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Am I screwed? (Graduate School Question)

#1

HoboNinja

HoboNinja

Ok so the past 2 1/2 years I have just been dicking around at my community college getting my Associates of Arts. Just the gen ed shit out of the way, I thought this was a good idea because it would save me money rather than going to a major university for these classes.

I am transferring to Iowa State next fall to study Physics.

I have been searching around and basically I may be fucked on doing research and things like that to get me into a graduate program after I finish my Bachelors.

Everything I am reading is saying I should start research my 2nd year or at latest my 3rd (Which I guess would be this coming year at ISU since I went slow with my first 2 years and made it 3 at my current school).

The thing is I can't really get into any research or tutor intro physics or math classes because I won't have had those classes yet. I basically got all my simple gen ed stuff out of the way and I have all my physics and math (Calc 1,2,3 and Differential Equations... I screwed around and just took Algebra and Precalc here because they were easy and I haden't decided on physics till recently) in my next 2 years at ISU.

So basically what are your suggestions? When I transfer next year what are some things I can do to make my resume look good to a graduate school in a couple years. Is it too late to get the needed stuff in? I know the vet program at ISU is extremely competitive with people doing 4-5 internships and other stuff to try and get into it but I am not sure how the Physics is there.

Im also searching around for what grad schools are good for Physics and Astronomy, Astrophysics, Planetary Sciences, or whatever other names it goes by because I want to increase my chances of getting in somewhere as much as I can.


#2

strawman

strawman

You can have a rough start and still succeed in grad school.

I'd get to know everyone in your field, though. Start an email conversation, read lots of papers, etc. A lot of grad school unfortunately happens to be politics and networking.

Get the right professor and you won't have to worry about how you started, because you'll have a big finish.


#3

Enresshou

Enresshou

Ahhhh, now the ball's in my court. This is coming from a bio major, though, so take that with a grain of salt.

In short, no: you're not screwed. I'm not a super highly competitive applicant stats-wise (3.3 GPA, 1410 GRE (general; no subject test), nine months research experience, all from a non-well-known university), and I already have an interview invite to the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (one of the top 15 programs in my chosen field). Also, although Vet schools are RIDICULOUSLY competitive anyways, different departments can vary wildly in their admissions. Physics programs, though, are fairly competitive--but don't sell yourself short.

For starters, http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/graduate-school and http://forum.thegradcafe.com/. The 'Grad School Admissions 101' thread on College Confidential is a big help, and you can find threads for previous applicants (generally in the biomedical sciences, but there's sub-forums for your intended major) detailing stats and such.

Second, don't be paranoid about the 'stats inflation' on that site: graduate admissions is a holistic process, more or less. Keep your GPA, especially in your major, as high as possible (most programs have an average GPA of ~3.5 or so), and study for the GRE a few months before you take it. From what I've heard, GREs are useful in applying for funding, so make sure you do as well on that as you possibly can. It's not too difficult, though; I got my score after about three weeks of studying, and it's more about 'knowing how the questions are asked' than 'knowing the answers'. You'll see when you start studying.

Third, get in on some research as soon as possible. Connect with your professors, ask questions, and--if you happen to like one of your physics professors--ask what research they're doing, and if they could use a hand. You won't get paid for it (unless you're hired on as a lab tech, but most undergrads won't be), but you will get some independent research credit out of it (which can help boost your GPA), and--also importantly--you network yourself with professors.

This will be invaluable when it comes time to choose who will be writing your letters of recommendation, because you'll have people who will be able to say far more than 'so-and-so took my course, got an A, and was a good student.' I felt confident asking one of my cell/molec teachers to write me a letter because I spoke with him so much over the three or four classes I took with him. He was able to write me a strong letter, which leads me to point four.

Point four: research experience and letters of recommendation generally carry the most weight at graduate programs. When I went to the PREVIEW weekend at Michigan, we were given a powerpoint presentation about what Michigan looks for in its strongest applicants, and bolded at the top were research experience and letters. More than simply 'doing' the research, try to understand WHY you're doing it. Try to understand the experiment and its design. It behooves you both since, if you want to go to graduate school, you'll need to anyway, and has the twin benefits of labwork preparing you for coursework (developmental genetics/PCR and DNA sequencing in my lab prepped me for several upper division cell/molec courses) and the coursework helps you understand the lab material in better depth.

Long story short: try your best to understand the WHY of the research. Even if it's not in your chosen field of interest, showing that you understand the research--and, equally important, that you can explain it to others--is an absolutely invaluable skill.

Fifth, your statement of purpose and personal statement. These are the essays you write to sell yourself to the university. All programs (at least that I'm aware of) require the statement of purpose (SoP), which normally consists of why you want to pursue graduate studies, how you've prepared for this, and why you feel that their program is a good fit for you (more on this in a moment). The personal statement is more, well, personal: generally, you'll talk about any difficulties you've had to overcome, personal reasons for pursuing a PhD, etc.

