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I haven't read all the facts yet, but this just occurred in Texas, NOT Arizona.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100...5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawNib3JkZXJwYXRyb2w-

Local FBI spokeswoman Andrea Simmons told El Paso Times reporter Maggie Ybarra that Border Patrol officers detained two people among a group suspected of entering the U.S. illegally Monday night. The officer told the rest of the people in the group to stop and retreat. Simmons said that instead of following directions, the others in the group surrounded the agent and threw rocks at him, which is when he fired his weapon.

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More info in the AP link.

It sounds like there's two very different stories out there.

Border Patrol: It was self-defense, after the group started throwing rocks at the agents.

Mother & Friends: the agents started shooting immediately.

If the agent's story is true, firing was necessary, but I have a hard time believing it unless there's some stronger evidence than "he said, she said".

I think it's infinitely more likely that a bunch of kids got indignant and threw rocks at the Border Patrol then the Border Patrol opened fire on them for no reason, but that's just me. However, I doubt we'll ever really know what happened unless there were cameras on the bridge.

Media here says it was a FOURTEEN year old, and that they were playing at the bridge and the kid that got killed was shot just for leaning over it.

Overzealous border patrol doesn't sound that far fetched, but neither does stupid, violent kids. Who the hell knows.

Calleja said:

Media here says it was a FOURTEEN year old, and that they were playing at the bridge and the kid that got killed was shot just for leaning over it.

Overzealous border patrol doesn't sound that far fetched, but neither does stupid, violent kids. Who the hell knows.

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Why would the Border Patrol ever WANT to fire on anybody? It's likely like in law enforcement, where they have to fill out lengthy reports anytime they discharge their weapon and face an investigation. Who'd want to go through all that trouble for any reason OTHER than self-defense?

Some of those border patrol guys are WAY too into it.

But I wasn't there to be able to say either way. Kids do dumb things, but so do guys with guns patrolling dark areas looking for trouble.

Dave said:

Some of those border patrol guys are WAY too into it.

But I wasn't there to be able to say either way. Kids do dumb things, but so do guys with guns patrolling dark areas looking for trouble.

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Pretty much

throwing rocks is not a harmless pastime. Especially if a group of people are humming big rocks at you. Thrown rocks can seriously maim or even kill.

That said, there's really not enough info to come down on anyone's side in this yet. I'm 100% for an officer protecting himself if a group of people are humming rocks at him. I'm also 100% for charging him with the maximum allowable offense if an investigation shows that he fired on someone who didn't deserve having deadly force used against them.

If he was in danger of his life, I stand behind him. Don't bring a rock to a gun-fight. Happens in Israel too. That sounds really callous though. Dumb kids doing dumb things should not result in death. I feel bad for his family.

I hope the officer made every effort to resolve the situation before using his weapon.

Oh, no worries. I'm sure this incident won't escalate into anyth-

FBI reports that Mexican troops chased Border Patrol agents away with guns during investigation, continued to point guns at FBI during their investigation.

Hmmm. This could get ugly.

Considering the Mexican Army violates our borders on a daily basis (the corrupt ones, who are usually protecting/guiding drug shipments for gangs or coyotes moving illegals across the boarder), I honestly don't understand why it hasn't become an issue sooner. However, I doubt it'll get too serious... Mexico needs that route open a lot more than we need it and I really don't think they want the Army down there taking potshots at anyone who comes close to the border.

Don't these people realize that there's video of everything these days?

Video shows agent lied about "being surrounded" and other things in the shooting. I'm now on the side of the Mexicans in this instance.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html

Dave said:

Don't these people realize that there's video of everything these days?

Video shows agent lied about "being surrounded" and other things in the shooting. I'm now on the side of the Mexicans in this instance.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html

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That doesn't look good.

I actually can't tell what's going on in that video at all, it doesn't seem to show anything, and has clearly been edited.

But if the raw video puts the lie to the Agent's claims, then it definitely makes the Mexican account of the incident much, much more credible.

Yeah, I couldn't tell either. Hopefully there is some clearer footage (or an unedited version of this footage) which is a little clearer on the situation.

I can't tell what the fuck is going on in that video. You see the cop shooting at the kid, but you don't see if anything provoked him, because the video has been edited and it's not focused on anything particular until the shooting starts. This evidence is misleading at best.

