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A man finds true love, in Japan

Jul 28, 2009#1

JCM

Keyword, in Japan.

Love in 2-D
Published: July 21, 2009
Nisan didn’t mean to fall in love with Nemutan. Their first encounter — at a comic-book convention that Nisan’s gaming friends dragged him to in Tokyo — was serendipitous. Nisan was wandering aimlessly around the crowded exhibition hall when he suddenly found himself staring into Nemutan’s bright blue eyes. In the beginning, they were just friends. Then, when Nisan got his driver’s license a few months later, he invited Nemutan for a ride around town in his beat-up Toyota. They went to a beach, not far from the home he shares with his parents in a suburb of Tokyo. It was the first of many road trips they would take together. As they got to know each other, they traveled hundreds of miles west — to Kyoto, Osaka and Nara, sleeping in his car or crashing on friends’ couches to save money. They took touristy pictures under cherry trees, frolicked like children on merry-go-rounds and slurped noodles on street corners. Now, after three years together, they are virtually inseparable. “I’ve experienced so many amazing things because of her,” Nisan told me, rubbing Nemutan’s leg warmly. “She has really changed my life.”

Nisan had a real-life girlfriend who left him, something Nemutan isn’t likely to do.

Nemutan doesn’t really have a leg. She’s a stuffed pillowcase — a 2-D depiction of a character, Nemu, from an X-rated version of a PC video game called Da Capo, printed on synthetic fabric. In the game, which is less a game than an interactive visual novel about a schoolyard romance, Nemu is the loudmouthed little sister of the main character, whom she calls nisan, or “big brother,” a nickname Nisan adopted as his own when he met Nemu. When I joined the couple for lunch at their favorite all-you-can-eat salad bar in the Tokyo suburb of Hachioji, he insisted on being called only by this new nickname, addressing his body-pillow girlfriend using the suffix “tan” to show how much he adored her. Nemutan is 10, maybe 12 years old and wears a little blue bikini and gold ribbons in her hair. Nisan knows she’s not real, but that hasn’t stopped him from loving her just the same. “Of course she’s my girlfriend,” he said, widening his eyes as if shocked by the question. “I have real feelings for her.”

At 37, Nisan is already balding, and his remaining hair has gone gray. “I can’t eat meat because of my diabetes,” he said, chomping on a forkful of lettuce and okra. “I’m just an unlucky guy.” As Nisan and I talked, Nemutan stared demurely at her pumpkin soup. It was a national holiday, and the restaurant was packed with young families. Several mothers gave Nemutan inquisitive looks, but the majority seemed not to notice her.

Nisan told me that not long ago he had a real girlfriend, but that she dumped him. He carries Nemutan almost everywhere he goes, though he is more self-conscious about it than he may seem at first. “Some people don’t find this funny,” he said, “and it also takes up a lot of room.” He treats her the way any decent man would treat a girlfriend — he takes her out on the weekends to sing karaoke or take purikura, photo-booth pictures imprinted on a sheet of tiny stickers. In the few hours we spent together, I watched him position her gently in the restaurant booth and later in the back seat of his car, making sure to keep her upright and not to touch her private parts. He doesn’t take her to work, but he has a backup body pillow with the same Nemutan cover inside his desk drawer in case he has to work late at his tech-support job. “She’s great for falling asleep with on an office chair.” Nisan has seven Nemutan covers in total — he buys them at Internet auctions and at fan conventions whenever he finds a good deal (he paid $70 for the original). If one gets too faded and dirty from overuse, he layers a new one over it. On the day that I first met Nisan and Nemutan, Nisan was carrying a new Nemutan cover in his bag in case she needed to look fresh for a photograph. He knows it’s weird for a grown man to be so obsessed with a video-game character, but he just can’t imagine life without Nemutan. “When I die, I want to be buried with her in my arms.”

Nisan is part of a thriving subculture of men and women in Japan who indulge in real relationships with imaginary characters. These 2-D lovers, as they are called, are a subset of otaku culture— the obsessive fandom that has surrounded anime, manga and video games in Japan in the last decade. It’s impossible to say exactly what portion of otaku are 2-D lovers, because the distinction between the two can be blurry. Like most otaku, the majority of 2-D lovers go to work, pay rent, hang out with friends (some are even married). Unlike most otaku, though, they have real romantic feelings for their toys. The less extreme might have a hidden collection of figurines based on anime characters that they go on “dates” with during off hours. A more serious 2-D lover, like Nisan, actually believes that a lumpy pillow with a drawing of a prepubescent anime character on it is his girlfriend.

According to many who study the phenomenon, the rise of 2-D love can be attributed in part to the difficulty many young Japanese have in navigating modern romantic life. According to a government survey, more than a quarter of men and women between the ages of 30 and 34 are virgins; 50 percent of men and women in Japan do not have friends of the opposite sex. One of the biggest best sellers in the country last year was “Health and Physical Education for Over Thirty,” a six-chapter, manga-illustrated guidebook that holds the reader’s hand from the first meeting to sex to marriage.

