Death Penalty

[David]

I'm curious on what everyone's stance on capital punishment is. Good? Bad? A medieval practice that should be abolished? A necessary evil? A just punishment for some types of crimes?

My opinion: No human being or human-created system can be trusted with the authority over another person's life. Even in the case of murderers, they can be locked away from the rest of civilization. I don't have a link to back this up and could be wrong, but I once read somewhere it was actually cheaper to keep somebody locked up for life than the court costs of the mandatory appeals and retrials when a death sentence is issued.

Discuss.

 

[Troll]

The death sentence is fallible. It is also permanent, meaning we can't undo it if we find that the wrong person was convicted. If even a few people are wrongfully convicted, that's too many to allow. And it's cheaper to keep them locked up for life. And there have been studies suggesting that the death penalty is disproportionately used on persons of color, showing one of the greatest flaws in the system. It's not fair.

That pretty much sums up why I'm opposed to it.

 

[AshburnerX]

And it's cheaper to keep them locked up for life.

No, it's really not. It costs thousands of dollars a year to keep a prisoner fed, clothed, housed, and given necessary medical access. It's one of the biggest problems with our prison system in the US, as we have more prisoners than some countries combined, and yet we keep finding new ways (like the War on Drugs) to feed the system. As it is, we're letting out thousands of violent prisoners every year because we can no longer afford to contain them due to state budget cuts.

 

[Troll]

And it's cheaper to keep them locked up for life.

No, it's really not. It costs thousands of dollars a year to keep a prisoner fed, clothed, housed, and given necessary medical access. It's one of the biggest problems with our prison system in the US, as we have more prisoners than some countries combined, and yet we keep finding new ways (like the War on Drugs) to feed the system. As it is, we're letting out thousands of violent prisoners every year because we can no longer afford to contain them due to state budget cuts.[/QUOTE]

It's still cheaper to house them for life because of the automatic appeals process. The cost of legal fees and processing all come out of taxpayer funds, and it quickly costs more than food/clothing/etc for prisoners. Also, while I do favor life sentences over the death penalty, I would like to see some of the comfort taken out of prison (at least for prisoners locked up for life).

 

[Dubyamn]

I support the death penalty for 2 reasons.

First being that no matter what people say there are people who shouldn't be breathing the same air as us and some who should never ever get the possibility of release.

Second is that it encourages plea deals which in the current system means that less than half of all murder cases actually go to trial. If the maximum penalty is life without parole I'm pretty sure more criminals will run the risks and go to trial where there is always the possibility of anybody being found guilty by 12 people too stupid to get out of jury duty.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I feel slightly guilty about being against the Death Penalty because it's far more tortuous to spend any amount of time in our prison system. Our prisons are unfortunately cruel and unusual punishment. But the death penalty is still really heinously wrong and racist, to boot.

some who should never ever get the possibility of release.

Do you not understand the concept of "life without parole"?

Also:

That is some pretty elite company we're in.

 

[Rob King]

Canada does not have the death penalty, but if there were ever a proposal to introduce it (re-introduce? I don't know), I would be a supporter.

I do not subscribe to the belief that every life, big and small, is sacred on a level that should stay one's hand. I stomp on spiders because I don't like them, I eat cows because I occasionally find myself hungry, and I accept the death of human beings as inevitable steps along the path that history takes. Admittedly I am concerned about wrongful convictions and all that jazz, but I trust the legal system and forensic science to improve as time goes on.

I'm sure none of us are under the illusion that the prison systems in our countries are actually about rehabilitation. At best, they are a discard pile for the human race: the place we send people who for some reason find themselves unable or unwilling to subject themselves to the same Social Contract that the rest of us count on to keep us safe and prosperous. This isn't to say that some won't learn to re-integrate. But for the most grievous crimes, death seems to me like an acceptable punishment/discard method.

 

[Frank]

The moment they can prove all executions infallible of wrong judgement is the moment I will be for them.

