Rant VII: Now With 25% Less Drama
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I have, but I want to have it published and seen in bookstores. I don't want just digital.
Self-publishing doesn't feel as...I don't know...legit.
Self-publishing doesn't feel as...I don't know...legit.
Man ThatNickGuy, that kinda stinks...
maybe move the action to Earth (a stop over for space refugees)... where it would be more obvious about where he gets his references from.
maybe move the action to Earth (a stop over for space refugees)... where it would be more obvious about where he gets his references from.
Nick, I see that letter as more of a constructive criticism letter. They point out positives, including your ability to write dialog, along with some negatives. The fact that they showed it to the reader group is very positive, most don't make it past the submissions. You've got their attention, now you just have to solidify the script with some of the stuff that they pointed out.
Yeah, this honestly sounds like constructive criticism. Take it to heart and shore up your manuscript more. As a writer, I can tell you there there is ALWAYS room for improving your own work.
fade
Staff member
I have to admit, and I don't mean this as an insult, I completely agree that writing in an accent or a dialect usually detracts from a book. I have also put them down before. I'd rather have a strong accent conveyed to me in word usage and descriptive text, rather than by an attempt to transcribe it. For one, it's probable that it's not coming across the way you intended it, because you're probably basing it on how you pronounce the words.
I'm so sorry Nick.
However, it looks like they gave you a lot of feed back. Cool off a bit and maybe you can look at it more objectively.
I know you don't want to self publish...but at this point it may be worth looking into. As great as it would be to say you're with so and so press...it could be just as a great to say you're self published. A good friend of mine self published after shopping his novel around to everyone and being rejected. He has now one awards and is in Brazil reporting on global issues...all because of one self published book!
However, it looks like they gave you a lot of feed back. Cool off a bit and maybe you can look at it more objectively.
I know you don't want to self publish...but at this point it may be worth looking into. As great as it would be to say you're with so and so press...it could be just as a great to say you're self published. A good friend of mine self published after shopping his novel around to everyone and being rejected. He has now one awards and is in Brazil reporting on global issues...all because of one self published book!
Guys...
As someone who's read Nick's book, I'm calling bullshit.
1. It's very obvious that this takes place on Earth. Just because a city or technology doesn't exist in the real world doesn't change that. This was never confusing.
2. Reducing the slang = good. Removing the slang = stupid.
Also take a good look at that comment from another reader. He read some of the book. No wonder he was confused.
As for exposition, everything you need to understand the story is in the book. The history of Nevermore and its people, where Dillo comes from, why he is the way he is, character backgrounds. It sounds like this guy wants it all shoveled up-front, which is how you write a shitty beginning to a book.
So I'm going with CG--not the right publisher. I told you this would be a tough sell; anything unconventional is.
On self-publishing:
This is the future of media distribution.
Times are changing. Music, books, comics, video games... The big companies don't know what things will look like even 2 years from now. Take a look at our own forum's Tinwhistler. He said if his sales stick, he'll be pulling in $25k for his book by year's end. That's pretty much all eBook.
Also, if you publish only through eBook, that means you haven't used first print rights. That means that if a company finds your book (including Amazon publishing, who have done this many times since self-publishers began popping up on the Kindle) they can still buy those rights and print the book, with all the traditionalist bells and whistles.
And then there's situations like Harlequin publishing, whose recent publicity came from cheating an author, giving her 2 cents per sale, or Archaia, who has let the second volume of Gunnerkrigg Court remain out of print for years, with nothing the author can do about it.
So yeah, it might not feel "legit" because centuries old companies have an interest in telling you how it's supposed to feel. A decade from now? Even those companies don't know how things will be. I do know that within the past few months they were sued by the U.S. Department of Justice for price-fixing; essentially screwing over their authors and customers. Self-publishing, kickstarter, KDP--these things are cutting out the middleman in media. It's letting people decide what they want to read rather than having a publisher tell us what we want to read.
The downsides of self publishing are that 1. you're putting yourself out there and that's scarier than letting someone else put you out there, because it's all in your hands to click those buttons. 2. you're the one telling people you're out there; or you're getting other people to do so because you let them read your book and they want others to read it too.
As someone who's read Nick's book, I'm calling bullshit.
