muay thai mma

[Math242]

So yeah, i have a background in goshin jitsu and jiu jitsu (traditionnal). I'm not very good but i've always liked it.

I had to stop because of the schedules.

Today, before work, i went to check out a new club that has just opened 500m from where i live.

They do Muay thai, boxing, judo, karate and mma training. HELL YEAH.

So yeah, starting in 2 weeks, i'm gonna start training in Muay thai and mma (maybe trad boxing if i have time but i don't wanna do too much and burn out)


2 weeks of intense cardio training await me starting today. WEE

wish me luck!

 

[Math242]

i've decided to couple it with a running program and a good fat/good carb diet.

the hart part will be to cut down the beer drinking

 

[Tinwhistler]

sounds exciting! It's been about 3 years since I've taken a new class, but I always love when I start learning something new. I'm pretty sure I'll end up looking for something new to do myself once the older kids are out and about with their own lives and require less of my time.

 

[Math242]

yeah i must admit i'm pumped about it. I know i'll have to refrain myself from signing in before i'm in reasonable shape for sparring

 

[Frank]

A bunch of us here take Brazilian Jiu Jitsu here. It definitely comes in handy.

 

[Math242]

i've used some forms of RNC a few times. Most notably when my 16yo cousin was drunk in my parents home and would not act decently.

it worked like a charm to calm him down.

 

[Iaculus]

Being able to kill people with your elbows is always a valuable life skill.

 

[Math242]

yes, yes it is.

 

[tegid]

I read the thread title as 'muay thai mama' at first

 

[Math242]

geez, my mother learning muay thai is a terrifying thought.

 

[Disconnected]

what exactly is 'mma' training? learning how not to kick a guy in the balls?

 

[Tinwhistler]

mixed martial arts.
Like what you see on the UFC, Pride, etc

 

[Disconnected]

I know what MMA stands for, I did not realize mixed martial arts was a discipline on its own.

I read it as though he is learning rules to compete in MMA - Mixed martial arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Necronic]

I think in a way MMA is a discipline in its own, like Krav Maga or whatever the USMC one is. It borrows heavily/directly from a number of true martial arts, but has a much different focus (kicking ass as opposed to physical/mental/spiritual improvement) and therefore becomes something of its own. I guess there is less of a uniform discipline to it, but the generally heavy focus on Brazillian Jujitsu and Muay Thai does give it a bit of a consistent thread.

 

[SpecialKO]

In a strange kind of way, the MMA "discipline" is kind of like Kung Fu's history, where dozens of different schools go in different directions and focuses based around a similar core idea or outlook, except that MMA's innate focus on individual development and competitive evolution have so far prevented the kind of isolated stratification that became the rule in Kung Fu.

 

[Null]

Well, the thing is that every school of MMA is essentially a hybrid, but most MMA competitors seem to adapt Muay Thai striking and clinching with jui jitsu and wrestling for groundfighting. The reason for this is simple: They are the most efficient, simple, practical techniques for the situation. The early days of UFC, where it was basically "Wait for the karate guy to kick, then shoot in, grab his leg and take him to the mat where he'll flop like a caught fish until you make him tap out" are long gone, and anyone who has any potential for MMA - not so fast, James Toney - is likely to give anyone who tries an elbow to the face for their trouble. Kung Fu techniques are visually impressive and, as demonstrated n Fight Science, can produce amazing results. But the vast majority of those techniques are not strictly applicable to a brawl in close quarters.

 

[Tinwhistler]

Well, the thing is that every school of MMA is essentially a hybrid, but most MMA competitors seem to adapt Muay Thai striking and clinching with jui jitsu and wrestling for groundfighting. The reason for this is simple: They are the most efficient, simple, practical techniques for the situation. The early days of UFC, where it was basically "Wait for the karate guy to kick, then shoot in, grab his leg and take him to the mat where he'll flop like a caught fish until you make him tap out" are long gone, and anyone who has any potential for MMA - not so fast, James Toney - is likely to give anyone who tries an elbow to the face for their trouble. Kung Fu techniques are visually impressive and, as demonstrated n Fight Science, can produce amazing results. But the vast majority of those techniques are not strictly applicable to a brawl in close quarters.

Well, now, hold on a minute there.

That all depends on the kung fu style, don't you think? There are literally hundreds of very different styles in Kung fu. You have grappling styles, like Chin Na (which is used by the Taiwanese police force) and Shui Chao. For close quarters striking, you have hard styles like wing chun, and tiger. Not all kung fu styles have wide flowing movements...many of them have good economy of motion. I've studied several styles over the course of my life, and have successfully used the kung fu I've leared in a number of 'close quarters brawls'.

You could very easily build a competent mixed martial arts style using only a small handful of kung fu styles, much like most MMA schools teach a small handful of other styles (like bjj, muay thai, etc).

Now, I will say that most MMA schools have an advantage over most kung fu schools in that mma schools usually do a lot of sparring just like you would fight in the ring, which builds fighting spirit and combat reflexes a lot faster than doing forms practice will. But that's more of a difference in focus and training style than a specific failing in chinese martial arts.

