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While it may not be a "WoW-Killer", as WoW will always have a larger fanbase and advertising department, I've come to realize that Aion is by far larger than WoW in scope, visuals (especially), imagination, and most of all isn't hindered by alot of WoW's consistant problems.



Just left me awe-struck. I think it's time to delve back in.

Wanna know what's always bothered me? When a game runs choppy during a video meant to impress me on it's visuals. If they can't get it running smoothly for an attract video it always leads me to believe what chance do I have?

Looks great, plays... meh.

ScytheRexx said:

Looks great, plays... meh.

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^Yep. I got about 3 weeks in and just got bored.

Okay, visuals aside (because it does look great) The game play teasers they were showing look equally amazing. Looks like you can build your own buildings (to a point I assume), mounts are just something you beat up and ride off on, and all other forms of completely massive transportation devices (mecha, air ships, boats).

2 big questions jump out at me when I look at a new MMO...

1- Do I need a new supercomputer to run it?
Conan had this problem, and a lot of other games do it too. "We look better then WoW's cartoony graphics!!" Well, I'll tell ya, I have a problem with 'realistic' graphics.

Looking at Everquest 1 & 2, sure it looks great, but the repetitive animations with realistic look ends up looking retarded to me. Like the character is in some mental loop he can't get out of. Plus the way the characters mesh with everything else, just doesn't seem to fit. Feet don't seem like they're really touching the ground. Colliding with mounts, armor, weapons and other gear.

WoW's cartoony graphics, limited as they are, at least look & feel right.

2- Are my friends playing it?
I don't mean 1 or 2. I mean a lot of them. A good core of them. Am I going to be going into another MMO as the first person in my group of friends, testing the waters, and trying to get a foothold? No? Then I'll stick to WoW. At least there, I've got all the build up and start up resources I need if I want to start over.

Other then that, the houses, boats, all that. That's really cool. However, that's RP elements, which often get lost because the overall goal of these games is to level, gear up, and progress. It's what brings in the (in game) money to afford all the frills of a house, boat, car, air plane, mecha...

Though it looks good, I won't be returning to Aion. PvP in the Abyss was loads of fun for a few weeks, then it got boring. I imagine running into the same with this.

Things that would actually get me into an mmo:

Life in the world. Things move. Animals exist. Even *gasp* ones that don't attack you.

Non-linearity.

Lasting effects of your decisions. If you decide something, it ought to make a difference down the road. Good or bad.

Class differences. I've said plenty about this elsewhere.

Affect the world. If you do something major, it ought to do more than give everyone in Orgrimmar a 1 hour stat boost.

Improve low level content. Make level 1 matter. Actually, this is one place DDO improved the MMO world. You have to play as level 1, and do real things. And the low level quest progression ought to 1) depend on your class -- after all, you're training and 2) not be the same for every freakin' character you make.

Give me control over the moves my character makes in battle. Make it more real-time like a fighting game. I know I'll be universally lampooned for this, but like Prince of Persia 2. Only done right. I also know some will argue that's not RPG like. So what.

Failing that, at least work on animation. When a character suddenly jumps, he/she shouldn't instantly change to jump pose. The fight sequence should vary a little at the very least. If someone has a high AC because of dexterity and not armor, show it.

Practice should matter. WOW does it a little, but it could be improved. Character practice, that is.

STANDARD INTERNET FORUM BOILERPLATE: These are personal opinions which you are free to disagree with. I am in no way implying that these are true for you, nor that I know everything about every MMO. Etc. etc. Requiem in terra pax.

Let me know how it goes Sheg. I have been considering trying it out for a while now, but I do not want to drop 50 bucks for an mmop that gets tiresome after a week.

Fade got me thinking. When i first played Tabula Rasa, i really liked the fact that it was like an MMO FPS..you actually had to aim and shoot. That was a really fun feature of the game, where most mmos just let you select an enemy, hit 'attack' and then the computer takes over.

Unfortunately, tabula rasa was boring as fuck when it came to the leveling-up character development side.

As a HUGE fan of Tabula Rasa, I hear you Tin.

As for Aion? I had played it in Beta and it's come a LONG way as far as playability.

If you want to know if you need a "super computer", I'm currently playing it on a Core 2 DUO E6850 with a Radeon 4980 card and 3gb of RAM. I have my settings nearly all on "one notch below" highest. It runs very smoothly for the most part.

Also, for the comment on a teaser video running slightly choppy? Yeah almost every game I've ever seen that shows off visuals (WoW included) in a teaser seems to have that issue, it's all about how high you want your settings to be, though almost any setting is going to give you jaw dropping visuals in Aion.