1. It's very obvious that this takes place on Earth. Just because a city or technology doesn't exist in the real world doesn't change that. This was never confusing.
2. Reducing the slang = good. Removing the slang = stupid.
Also take a good look at that comment from another reader. He read some of the book. No wonder he was confused.
As for exposition, everything you need to understand the story is in the book. The history of Nevermore and its people, where Dillo comes from, why he is the way he is, character backgrounds. It sounds like this guy wants it all shoveled up-front, which is how you write a shitty beginning to a book.
So I'm going with CG--not the right publisher. I told you this would be a tough sell; anything unconventional is.
On self-publishing:
This is the future of media distribution.
Times are changing. Music, books, comics, video games... The big companies don't know what things will look like even 2 years from now. Take a look at our own forum's Tinwhistler. He said if his sales stick, he'll be pulling in $25k for his book by year's end. That's pretty much all eBook.
Also, if you publish only through eBook, that means you haven't used first print rights. That means that if a company finds your book (including Amazon publishing, who have done this many times since self-publishers began popping up on the Kindle) they can still buy those rights and print the book, with all the traditionalist bells and whistles.
And then there's situations like Harlequin publishing, whose recent publicity came from cheating an author, giving her 2 cents per sale, or Archaia, who has let the second volume of Gunnerkrigg Court remain out of print for years, with nothing the author can do about it.
So yeah, it might not feel "legit" because centuries old companies have an interest in telling you how it's supposed to feel. A decade from now? Even those companies don't know how things will be. I do know that within the past few months they were sued by the U.S. Department of Justice for price-fixing; essentially screwing over their authors and customers. Self-publishing, kickstarter, KDP--these things are cutting out the middleman in media. It's letting people decide what they want to read rather than having a publisher tell us what we want to read.
The downsides of self publishing are that 1. you're putting yourself out there and that's scarier than letting someone else put you out there, because it's all in your hands to click those buttons. 2. you're the one telling people you're out there; or you're getting other people to do so because you let them read your book and they want others to read it too.
Thanks, Primeman. I'm still hesitant to go self-publishing, but reconsidering it more and more.
I always follow two rules when it comes to receiving criticism:
1) Always consider what is being said, even if it hurts, is embarrassing, or doesn't make complete sense to you. Never discount criticism because you don't like it.
2) Never automatically change something because of criticism; give everything a fair amount of consideration, then make the changes you think need to be made.
Good luck, TNG. I'm sure eventually you'll find the right place to publish your book.
1) Always consider what is being said, even if it hurts, is embarrassing, or doesn't make complete sense to you. Never discount criticism because you don't like it.
2) Never automatically change something because of criticism; give everything a fair amount of consideration, then make the changes you think need to be made.
Good luck, TNG. I'm sure eventually you'll find the right place to publish your book.
S
SeraRelm
So yeah, if you call security on some drunk dude who tries to cop a feel on you at work, that makes you a dirty whore. Was anyone else aware of this? It's news to me. Worse was said, but all in all today was a great big pile of shit.
Wow, seriously? That's pretty fucking awful. Nobody deserves that.
Dave
Staff member
Whoa. Totally missed this one. Do you work in a place that has cameras? Was it security who called you this or the drunken asshole? If it was security, are you taking it up the ladder for harassment?
S
SeraRelm
The drunk, but it took them awhile to get there.
I may have missed a memo somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that's not how it works
ThatNickGuy : chin up! As others have said, you got to the readers, and the criticism at least show they read (parts of) your book. There was plenty of positive in there. Saying you're more likely to lose your reader because of confusion than from boredom is, in itself, not a bad thing. It just means your book, as it stands now, isn't fit for Joe Average because he may have to actually think about things. Not every publisher wants to publish that sort of thing. It might be "fixable" with some tweaks, or not, I haven't read your book - but they very clearly indicate they think you've got potential. It may suck to get rejected, but it's like a job interview: it's a whole lot better to hear you've been rejected for this or that reason after an interview, than it is to send your resume and never hear from them again or get a standard form.
Necronic
Staff member
Nick, I would take that letter as a really good sign in that they actually went through the effort of reading it and giving you a serious and detailed response about what they liked/disliked. That's a really positive sign. Take what you want from the critique and get back out there. Most people don't even get anything other than a canned rejection letter.
