often part of the justification that is used when talking about things like invading Iraq, invading Vietnam, supporting a coup, bombing another country out of wartime (Libya), or just crazy shit (Noriega, don't know what else to call that one.)

This belief in our moral authority is rooted partially in a massive misunderstanding of geography, history and its effect on the world stage that gave us the last 50 years of glory. The biggest factor in that is WW2. After WW2 we were pretty much the only house left on the block after the hurricane. Everyone else was struggling to rebuild the most basic industrial infrastructure, and the countries closest to the action were shell-shocked so damned bad that it set them back quite a bit. In Mario Kart terms, we hit a lightning bolt.

Because of this, we skyrocketed ahead with ease. This is why we were the big dog in the Cold War. I doubt that Germany, France, etc, didn't want to be involved as much as we were, they simply couldn't be. This is also a big part of why we became so damned rich as a country. Capitalism The Game (TM) is pretty easy when you're playing a one person game.

But this isn't teh only cause of our success. Go back farther. If you think the American Civil War was bad (and it was, no doubt) it pales in comparison to the combined effects of things like the Spanish or French Revolution or the Napoleonic Wars when it comes to a developing country. Europe is like a locked diving bell with 5 dudes in it. When someone farts everyone suffers. Consider the fact that people were immigrating to the US in record waves, knowing they would be going straight into war, just so they could get out of there.

This is where geography comes in. So much of our success, ultimately, is simply a matter of geography. Our isolation gives us a massive advantage when shit hits the fan.

Because of this, our proclaimed moral authority isn't as strong as it sounds. On the other hand, it isn't all bad. We went to the moon. We did that. We built some of the most incredible industrial projects in the world. We did that. We are where the Silicon Revolution came from. We did that.

We have done great things, and because of that we may be able to do more great things for others. But we simply must be careful about what glories of our past we quote as justification. Our importance and success in the Cold War may not be apt justification for our involvement in the Middle East. Our ability to rebuild Germany and Japan doesn't mean we can do it in Iraq or Afghanistan.

-----------------------------

More to come later. I'll be honest, I have very VERY mixed feelings about this question. I do think we have a responsibility, even militarilly, but the justification for intervention is SO important.
 
Regardless of what the US does we will be criticized for it. Therefore whatever we do internationally should be done with our best interests in mind, and not trying to please the rest of the world.
Criticised by whom?! because being criticised by dictatorships that you're friends with isn't the same as being criticised by lets say a human rights group.

And let's face it, it's never been in your best interest to look like you're against freedom, because being the freedom country is the one good image you have...
 
What's the old chestnut by Winston Churchill? "You can always trust an American to do the right thing... after he's tried everything else?". I think that pretty much sums up our international efforts nicely.
 
When I heard Qaddafi bombed his own people, my first thought was... "Where are the carriers?"

I think it is a beautiful sentiment not to meddle in the affairs of other nations, but there is far too much on the line in these nations. Just forget OIL for now, think what would happen to the world with another Iran or two. We need to be sure that these people that are clamoring for liberal democracies get the chance to have one. Iran '79 was a popular revolt that was given over to the conservative Islamist movement. (I am still pissed at France for that.)
 

Necronic

Staff member
Well, what about when we tell a country that we support its decision to have fair and free elections, because democracy is #1, then when the elections are over we say "oh wait, we wanted you to have elections, we just didn't want you to elect those guys. For that reason, we refuse to recognize your new government."

Basically what we did to Palestine.

Its like a parent telling their son "You can be anything you want", then when the kid says "I want to be a ballerina" .... how do you backpedal there?
 
When the kid says, "I want to kill the kid next door," you have reason to be concerned.

Unfortunately the backstory is vastly more complicated than that, but if you introduce the analogy...
 

Necronic

Staff member
When one of your kids is saying "I want to kill the kid next door" you don't tell them "You can do what you think is right." Thinking that democracy was the solution to the problems in Palestine was flat out retarded.

