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Amazon, the new gold standard in Dickery
#1
Dusty668
Dusty668
Kindle2 is the greatest source for renting books.
Sooo handy, you don't even need to return them, Amazon will just delete them remotely for you. Whee! No more waiting for the dog to eat your homework, Amazon will eat it for you! Go Baen!
Source via slashdot:
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/ ... an-others/
Sooo handy, you don't even need to return them, Amazon will just delete them remotely for you. Whee! No more waiting for the dog to eat your homework, Amazon will eat it for you! Go Baen!
Source via slashdot:
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/ ... an-others/
#2
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
Amazon made a panicked decision, but it's a lot more complicated than Pogue seems to think.
No, with ebooks and the Kindle store, you actually can track individuals down as having purchased stolen property. It's the same thing as software/music/movie piracy really.
Now, if you had gotten that book off of piratebay, I don't think they would care, but Amazon, for obvious reasons, lives off its legal publisher relationships, so they panicked.
Amazon made a panicked decision, but it's a lot more complicated than Pogue seems to think.
The only reason that this hasn't happened is because up until a couple years ago (and really, still today), the logistics of tracking down individual sales of unauthorized book editions was so overwhelming as to be impossible. It was much simpler to just file an injunction on the sales and sue the unauthorized publisher for damages.As one of my readers noted, it’s like Barnes & Noble sneaking into our homes in the middle of the night, taking some books that we’ve been reading off our nightstands, and leaving us a check on the coffee table.
No, with ebooks and the Kindle store, you actually can track individuals down as having purchased stolen property. It's the same thing as software/music/movie piracy really.
Now, if you had gotten that book off of piratebay, I don't think they would care, but Amazon, for obvious reasons, lives off its legal publisher relationships, so they panicked.
#3
Bowielee
Bowielee
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
At least they reimbursed the people who had this happen. It's more than I can say for people who had issues with DRM on legitimate software purchases.
At least they reimbursed the people who had this happen. It's more than I can say for people who had issues with DRM on legitimate software purchases.
#4
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
When I originally read that story there was no mention of the books being unauthorized editions. I was pretty pissed off when I first heard about it but with this additional information, it does make a lot more sense. Especially since they say they won't do that again. I agree it was probably a panicked move that seemed like the right idea at the time.TeKeo said:Now, if you had gotten that book off of piratebay, I don't think they would care, but Amazon, for obvious reasons, lives off its legal publisher relationships, so they panicked.
#5
Bowielee
Bowielee
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
And really, due to the fact that they refunded the purchase price of the e-books, I don't really see what the problem is.
And really, due to the fact that they refunded the purchase price of the e-books, I don't really see what the problem is.
#6
Tress
Tress
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
I completely agree. This is the perfect example of a knee-jerk reaction.Bowielee said:And really, due to the fact that they refunded the purchase price of the e-books, I don't really see what the problem is.
#7
Espy
Espy
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
I guess it's within their rights but, having only skimmed the article maybe I missed this, why does the publisher or whomever requested the books pulled NOT want money?
It's a wonderfully funny story though, considering the books pulled.Tress said:I completely agree. This is the perfect example of a knee-jerk reaction.Bowielee said:And really, due to the fact that they refunded the purchase price of the e-books, I don't really see what the problem is.
I guess it's within their rights but, having only skimmed the article maybe I missed this, why does the publisher or whomever requested the books pulled NOT want money?
#8
Bowielee
Bowielee
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
George Orwell's estate has always been pretty particular about his intellectual properties. Though, that makes me wonder how Animal Farm ever got made.Espy said:It's a wonderfully funny story though, considering the books pulled.Tress said:I completely agree. This is the perfect example of a knee-jerk reaction.Bowielee said:And really, due to the fact that they refunded the purchase price of the e-books, I don't really see what the problem is.
I guess it's within their rights but, having only skimmed the article maybe I missed this, why does the publisher or whomever requested the books pulled NOT want money?
#9
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
Yeah, I almost wished there hadn't turned out to be a respectable reason behind it because it was better the first way.Espy said:It's a wonderfully funny story though, considering the books pulled.