Also. Horrible night last night. Leading into a horrible day today. Which will probably result in a horrible weekend. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind may be one of the insightful movies about relationships I have ever seen, but it's insight is so incredibly depressing. Guess that ring will be staying in it's box.
Also. Horrible night last night. Leading into a horrible day today. Which will probably result in a horrible weekend. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind may be one of the insightful movies about relationships I have ever seen, but it's insight is so incredibly depressing. Guess that ring will be staying in it's box.
Keep in mind that there are ways to self publish, get on the book list stores order from, and get an isbn. Of course then comes the hard part of getting stores to stock your book and marketing it, but you needn't believe that self publishing means you can't get it in stores.
Out of curiosity, have you tried Tor or Baen? I don't know if it would be a good fit, but it's uncommon for the first publisher to read a manuscrupt to snap it up from an unpublished author. You really need to shop it around to find the right publisher. Further, if you're really keen to get it published, you need to be prepared to fully participate in the publishing business, which means you may have to chase down an agent who will shop it around for you. Not only will they get people to read it, but they'll get the right people to read it, and discuss it with them rather than the minimum communication you get sending it in and getting one letter of feedback.
Good luck!
That is something I've been surprised about with Nick's route. Publishers usually don't want to hear from authors; they want to hear from agents.
Steinman is also correct about getting stuff in bookstores. Certain programs on Createspace, for example, let you get it into various online stores, one of which is Barnes and Noble. Then anyone who goes into a Barnes and Noble can ask for the book and they'll order it in. If that happens enough in a location, they'll start stocking it anyway. You can do your own publishing imprint if you like, and so long as you're the only one who prints books through it, you shouldn't have to do any business tax bullshit (unless Canada's different).
Biggest thing is doing the leg work. Sometimes smaller bookstores can be convinced to let you do book signing stuff.
That's just to fulfill last century's dreams though; eBooks are exploding everywhere and bookstores are unfortunately dying.
Steinman is also correct about getting stuff in bookstores. Certain programs on Createspace, for example, let you get it into various online stores, one of which is Barnes and Noble. Then anyone who goes into a Barnes and Noble can ask for the book and they'll order it in. If that happens enough in a location, they'll start stocking it anyway. You can do your own publishing imprint if you like, and so long as you're the only one who prints books through it, you shouldn't have to do any business tax bullshit (unless Canada's different).
Biggest thing is doing the leg work. Sometimes smaller bookstores can be convinced to let you do book signing stuff.
That's just to fulfill last century's dreams though; eBooks are exploding everywhere and bookstores are unfortunately dying.
Necronic
Staff member
Be super careful with self publishing though. While a lot of it is totally on the up and up a lot of it revolves around scamms and misinformation. Durban house is one that I ran across during some "investigative journalism" (googling) involving a book I was interested in.
http://forums.writersweekly.com/vie...previous&sid=68d6225f443e7622a14f7b1b5c5055ec
its a worthwhile read.
http://forums.writersweekly.com/vie...previous&sid=68d6225f443e7622a14f7b1b5c5055ec
its a worthwhile read.
That's not self-publishing. That's more like a vanity press; i.e. you pay someone to pretend to be your publisher. I'd even say that one in the link isn't even a vanity press, but a scam front meant to snag people thinking they're going with a publisher, meant to snag people looking for what Nick's been looking for.
I'm not really sure how a lot of self-publishing involves scams when the whole "self" part means you're doing it yourself. Unless you scam yourself, in which case, I suppose you win either way.
Necronic
Staff member
Ah ok, maybe I misunderstood the difference between self publishing and vanity publishing. I mean, if you self publish you still have to go through SOME intermediary right? The "rawest" you can get is working directly with the printers, is that what people do? Or do they have some other middleman involved?
Also either way I still wouldn't recommend self publishing. If you really think your book is good enough to publish then you have to think that a publishing house will pick it up. It wouldn't be that big of a deal, but the thing is that a lot of book sellers might have the exact same evaluation. I'm not saying self-publishing implies that its bad. But if it's been published by a known entity then the seller can say "ok well someone else liked it enough to publish it." It removes a level of risk.
Another route you may want to try (since it's such a completely wacky sounding story) is trying to weasel your way in with some short stories and get them published in a sci-fi magazine. My brother is currently doing this with a book he's trying to write, and after he got his short-story published in a SteamPunk magazine it got it enough exposure that the magazine publishers are considering publishing his book for him.