 

[Null]

True. I was mostly thinking of White Crane, Baguazhang, Chaquan, and Taijiquan. Sure, if you've practiced them for more than 20 years I'm sure you're lethal, but I wouldn't choose any as a primary style.

 

[SpecialKO]

But that's more of a difference in focus and training style than a specific failing in chinese martial arts.

That's kind of what I was trying to get to. I always understood it that over the centuries, chinese schools of martial arts became based more around private armies and organizations than the competitive combat schools system that MMA exists in, and a combination of distance, territorial jealousy, and the economics of war (a thousand guys with axes and armor trained in a month will eventually defeat a few dozen masters who took years to get there) resulted in the different schools of Kung Fu no longer sharing their arts.

Modern MMA, on the other hand, thrives on learning by doing. So many of the biggest champions all seem to have the same story: they trained well, but still got caught by someone who had trained smarter, and they then spent months training to overcome that weakness, and came back for more.

 

[Tinwhistler]

But that's more of a difference in focus and training style than a specific failing in chinese martial arts.

That's kind of what I was trying to get to. I always understood it that over the centuries, chinese schools of martial arts became based more around private armies and organizations than the competitive combat schools system that MMA exists in, and a combination of distance, territorial jealousy, and the economics of war (a thousand guys with axes and armor trained in a month will eventually defeat a few dozen masters who took years to get there) resulted in the different schools of Kung Fu no longer sharing their arts.

Modern MMA, on the other hand, thrives on learning by doing. So many of the biggest champions all seem to have the same story: they trained well, but still got caught by someone who had trained smarter, and they then spent months training to overcome that weakness, and came back for more.[/QUOTE]

Well, it's been my personal experience that most kung fu schools teach by showing, and, as you say, bjj and mma schools teach by doing. It makes a world of difference in competency levels and practical application. Guess the way I teach? "Partner up" is heard in every class

 

[Tinwhistler]

Depends on what you want to learn...if you want something practical, I'd take one of the grappling styles, like Chin na

 

[Math242]

wing chun is badass but not really practical i guess

 

[Tinwhistler]

wing chun is badass but not really practical i guess

It's pretty badass on the street too. It just takes a lot more time to develop the sensitivity to pull it off than it takes to learn grappling



The big weakness in this video is that even though the wing chun guy won, if the loser had any grappling skills at all, he would've been the victor here. After all, he was able to get in and grab the guy, he just didn't have any skills to take it further than that. The wing chun, guy, on the other hand, reacted much like someone with no grappling skills would: Stiffen back, continue to look for ways to punch. Against a skilled grappler, that would get you into trouble.

 

[Math242]

he should have slammed him on the ground and it was game over.

 

[Null]

There's a video out there of some super degree grandmaster in some "kiai" art, supposedly able to paralyze challengers with gestures or his martial shout. He goes up against an essentially amateur MMA fighter, who beats him down in very short order. Apparently there was a significant amount of money put up over this match - "Master Yanagiryuken" claims he can beat any MMA fighter or other challenger, offering a $5000 prize.

Found it:

 

[drifter]

That's a little unfair. Clearly all the EM interference from the cameras and whatnot were disrupting his ki flow.

 

[Tinwhistler]

There's a video out there of some super degree grandmaster in some "kiai" art, supposedly able to paralyze challengers with gestures or his martial shout. He goes up against an essentially amateur MMA fighter, who beats him down in very short order. Apparently there was a significant amount of money put up over this match - "Master Yanagiryuken" claims he can beat any MMA fighter or other challenger, offering a $5000 prize.

Found it:

Yeah, those guys are total charlatans. I'm surprised he actually took on a real fighter. He musta got enough students buying into his BS that he created a positive-reinforcement feedback loop that caused him to end up believing his own bullshit.

That guy had no idea how to actually fight. He was moving so slowly, it was ridiculous. No reflexes, no reaction time. I guess he hoped his mystic chi force field would save him. The guy he was fighting wasn't even that good--even some rudimentary skills would have made the fight a lot more even.

I fully support exposing fucktards like that who give real martial arts a bad name.

 

[Math242]

i suggest a match between that kiai master and W. Silva.

Yes, Stomps and knees to the head of a downed opponent should be allowed.

 

[SpecialKO]

WTF was that?! The dude waved his arms randomnly....

 

[Tinwhistler]

Sorry to turn your thread into a "debunk retard wanna be martial arts hoaxers", but you know how this place is..




8 part series on this bullshit "no touch knockout" phenomenon in the martial arts world. Starts with the same video we've seen, but delves into looking at other charlatans as well.

 

[SpecialKO]

Those videos are hilarious!