For example, a Statement of Purpose might read, "I'm pursuing graduate studies in order to gain a further background in my field, skills I'll need to pursue my own questions, etc," whereas a personal statement might read, "I was instilled with the desire to pursue neuroscience after my grandfather died of Alzheimer's." (Poor examples, but hopefully you get the picture)

ixth, if you're looking for graduate schools, fit is normally the best indication. Right now, I wouldn't worry too much about it--you've still got a couple years to figure out your research interests and where they lie. When you're considering schools to apply to, though, the most important thing is fit. Prestige is nice (and by all means apply to prestigious schools), but make sure that the professors (3+) are doing research that you'd be interested in. It doesn't have to be a narrow, defined field; but just make sure you could see yourself happy in several labs if your first two advisors don't work out.

What I did when I was researching schools is used the US News Rankings (http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools), started at the top of the list, and worked my way down it. I would find a school in an area I might find appealing (I kept an open mind, but certain areas--such as hot and dry arid regions--would absolutely drive me nuts), go to the departmental web page, and then click through the faculty to see the research being done. If you're interested, when you get closer to applying, e-mail the professors and ask if they're currently accepting graduate students into their labs; responses may vary, but some might be interested.

Seventh, see if the programs have any open houses. I got SUPER lucky because the Michigan PIBS program does a PREVIEW weekend, and I was lucky enough to be invited to attend--they flew us out, let us meet and visit with faculty, showed us the school and area, and answered any question we might have. There's no better way to gauge a school than to simply visit it.

Finally, make sure you know what you're getting into. Do you want a master's, which would help in industry and enable you to help with somebody else's research? Do you want a Ph.D., which would enable you to perform independent research? Look at what each entails, and speak to a few professors before making up your mind (I was dead-set on a Master's when I first started; and now I'm (hopefully) going for a Ph.D. next year). Both have their pros and cons, and you can tailor them to suit your own needs.

If you need/want any other help, shoot me an IM on AIM or Yahoo: my screen name is Enresshou. I've been focused on this for the past six months or so, so I'd be glad to help out.


#4



Chazwozel

I was going to reply but Enresshou has it pretty down.


The only other advise I might add is to join a physics club (my old undergrad school had one).

Big things are keeping your grades up to 3.3-3.5, letters of rec, and research. You're not screwed if you don't get research done during your time at college. There are plenty of academic research jobs available with fixed term 1 year contracts. If you can score one of those you'd be a shoe in for grad school. Iowa State is huge, so I'm sorry to say, you might have missed your opportunity for undergrad research. You might be able to butter up a prof, but a lot of them won't let you get away with last minute research in their lab just to look good for grad school. Some of them might though. I did independent research for a year from junior to senior year, but I was good friends with the professor prior. I went to a smaller private university though; my entire Biology majoring class was like 25 students.


#5



JCM

I've graduated in advertising, and have certification in Arabic/Spanish/Portuguese/Malay/3Danimation(Lightwave and Maya)/Photoshop/Islamic and Envangelical theology.

Yet the jobs that taken that provide more money in the 17 countries I've lived in is; language instructor, interpreter, yoga teacher and translator, as even an experienced art director doesn't make as much money per hour as the aforementioned professions.

Go figure. Anyway, since we're having University degrees over the internet here in Brazil, Im going for Pedagogy and Law, hopefully after 5 years when Im done with them I'll get something out of it.


#6



Chazwozel

I've graduated in advertising, and have certification in Arabic/Spanish/Portuguese/Malay/3Danimation(Lightwave and Maya)/Photoshop/Islamic and Envangelical theology.

Yet the jobs that taken that provide more money in the 17 countries I've lived in is; language instructor, interpreter, yoga teacher and translator, as even an experienced art director doesn't make as much money per hour as the aforementioned professions.

Go figure. Anyway, since we're having University degrees over the internet here in Brazil, Im going for Pedagogy and Law, hopefully after 5 years when Im done with them I'll get something out of it.

And this is relevant to getting into a science Ph.D. program how?


#7



JCM

That not everyone gets a job in the area that he/she studied, so be prepared to have all those years of studies do nothing to your yearly income.

My suggestion? While specializing, start a course on something else on the side, unless you are confident enough to bet all your money/life on just that field. Or be prepared to travel elsewhere should your city/state/country not have a good position for you.


#8



Chazwozel

That not everyone gets a job in the area that he/she studied, so be prepared to have all those years of studies do nothing to your yearly income.

My suggestion? While specializing, start a course on something else on the side, unless you are confident enough to bet all your money/life on just that field.