I hope that guy had a VERY good reason for doing this... or he is going down hard.

so, why does the video get so damn dark and impossible to see right at the time of the shooting? Was there an eclipse or something? heh

That circle of people sure was far away from the agent, and seemed rather un-circular.

AshburnerX said:

I can't tell what the fuck is going on in that video. You see the cop shooting at the kid, but you don't see if anything provoked him, because the video has been edited and it's not focused on anything particular until the shooting starts. This evidence is misleading at best.

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You're not implying that Mexico is pulling one over the border patrol and releasing their own edited video, are you? That's a border camera... and I don't think anyone here has the muscle to pull that off.

Well, you know how those Mexicans are. Can't trust 'em.

*spits tobacco into spittoon*

Calleja;398002][QUOTE=AshburnerX said:

I can't tell what the fuck is going on in that video. You see the cop shooting at the kid, but you don't see if anything provoked him, because the video has been edited and it's not focused on anything particular until the shooting starts. This evidence is misleading at best.

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You're not implying that Mexico is pulling one over the border patrol and releasing their own edited video, are you? That's a border camera... and I don't think anyone here has the muscle to pull that off.[/QUOTE]

AHEM...

CNN obtained the video, which was shot by a witness on a cell phone camera from the Mexican side of the border, from affiliate Univision. The video aired on its program Primer Impacto late Wednesday evening.

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A US Border Patrol Camera it ain't.

Univision is an American company.

Calleja said:

Univision is an American company.

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The video is clearly edited. For what purpose cannot yet be determined.

But the video we see has fades from one scene to the other. I don't know any cell phone video that does that automatically. Therefore, something has been cut out. Plus, right when the shots happen, the video mysteriously darkens up so much we can't see anything about what's going on. But immediately before and after the shooting, the video is fairly clear. I'm not saying these things make the border patrol guards innocent. However, if the video was edited (which it obviously was) one has to ask "what was cut out?" And if it was purposefully darkened (which I'm not saying we know that it was), one would have to ask "what is it that the editors didn't want us to see?" They're valid questions, I think, which could be better answered by access to the raw, unedited video.

I'm not saying it's no edited, it obviously is. I'm just having a hard time believing anyone on Mexico's side has enough influence and power to pull one over the United States Government.

Calleja said:

I'm not saying it's no edited, it obviously is. I'm just having a hard time believing anyone on Mexico's side has enough influence and power to pull one over the United States Government.

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They really aren't. FBI analysts have already confirmed that rocks WERE being thrown at him by examining the video, which corroborates the report AND the dialog on the video... and the guy who shot the kid has already admitted that "surrounded" was definitely the wrong word to use in his report, as it made the event sound much worse than it was. However, that really doesn't change the fact that he was being provoked into action by the other people in this video.

Regardless of whether he was in the right or not, he definitely needs to be fired or transferred from this department. Keeping him around is only going to intensify the acts of retribution against the Border Patrol, making it even more likely something like this will happen again. Considering how intense things between Mexicans and Americans have been for the last few months, it's probably for the best.

Again, Univision is an American company. The edited video came from them.

Calleja said:

Again, Univision is an American company. The edited video came from them.

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No the video came from a witness on the Mexican side of the border.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2

(CNN) -- The 15-year-old Mexican youth who was shot and killed by a Border Patrol agent had a history of involvement with human smuggling and was on a list of repeat juvenile offenders, U.S. Customs and Border Protection spokesman Mark Qualia told CNN Thursday.

The victim, Sergio Adrian Hernandez Guereca, had been apprehended by U.S. officials on more than one occassion but was never criminally charged, Qualia said.

The use of juveniles to smuggle people across the border is a common tactic for smugglers, he said.

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*shrug* More background story.

Cue people saying "He was doing what had to survive!" in 3... 2...

Honestly, this whole thing is a fucking cluster fuck at this point. Kid's not as innocent as the Mexican Government portrayed, Border Patrol isn't as innocent as they claimed... honestly, are there any REAL victims here? Any people who weren't doing something they shouldn't have been? All that's being done is both sides are using the incident to justify acts of aggression against each other!