#10
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
Respectable reason or not, it's going to make me even more hesitant to buy a kindle or similar device.
#11
Bowielee
Bowielee
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
Really? For me, it's the fact that they're 300 freakin dollars.DarkAudit said:Respectable reason or not, it's going to make me even more hesitant to buy a kindle or similar device.
#12
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
I didn't say it was the top reason. :tongue:Bowielee said:Really? For me, it's the fact that they're 300 freakin dollars.DarkAudit said:Respectable reason or not, it's going to make me even more hesitant to buy a kindle or similar device.
#13
JCM
Yes, Amazon probably due to some EULA loophole can delete anything it wants, but to have someone be able to take away something I bought, without asking me for permission, is freaky.
JCM
This.DarkAudit said:Respectable reason or not, it's going to make me even more hesitant to buy a kindle or similar device.
Yes, Amazon probably due to some EULA loophole can delete anything it wants, but to have someone be able to take away something I bought, without asking me for permission, is freaky.
#14
Bowielee
Bowielee
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
If they're refunding your money, they aren't taking anything away from you, they're recalling it.JCM said:This.DarkAudit said:Respectable reason or not, it's going to make me even more hesitant to buy a kindle or similar device.
Yes, Amazon probably due to some EULA loophole can delete anything it wants, but to have someone be able to take away something I bought, without asking me for permission, is freaky.
#15
JCM
JCM
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
Imagine Blizzard deleting WOW from your PC without permission.
IKEA sneaking that coffee table you bought out of your house.
Ed grabbing that Halforum mug through your kitchen window.
Yeah, they are refunding your money, but the day I allow people to grab stuff away from me without telling me will be the day I shall wear pink and consider myself a spineless worm.
Without your permission, deleting something from your Kindle?Bowielee said:If they're refunding your money, they aren't taking anything away from you, they're recalling it.JCM said:This.DarkAudit said:Respectable reason or not, it's going to make me even more hesitant to buy a kindle or similar device.
Yes, Amazon probably due to some EULA loophole can delete anything it wants, but to have someone be able to take away something I bought, without asking me for permission, is freaky.
Imagine Blizzard deleting WOW from your PC without permission.
IKEA sneaking that coffee table you bought out of your house.
Ed grabbing that Halforum mug through your kitchen window.
Yeah, they are refunding your money, but the day I allow people to grab stuff away from me without telling me will be the day I shall wear pink and consider myself a spineless worm.
#16
Bowielee
Bowielee
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
A world of warcraft account is not a static thing. One copy of 1984 is going to be like every other.
As you pirate types are so fond of pointing out, physical rules do not apply to the digital medium, so your other 2 examples are ludicrous.
Your comparisions are completely flawed.JCM said:Without your permission, deleting something from your Kindle?Bowielee said:If they're refunding your money, they aren't taking anything away from you, they're recalling it.JCM said:This.DarkAudit said:Respectable reason or not, it's going to make me even more hesitant to buy a kindle or similar device.
Yes, Amazon probably due to some EULA loophole can delete anything it wants, but to have someone be able to take away something I bought, without asking me for permission, is freaky.
Imagine Blizzard deleting WOW from your PC without permission.
IKEA sneaking that coffee table you bought out of your house.
Ed grabbing that Halforum mug through your kitchen window.
Yeah, they are refunding your money, but the day I allow people to grab stuff away from me without telling me will be the day I shall wear pink and consider myself a spineless worm.
A world of warcraft account is not a static thing. One copy of 1984 is going to be like every other.
As you pirate types are so fond of pointing out, physical rules do not apply to the digital medium, so your other 2 examples are ludicrous.
#17
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
This isn't a dangerous precedent, it's just a fuck-up.
Which was on there illegally to begin with.JCM said:Without your permission, deleting something from your Kindle?
This isn't a dangerous precedent, it's just a fuck-up.
#18
elph
elph
So, wait, is it being said that no where in Amazon's EULA, does it give any kind of ruling as to what they would do in this situation?