Ah, yeah, that's not a bad idea either. I run a janitorial company on the side (under my wife's name though). Pretty easy to start up. I was considering a computer fix it type shop, but then Best Buy got Geek Squad.

Normally, as a full time graduate student, you won't be able to get a side job though. In sciences you get paid a stipend to cover expenses, and you literally get bogged down with 50-70 hours of work a week.

He should be able to find a job in Physics though. Especially if he gets a Ph.D.


#9



JCM

He should be able to find a job in Physics though. Especially if he gets a Ph.D.
True, and should he ever be unable to find a job there, every country in Asia/Latin America worship anyone with a Phd.


#10



Chazwozel

He should be able to find a job in Physics though. Especially if he gets a Ph.D.
True, and should he ever be unable to find a job there, every country in Asia/Latin America worship anyone with a Phd.[/quote]


Well, not every country in Asia. South Korea and Japan have very, very competitive science programs, especially in genetics. Actually, I think the U.S. and Europe are the cream of the crop when it comes to physics, but that's not to say he won't find a job in Physics anywhere in the world (if he's willing to relocate like that).

Finally, make sure you know what you're getting into. Do you want a master's, which would help in industry and enable you to help with somebody else's research? Do you want a Ph.D., which would enable you to perform independent research? Look at what each entails, and speak to a few professors before making up your mind (I was dead-set on a Master's when I first started; and now I'm (hopefully) going for a Ph.D. next year). Both have their pros and cons, and you can tailor them to suit your own needs.
I can't stress this enough. I just hope you know that Physics ain't no walk in the park Hobo. You will be competing against people (both in classes and when you're trying to find work) that live and breathe physics. Another downshot to Physics is that really only a handful of people do the really amazing, neck breaking research. Post-Docs are also really competitive to obtain. A professorship is HARD to come by. Again you compete against the cream of the crop for those positions. You'll really need to be 110% dedicated if you want to get anywhere with a background in Physics. Another route you can always go is engineering, which is a practical application of physics (but again it's no walk in the park). Just so you know you'll constantly will be having to one up yourself at each stage of the way, and no offense, but your community college grades aren't really a shining example that you've got the motivation right now.


#11

HoboNinja

HoboNinja

He should be able to find a job in Physics though. Especially if he gets a Ph.D.
True, and should he ever be unable to find a job there, every country in Asia/Latin America worship anyone with a Phd.[/quote]


Well, not every country in Asia. South Korea and Japan have very, very competitive science programs, especially in genetics. Actually, I think the U.S. and Europe are the cream of the crop when it comes to physics, but that's not to say he won't find a job in Physics anywhere in the world (if he's willing to relocate like that).

Finally, make sure you know what you're getting into. Do you want a master's, which would help in industry and enable you to help with somebody else's research? Do you want a Ph.D., which would enable you to perform independent research? Look at what each entails, and speak to a few professors before making up your mind (I was dead-set on a Master's when I first started; and now I'm (hopefully) going for a Ph.D. next year). Both have their pros and cons, and you can tailor them to suit your own needs.
I can't stress this enough. I just hope you know that Physics ain't no walk in the park Hobo. You will be competing against people (both in classes and when you're trying to find work) that live and breathe physics. Another downshot to Physics is that really only a handful of people do the really amazing, neck breaking research. Post-Docs are also really competitive to obtain. A professorship is HARD to come by. Again you compete against the cream of the crop for those positions. You'll really need to be 110% dedicated if you want to get anywhere with a background in Physics. Another route you can always go is engineering, which is a practical application of physics (but again it's no walk in the park). Just so you know you'll constantly will be having to one up yourself at each stage of the way, and no offense, but your community college grades aren't really a shining example that you've got the motivation right now.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I have got shitty grades at community college. I am not sure how I will do next year but I am going to try my damnedest to maintain high grades and make this work, I wanted to do Physics when I was younger but when I started college I was like meh im not smart enough I will just do something else. But now fuck that, I want to do it so I am going to do it.

But thank you Enresshou you rock.

As for Masters vs. PhD I have no idea yet, I don't even know what I want to do with physics as a job because I haven't really got to see what research is like. Honestly it would be neat to even just teach Physics at a High School or Community College.


#12

Dieb

Dieb

He should be able to find a job in Physics though. Especially if he gets a Ph.D.
True, and should he ever be unable to find a job there, every country in Asia/Latin America worship anyone with a Phd.[/quote]


Well, not every country in Asia. South Korea and Japan have very, very competitive science programs, especially in genetics. Actually, I think the U.S. and Europe are the cream of the crop when it comes to physics, but that's not to say he won't find a job in Physics anywhere in the world (if he's willing to relocate like that).