From the AP Link:

The boy was shot once near the eye, and authorities found one 40-millimeter casing near the body on Mexican soil.

"They say that they started firing from over there and suddenly hit him in the head," she said Monday.

From the FBI: Mexicans chased us away story:

Hernandez was found 20 feet (six meters) into Mexico, and an autopsy revealed that the fatal shot was fired at a relatively close range.

Mexican authorities said a .40 caliber shell casing was found near the body, suggesting that the Border Patrol agent might have crossed into Mexico to shoot the boy.

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Now what would make you think someone would want to doctor that video before release?

Dusty668 said:

From the AP Link:

The boy was shot once near the eye, and authorities found one 40-millimeter casing near the body on Mexican soil.

"They say that they started firing from over there and suddenly hit him in the head," she said Monday.

From the FBI: Mexicans chased us away story:

Hernandez was found 20 feet (six meters) into Mexico, and an autopsy revealed that the fatal shot was fired at a relatively close range.

Mexican authorities said a .40 caliber shell casing was found near the body, suggesting that the Border Patrol agent might have crossed into Mexico to shoot the boy.

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Now what would make you think someone would want to doctor that video before release?

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Two sides to every story:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...patrol-agent-kills-mexican-teen-near-el-paso/

A U.S. official close to the investigation told the AP that authorities have a video showing that the Border Patrol agent did not cross into Mexico. In fact, the official said, the video shows what appear to be members of Mexican law enforcement crossing onto the U.S. side, picking something up and returning to Mexico. The official was not cleared to speak about the video and spoke only on condition of anonymity.

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We definitely don't have all the information yet. Both sides are obviously going to say what puts their position in the best possible light.

I don't think this necessarily means either one of the 2 first options on the poll.

He wasn't really "surrounded" and this doesn't necessarily mean "xenophobic and racist conduct", it is pretty much just abuse of power and that happens all the time and doesn't mean it has something -or everything- to do with the kid being mexican, it could, but that's just speculating.

I really don't think having rocks thrown at you justifies you killing someone, he was a freakin' 15 year old, you can easily scare the shit out of a stupid boy, shooting him was going way too far.

and now, perhaps, we know why the video was edited like it was. In the 'darkened' video, we can't see some important evidence.

Here is unedited raw video.
http://www.univision.com/content/videoplayer.jhtml?cid=2433072

What I see: At the beginning of the video, we see several kids making a run for an area the US side of fence. One of them appears to come from the US side, through the fence. I count 5 kids in total, though they don't clump enough to really get a good look. A border agent runs up at the same time. Most kids scatter, and the border agent detains one.

from about 1:07 to about 1:15, the camera shakes a bit off the border guard, and you can see one youth approaching from under the bridge. The border agent is pointing at him and yelling something. at 1:21, you can see another youth also approaching.

At about 1:21, the border agent takes a defensive posture and makes two shots, from the US side of the border. The two visible youths scatter. The border agent begins securing his captive. At 1:36, the border agent takes another shot, and the camera swings wide enough to see a youth falling down, and another scattering.

Within minutes, more US border agents appear, holding guns. Then Mexican law inforcement is on the scene, with their own weapons. By 8:30, the US agents have retreated, and the Mexican authorities are near the dead boy.

My interpretation: The border agent caught some kids either fooling around or actually attempting to penetrate the border. At the beginning of the video it looks like one of the kids comes from the US side, and through the fence. The kid who was killed has evidently been involved in smuggling in the past. The agent catches one, and is menaced by the others. Though the video is too bad to see if rocks are thrown, witnesses on the video can be heard talking about it. He takes two shots, but the kids regroup and re-approach, but this time, using the bridge columns as cover (as this is where the other kid died). Then he takes a third shot, killing a kid and evidently ending the confrontation.

At no point in the video does a US agent ever enter the river bed. The shot is taken from the US side of the river. If a bullet casing was found next to the body, someone planted it there. At no point in the video did we see Mexican authorities cross the river bed, either, so I cannot say where the bullet casing came from, if those reports are even accurate.

While it sucks this kid had to be shot, from what I see, this lone border agent was being approached by aggressive attacking youths. As they were actively menacing and not just mouthing off, I can see where he would have been in fear of being overwhelmed had he not taken action. I can't really fault him based on this video. We can't see how many kids were approaching him, but from the video it seems clear to me that they weren't just taunting him but were approaching him aggressively.