Most 2-D lovers prefer a different kind of self-help. The guru of the 2-D love movement, Toru Honda, a 40-year-old man with a boyishly round face and puppy-dog eyes, has written half a dozen books advocating the 2-D lifestyle. A few years ago, Honda, a college dropout who worked a succession of jobs at video-game companies, began to use the Internet to urge otaku to stand with pride against good-looking men and women. His site generated enough buzz to earn him a publishing contract, and in 2005 he released a book condemning what he calls “romantic capitalism.” Honda argues that romance was marketed so excessively through B-movies, soap operas and novels during Japan’s economic bubble of the ’80s that it has become a commodity and its true value has been lost; romance is so tainted with social constructs that it can be bought by only good looks and money. According to Honda, somewhere along the way, decent men like himself lost interest in the notion entirely and turned to 2-D. “Pure love is completely gone in the real world,” Honda wrote. “As long as you train your imagination, a 2-D relationship is much more passionate than a 3-D one.” Honda insists that he’s advocating not prurience but a whole new kind of romance. If, as some researchers suggest, romantic love can be broken down into electrical impulses in the brain, then why not train the mind to simulate those signals while looking at an inanimate character?

Honda’s fans took his message to heart. When he admitted to watching human porn at a panel discussion in Tokyo in 2005, several hundred hard-core 2-D lovers in the audience booed with shock that their dear leader had nostalgia for the 3-D world. Later, in an interview with a Japanese newspaper, Honda clarified his position, saying that he was worried 2-D love was becoming an easy way out for young otaku, who might still have a shot at success in the real world. “I’m not saying that everyone should throw away hopes of real romance right away. I am simply saying that guys like me who have gotten to a point of no return can be happy living in 2-D.”

In Japan the fetishistic love for two-dimensional characters is enough of a phenomenon to have earned its own slang word, moe, homonymous with the Japanese words for “burning” or “budding.” In an ideal moe relationship, a man frees himself from the expectations of an ordinary human relationship and expresses his passion for a chosen character, without fear of being judged or rejected.

“It’s enlightenment training,” Takuro Morinaga, one of Japan’s leading behavioral economists, told me. “It’s like becoming a Buddha.” According to Morinaga, every male otaku can be classified on a moe scale. “On one end, you have the normal guy, who has no interest in anime characters and only likes human women,” he explained. “The opposite end, of course, is the hard-core 2-D lover.” Morinaga, a self-described otaku, didn’t have much luck with women until he became a well-regarded economist. Now he has a wife and a private office in a fancy apartment building near ritzy Tokyo Bay. “I’m a 2 — I still like human women better,” he said, a wide grin forming. “But there are many men who are on the opposite side of the scale. I understand their feelings completely. These guys don’t want to push ahead in society; they just want to create their own little flower-bed world and live there peacefully.”

For Nisan, who would probably score an 8 or a 9 on Morinaga’s moe scale, 2-D love is a substitute for real, monogamous romance. For others, just as fanatic as he, it can be a way of having more than one girlfriend at a time. Whatever a particular 2-D lover’s bent, there is a product made for him. Moe subculture has spawned a substantial market of goods centered on the desire to live in 2-D, from virtual girlfriends to body pillows to busty desktop-size figurines to cafes with waitresses dressed up as video-game characters. Every day, 2-D lovers come from all over Japan to Tokyo’s Akihabara district just to scour specialty shops and attend fan events in search of new character girlfriends to add to their collections.

I first met Ken Okayama one brisk and unusually windy Sunday morning in February, in front of a towering business hotel adjacent to Akihabara station. A tall and rather good-looking 38-year-old man, Okayama lives with relatives and works at a rural paint-application company in western Japan. He flies to Tokyo two to three times a year for the newest anime-related paraphernalia. “We don’t get a lot of anime in the boonies,” he said as he led me through a maze of nearly identical, unnamed side streets to the Gee! Store, sandwiched between a nondescript apartment building and a row of coin-operated lockers in a narrow alley. The walls were covered with kitschy posters, pillows and paraphernalia featuring wide-eyed, multicolor-haired anime girls in frilly panties and bikini tops. “There are two things you should be mindful of when buying a body pillow,” Okayama whispered as we combed the aisles, trying not to disturb the handful of other men perusing the merchandise. “First, there’s image quality. And then you have to choose one that feels good on the skin.” Polyester, for example, is less desirable than smooth knit.

Okayama was an early adopter of 2-D. He discovered anime about two decades ago when he was new to the work force and feeling suicidal. “I was having a lot of trouble,” he told me over coffee, making a slicing gesture with his hand by his neck. That’s when he encountered Sasami, a blue-haired, 10-year-old cartoon character from the anime “Tenchi Muyo!”

She lifted him right out of his misery. “It’s hard to explain in words, but it’s a feeling similar to romance. Sasami gave me the will to keep going.” Since then, Okayama has turned to 2-D for all his emotional needs — the desire to buy new anime helped him get through a period of unemployment in 2003, and his body-pillow girlfriends, whom he dates two or three at a time, consoled him when his first real-life girlfriend dumped him in 2007.

“I was steps away from getting married,” he explained earnestly when prodded about his experience. “You have to make sure you don’t hurt a real person; you have to watch what you say, and you have to keep your room clean. In Japan, it’s not O.K. to like another person if you’re already with somebody else. With an anime character, you can like one character one day and a different character the next.”

Okayama’s flings were unconsummated, but for others 2-D love is a full-fledged alternative sexual lifestyle. Several hours after parting with Okayama in Akihabara, I met Momo at a fan convention. Momo, who makes X-rated body-pillow covers and sells them through his one-man club, Youkouro, which translates roughly as Furnace of Child Love, was there on business. The convention was being held inside a stuffy warehouse filled with boxes of 8-by-10, pamphlet-style, home-brewed manga and swarmed with thousands of anime fetishists, mostly men. Many 2-D lovers are unsatisfied with what the market has to offer, so they custom-make their own fantasy goods and come to conventions to barter and socialize with the like-minded. We left the warehouse and made our way to a fancy shopping mall, where we sat down on a bench. Momo began to flip through a catalog of more than a dozen prints of prepubescent anime characters with giant doe eyes in erotic poses. I flinched when a 5-year-old girl and her father plopped down behind us, but if Momo felt uneasy, he didn’t show it. On the contrary, he seemed giddy from the great sales he’d made. “I sold four pillow covers today,” he said proudly.