Sadly they're not taking trials yet, which is strange as it's been out a small while now.

Yeah, I have been waiting on a trial for a bit now.

Fade does bring many good point.

I believe that players SHOULD influence the outcome of a game. WoW could SO do this. They have made "tier" release depending on players base action. I'm sure other MMO can do something similar or have an event and release new materials toward players base result of their action (i.e. join one faction more than others)

To make matters harder to get people into, the game is still full priced at $49

I've said it before, but any publisher who doesn't release a trial/demo/starter app is losing sales, regardless of what the end user pricing/model is.

I'm tempted by Aion, but until they have a trial, no deal.

I think there is legitimate (business) reason to hold off the downloadable version for the initial release, to increase the sale of actual boxes. But yeah, after two or three months you'd think they'd have a trial up by now.

When people say "it plays boring..." what exactly is boring about it? I mean, WoW consists largely of killing pigs over and over again (until you get to Outland. Then they're demon pigs). The thing that keeps WoW interesting is progression of flashier abilities and new armor, and a halfway decent plot to help you ignore the endless repetition. This game, by all appearances, has flashier stuff (and I assume gets progressively flashier). So the only thing I can think of is that the plot is genuinely terrible, or maybe that it uses way too many time sinks to "balance" things.

Shegokigo said:

Sadly they're not taking trials yet, which is strange as it's been out a small while now.

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In my experience if an MMO is doing well, they usually don't have a free trial for a while. Its only when an MMO is bleeding subscribers is when they break out the free trial this early in a game's life cycle in a desperate attempt to bring in new blood.

If a game is doing well, and it seems Aions is doing pretty good for itself, they probably wont have a tial for at least a couple more months.

Now about the game,

1st, Aion looks awesome. That's really undeniable, the game is beautiful. World is beautiful, animations are great looking, spell effects are great, etc. I was also very surprised at how well it ran, even in busy town areas. It runs much better than you think it would with the visuals it has.

2nd, The classes I played are are fun and well designed, I liked the chain skill system. But there's not as much customability in it's stigma stone system as in WoW's talent trees, or LOTRO's trait system.

3rd, PvP is the heart of Aion. If you don't like PvP don't play. The PvE is fun (better than Warhammer but not as good as WoW or LOTRO) but it's not the main point of the game. What I played of PvP in Aion, I liked. Flying really adds a new level of strategy to PvP. It really puts Warhammer to shame. This is a much better RvR game, period. I think someone who liked DAOC could really enjoy Aion, if they can get through the game's main problem imo, THE GRIND! Yes Aion is a typical Korean grinder MMO. By the time you get to the late 20s quests become sparse and you'll find yourself mindlessly grinding mobs for hours on end. I heard NCSoft has tried to fix the problem by drastically increasing the amount of XP you get from quests (which used to be pretty worthless) but I can't imagine that totally eradicating the grind.

Another crippling problem the game had when I played was a shit-ton of bots and gold sellers. The amount of botting in the game was ridiculous and the chat channels would be clogged with goldseller spam. Now I've heard NCSoft has been cracking down hard on this but I can't verify it's effectiveness as I don't play anymore.

So, in conclusion, If you like RvR and don't mind some grind, pick it up. If you're a PvEer there's better games out there for you.

Raemon777 said:

When people say "it plays boring..." what exactly is boring about it?

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You realize that is not an easy question to explain? I don't know why killing pigs in WoW was more fun years ago then Aion was when I had a chance to try it. Things just annoy me, like limited flight, backwards crafting, and fight effects that become so "flashy" they are ludicrous.

Aion looks like liquid sex, but the visuals of a game to me are not important. The flow, the cohesive design, and the openness to multiple playstyles are what I look for. WoW caters to that, Aion felt lacking like many other that came before it and I was not able to get past that.

This does not mean Aion is a bad game, I felt like giving my opinion about it in simple words, but I don't discourage anyone from giving it a go. You may prefer what it offers.

Now lets see if SW:TOR can live up to the hype. Can't wait to give it a try.

Just curious, how far did you get in Aion Scythe?

Oh and Oddbot, they added thousands of quests to the N_A release. Just fyi. Especially for the 20+

They also massively butchered the Gold Sellers by requiring you to be level 10 (and ascended obviously) before you can send any whispers or get to a place where the majority of players can hear you.

ScytheRexx;313989][quote=Raemon777 said:

When people say "it plays boring..." what exactly is boring about it?

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You realize that is not an easy question to explain? I don't know why killing pigs in WoW was more fun years ago then Aion was when I had a chance to try it. Things just annoy me, like limited flight, backwards crafting, and fight effects that become so "flashy" they are ludicrous.