Personally, I agree with their decision, and don't really even think of it as a knee-jerk type thing. Sure, they probably could have gone about it better. Did they even give notice? "We're sorry, we've found that the copy of the Orwell books you have purchased were sold without our right. We have removed them from your device and have credited your accounts. For further information please see..."
Anything like that at all? The couple of reports I read about it didn't say so, but also it didn't seem as if they did.
Personally, I agree with their decision, and don't really even think of it as a knee-jerk type thing. Sure, they probably could have gone about it better. Did they even give notice? "We're sorry, we've found that the copy of the Orwell books you have purchased were sold without our right. We have removed them from your device and have credited your accounts. For further information please see..."
Anything like that at all? The couple of reports I read about it didn't say so, but also it didn't seem as if they did.
#19
JCM
JCM
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
Of course they are flawed, as you've got no arguement besides trying some lame "pirate-type" blabber to someone who buys and imports his shit. May I suggest telling me why do you think that a company being able to delete something from your computer (which the Kindle is) without telling you first is in way any good, instead of telling the customer first, offering either a refund or option to get a legal copy of the product, then deleting it?
Its a simple concept, respecting the fact that the customer's Kindle is HIS Kindle, and that you should inform him first, and then one could even make a sale off it by offering a discount off another product instead of treating the customers Kindle as if it wasnt his, and deleting stuff at will.
Pirate types? Is that what the "Amazon can fuck my arse anytime"-type call people who dont like when some company removes something from a computer of ours without permission?Bowielee said:A world of warcraft account is not a static thing. One copy of 1984 is going to be like every other.JCM said:Without your permission, deleting something from your Kindle?Bowielee said:If they're refunding your money, they aren't taking anything away from you, they're recalling it.JCM said:This.
Yes, Amazon probably due to some EULA loophole can delete anything it wants, but to have someone be able to take away something I bought, without asking me for permission, is freaky.
Imagine Blizzard deleting WOW from your PC without permission.
IKEA sneaking that coffee table you bought out of your house.
Ed grabbing that Halforum mug through your kitchen window.
Yeah, they are refunding your money, but the day I allow people to grab stuff away from me without telling me will be the day I shall wear pink and consider myself a spineless worm.
As you pirate types are so fond of pointing out, physical rules do not apply to the digital medium, so your other 2 examples are ludicrous.
Of course they are flawed, as you've got no arguement besides trying some lame "pirate-type" blabber to someone who buys and imports his shit. May I suggest telling me why do you think that a company being able to delete something from your computer (which the Kindle is) without telling you first is in way any good, instead of telling the customer first, offering either a refund or option to get a legal copy of the product, then deleting it?
This.elph said:So, wait, is it being said that no where in Amazon's EULA, does it give any kind of ruling as to what they would do in this situation?
Personally, I agree with their decision, and don't really even think of it as a knee-jerk type thing. Sure, they probably could have gone about it better. Did they even give notice? "We're sorry, we've found that the copy of the Orwell books you have purchased were sold without our right. We have removed them from your device and have credited your accounts. For further information please see..."
Its a simple concept, respecting the fact that the customer's Kindle is HIS Kindle, and that you should inform him first, and then one could even make a sale off it by offering a discount off another product instead of treating the customers Kindle as if it wasnt his, and deleting stuff at will.
#20
Bowielee
Bowielee
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
According to the New York Times article, it IS in their EULA that they reserve the right to revoke you're lisence to a book.elph said:So, wait, is it being said that no where in Amazon's EULA, does it give any kind of ruling as to what they would do in this situation?
Personally, I agree with their decision, and don't really even think of it as a knee-jerk type thing. Sure, they probably could have gone about it better. Did they even give notice? "We're sorry, we've found that the copy of the Orwell books you have purchased were sold without our right. We have removed them from your device and have credited your accounts. For further information please see..."
Anything like that at all? The couple of reports I read about it didn't say so, but also it didn't seem as if they did.
#21
I
Icarus
I
Icarus
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
Heh, if I had bought that book and had it removed halfway through reading it, I would be immensely pissed off. You invest, say, 5 hours into it only to find out it's no longer there!