Edit: That's something I don't like about our interventionist ways. Its often just monkeying the past. "Well this worked in Korea, so lets do it EVERYWHERE". Round peg, please meet 500 square holes. Its not even a good monkeying of the past. Our nationbuilding strategies these days are more interested in the PR of 'Free Elections" than in building a stable infrastructure, which was the real succes in Japan/Germany.

I had a conversation with a pretty pro Palestinian Arab at work recently where I went on a bit of a rant about it. The best thing we can do for that country is make them rich, give them economic oppurtunities. All the other shit will follow naturally.

Loook at India and Pakistan. As bitter and nasty as their problems are, guess what may end up fixing it. The fact that they could be each others biggest trade partners. Now that people are in a position to make money there, the younger generations are thinking "Ok, I could hold onto a grudge and be pissed off and posture a bunch with them, or....I could start a business that involves them and become rich". Giving people in a shitty country an option other than anger and misery is the best thing you can do.

Fuck giving them elections. That comes after they have something on their mind other than anger.
 
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.

On the other hand, we've installed other modes of government before. Hasn't worked out then either.

I suspect it really takes two generations living under democracy for the people to accept and understand how to deal with it.

We were pretty lucky it worked out and grew organically from the thoughts in the heads of our founding fathers.

Can we really expect to be able to setup such a state for others?
 

Necronic

Staff member
Think I ninja edited you. And here comes another.

Its not that our only tool is a hammer. Its just that we are too stupid to use anything other than a hammer. We have a LOT of tools. We just don't use them. My thought is that installing a new mode of government isn't our first priority in nation building.
 
The best thing we can do for that country is make them rich, give them economic oppurtunities. All the other shit will follow naturally.
Yeah, it's almost as if people that are in a comfortable position in their lives don't want to have that taken away over some old grudges that no one who was there when they started is still alive.
 
Wait, what? France?
France was protecting the Ayatollah for several years before the fall of the Shah. When the Shit Hit the Fan, France trundled him off on an airliner and dropped him off in the middle of the Revolution. His "heroic" arrival helped to spring board his popularity.

edit:
It was months. He was in Iraq until Hussein took over around '78 then he went to France for several months until they sent him home during the start of the revolution.
 
I know I'm getting older in the sense that I'm starting to give less and less of a shit about world ideals and hoping everyone "just gets along", and instead focusing on my own issues.

Let the world implode on itself. I'll be in my bunker...
 
France was protecting the Ayatollah for several years before the fall of the Shah. When the Shit Hit the Fan, France trundled him off on an airliner and dropped him off in the middle of the Revolution. His "heroic" arrival helped to spring board his popularity.

edit:
It was months. He was in Iraq until Hussein took over around '78 then he went to France for several months until they sent him home during the start of the revolution.
If you're pissed about France's involvement (which was basically making him leave France to go back to his own country), I can only imagine your anger at the US for the original coup with the Shah which started the whole thing.
 

Necronic

Staff member
Yeah, it's almost as if people that are in a comfortable position in their lives don't want to have that taken away over some old grudges that no one who was there when they started is still alive.
omg learn to write sentences. That one didn't make much sense.
 
Reza was in power form '41 to '79. The coup took out some one that tried to shut down the forerunner of BP. So the CIA at the request of MI6 and BP removed the Prime Minister from power, and replaced him with another. And it was a Prime Minister that was trying to take control from the Hereditary ruler of the nation. So we kept him in his position, not put him there.
 
So France kicks someone out of their country, and that's a bad thing. But replacing foreign Prime Ministers is a good thing. *headshake*
 
An ally asked for help and we offered it. I did not make any mention if it were a good thing or not. I don't look at world politics like the "Prime Directive" would work, or even be a good thing.
 
omg learn to write sentences. That one didn't make much sense.
Well it made perfect sense about half way... then i got distracted by work stuff and that's what came out... i really have to remember to double check what i write more often.
 
In my opinion in general, the US has the same international responsibilities as any other state, which basically means observing their treaty obligations. Which treaties the US enters into is up to them to decide, but afterwards, a deal is a deal. Other than that, the US is free to act in whatever manner and according to whichever policies they deem fit. I don't see the current US position of hegemon or the particulars of their history as conferring any additional obligations.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top