Aion looks like liquid sex, but the visuals of a game to me are not important. The flow, the cohesive design, and the openness to multiple playstyles are what I look for. WoW caters to that, Aion felt lacking like many other that came before it and I was not able to get past that.

This does not mean Aion is a bad game, I felt like giving my opinion about it in simple words, but I don't discourage anyone from giving it a go. You may prefer what it offers.

Now lets see if SW:TOR can live up to the hype. Can't wait to give it a try.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. I just heard a lot of "it's boring" without any qualifiers.

So far I've been a PvE player, but that's because I've never tried playing on a PvP server and I have no idea whether I'd like it or not. I actually do think visuals are somewhat important to an MMO because of a major draw is the immersive factor. I might have quit WoW if I didn't walk into Orgrimmar for the first time, thinking that that huge gate you saw was the WHOLE city, only to find out it literally was just the door. Dunno whether the liquid sex graphics will be enough to compensate for whatever other flaws it might have.

Hopefully the game will have a free trial sooner rather than later and I can actually judge for myself.

Raemon777 said:

I think there is legitimate (business) reason to hold off the downloadable version for the initial release, to increase the sale of actual boxes.

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oddbot said:

In my experience if an MMO is doing well, they usually don't have a free trial for a while.

Click to expand...

Doing it like that is actually fundamentally unsound as a business reason in a subscription model, where the vast majority of revenue is drawn from subscription fees, not the box sales. This is the same reason that Comcast gives away HBO for a month, magazines give you 75% off the first year, credit report services give you free reports, etc. There's money to be made in the first sale, but it's peanuts compared to what they get from you in subscription, and nothing sells better than a discount/trial/free-demo service.

WoW has made an estimated 280 million in US retail sales for Blizzard since launch in 2004. Double that (probably much too generous), and figure 600 million including the rest of the world (they don't sell retail boxes in China) since 2004.

If you look at their income statements, they're now breaking 1 billion in revenue every single year in subscription fees. It's not even close.

The single sole business reason for an MMO company to not offer a free trial and focus on driving box sales instead of subscriptions is if they can't (or won't) provide a service/product that can sustain the interest of their subscribed user base, and know they can't capture that revenue.

If that's where Aion is right now, that's cool, it takes time to amass the resources to get there, and I wish them all the luck. I would just much rather wait until they're demonstrably comfortable enough in their ability to provide continuous content that they'll give me a a trial.

Shegokigo said:

Just curious, how far did you get in Aion Scythe?

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I will be honest, not far. Due to being broke I often get my MMO play through friends that are also MMOfanatics. One of them is trying out Aion right now and he let me, "ahem" borrow his computer for a few hours. I pretty much do the same with all MMOs, like one of the EverQuest 2 developers let me into that game when it came out for awhile. He was disappointed when I told him I was going to start up WoW in a few weeks. We... don't talk much anymore.

Made an Asmodian Mage, played in Ishalgen and down the line got my wings during that ascending quest, such a pretty game. Flew around for awhile and tried out the gathering, which accounted to finding something and sticking your hand out at it. Then I tried to start Alchemy only for a few crafts to fail, then I remember what I hated about old crafting systems. Think I went into some place called Altgord before I decided I was not really feeling it and let my friend have his account back.

Really I am a person that is not easy to please, it takes a lot to grab me but when a game does, it latches hard. Right now Borderlands is giving me that problem, Hunter's rule.

The single sole business reason for an MMO company to not offer a free trial and focus on driving box sales instead of subscriptions is if they can't (or won't) provide a service/product that can sustain the interest of their subscribed user base, and know they can't capture that revenue.

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But bear in mind, WoW didn't have an initial trial either. I don't think this is just ever MMO business executive being stupid in the exact same way, I think this is a business strategy that is annoying for the consumer but is presumably well tested enough to be reliable. WoW may break a billion dollars every year in subscription fees, but that's WoW. For the average MMO that doesn't KNOW whether they'll be holding on to their subscriber base yet, it probably does make sense to ensure that they at least break even on their box sales.

Me? I probably would have played and maybe even liked Aion if I could have downloaded it, but I also know I probably wouldn't have paid for it after a month because there's a lot of other games I'm interested in and I have limited time to play them all.

Raemon777 said:

WoW may break a billion dollars every year in subscription fees, but that's WoW.

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The point is that the proportion of revenue in subscriptions is an order of magnitude higher than the revenue they make from first sale.

That's how a subscription service works. MMO publishers are wrong on this, and they have the entire history of subscription services to look at that tells them they're wrong.