It's also (iirc) how Dune was published. Maybe your armadillo is the next DUNE!
Also either way I still wouldn't recommend self publishing. If you really think your book is good enough to publish then you have to think that a publishing house will pick it up. It wouldn't be that big of a deal, but the thing is that a lot of book sellers might have the exact same evaluation. I'm not saying self-publishing implies that its bad. But if it's been published by a known entity then the seller can say "ok well someone else liked it enough to publish it." It removes a level of risk.
Another route you may want to try (since it's such a completely wacky sounding story) is trying to weasel your way in with some short stories and get them published in a sci-fi magazine. My brother is currently doing this with a book he's trying to write, and after he got his short-story published in a SteamPunk magazine it got it enough exposure that the magazine publishers are considering publishing his book for him.
It's also (iirc) how Dune was published. Maybe your armadillo is the next DUNE!
Nick is from the maritime's though.
Having lived here all my life I can tell you one thing....if you self publish you can still get a lot of notice in these parts.
I'd hate to go back to my high school friend but I must. He published his book...and he's doing great with it. Signings, reading at events, Brazil, etc. If you do the leg work around these parts, flaunt that you are from the area and you didn't write just another historical fiction book you can do real well.
It just takes work.
Having lived here all my life I can tell you one thing....if you self publish you can still get a lot of notice in these parts.
I'd hate to go back to my high school friend but I must. He published his book...and he's doing great with it. Signings, reading at events, Brazil, etc. If you do the leg work around these parts, flaunt that you are from the area and you didn't write just another historical fiction book you can do real well.
It just takes work.
Yeah. I figure Dill would work great among my fellow nerd market. In fact, to promote it, I was thinking of sending a copy to Chris Sims of ComicsAlliance.com. He's a huge Batman fanatic, so I figure I could send it and say, "If you love Batman, you'll love this..." which'll get his attention. 
Ignoring that most self-publishing today involves eBooks, when you do make it physical, yes, you work directly with the printers. In fact, sites like Createspace will not print your book if you try listing them as the publisher. You are the publisher; they just print the books.
The idea that getting a publisher is better than having no publisher is crap these days because things are changing. I get this is hard for the older members of the board to understand; hell, Dave was likely saying paper books would fall apart and a real author would stick to getting a chiseler to put his story to stone.
I've already listed financial reasons why being desperate for a publisher is a bad idea, and you actually posted one yourself. There's another--because of the dying bookstores and the increase in self-publishing, the big six are in risk management mode right now and are less likely to post things that are different. Nick's book is different.
Now, if we want to nail the Camel people, I really don't think they read it too hard. I can think of no conceivable way you could read Nick's book and think it didn't take place on Earth. I don't even know why the one guy sent it over to a sci-fi guy; having science in a fiction book does not make a science fiction book. Maybe a SyFy book. It sounded to me like these guys would've preferred the book if it was stripped down. Make Dill and any other odd creatures into humans, get rid of the laboratory stuff, the magic, anything that made the book more than just a private eye on a case.
No. Fuck 'em.
Nick's already had short stories published.
Like I told you in private, it feels like a comic book story in prose. Other people have had success with those kinds of stories; no reason you can't.Yeah. I figure Dill would work great among my fellow nerd market. In fact, to promote it, I was thinking of sending a copy to Chris Sims of ComicsAlliance.com. He's a huge Batman fanatic, so I figure I could send it and say, "If you love Batman, you'll love this..." which'll get his attention.
LittleSin also makes a good point. If you have that kind of area, that's ideal for spreading word of mouth, making appearances, etc. That's more than a lot of people have going for them when they start this stuff. It's why I'm not just putting my novel out in eBook later this year; I have a possible event going on in October where a friend is performing some of my fairy tales and I'll be shilling out my wares. Don't want to just be passing out a URL.
All that said, Nick, though I'm a huge proponent for these changes in everything, you have to do what's right for you. So give it lots of thought. You have avenues others don't if you do this. Dill could have a Facebook page (not just a fan page, but one for the character--that'll tell people which fucking world he lives on, sheesh), social media stuff not available to many. But you gotta do your thing.
No way! I can't trust the Decepticons!
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