Momo, whose real name is Toru Taima, has more than 150 body-pillow covers at home. His current favorite is Karada-chan, a copper-haired sixth grader from the anime “A Direction in the Day After Tomorrow.” She’s fully clothed in the cartoon, but in Momo’s imagination and thus on his pillow cover, she appears naked, her cheeks flushed, her prepubescent nipples hidden by her forearms, her white panties rolled down to her ankles. A translucent square etched onto the pillow cover censors her hairless vagina.

Every night, Karada-chan and at least two other animated preteens, drawn with large pink nipples and exaggerated labia, share a mattress with Momo, one on each side and another on top. “They’re so cute, I can’t stand it,” he said shyly. “It’s like my favorite girl comes to marry me every night. I just can’t stop thinking about them.” When Momo talks about Karada-chan, his mousy face lights up like a kid opening Christmas presents. “Her existence to me is like daughter, younger sister and bride all put into one.” Does he have sex with her? “Yes.” Is he interested in real women? “It’s not like I’m completely uninterested. But the last girl I really liked was when I was 12 years old.”

Momo told me he never looks at child porn. He lives with his sister and his 3-year-old niece, whom he insists he has no sexual feelings for. “I am not doing anything to harm anybody,” he said adamantly. “To me, these are works of art. They’re cute girls that live in my imagination.”

Momo says he hopes that one day soon, there will be a 3-D version of Karada-chan. In March, Japan’s National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology unveiled a 5-foot-2, 95-pound girl robot made “for entertainment purposes,” with an anime face and human proportions. The robot girl walked, batted her eyelashes and spoke basic Japanese. Momo is hopeful and confident that, in the very near future, this technology will be marketed. “I don’t care if people understand or not,” Momo said. “I just want them to leave me alone. I don’t have any nostalgia for reality. I’m happy living in the 2-D world.”

But not all 2-D lovers, as Toru Honda recognized, are ready to cast reality aside entirely. I couldn’t help remembering what Nisan told me, Nemutan held tightly in his left arm, as we walked out of the restaurant to the parking lot. “Of course I want to get married,” he said as we drove back to West Hachioji station listening to his favorite Eurobeat CD. “But look at me. How can someone who carries this around get married? People are probably wondering what psychiatric ward I escaped from. I would think the same thing if I saw me.” He widened his eyes in self-ridicule, then, the next moment, his expression became somber. “I’m pretty conflicted inside. People say there are some otaku who don’t want to get married, but that’s not true. Some have so little confidence that they’ve just given up, but deep inside their souls, they want it just as much as anybody else.”

If he ever does find true three-dimensional love, Nisan said, he hopes that his wife will accept Nemutan for who she is: “She is my life’s work. I would be devastated if that was taken away from me.”

Jul 28, 2009#2

Denbrought

Read this a day or two ago, fairly interesting but would you mind writing something more after or before the quote to show what you intend to discuss about the article?

Jul 28, 2009#3

JCM

Okaaaay, how about "what the hell is this doing in The New York Times"?

Jul 28, 2009#4

Denbrought

People love to read about japan embracing the next level of 'weirdness' in human behaviour. NYTimes delivers gladly :3

Jul 28, 2009#5

@Li3n

seen a pic of this on moti-fake a while back... someone need to make a charity to raise hooker money for these guys...

Jul 28, 2009#6

Thread Necromancer

WTF is in your sig JCM?!?!?!

oh, the article, tl;dr. otherwise, just based on the picture and the one line I caught about him having a girlfriend that left him... well, it's all kinds of fucked up.

Jul 28, 2009#7

T

The Messiah

Long post is long.

Also, ewww!

Jul 28, 2009#8

Wahad

Inb4 Eljuski screaming ''Moonpeople!"

Jul 28, 2009#9

ElJuski

MOONPEOPLE :angry:

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:58 am --

close call wahad.

Jul 28, 2009#10

Aisaku

I see... my future :Leyla:

....

But I'm damn sure I won't be parading it for the people to see.

:tumbleweed:

Jul 28, 2009#11

rac3r_x

We need a bigger version of :Leyla:

Also 37 and still living with his parents :Leyla:

, yeah more problems there than just being in love with a pillow.

Jul 28, 2009#12

Cajungal

Jul 28, 2009#13

Gusto

:bush:

Jul 28, 2009#14

T

The Messiah

rac3r_x said:
Also 37 and still living with his parents , yeah more problems there than just being in love with a pillow.

Yeah, that's... Boy what a loser. Glad I'm 36 :waah:

Jul 28, 2009#15

Cat

Jul 28, 2009#16

rac3r_x

Cat said:

Excellent.

Jul 28, 2009#17

Chibibar

let the guy be. If he loves a pillow... then so be it.

I can totally see Japan embrace the world's first fully feature holodeck (and Shego)

hell, I'll join in for some 3-D/2-D fun with a fully function holodeck (wouldn't that be an expansion of 2-D to 3-D love? I mean the holodeck would simulate "real people" but in reality they are just pixels after all.)

Jul 28, 2009#18

sixpackshaker

Where is the "Ronery, so ronery" Motivational posters that star him?