 

[Adam]

wing chun is badass but not really practical i guess

It's pretty badass on the street too. It just takes a lot more time to develop the sensitivity to pull it off than it takes to learn grappling



The big weakness in this video is that even though the wing chun guy won, if the loser had any grappling skills at all, he would've been the victor here. After all, he was able to get in and grab the guy, he just didn't have any skills to take it further than that. The wing chun, guy, on the other hand, reacted much like someone with no grappling skills would: Stiffen back, continue to look for ways to punch. Against a skilled grappler, that would get you into trouble.[/QUOTE]

The big weakness in that video is that it's fake as shit.

 

[Tinwhistler]

looks like a pretty typical fight between a trained guy and an untrained guy to me.
My deconstruction:

The guy on the left tries to come in, and the wing chun guy stop-kicks him and gives him one hit as the kick pushes him back.

Guy comes in again with a wild overhand right, and the wing chun looks like he tries to do pak sau block, but he's using the wrong hand for that if so, which might make it understandable why he loses his stance/composure, stiffening up while jerking his head back--this is a pretty standard reaction from someone who's been training, but is hit with a situation outside the scope of the training. He might have been better served with a tan sau or bong sau block. But such is life.

As the haymakyer goes past, the wing chun guy falls back into training and chain punches the dude's head.
The guy bends over and turns his head away while scooting in and hitting the wing chun guy in the ribs with a few untrained looking lefts. When he's scooted in close enough, he grabs the guys waist and picks him up. So far, this guy is doing things exactly what I would expect an untrained fighter to do.

As he's picked up the wing chun guy starts elbowing the other guy's face. The guy drops him and the wing chun guy does a basic takedown and chain punches him a couple of times until the guy rolls over.

It looks like really standard wing chun versus a 'street scrapper' to me.

Explanation of "chain punch" here:


explanation of the "stop kick" seen in the fight here:

 

[Adam]

looks like a pretty typical fight between a trained guy and an untrained guy to me.
My deconstruction:

The guy on the left tries to come in, and the wing chun guy stop-kicks him and gives him one hit as the kick pushes him back.

Guy comes in again with a wild overhand right, and the wing chun looks like he tries to do pak sau block, but he's using the wrong hand for that if so, which might make it understandable why he loses his stance/composure, stiffening up while jerking his head back--this is a pretty standard reaction from someone who's been training, but is hit with a situation outside the scope of the training. He might have been better served with a tan sau or bong sau block. But such is life.

As the haymakyer goes past, the wing chun guy falls back into training and chain punches the dude's head.
The guy bends over and turns his head away while scooting in and hitting the wing chun guy in the ribs with a few untrained looking lefts. When he's scooted in close enough, he grabs the guys waist and picks him up. So far, this guy is doing things exactly what I would expect an untrained fighter to do.

As he's picked up the wing chun guy starts elbowing the other guy's face. The guy drops him and the wing chun guy does a basic takedown and chain punches him a couple of times until the guy rolls over.

It looks like really standard wing chun versus a 'street scrapper' to me.

I saw:

A crowd of white 'gangsters' 'throwing down' before the fight, lookin' all tough and stereotypical.

Then the Wing Chun guy makes a show of taking off his jacket and passing it to someone to hold (wtf?). Meanwhile, there's no increase in crowd activity in anticipation of the fight. Everyone is still making generic fight support motions in the background. Opponent is standing flat footed, but cracks his neck with his hands hanging loosely by his side.

Opponent waits for guy to assume stance, than lumbers in, only to be greeted by a front kick which sets him back a bit. He does make a grab for the leg but misses. (This may be the most realistic part of the fight). Once again, crowd is making stereotypical fight support actions, throwing air punches, cheering. They haven't much changed this behavior since the beginning of the video. Background characters in Street Fighter 2 were more realistic.

Opponent recovers and throws a very slow Hollywood haymaker that would have missed even if it wasn't blocked. but apparently the force of the punch was so much he bent over in front of Wing Chun. Still no change in crowd behavior despite the 'beginning' of the 'fight'.

A couple quick punches to the head of the opponent which could be connecting, or not. Hard to tell. Apparently they don't affect him because he opens his hands up wide like a wrestler and then closes them around the guys waist and lifts him straight up in the air. A couple quick punches to the head of the opponent again while being twirled in the air like a ballerina. Wing Chun is dropped, trips the opponent. Throws some more punches that may or may not be connecting and gives him a quick kick.

Crowd guy in the foreground throws his hat at the ground once the the throw is completed. And then kicks the opponent in the leg while he's down.

Meanwhile, magically they have stayed in camera and in focus the entire time.

All we're missing is "FINISH HIM" appearing over the screen.

 

[Tinwhistler]

I saw this as a "fight club" kind of fight, not a random throwdown. The crowd and fighter reactions are consistent with this kind of situation. The fact that there's a big crowd at all makes it consistent with this kind of situation. Random throwdowns don't have 15 or 20 guys cheering for various fighters.

As for your assessment of the fighters themselves, I have to disagree. In my experience (which is not limited) the "haymaker guy" reacts very much exactly how an untrained guy can be expected to react. The wing chun guy reacts very much exactly the way I'd expect someone to react with 1-2 years of training.