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So, in addition to all of the other news of the Fantastic Four reboot (Michael B. Jordon potentially as the Human Torch, Miles Teller testing for Reed Richard), they may not only use Dr. Doom as the villain, but may in fact make him a woman for it.

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=114455

...We really don't need a change like this. Just give us a Dr. Doom who captures the pride and power that Doom possesses, that's all I ask.

I'm sure @Shannow would have an interesting opinion on this.

Oh god.

Her new origin will be that she secretly wanted to bone Reed all this time. Or that Reed rejected her in favour of Sue. You just watch. It'll be a fucking love triangle.

ThatNickGuy said:

Oh god.

Her new origin will be that she secretly wanted to bone Reed all this time. Or that Reed rejected her in favour of Sue. You just watch. It'll be a fucking love triangle.

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That is my fear. They'll basically just do what the previous Fantastic Four films did, but just add a new layer of dumb.

filmfanatic said:

That is my fear. They'll basically just do what the previous Fantastic Four films did, but just add a new layer of dumb.

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Which will be equally amazing, given how dumb the previous ones were.

And I say that as one of the few people that didn't hate the last two!

they are considering the possibility of switching the character's gender.

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Might possibly, perhaps, maybe, sorta kinda looking into it. ...Maybe.

Though I do agree that if they change Doom to a woman for the purpose of having a love triangle, it is a stupid move.

ThatNickGuy said:

Oh god.

Her new origin will be that she secretly wanted to bone Reed all this time. Or that Reed rejected her in favour of Sue. You just watch. It'll be a fucking love triangle.

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What if Sue is the one who rejected her?

figmentPez said:

What if Sue is the one who rejected her?

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And by "needs a lock," I mean handcuffs because OHHH MYYYY.

Besides my main complaints about making Dr. Doom a woman, I honestly think they should save Doom until the second film, so that they can develop his character without also having to set up the Fantastic Four.

My pick for the villain for a first Fantastic Four film: Mole Man.

ThatNickGuy said:

And by "needs a lock," I mean handcuffs because OHHH MYYYY.

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That is the best thing I've read all day, by miles.

If they get a Reed that young it seems more like this would go Ultimates, but then who knows. This sounds like it might just end up a weird Mario Bros. kind of mess.

Movie makers release news claiming consideration of making drastic changes to beloved franchise in an effort to whip up internet rage and speculation guaranteeing that major online outlets report it as "news" and people continue caring about something that isn't even in production yet.

Film at 11.

I don't see any problem with this?

also holy shit Michael B. Jordan as Human Torch would be AWESOME

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I don't see any problem with this?

also holy shit Michael B. Jordan as Human Torch would be AWESOME

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Ditto everything he said.

Look, I just want to see Meryl Streep win the Oscar for playing Dr. Doom

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Look, I just want to see Meryl Streep win the Oscar for playing Dr. Doom

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...Actually, that sounds kind of awesome.

Honestly, I'll cool it off my initial response to making Dr. Doom a woman. If they can come up with something interesting and capture the spirit of the character, I would be fine with that. My main concern is that this might just be a change done for the sake of making changes.

filmfanatic said:

My main concern is that this might just be a change done for the sake of making changes.

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And? There need to be more leading type roles for women. The gender disparity in hollywood is huuuuge, and even worse for minorities.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

And? There need to be more leading type roles for women. The gender disparity in hollywood is huuuuge, and even worse for minorities.

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Sorry, but recasting an iconic comic book villain who has been male for over 50 years as a woman just cause is in no way going to fix the gender disparity in Hollywood. I am sorry but I don't understand the logic behind the decisions they are making for this film. At the rate they are going they should just create their own team of 4 elemental based heroes, call it the Fantastical Foursome and then they can tell whatever story they want.

Maybe instead of trying to shoehorn an unnecessary character gender-bend, they could work on making a good superhero movie with a female lead?

In fact, I'm surprised there's never been even ONE female lead superhero movie. Not even one.

/cough My Super Ex-Girlfriend...

[Crosses his arms and wishfully looks to the sky.]

Yep. Not a single one.

Supergi. . .

Yeah, you're right.

Here's hoping the Ms. Marvel film with Katee Sackhoff finally gives us a good one.

filmfanatic said:

Here's hoping the Captain Marvel film with Katee Sackhoff finally gives us a good one.

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Fixed that for you. (Though sadly Sackoff denied the rumor)

Cheesy1 said:

Supergi. . .

Yeah, you're right.

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Gryfter said:

Fixed that for you. (Though sadly Sackoff denied the rumor)

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That's a shame. I had heard reports that was going to be part of phase three for Marvel.

Gryfter said:

Sorry, but recasting an iconic comic book villain who has been male for over 50 years as a woman just cause is in no way going to fix the gender disparity in Hollywood.

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Sorry, but you're wrong? Casting more women in big budget movies is literally fixing the gender disparity in Hollywood. I don't know how you don't understand that.

I do not see how being male is vital to Dr. Doom's character. It could be done by a woman without sacrificing any characterization.