Jul 28, 2009#19

Fun Size

Chibibar said:
I can totally see Japan embrace the world's first fully feature holodeck (and Shego)

I'm pretty sure Japan would get it's ass kicked if it tried to embrace Shego.

Jul 28, 2009#20

Aisaku

Chibibar said:
*, I'll join in for some 3-D/2-D fun with a fully function holodeck (wouldn't that be an expansion of 2-D to 3-D love? I mean the holodeck would simulate "real people" but in reality they are just pixels after all.)

YES HOLODECK NAO!

Jul 28, 2009#21

Cajungal

Chibibar said:
let the guy be. If he loves a pillow... then so be it.

He's regressed back to toddlerhood/early childhood, where you give inanimate objects human feelings. :bush: Which, I must admit, won't hurt anyone else in the end, I guess.

Jul 28, 2009#22

sixpackshaker

I'd be afraid to wave an ultraviolet light over that pillow...

Jul 28, 2009#23

Aisaku

Cajungal said:
Chibibar said:

let the guy be. If he loves a pillow... then so be it.

Click to expand...

He's regressed back to toddlerhood/early childhood, where you give inanimate objects human feelings. :bush: Which, I must admit, won't hurt anyone else in the end, I guess.

I never saw it that way... But yeah you're right. Otaku et all are child like in far too many aspects...

Jul 28, 2009#24

Cajungal

Aisaku said:
Cajungal said:

Chibibar said:

let the guy be. If he loves a pillow... then so be it.

Click to expand...

He's regressed back to toddlerhood/early childhood, where you give inanimate objects human feelings. :bush: Which, I must admit, won't hurt anyone else in the end, I guess.

Click to expand...

I never saw it that way... But yeah you're right. Otaku et all are child like in far too many aspects...

That's my major talking. For the past couple of years I've been learning about theories of the stages of childhood. And I think it's Piaget who said that animism is a common attribute in young children. It's not harmful, but it's something you're supposed to disappear with emotional maturity and cognitive development.

This fella doesn't have to worry about the complexities of a real relationship. He's only damaging his future chances of connecting with others.

Jul 28, 2009#25

Chibibar

Aisaku said:
Cajungal said:

Chibibar said:

let the guy be. If he loves a pillow... then so be it.

Click to expand...

He's regressed back to toddlerhood/early childhood, where you give inanimate objects human feelings. :bush: Which, I must admit, won't hurt anyone else in the end, I guess.

Click to expand...

I never saw it that way... But yeah you're right. Otaku et all are child like in far too many aspects...

as long he keeps it with his pillow... then so be it.

If he start chasing little girls, that is a whole different ballgame, but according to the article these type of people (2-D lovers as they call it) tend to stick to 2-D so I think this guy is probably harmless and let him be. He is happy.

Fun Size: LOL!!! yea... it would be painful to embrace Shego.. I meant that Shego would embrace and welcome a fully function holodeck

Jul 28, 2009#26

drawn_inward

People seem to be regressing further and further away from reality. Face-to-face human interaction will be a thing of the past before too long. I think it is a symptom of an isolated society. Poor guy.

Jul 28, 2009#27

Chippy

Heh. Ew.

Jul 28, 2009#28

sixpackshaker

drawn_inward said:
People seem to be regressing further and further away from reality. Face-to-face human interaction will be a thing of the past before too long. I think it is a symptom of an isolated society. Poor guy.

The guy seems to have developmental issues. I don't think he is isolated, he just seems unable to connect with peers.

Jul 28, 2009#29

chakz

There's a really bad domestic violence joke in there somewere, but I'm not going to make it.

Jul 28, 2009#30

Chibibar

chakz said:
There's a really bad domestic violence joke in there somewere, but I'm not going to make it.

PILLOW FIGHT!!!

oh no!! you killed her! (when pillow breaks)

Jul 28, 2009#31

cvgurau

If one gets too faded and dirty from overuse, he layers a new one over it.

Jul 28, 2009#32

Allen, who is Quiet

So if the pillow tears and some of the stuffing falls out onto the guy, does that mean she went down on him?

Jul 28, 2009#33

Chibibar

Allen said:
So if the pillow tears and some of the stuffing falls out onto the guy, does that mean she went down on him?

I'll say you need to add a little more fluff to that.

Jul 28, 2009#34

chakz

Chibibar said:
chakz said:

There's a really bad domestic violence joke in there somewere, but I'm not going to make it.

Click to expand...

PILLOW FIGHT!!!

oh no!! you killed her! (when pillow breaks)

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of "so does he still punch a pillow when he gets mad?"

Jul 28, 2009#35

ElJuski

Chibibar said:
chakz said:

There's a really bad domestic violence joke in there somewere, but I'm not going to make it.

Click to expand...

PILLOW FIGHT!!!

oh no!! you killed her! (when pillow breaks)

Chibi, I am glad you clarified about the whole pillow breaking part.

Jul 28, 2009#36

Shegokigo

Jul 28, 2009#37

figmentPez

Shegokigo said:

I think that's the image you were trying to link.

Jul 28, 2009#38

Jake

ElJuski said:
Chibibar said:

chakz said:

There's a really bad domestic violence joke in there somewere, but I'm not going to make it.

Click to expand...

PILLOW FIGHT!!!

oh no!! you killed her! (when pillow breaks)

Click to expand...

Chibi, I am glad you clarified about the whole pillow breaking part.

I think his posts could have benefited from subtitles for some time now.