Until then, I am against it.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Also, for the record, I'm not for the death penalty even if it's infallible through magic, and the convict threw 1,000 babies off a cliff and raped 2,000 children.

 

[Denbrought]

I'd only understand the death penalty if it came along with an abolishment of democracy in the country. As I see it, the people's government and instituted human death just aren't compatible.

Edit: I fail at english verb choice today

 

[Jay]

I'll support death penalties only if the proof is infallible for heinous crimes. I don't believe in allowed pieces of shit to live in jails for their whole life on my government's dime. Just get rid of them.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

That's nice, literally putting a dollar amount on a human's life. Lovely.

 

[Jay]

Yep, their value = 0$

The killed their entire value when they commit heinous crimes. Why should I pay to have them fed? Have them have a roof over their head? Pay to have someone guard them instead of being eaten by fellow savages? I'm not talking about people who tried to steal something from the store here. I'm talking about fucks such as those who have committed pre-meditated murder. Why should they have a chance to get all of this while there are the homeless who beg for spare change and live under bridges with every day being a challenge for them?

Fuck them I say. Just kill them. Useless rabble. It's very Lovely feeling.

 

[Iaculus]

That's nice, literally putting a dollar amount on a human's life. Lovely.

Technically, you sort of have to if you're in government. You have limited resources with which you have to ensure the maximum general quality of life, after all. For instance, would it be worth cutting safety regulations (potentially putting X amount of lives at risk) in order to beef up health-care (potentially saving Y amount of lives)?

Economics is fun, isn't it?

 

[SpecialKO]

I'm in the "only if it's infallible, otherwise no" crowd. I accept the argument that people exist who must be permanently removed for the sake of everyone else should it be necessary and just, but I have no faith in any current human institution that it could be done exclusively when it is necessary and just.

 

[Ravenpoe]

I'm against the death penalty, and my reasons have already been stated more eloquently than I likely would have managed.

I'm also against the way the american prison system is set up. It's little more than a warehouse to store people so that they don't have to be dealt with by other means. I really don't think prison works as a deterrent, and would like to see more rehabilitation systems and less extended prison sentences for nonviolent crimes (that means you, war on drugs).

 

[crono1224]

Good luck in the infallible situations. The ironic thing is people want to speed up the appeals process/reduce number of them, to make it more cost effective to kill people. But on the other side of the coin this could only increase the number of wrongfully convicted people (even if it is by a very small percent).

Also I love the pushing of rehabilitation or fixing whats wrong with people. Regardless of whether or not some maybe able to be 'fixed' or 'rehabilitated' why have we given up on a certain sect of humanity?

 

[Troll]

I feel slightly guilty about being against the Death Penalty because it's far more tortuous to spend any amount of time in our prison system. Our prisons are unfortunately cruel and unusual punishment. But the death penalty is still really heinously wrong and racist, to boot.

I'm curious to know what you think would be an appropriate punishment for a person found guilty of a heinous crime like premeditated murder. If prison is cruel and unusual and the death penalty is out of the question (a point on which we agree), what's the alternative?

 

[crono1224]

I feel slightly guilty about being against the Death Penalty because it's far more tortuous to spend any amount of time in our prison system. Our prisons are unfortunately cruel and unusual punishment. But the death penalty is still really heinously wrong and racist, to boot.

I'm curious to know what you think would be an appropriate punishment for a person found guilty of a heinous crime like premeditated murder. If prison is cruel and unusual and the death penalty is out of the question (a point on which we agree), what's the alternative?[/QUOTE]

I think he was saying our prison system is cruel and unusual, not that prison in general. Though I am only inferring that because he used the word 'our'.

 

[Troll]

I feel slightly guilty about being against the Death Penalty because it's far more tortuous to spend any amount of time in our prison system. Our prisons are unfortunately cruel and unusual punishment. But the death penalty is still really heinously wrong and racist, to boot.