For the average MMO that doesn't KNOW whether they'll be holding on to their subscriber base yet, it probably does make sense to ensure that they at least break even on their box sales.

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Except that free limited time trials don't cannibalize sales as long as there is value to the product beyond the trial period. That's the whole point of having a free trial.

The idea behind having a subscription-model MMO is to have long-term paying customers. If NCsoft is concerned that people will derive all the possible value out of Aion during a 10-14 day trial, what does that say about the strength of their product as an MMO?

If NCsoft is concerned that people will derive all the possible value out of Aion during a 10-14 day trial, what does that say about the strength of their product as an MMO?

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The same thing Blizzard's lack of initial trial said about the strength of WoW as an MMO?

The question isn't of a lack of quality. The question is how well their long-term quality stacks up against the long term quality of every other MMO on the market and the inertia that earlier games already have. Games like WarCraft II and Red Alert don't have to compete with each other - people can just buy one when they're done with the other. But most people won't maintain more than one or two MMO subscriptions at a time, and with MMOs popping up like rabbits nowadays (even if most of them are crap), the competition is going to be fierce, even if you ignore WoW. For the past few years I've been watching my friends get excited about new MMOs, play them for a few months, then drop them and move on. 60 bucks for a boxed copy is the same as a 4 months subscription which is about how long most people seemed to stick it out with Conan and Warhammer.

ScytheRexx;314031][quote=Shegokigo said:

Just curious, how far did you get in Aion Scythe?

Click to expand...

I will be honest, not far. Due to being broke I often get my MMO play through friends that are also MMOfanatics. One of them is trying out Aion right now and he let me, "ahem" borrow his computer for a few hours. I pretty much do the same with all MMOs, like one of the EverQuest 2 developers let me into that game when it came out for awhile. He was disappointed when I told him I was going to start up WoW in a few weeks. We... don't talk much anymore.

Made an Asmodian Mage, played in Ishalgen and down the line got my wings during that ascending quest, such a pretty game. Flew around for awhile and tried out the gathering, which accounted to finding something and sticking your hand out at it. Then I tried to start Alchemy only for a few crafts to fail, then I remember what I hated about old crafting systems. Think I went into some place called Altgord before I decided I was not really feeling it and let my friend have his account back.

Really I am a person that is not easy to please, it takes a lot to grab me but when a game does, it latches hard. Right now Borderlands is giving me that problem, Hunter's rule.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure someone who played WoW and got to Razorhill before saying "this game is just not capturing me, I'm gonna go ahead and quit" feels the same way you do Scythe. :slywink:

Raemon777 said:

If NCsoft is concerned that people will derive all the possible value out of Aion during a 10-14 day trial, what does that say about the strength of their product as an MMO?

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The same thing Blizzard's lack of initial trial said about the strength of WoW as an MMO?

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WoW's launch month was disastrous. They weren't prepared for the server load, and they almost lost their whole userbase right then and there because people were pissed that they had paid for the game and a month of service and they couldn't log on.

Blizz had the least reason of any MMO to have competitive promotions because they had no competitors at the time, and they still began releasing trials for WoW through magazines, fansites, and the like, fairly early on. I got on through a trial at the 6 month mark, more or less, and I definitely wasn't the first among friends of mine to do so.

But most people won't maintain more than one or two MMO subscriptions at a time, and with MMOs popping up like rabbits nowadays (even if most of them are crap), the competition is going to be fierce, even if you ignore WoW.

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Which is exactly why you offer free trials as a promotional tool. Other competitors already do it. By default, they have a better value proposition than you do, if you don't do it. And if you do it, then, by default you have a better value proposition than the ones who don't.

TeKeo said:

Blizz had the least reason of any MMO to have competitive promotions because they had no competitors at the time,

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http://everquest.station.sony.com/

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/

http://www.darkageofcamelot.com/

http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/

just to scrape the iceberg.

Shegokigo;314138][quote=TeKeo said:

Blizz had the least reason of any MMO to have competitive promotions because they had no competitors at the time,

Click to expand...

http://everquest.station.sony.com/

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/

http://www.darkageofcamelot.com/

http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/

just to scrape the iceberg.[/QUOTE]

By the end of their pre-order period, WoW had pretty much beaten everyone (in the US).

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

So at launch, they didn't really need more promotions. And yet, within 6 months, they offered a free trials.

Its..a crappy amaglam of other mmos..

PvP similar to DAOC and others with massive large zones for pvp

Quest grind similar to WoW

Graphics up there with AoC, Vanguard, etc

Now the primary game mechanic of flying has been done in other mmorpgs, namely my favorite mmo to date, Shadowbane, had class which could fly either by natural means (wings) or spells.