In any case, I didn't buy that Kindle crap. Not only does it look hideous and looks to be designed by an ex-Apple-gone-mental designer, it looks uncomfortable to use. Plus, it looks incredibly cheap despite being expensive. I bought the Sony PRS-505 - no wireless buying of books but they're ridiculously priced anyway and it won't work outside of the US anyway so it's a better buy.
Heh, if I had bought that book and had it removed halfway through reading it, I would be immensely pissed off. You invest, say, 5 hours into it only to find out it's no longer there!
In any case, I didn't buy that Kindle crap. Not only does it look hideous and looks to be designed by an ex-Apple-gone-mental designer, it looks uncomfortable to use. Plus, it looks incredibly cheap despite being expensive. I bought the Sony PRS-505 - no wireless buying of books but they're ridiculously priced anyway and it won't work outside of the US anyway so it's a better buy.
#22
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/07/23/be ... s-for.html
Jeff Bezos said:This is an apology for the way we previously handled illegally sold copies of 1984 and other novels on Kindle. Our \"solution\" to the problem was stupid, thoughtless, and painfully out of line with our principles. It is wholly self-inflicted, and we deserve the criticism we've received. We will use the scar tissue from this painful mistake to help make better decisions going forward, ones that match our mission.
With deep apology to our customers,
Jeff Bezos
Founder & CEO
Amazon.com
#23
MindDetective
MindDetective
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
Wow. That is how you do an apology.ZenMonkey said:http://www.boingboing.net/2009/07/23/bezos-apologizes-for.html
Jeff Bezos said:This is an apology for the way we previously handled illegally sold copies of 1984 and other novels on Kindle. Our "solution" to the problem was stupid, thoughtless, and painfully out of line with our principles. It is wholly self-inflicted, and we deserve the criticism we've received. We will use the scar tissue from this painful mistake to help make better decisions going forward, ones that match our mission.
With deep apology to our customers,
Jeff Bezos
Founder & CEO
Amazon.com
#24
Lally
Lally
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
As far as what I think of it, I'm leaning towards "Amazon sold it to you already, that's on them and they shouldn't be able to take it back unless you voluntarily return the book, like any other recall" but I'm not solid on that position. And if it's in their agreement, I guess they have that right... though like DA said, that would probably stop me from buying a Kindle.
And that apology is so lame it almost doesn't even seem real.
I'm not sure how I feel about what Amazon did, but I certainly wouldn't call it a recall. I've never heard of an involuntary recall where someone takes what you've already bought, with the money being returned or not.Bowielee said:If they're refunding your money, they aren't taking anything away from you, they're recalling it.
As far as what I think of it, I'm leaning towards "Amazon sold it to you already, that's on them and they shouldn't be able to take it back unless you voluntarily return the book, like any other recall" but I'm not solid on that position. And if it's in their agreement, I guess they have that right... though like DA said, that would probably stop me from buying a Kindle.
And that apology is so lame it almost doesn't even seem real.
#25
JCM
JCM
Amazon, the new gold standard in *
However, this is a first time, and Amazon fessed up that it made a mistake, so maybe it will learn from its mistake.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. I bought something. Its mine. I dont care what happens, at least have the courtesy of telling me first before taking it back, if you cant ask for my permission.Lally said:I'm not sure how I feel about what Amazon did, but I certainly wouldn't call it a recall. I've never heard of an involuntary recall where someone takes what you've already bought, with the money being returned or not.Bowielee said:If they're refunding your money, they aren't taking anything away from you, they're recalling it.
As far as what I think of it, I'm leaning towards "Amazon sold it to you already, that's on them and they shouldn't be able to take it back unless you voluntarily return the book, like any other recall" but I'm not solid on that position. And if it's in their agreement, I guess they have that right... though like DA said, that would probably stop me from buying a Kindle.
And that apology is so lame it almost doesn't even seem real.
However, this is a first time, and Amazon fessed up that it made a mistake, so maybe it will learn from its mistake.