I'm curious to know what you think would be an appropriate punishment for a person found guilty of a heinous crime like premeditated murder. If prison is cruel and unusual and the death penalty is out of the question (a point on which we agree), what's the alternative?[/QUOTE]

I think he was saying our prison system is cruel and unusual, not that prison in general. Though I am only inferring that because he used the word 'our'.[/QUOTE]

I get that. I'm just curious to hear what changes he would like to see. I'm of the opinion that prison should not be comfortable (within reason) as a punishment for the crime that was committed. I say rehab for lesser crimes, but serious crimes should merit a hard life in prison.

 

[Espy]

I feel slightly guilty about being against the Death Penalty because it's far more tortuous to spend any amount of time in our prison system. Our prisons are unfortunately cruel and unusual punishment. But the death penalty is still really heinously wrong and racist, to boot.

I'm curious to know what you think would be an appropriate punishment for a person found guilty of a heinous crime like premeditated murder. If prison is cruel and unusual and the death penalty is out of the question (a point on which we agree), what's the alternative?[/QUOTE]

I think he was saying our prison system is cruel and unusual, not that prison in general. Though I am only inferring that because he used the word 'our'.[/QUOTE]

I get that. I'm just curious to hear what changes he would like to see. I'm of the opinion that prison should not be comfortable (within reason) as a punishment for the crime that was committed. I say rehab for lesser crimes, but serious crimes should merit a hard life in prison.[/QUOTE]


Premium cable tv, cuz peeps need their HBO.

 

[crono1224]

I feel slightly guilty about being against the Death Penalty because it's far more tortuous to spend any amount of time in our prison system. Our prisons are unfortunately cruel and unusual punishment. But the death penalty is still really heinously wrong and racist, to boot.

I'm curious to know what you think would be an appropriate punishment for a person found guilty of a heinous crime like premeditated murder. If prison is cruel and unusual and the death penalty is out of the question (a point on which we agree), what's the alternative?[/QUOTE]

I think he was saying our prison system is cruel and unusual, not that prison in general. Though I am only inferring that because he used the word 'our'.[/QUOTE]

I get that. I'm just curious to hear what changes he would like to see. I'm of the opinion that prison should not be comfortable (within reason) as a punishment for the crime that was committed. I say rehab for lesser crimes, but serious crimes should merit a hard life in prison.[/QUOTE]

There are a lot of problems that exist simply when you put dangerous people behind bars. Rape for instance is pretty prevalent in prison and would be considered cruel punishment. As well as all the assaults that happen. You could isolate everyone but then thats cruel because they don't have social interactions. But who knows what he means, just my perspective.

Also I know a lot of people are against tv and 'entertainment' in prison, but I think it is actually a good thing it allows the guards to have a little more control over the inmates by giving them more privileges if they act well.

 

[Espy]

I understand your point about the dangers of a locked up prison populace, I think you really hit the nail on the head but what is your solution or alternative?

 

[crono1224]

I understand your point about the dangers of a locked up prison populace, I think you really hit the nail on the head but what is your solution or alternative?

Sadly I don't have a lot, the best things I can see are rewards and good punishments, such as outdoor/exercise time, TV time, and other things can help reduce the overt acts of violence. But for other things I would say cut down on recidivism by providing education and/or job training for the outside world. For rape/assault there needs to be better reporting systems and to ensure that the victim doesn't face more punishment as a result of reporting this stuff.

But honestly I couldn't give too many ways to avoid this other than really cutting down on both recidivism and people getting in trouble in the first place.

 

[Rob King]

Also I love the pushing of rehabilitation or fixing whats wrong with people. Regardless of whether or not some maybe able to be 'fixed' or 'rehabilitated' why have we given up on a certain sect of humanity?

I'm not sure I understand your question. The only thing I can guess is that you're asking "Why would one expect mass murderers to re-integrate to society? Everyone is special in their own way." but that's far to bizarre, so I can only assume I'm confused.