Is it a bad game? *shrug* havent played it but it doesnt seem like my cup of tea. I'll wait for ST:O

Amorous Vyxen said:

What I personally think that had something to do with as to why WoW became so famous is simply the name "Blizzard" that was attached to it. While that sounds totally unfair I think that did draw a lot of people who never even played an MMO before to the game. Because, you know, it's Blizzard!!11!1oneoneone1two

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That's probably a huge part of it. Blizzard's brand, even in 2004, was pretty frackin' strong thanks to Diablo 2 and WC3. It's just plain obscene now.

I checked out their financials last year when they merged with Activision as part of a paper I was writing, and their "good will" calculation, essentially intangible value of their brand, was 12 billion dollars. Which is kind of bullshit, I thought, but not a single shareholder called them on it, and, well, they've kind of proven it, haven't they?

Its..a crappy amaglam of other mmos..

PvP similar to DAOC and others with massive large zones for pvp

Quest grind similar to WoW

Graphics up there with AoC, Vanguard, etc

Now the primary game mechanic of flying has been done in other mmorpgs, namely my favorite mmo to date, Shadowbane, had class which could fly either by natural means (wings) or spells.

Is it a bad game? *shrug* havent played it but it doesnt seem like my cup of tea. I'll wait for ST:O

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Couldn't you have said this about WoW 5 years ago though (with different MMO comparisons)?

If it pulls all those elements together into one cohesive whole and still has its own identity, how is that a bad thing?

All I can say is I played it to level 32 in about 3 1/2 weeks and then quit without even looking back. On the other hand I was sucked in by WoW for 3 years, I've quit 3 times and I'm thinking about going back again.

Snuffleupagus said:

All I can say is I played it to level 32 in about 3 1/2 weeks and then quit without even looking back. On the other hand I was sucked in by WoW for 3 years, I've quit 3 times and I'm thinking about going back again.

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For all the discussion about how good/bad their content/system is, what Warcraft is ludicrously good at that their competitors don't seem to be yet is selling and re-selling you their product however they can. They have free trials, they have game card giveaways, they have referrals, they have renewal bonuses, they have referral-renewal bonuses, they have supplementary products which get back you back into the primary product, etc.

They're really frakin' hardcore, and yet they don't seem to suffer any kind of brand devaluation from over-exposure at all. Activision may technically call the shots now, but so far it seems like they're actually staying hands-off.

TeKeo said:

So at launch, they didn't really need more promotions. And yet, within 6 months, they offered a free trials.

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Omg! You mean an established franchise made an MMO and pre-orders went through the roof? You don't say!

Shegokigo;314229][quote=TeKeo said:

So at launch, they didn't really need more promotions. And yet, within 6 months, they offered a free trials.

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Omg! You mean an established franchise made an MMO and pre-orders went through the roof? You don't say! [/QUOTE]

EDIT: Deleted because it was just flippant and snarky.

Look, I never said that they can't make sales based on a brand. In fact I'm pretty sure I just said the complete opposite a few posts ago. But the fact is, at the end of the day, there are far more customers who buy on value than buy on brand, and in a market where most of a customer's value is from subscriptions than the initial required box sale, and every single one of your competitors (including an extremely active market leader) is putting some skin in the game to get customers interested, you're letting extremely obvious sales opportunities go by if you don't have a trial, or change your model (DDO did, very successfully).

TeKeo said:

oddbot said:

In my experience if an MMO is doing well, they usually don't have a free trial for a while.

Click to expand...

Doing it like that is actually fundamentally unsound as a business reason in a subscription model, where the vast majority of revenue is drawn from subscription fees, not the box sales.

Click to expand...

I dunno the business reasons behind it, but it's just been my experience. Successful games like WoW and LOTRO have taken a while before they offered a free trial. Fail games like AoC and WAR offered ones much quicker, and now the first ten levels of WAR are free forever.

It usually depends on who owns the game. If it's NCSoft, you can expect a trial within a year, tops.

It is NCSoft.

Shegokigo said:

It is NCSoft.

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Then there will be a trial soon. NCSoft hands out free trials like candy because of how the Korean gaming scene works.

I have been playing it for a week. It's pretty good so far, I guess.

I've played Wow, LotR Online, FFXI, City of Heroes, and Warhammer Online. I never cared for WoW or LotR, but Warhammer was pretty good. I played FFXI and City of Heroes on and off for a few years.

I haven't been playing Aion long enough to say whether or not I'll stick with it, but I like it so far. The flying, though more limited (time-wise) than I'd originally thought, is cool. The game looks great, and I like the few classes I've tried out so far.