Jul 28, 2009#39

Twitch

Jake said:
ElJuski said:

Chibibar said:

chakz said:

There's a really bad domestic violence joke in there somewere, but I'm not going to make it.

Click to expand...

PILLOW FIGHT!!!

oh no!! you killed her! (when pillow breaks)

Click to expand...

Chibi, I am glad you clarified about the whole pillow breaking part.

Click to expand...

I think his posts could have benefited from subtitles for some time now.

Can't blame him for speaking the second language.

Jul 28, 2009#40

Chibibar

Twitch said:
Jake said:

ElJuski said:

Chibibar said:

PILLOW FIGHT!!!

oh no!! you killed her! (when pillow breaks)

Click to expand...

Chibi, I am glad you clarified about the whole pillow breaking part.

Click to expand...

I think his posts could have benefited from subtitles for some time now.

Click to expand...

Can't blame him for speaking the second language.

I have been flamed for not being clear or people not understanding or getting what I'm trying to say.

I'm just covering my butt and try to be clear as much as possible.

Jul 28, 2009#41

Allen, who is Quiet

juski just wants to look at your butt uncovered

Jul 28, 2009#42

Chibibar

Allen said:
juski just wants to look at your butt uncovered

It is gonna cost him

Jul 28, 2009#43

North_Ranger

...

Well, glad to know there's people more fucked-up relationships-wise than yours truly.

Jul 28, 2009#44

ElJuski

North_Ranger said:
...

Well, glad to know there's people more fucked-up relationships-wise than yours truly.

Go read Savage Love sometime.

Jul 28, 2009#45

Alucard

Way to go for an established news paper to hit an all time low

Jul 28, 2009#46

Philosopher B.

Nisan didn’t mean to fall in love with Nemutan.

Nisan had a real-life girlfriend who left him, something Nemutan isn’t likely to do.

Nemutan doesn’t really have a leg. She’s a stuffed pillowcase — a 2-D depiction of a character, Nemu, from an X-rated version of a PC video game called Da Capo, printed on synthetic fabric.

:bush:

Nemutan is 10, maybe 12 years old and wears a little blue bikini and gold ribbons in her hair.

If one gets too faded and dirty from overuse, he layers a new one over it.

Nisan is part of a thriving subculture of men and women in Japan who indulge in real relationships with imaginary characters.

:waah:

If he ever does find true three-dimensional love, Nisan said, he hopes that his wife will accept Nemutan for who she is: “She is my life’s work. I would be devastated if that was taken away from me.”

Jul 28, 2009#47

Lally

I like to think I'm accepting of "alternative" lifestyles... I'm never really bothered by people who are what others call deviants unless something/someone innocent gets hurt by it (the reason I've never really been squicked out by furries like others are). If this dude, and other dudes like him, want to love characters and the pillows that represent them, that's their business (I'll admit I went through an "in love with a fictional character" phase... but that was when I was like 13/14). But what I DO find creepy about this particular dude is that he nicknamed himself "Nisan," as in "oniisan" the nickname for "big brother" (which is does point out in the article). For some reason that is creepy to me. I guess I'm not as accepting as I like to think I am...

Jul 28, 2009#48

Cajungal

I think it's okay to be creeped out by something like this. Try tolerance. It's acceptance lite.

Jul 28, 2009#49

chakz

Lally said:
I like to think I'm accepting of "alternative" lifestyles... I'm never really bothered by people who are what others call deviants unless something/someone innocent gets hurt by it (the reason I've never really been squicked out by furries like others are). If this dude, and other dudes like him, want to love characters and the pillows that represent them, that's their business (I'll admit I went through an "in love with a fictional character" phase... but that was when I was like 13/14). But what I DO find creepy about this particular dude is that he nicknamed himself "Nisan," as in "oniisan" the nickname for "big brother" (which is does point out in the article). For some reason that is creepy to me. I guess I'm not as accepting as I like to think I am...

I'm going with "There's alternative lifestyles, and there's personality disorders." I'm thinking this is the result of a personality disorder. If you actually believe that you can be "in love" with a fictional character and have a full relationship with them. Then you have a problem relating to people and you need some kind of help. This man is obviously extremely lonely and seems to be to insecure to attempt a normal relationship. This is a very disturbing trend, if not for its very nature, then for it is a sign of.

Jul 28, 2009#50

figmentPez

Lally said:
I like to think I'm accepting of "alternative" lifestyles... I'm never really bothered by people who are what others call deviants unless something/someone innocent gets hurt by it (the reason I've never really been squicked out by furries like others are). If this dude, and other dudes like him, want to love characters and the pillows that represent them, that's their business (I'll admit I went through an "in love with a fictional character" phase... but that was when I was like 13/14). But what I DO find creepy about this particular dude is that he nicknamed himself "Nisan," as in "oniisan" the nickname for "big brother" (which is does point out in the article). For some reason that is creepy to me. I guess I'm not as accepting as I like to think I am...

This guy has developed an imaginary, sexual, relationship with his idealized version of a 10 - 12 year-old girl. What happens if his delusion slips from an attachment to a pillow to a real child?

Jul 28, 2009#51

Allen, who is Quiet

figmentPez said:
Lally said:

I like to think I'm accepting of "alternative" lifestyles... I'm never really bothered by people who are what others call deviants unless something/someone innocent gets hurt by it (the reason I've never really been squicked out by furries like others are). If this dude, and other dudes like him, want to love characters and the pillows that represent them, that's their business (I'll admit I went through an "in love with a fictional character" phase... but that was when I was like 13/14). But what I DO find creepy about this particular dude is that he nicknamed himself "Nisan," as in "oniisan" the nickname for "big brother" (which is does point out in the article). For some reason that is creepy to me. I guess I'm not as accepting as I like to think I am...