 

[crono1224]

Also I love the pushing of rehabilitation or fixing whats wrong with people. Regardless of whether or not some maybe able to be 'fixed' or 'rehabilitated' why have we given up on a certain sect of humanity?

I'm not sure I understand your question. The only thing I can guess is that you're asking "Why would one expect mass murderers to re-integrate to society? Everyone is special in their own way." but that's far to bizarre, so I can only assume I'm confused.[/QUOTE]

I meant why do we throw away the key on most of prison people in general, once you are a convicted felon you have a dark cloud over you as well most of our prisons are to warehouse these people, rather than attempt to help them. Either through education, proper psychological help, or other options that can let the ones that will get parole, have a chance after they get out. What good is it releasing a criminal who has been out of touch with general society and education for 5, 10, 15, 20+ years. They are only going to fall back into a life of crime.

 

[Officer_Charon]

Dammit, lost my other post...

I am, have been, and probably always will be in favor of the death penalty.

I've been more educated about it since I started my current career, and even through discussions on this board, so it's not like I still adhere to it blindly. I honestly and truly believe that there is a class of people who, through their actions and crimes, have forfeited their right to life. Just like there's criminals that I deal with daily who have decided through their actions that they don't deserve the same civil liberties that the rest of us take for granted (i.e. they are in need of arrest), there are ones whose crimes go beyond merely surrendering their civil liberties, and surrender their right to live in this society, or any other.

I will stipulate that this is not a decision to be reached rapidly, nor is it one to be reached lightly. However, I will also stipulate that the appeals process needs to be streamlined drastically. When a man can be caught with damning evidence and testimony against him for killing a cop, and he's still evaded his sentence 20 years later, I have a fundamental issue with that that transcends the merely visceral.

The entire system needs a revamp, but I still agree with the death penalty as an acceptable result for someone's conscious decisions to circumvent societal law.

 

[Chazwozel]

That's nice, literally putting a dollar amount on a human's life. Lovely.

I do believe you sign away your humanity the day you decide to commit a heinous crime or crimes.

---------- Post added at 10:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ----------

Also I know a lot of people are against tv and 'entertainment' in prison, but I think it is actually a good thing it allows the guards to have a little more control over the inmates by giving them more privileges if they act well.

I'm not. TV and entertainment is the best and cheapest way to keep inmates quite and out of trouble. We should implement a World of Warcraft Prison edition. Keep them in a prison, for their minds...

 

[Rob King]

I meant why do we throw away the key on most of prison people in general, once you are a convicted felon you have a dark cloud over you as well most of our prisons are to warehouse these people, rather than attempt to help them. Either through education, proper psychological help, or other options that can let the ones that will get parole, have a chance after they get out. What good is it releasing a criminal who has been out of touch with general society and education for 5, 10, 15, 20+ years. They are only going to fall back into a life of crime.

Ok, that makes a lot more sense than what I thought I was reading.

I agree that a de-stigmatization of ex-convicts would be a good thing. But the fact is that history sometimes helps to predict future, and people know that. In a lot of ways there's not a whole lot that can be done about it. The stigma that stems from our past actions are not a consequence of law: it's a consequence of being a human being (a social creature).

And it doesn't only happen to felons. I was in a bad relationship years ago, and was an absolute jerk to the girl I was dating. I can honestly and truly tell you that I've grown up since then, but any time I spend time with my ex's friends it's clear that they still think I'm the biggest kind of asshole.

Of course, I am (as I have stated already) a supporter of the death penalty, so take all that with a grain of salt. I do believe that there are people out there who are lost causes, and locking them away is the best thing for the rest of us. For the more horrid crimes the death penalty should be an option, even if the one convicted shows the ability to change, for reasons of consistency.

As an alternative to the death penalty, I would support a penal colony in the middle of the ocean where we could dump our mass murderers and the like. But it would have to be inescapable, and despite the fact that it would rid society of it's worst enemies and give the convicts a fresh chance at life (admittedly in a much more hostiles social environment), it would still be decried as cruel by some.