Finally, make sure you know what you're getting into. Do you want a master's, which would help in industry and enable you to help with somebody else's research? Do you want a Ph.D., which would enable you to perform independent research? Look at what each entails, and speak to a few professors before making up your mind (I was dead-set on a Master's when I first started; and now I'm (hopefully) going for a Ph.D. next year). Both have their pros and cons, and you can tailor them to suit your own needs.
I can't stress this enough. I just hope you know that Physics ain't no walk in the park Hobo. You will be competing against people (both in classes and when you're trying to find work) that live and breathe physics. Another downshot to Physics is that really only a handful of people do the really amazing, neck breaking research. Post-Docs are also really competitive to obtain. A professorship is HARD to come by. Again you compete against the cream of the crop for those positions. You'll really need to be 110% dedicated if you want to get anywhere with a background in Physics. Another route you can always go is engineering, which is a practical application of physics (but again it's no walk in the park). Just so you know you'll constantly will be having to one up yourself at each stage of the way, and no offense, but your community college grades aren't really a shining example that you've got the motivation right now.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I have got shitty grades at community college. I am not sure how I will do next year but I am going to try my damnedest to maintain high grades and make this work, I wanted to do Physics when I was younger but when I started college I was like meh im not smart enough I will just do something else. But now fuck that, I want to do it so I am going to do it.

But thank you Enresshou you rock.

As for Masters vs. PhD I have no idea yet, I don't even know what I want to do with physics as a job because I haven't really got to see what research is like. Honestly it would be neat to even just teach Physics at a High School or Community College.[/QUOTE]
To teach Physics at a High School or Community College, all you need to do is get a Masters degree. But this is not something you have to decide right away, for either a PhD or a Masters right now you have to do the same thing: concentrate on doing well once you get to Iowa State.


#13

Enresshou

Enresshou

HoboNinja said:
Yeah I have got shitty grades at community college. I am not sure how I will do next year but I am going to try my damnedest to maintain high grades and make this work, I wanted to do Physics when I was younger but when I started college I was like meh im not smart enough I will just do something else. But now fuck that, I want to do it so I am going to do it.

But thank you Enresshou you rock.

As for Masters vs. PhD I have no idea yet, I don't even know what I want to do with physics as a job because I haven't really got to see what research is like. Honestly it would be neat to even just teach Physics at a High School or Community College.
You're welcome :)

I agree with Chazwozel that your grades aren't a stellar example of your motivation, but--if it's any consolation--an upward trend can do nothing but work in your favor. Try to keep them especially high in your major, since schools will often ask your cumulative GPA, your major GPA, and your GPA for your last two years. Two out of three being great can't hurt you.

As for what research is like in a lab: it is largely tedious and very often frustrating. At least in biology, contamination is omnipresent, and a single slip-up can result in having to redo several hours' worth of work. But, if you can push through it, you would not believe how exhilarating it can be realizing that not only was your experiment a success, but you've discovered something (however insignificant it may be) that NO ONE has known before you.

As for the differences:

A master's degree, generally speaking, will take two years (some schools are one year). The first year is generally spent taking graduate-level courses (and some undergraduate level courses you might've missed; like pure mathematicians who decide to go into physics) towards your subject of interest, while the second year (and potentially beyond) is spent doing research in a lab. Your capstone is your master's thesis, which will comprise of all the research you did in the lab.

A Ph.D., also generally speaking, will take a minimum of four years (closer to five/five-and-a-half). The first year is a bit of a toss-up: while you'll inevitably be enrolled in graduate courses your first (and often second) years, some schools refuse to allow you to take part in lab rotations your first year. Some schools require them your first year. Laboratory rotations are roughly 10-12 weeks in length, and you perform research in a lab with a prospective PI (Primary Investigator) to see if the lab will be a good fit for you.

At the end of the second year, you undergo qualifying exams. If you pass, you're advanced to Ph.D. candidacy, and being performing research that will be incorporated into your dissertation. The Ph.D. is a very individual degree, and requires a great deal of self-motivation: you're treated like an adult, and no one's going to force you to do the research.

As for what you can do with them, it all depends. Like I said, a Ph.D. is required for any sort of independent research or professorship at non-community colleges. Although it might be different for engineering, I know (at least in the biomedical sciences) a Ph.D. is an enormously useful tool for starting your own science company (such as, perhaps, an engineering company, or an engineering consulting firm). A Ph.D. also opens a lot of doors a Master's wouldn't afford you, at the expense of closing some others--i.e. potential discrimination in the form of being overqualified for some positions.

You've still got a couple years left to figure this out, though. See how you like research. Think of what might interest you. It will, more than likely, not come to you in a sudden flash of inspiration; but will be a general whittling down and refinement of your current interests. It's a long and winding road, but a VERY rewarding one!


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