Click to expand...

This guy has developed an imaginary, sexual, relationship with his idealized version of a 10 - 12 year-old girl. What happens if his delusion slips from an attachment to a pillow to a real child?

I thought they meant the pillow was 10-12 years old.

Looking at the wiki, it appears that the character is actually 14-15. Which is still pretty bad.

Jul 28, 2009#52

Lally

figmentPez said:
This guy has developed an imaginary, sexual, relationship with his idealized version of a 10 - 12 year-old girl. What happens if his delusion slips from an attachment to a pillow to a real child?

You can call me just as delusional as him, and I have no evidence whatsoever to support how I feel, but I just don't think that is the case with these "2-D lover" guys. I can't speak for everyone, but I'd be willing to bet that almost everyone has some sort of erotic fantasy that they would never really act out, for whatever reason, whether it's illegal or they are just too scared to try it. And half of anime girls look like they're ten anyway, the rest of them just have gigantic boobs.

chakz said:
I'm going with "There's alternative lifestyles, and there's personality disorders." I'm thinking this is the result of a personality disorder. If you actually believe that you can be "in love" with a fictional character and have a full relationship with them. Then you have a problem relating to people and you need some kind of help. This man is obviously extremely lonely and seems to be to insecure to attempt a normal relationship. This is a very disturbing trend, if not for its very nature, then for it is a sign of.

I might be persuaded to agree that it's a personality disorder or a mental illness (not sure if I feel that way, but I can see where the argument can be made), but I would definitely agree that these must be very lonely people. Like I said above, I genuinely feel that in the vast majority of these guys, they are not going to become predators of real life children (at least, not in any higher proportion than "3-D lovers" do. So, while some might feel it's not good for them to live like this, it's ultimately up to them to decide how they want to live their life and if they want to seek therapy/treatment.

I dunno. Even as I type this I'm wondering why I'm defending these guys. I really don't know why I am. I guess I just feel bad for them. They're already messed up enough without everyone piling on them about their weird kinks.

Jul 29, 2009#53

SeraRelm

People do weird stuff. As long as no one gets hurt by it, whatever.

And I like to think I poke fun at furries for (usually) being whiny and self deceiving about it. :moon:

-- Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:23 am --

Additionally: I should have said "as long as no one or no pillows get hurt"

Jul 29, 2009#54

Shegokigo

figmentPez said:
This guy has developed an imaginary, sexual, relationship with his idealized version of a 10 - 12 year-old girl. What happens if his delusion slips from an attachment to a pillow to a real child?

Not gonna happen, they have no attraction to 3-D women. Read the article, you'll hear about the "Father of 2D love" admitting to having seen some real life porn and he was booed by his 2D love fans pretty heavily.

Jul 29, 2009#55

SeraRelm

I'm not sayin'...

I'm just sayin'.

Jul 29, 2009#56

figmentPez

Shegokigo said:
Not gonna happen, they have no attraction to 3-D women. Read the article, you'll hear about the "Father of 2D love" admitting to having seen some real life porn and he was booed by his 2D love fans pretty heavily.

Booed because of their ideals, or because of their actual feelings? While you do bring up a good point, that cartoon is very different from reality, and it is plausible that a person could be so fixated on cartoon that they don't find reality attractive at all, I'm not sure this is necessarily the case in every situation.

Jul 29, 2009#57

Aisaku

While I understand where 2-D lovers are coming from, I'm not as far gone to say this is something acceptable. It isn't and if it turns into something harmful to others, stopped immediately.

Just for those extreme, unsolvable cases, people who will refuse help even if offered to them directly, this might be some sort of solace, a way their mind copes with the idea of a lonely life.

Jul 29, 2009#58

bhamv3

You know, I can totally understand this guy's feelings. On the scale mentioned in the article, I might be somewhere around a 4.

The human mating dance can be incredibly complicated, and not everyone comes out unscathed. Can't blame a guy for not wanting to go through all that.

Also, now I finally know who's the guy from the motivational poster!

Jul 29, 2009#59

Rob King

figmentPez said:
Shegokigo said:

Not gonna happen, they have no attraction to 3-D women. Read the article, you'll hear about the "Father of 2D love" admitting to having seen some real life porn and he was booed by his 2D love fans pretty heavily.

Click to expand...

Booed because of their ideals, or because of their actual feelings? While you do bring up a good point, that cartoon is very different from reality, and it is plausible that a person could be so fixated on cartoon that they don't find reality attractive at all, I'm not sure this is necessarily the case in every situation.

This is a fairly pervasive theme in science fiction, but every time I think about it, it's a concept I want to explore more: the idea of people being so satisfied or intrigued by something simulated, that they cease to care about real life.

My intro to Philosophy class spent several classes discussing 'The Holodeck Problem.' General consensus was, if we all lived in Star Trek, the only time we would leave the holodeck was to protect the holodeck from holodeck-less people who wanted to kill us and take our holodeck.

To get back to the guy we're discussing, he has a deliciously convenient reality. The pillow never wants to do something you don't want to do. The pillow never says no to what you want to do. Other people might ridicule you, but the pillow is ever-faithful. And as one-sided as that is, that sounds like a fairly hollywood version of love if you replace 'the pillow' with 'your soulmate.'

If that's what he's feeling, fake though it is, I'm not sure I can really knock it. After all, I would spend my life on the holodeck too, if I had the power.