 

[Espy]

Also I know a lot of people are against tv and 'entertainment' in prison, but I think it is actually a good thing it allows the guards to have a little more control over the inmates by giving them more privileges if they act well.

I'm not. TV and entertainment is the best and cheapest way to keep inmates quite and out of trouble. We should implement a World of Warcraft Prison edition. Keep them in a prison, for their minds...[/QUOTE]

BRILLIANT.

 

[Philosopher B.]

That's nice, literally putting a dollar amount on a human's life. Lovely.

I do believe you sign away your humanity the day you decide to commit a heinous crime or crimes.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. It's like ... somebody rapes a kid. They might as well be an animal.

 

[Troll]

However, I will also stipulate that the appeals process needs to be streamlined drastically. When a man can be caught with damning evidence and testimony against him for killing a cop, and he's still evaded his sentence 20 years later, I have a fundamental issue with that that transcends the merely visceral.

I consider this to be the cost of making sure that innocent people are not executed for crimes they did not commit. Granted, that will only be the case a fraction of the time (ideally), but it still needs to be done.

 

[phil]

I don't really like the idea of it, but I suppose it might be a necessary evil. I mean suppose you have someone who is responsible for horrible crimes. Will killing him bring back those who's lives he took? Will it heal any wounds? Of course not. Will sticking him in a cage where he can barely stand and feeding him only enough to keep him alive for the rest of his life? Still, no. There really is just no right answer. If you kill him, you're done with it and I suppose after a while that might sound more enticing than spending all your time in a cell.

I mean, what would we do with Hitler? Is killing him TOO good? Maybe, but if we torture him or keep him and a cage (literally a cage) that seems like sinking to his level. Do we really want that either? So let's put him to work, perhaps. Make him work in a coal mine for the rest of his life. But forced labor seems too risky to me. Who's to say he won't purposefully sabotage something to take other prisoners with him? Or try to escape or use the tools against the guards? I mean you'd have to have a guard or someone down there with them, and that's putting a guard's life needlessly at risk.


So honestly there just isn't any good option. Really they all seem similar to me. It's a shame really.

 

[Necronic]

I believe that some people, and some crimes, do not deserve release and probably deserve death. But not at our hands. Plus it's too expensive, and it doesn't accomplish much. Not nearly as much as studying them. Most crimes that would carry the death penalty would require some severe mental illnesses. I think those people are a resource. Let's study them, do neurological assessments on them that would otherwise be considered dangerous to do on others. Let's poke them, prod them, find out how they tick. If there is nothing all that interesting, use them for clinical drug trials.

They'll never leave of course. But they are a resource.

---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 PM ----------

I will stipulate that this is not a decision to be reached rapidly, nor is it one to be reached lightly. However, I will also stipulate that the appeals process needs to be streamlined drastically. When a man can be caught with damning evidence and testimony against him for killing a cop, and he's still evaded his sentence 20 years later, I have a fundamental issue with that that transcends the merely visceral.

Like Mumia?

Mumia Abu-Jamal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I am not super-researched into how our prison system works and viable alternatives. But I believe it's broken. People on hitler level, or serial rapists should be removed from society and removed from being able to hurt anyone else. I don't think it's our place to torture and/or kill them, no matter what they did. I think there is some middle ground between a resort hotel and systemic beatings and rape and a slow, agonizing death to anyone with a medical condition.

And I just don't buy that someone loses their humanity through any action. That's way too easy to just say "oh, that person's not even human, so we can write them off completely". That's bullshit. They're made up of the same stuff as you and me. They were born from a mother and father, they probably went to the same schools you did at one point. They are human. And more of them will keep doing "inhuman" acts if we don't find a way to fix whatever made them that way. I'm not saying some sort of gene therapy or running medical experiments on prisoners at all. But we just need to fix the huge failures of society that can drive people to become heinous criminals. If it is all genetic (I doubt this), then we can try to help them before they go down that road.