So it was Maras in training.

I just saw the unedited video and no, I don't think that killing was justified AT ALL.

Morphine said:

I just saw the unedited video and no, I don't think that killing was justified AT ALL.

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from what I can see, if the kids are being a menace after he arrested one (that you can see) then he could fire at them as self defense. He was holding a kid down with one hand and fire with another. I am GUESSING he is just doing cover fire and one of the kid just happen to run into it (it could happen) but if he is a marksman then yea.. you can hit pretty well with one hand and holding down another target.

Officer Charon: you are an officer, how is your shooting skill?

Chibibar;398554][QUOTE=Morphine said:

I just saw the unedited video and no, I don't think that killing was justified AT ALL.

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from what I can see, if the kids are being a menace after he arrested one (that you can see) then he could fire at them as self defense. He was holding a kid down with one hand and fire with another. I am GUESSING he is just doing cover fire and one of the kid just happen to run into it (it could happen) but if he is a marksman then yea.. you can hit pretty well with one hand and holding down another target.

Officer Charon: you are an officer, how is your shooting skill? [/QUOTE]

I don't need to be an officer of the law to tell you that they don't do "just cover fire." At least, not against a group of teenagers. You are only supposed to discharge your weapon if lethal force is needed for a situation, and I'm not certain it was necessary here.

Troll;398560][QUOTE=Chibibar;398554][QUOTE=Morphine said:

I just saw the unedited video and no, I don't think that killing was justified AT ALL.

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from what I can see, if the kids are being a menace after he arrested one (that you can see) then he could fire at them as self defense. He was holding a kid down with one hand and fire with another. I am GUESSING he is just doing cover fire and one of the kid just happen to run into it (it could happen) but if he is a marksman then yea.. you can hit pretty well with one hand and holding down another target.

Officer Charon: you are an officer, how is your shooting skill? [/QUOTE]

I don't need to be an officer of the law to tell you that they don't do "just cover fire." At least, not against a group of teenagers. You are only supposed to discharge your weapon if lethal force is needed for a situation, and I'm not certain it was necessary here.[/QUOTE]
well... what you would consider lethal? the guy said they are throwing rocks. Rocks CAN be lethal if use correctly so. Personally my parents taught me that if you are going to shoot, you shoot to kill. The video quality is so bad that I can't tell if rocks WERE thrown.

Chibibar said:

well... what you would consider lethal? the guy said they are throwing rocks. Rocks CAN be lethal if use correctly so. Personally my parents taught me that if you are going to shoot, you shoot to kill. The video quality is so bad that I can't tell if rocks WERE thrown.

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FBI experts are saying there are, and I'm going to secede to their expertise here. And yes, rocks can be quite lethal... it's one of the reasons Riot Cops in the US get a strong helmet if they are deployed. The real question here is whether or not the situation warranted it or rather, whether the Officer felt he had a reasonable assumption of whether or not his life was in danger. Honestly... considering how Mexicans are portrayed in some parts of our country, I could see how some people might think the worst in that situation.

Does anyone know, was the BPA wearing kevlar and a helmet? Can't tell at all in the video.

I don't think so. He might have been packing a vest, but I think he's wearing a ball cap with the Border Patrol logo on it. Even if he had been, Kevlar is made to stop bullets from penetrating... it can't stop the weight of a rock from cracking a rib or something without some padding. However, it's very likely they don't issue the Border Patrol with vests due to budget concerns.

Also even if they do it's possible they don't wear them because they are usually pretty uncomfortable to wear in nice circumstances and it's probably pretty hot along the border.

I VERY curious on why/how someone with a cell phone just happens to be on the high point of the area at that exact time and place. The shooting is taking place by what looks like a rail bridge so why the crowd gathering to watch 3-4 teens try and cross the border there?

While I wish it wouldn't happen, if the cops on the Mexican side were as fast to stop them from trying to come over the border as they were to yell at their US counterparts...perhaps some of this could have been avoided.

It has been 20+ years since I've crossed there. But 20 years ago the border was crowded, with long lines waiting to cross to go to their jobs in America.