Jul 29, 2009#60

Shegokigo

Rob King said:
If that's what he's feeling, fake though it is, I'm not sure I can really knock it. After all, I would spend my life on the holodeck too, if I had the power.

Difference between what a holodeck is and this guy, is the holodeck would be able to simulate reflected feelings, emotions and give simulated physical feelings in return. 2D lovers have completely one sided relationships.

Jul 29, 2009#61

Allen, who is Quiet

Shegokigo said:
Rob King said:

If that's what he's feeling, fake though it is, I'm not sure I can really knock it. After all, I would spend my life on the holodeck too, if I had the power.

Click to expand...

Difference between what a holodeck is and this guy, is the holodeck would be able to simulate reflected feelings, emotions and give simulated physical feelings in return. 2D lovers have completely one sided relationships.

especially when you consider his pillow is in love with its older brother

Jul 29, 2009#62

ElJuski

Once again, at least he's fucking a pillow, and not like, a dog, or a little boy.

I can tolerate this weirdo because whatever, its not affecting my life. But shit is way weird on the weird, abnormal behavior scale. Oh well, his life, not mine.

Jul 29, 2009#63

Rob King

Shegokigo said:
Rob King said:

If that's what he's feeling, fake though it is, I'm not sure I can really knock it. After all, I would spend my life on the holodeck too, if I had the power.

Click to expand...

Difference between what a holodeck is and this guy, is the holodeck would be able to simulate reflected feelings, emotions and give simulated physical feelings in return. 2D lovers have completely one sided relationships.

That's why he can get away with it and I couldn't. I can't delude myself into thinking that a pillow has feelings, and is actually interacting with me. He can. I find it sad from where I stand, but looking at it from his experience, where this thing isn't just a pillow, he's living the dream.

He must find it sad that I can't see the pillow the same way that he does. I have to muck about with the previously mentioned overly-complicated human mating dance.

I sort of envy him in the same way that I envy lifelong welfare-drawing burdens-on-society for their complete lack of shame for being such a burden. Being a fully functional human being is truly a cross to bear, a cross that this 2d lover guy hasn't been given.

Wow, that sounds way more fascist than I intended.

Jul 29, 2009#64

JCM

Jul 29, 2009#65

Chibibar

Allen said:
Shegokigo said:

[quote="Rob King":1ny3oala]
If that's what he's feeling, fake though it is, I'm not sure I can really knock it. After all, I would spend my life on the holodeck too, if I had the power.

Click to expand...

Difference between what a holodeck is and this guy, is the holodeck would be able to simulate reflected feelings, emotions and give simulated physical feelings in return. 2D lovers have completely one sided relationships.

especially when you consider his pillow is in love with its older brother[/quote:1ny3oala]

Well.... even if it is a holodeck, it is not much different than a pillow per se. Both are not real. Reflecting emotion is only emulation, maybe this guy imagination can see, hear, feel the "reflecting emotion" from the pillow too. I don't know. He is happy with his pillow. Let him be.

Wasn't there an episode (dang I can't remember the show, it was a submarine that enter a time portal or some such) where people practically died off cause people were attach to virtual world and play games. It turn out a boy and a girl were fighting each other all along (playing the VR game) which the fight takes place in real life. They had to stop playing and meet each other and hope to rebuilt the human race with other loner/players out there.

I can totally see the holodeck can be a bad thing. I mean even in Star Trek, there was couple of episode of a person hooked on it (Reggie is his name I think)

Jul 29, 2009#66

Shegokigo

Is the Holodeck bad? Of course, it's one of the biggest reasons we don't have VR yet. It's too much of a good thing.

Jul 29, 2009#67

Jake

SeraRelm said:
I poke ... furries

Jul 29, 2009#68

SeraRelm

Jake said:
I fornicate with dead baby animals because I'm such a pathetic excuse for a human being, I've no other outlet.

Jul 29, 2009#69

JCM

SeraRelm said:
I rub against Ed´s false teeth with baby oil

Jul 29, 2009#70

Jake

SeraRelm said:
Jake said:

I fornicate with dead baby animals because I'm such a pathetic excuse for a human being, I've no other outlet.

Click to expand...

I don't specifically recall saying that, but I guess it's possible. In character, certainly.

Jul 29, 2009#71

SeraRelm

JCM said:
I'm doing what I always do, nothing new to see. I'll keep doing it anyway, will you please look at me?

Jul 29, 2009#72

chakz

Lally said:
figmentPez said:

This guy has developed an imaginary, sexual, relationship with his idealized version of a 10 - 12 year-old girl. What happens if his delusion slips from an attachment to a pillow to a real child?

Click to expand...

You can call me just as delusional as him, and I have no evidence whatsoever to support how I feel, but I just don't think that is the case with these "2-D lover" guys. I can't speak for everyone, but I'd be willing to bet that almost everyone has some sort of erotic fantasy that they would never really act out, for whatever reason, whether it's illegal or they are just too scared to try it. And half of anime girls look like they're ten anyway, the rest of them just have gigantic boobs.

chakz said:

I'm going with "There's alternative lifestyles, and there's personality disorders." I'm thinking this is the result of a personality disorder. If you actually believe that you can be "in love" with a fictional character and have a full relationship with them. Then you have a problem relating to people and you need some kind of help. This man is obviously extremely lonely and seems to be to insecure to attempt a normal relationship. This is a very disturbing trend, if not for its very nature, then for it is a sign of.

Click to expand...

I might be persuaded to agree that it's a personality disorder or a mental illness (not sure if I feel that way, but I can see where the argument can be made), but I would definitely agree that these must be very lonely people. Like I said above, I genuinely feel that in the vast majority of these guys, they are not going to become predators of real life children (at least, not in any higher proportion than "3-D lovers" do. So, while some might feel it's not good for them to live like this, it's ultimately up to them to decide how they want to live their life and if they want to seek therapy/treatment.

I dunno. Even as I type this I'm wondering why I'm defending these guys. I really don't know why I am. I guess I just feel bad for them. They're already messed up enough without everyone piling on them about their weird kinks.

I wouldn't think of it as a defense/attack situation. I believe we are merely discussing the exact context of the situation. I agree that you cannot necessarily force them to change. But I do not think this should be accepted by society at large as anything but unhealthy behavior.

Jul 29, 2009#73

ElJuski

ElJuski said:
Oh lord help me from that awful group sex

Jul 29, 2009#74

JCM

SeraRelm said:

Jul 29, 2009#75

SeraRelm

JCM said:

Jul 29, 2009#76

JCM

SeraRelm said:

Jul 29, 2009#77

SeraRelm

JCM said:

Jul 29, 2009#78

Chibibar

JCM: remember aliens HAVE visited in Archie Comic

maybe those are alien hose

Jul 29, 2009#79

MindDetective

ElJuski said:
I'm a mod and I don't know how to fake quotes!

:toocool:

Jul 29, 2009#80

ElJuski

MindDetective said:
ElJuski said:

I'm a mod and I don't know how to fake quotes!

Click to expand...

:toocool:

oh shiii

Jul 29, 2009#81

Bubble181

a) @the quotes: :rofl:

b) @the article: Eh...It's sad, perhaps, but somewhat understandable

c) @the 10-year-olds....See, this I actually find somewhat disturbing. Not because I think they'll switch over to real girls that age, but...Really. There are only two types of girls in anime anyway, and I dislike both, butI think I'd still rather see them go for one of the DoA-Beach-Volleyvall-girls.

d) @whoever talked about animism: First off, they don't (all) claim the pillows love them back. Au contraire; the main person clearly states it's simply his love for the character. The claim isn't that the anime girl loves them; merely that they've fallen in love with an anime character...Which isn't, on the surface, that odd (surely most people have had a bit of a crush on some imaginarey character or other. James Bond, for all I care. Or Uhura or 7 of 9, for the nerdy men amongst us :-P). The second part of their claim is that this one-sided love is as real an emotion as that of anyone living someone. This...I dunno about. I do have to point out, though, that people "truely love" plenty of pets. And I'm not talking the creepy porn way (dammit internet!), I mean the "my dogs really are my children" way. We can argue till the cows come home, and I'll happily agree animals *do* have realy feelings, but still, it's not the same thing as a reciprocal relationship with a real human being. It's just a couple of steps further down that line.

e) About the state of our society: I do agree this si just further proof that our society is slowly killing itself and all human interaction. *sigh*

Jul 29, 2009#82

Cajungal

Bubble, while it's true he admits that she is not real, the main part that made me bring up animism was that he was careful not to touch the image's private area when carrying it or putting her in a seat. He's developed enough mentally to not really believe that doing so would "offend" it, but he does anyway. He's treating a 2-dimensional image with the care that you're expected to treat a living, breathing person. And I'll bet if someone tried to touch it in a way he thought was inappropriate, he wouldn't be happy.

He knows that a picture of a girl can't actually enjoy going out on weekends or eating at a restaurant, but he takes the thing around anyway--doing things with it that one would do with a real person--things they would enjoy. It's done for his benefit, not because he can't understand. So, true, it's not the same thing that children do with their toys, because he is aware that none of it is real. I don't know enough about it to know whether it has to be involuntary to count.

Jul 29, 2009#83

Bubble181

Well...I still say it's closer to what people do with their dogs. Some people really do stupid $beep$ with their dogs :-P

Jul 29, 2009#84

Cajungal

But the dog's alive. If you punch the pillow, it won't feel anything. If you punch a dog, it's going to feel pain.

I don't deny that people probably assign their pets feelings that they don't necessarily have, but dogs are alive. They get hungry, tired, thirsty, etc. It's more natural to get emotionally attached to something that shows something at least akin to affection and depends on you.

Jul 30, 2009#85

A

A dark horse

Well this certainly can't help Japan's declining birth rate. If they disappear it will definitely be sad, I mean who else will build our giant building crushing robots ?

Jul 30, 2009#86

@Li3n

Cajungal said:
So, true, it's not the same thing that children do with their toys, because he is aware that none of it is real.

Oh yeah, i totally remember when i though that my toy plane could actually fly... at about the same time i jumped of the roof thinking i was Superman... my burial was pretty nice.

Jul 30, 2009#87

edzepp

ElJuski said:
ElJuski said:

Oh lord spare me from that awful group sex

Click to expand...

That's better.

Jul 30, 2009#88

Chibibar

A dark horse said:
Well this certainly can't help Japan's declining birth rate. If they disappear it will definitely be sad, I mean who else will build our giant building crushing robots ?

I'm still waiting for a sexbot that clean house

hey.. what? double benefit!

Aug 25, 2009#89

JCM

This thread is like a bad hangover/deja vu

Aug 25, 2009#90

Andromache

i just read the story on the first page.

i feel really really bad for that guy. sure, he's an easy target because he's a harmless loser, but I feel really bad for him anyway. And as long as he's not a rapist, more power to him, I guess.

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