I'm not invested in this movie, but I have to say I'm interested in a gender-flipped villain. But then I have a dream of playing Sweeney Todd one day.

Keep her in the armor until the end of the film and reveal, Samus-like.

klew said:

Keep her in the armor until the end of the film and reveal, Samus-like.

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Gaaaah that sounds cool!

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Sorry, but you're wrong? Casting more women in big budget movies is literally fixing the gender disparity in Hollywood. I don't know how you don't understand that.

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Unless you, maybe, want a long-term fix, and not a slap-dash effort that backfires and only ends up making more resistance to fixing gender disparity because "just look at how poorly movies with more women did at the box office".

If you're going to put women in more roles, put them in those roles for the right reasons, and there are plenty of right reasons to be found.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Sorry, but you're wrong? Casting more women in big budget movies is literally fixing the gender disparity in Hollywood. I don't know how you don't understand that.

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It may fix the gender disparity in employment, but I don't see how it will fix the disparity in stories and such. Victoria VD could unleash a weapon which gender-bends the entire population of Earth into biological females, but I fail to see how a movie about this would legitimately fix gender disparity IRL aside from employing more female actors.

--Patrick

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Sorry, but you're wrong? Casting more women in big budget movies is literally fixing the gender disparity in Hollywood. I don't know how you don't understand that.

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My point is, the gender disparity in all of Hollywood won't be fixed just by taking what has been a iconic male villain from a comic book genre and casting him as a female in one movie. Great work could be done if the suits involved would actually develop a blockbuster superhero film with a female lead ala Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, or even the Birds of Prey (that would have three women). That might have a chance to begin to change the way people think and put more movies like it into production. If they go down this road it will be more of the same for years to come when the movie fails to make enough money and the suits can point to it and say, "see what happens if you put a woman in that role."

If you think the producers making this film are thinking about gender disparity then why not also go ahead and hire a black actress to be Sue Storm to Jordan's Johnny Storm, that would make sense as they are, traditionally, brother and sister. And what a great stride for disparity, we would not only get a woman but a black woman in the lead female role of the Fantastic Four. They probably thought, they'd have to deal with some backlash from those against interracial couples (Sue and Reed) so lets just make Dr Doom a woman, cause that will piss less people off and really only the comic fans and once they're gone we can make whatever changes we want.

I'll skip it.

Gryfter said:

I'll skip it.

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I don't know where or how to begin with this post

I just realized something else.

Assuming they go with Doom's original origin (and at this point, I doubt it), remember why Doom wears the iron mask? Because his face was horribly disfigured. Many writers have assumed that it wasn't horribly disfigured, but that it was a minor scar. But to the perfect ego of Victor Von Doom, this was a huge deal.

Now, imagine that, but in a woman's role. Suddenly, it becomes a HUGE writing cliche of a woman obsessed with her looks. Add on what I would assume (because Hollywood) that the reason she turns even is because Reed turned her down or something, and you have a horribly cliched and sexist character who is obsessed with her looks and is only defined by a man.

You guys are really projecting and assuming a LOT about this movie considering it doesn't have a fucking script yet

Charlie Don't Surf said:

You guys are really projecting and assuming a LOT about this movie considering it doesn't have a fucking script yet

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I don't have much faith in Hollywood for things like this.

Also, there's nothing wrong with speculation.

ThatNickGuy said:

I don't have much faith in Hollywood for things like this.

Also, there's nothing wrong with speculation.

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It's only wrong to speculate when you use Charlie's own ideas against him

Charlie Don't Surf said:

You guys are really projecting and assuming a LOT about this movie considering it doesn't have a fucking script yet

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Isn't it silly when people make assumptions about characterization based on 50-so-odd years of characterization?

also

much?

Covar said:

Isn't it silly when people make assumptions about characterization based on 50-so-odd years of characterization?

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I know! Victoria Von Doom, tragically scarred victim of a car bomb in war-torn Latveria and scorned by her family, rises from semi-obscurity to rule the kingdom with an iron fist (no, really...it's at the end of her cybernetic arm). She may be a tyrant, but she has a heart of gold, defending her kingdom with a mother's love against the tyranny of foreigners, especially her arch-enemies, the Spectacular Six, the leader of whom is married to her ex-lesbian lover, Tammy Tempest. Ooo, she hates that bitch SO much.

--Patrick

Honestly, I haven't yet read one good reason why it matters what gender Dr. Doom is. People are too attached to things that don't matter. Let go a little. There are alternate takes on all kinds of things, from Shakespeare to Batman. The original always remains intact and sometimes having Superman land in the USSR or Dr. Doom being a woman or The Human Torch being black (gasp!) makes for a great story. It's a movie. It's alright.

Espy said:

Honestly, I haven't yet read one good reason why it matters what gender Dr. Doom is. People are too attached to things that don't matter. Let go a little. There are alternate takes on all kinds of things, from Shakespeare to Batman. The original always remains intact and sometimes having Superman land in the USSR or Dr. Doom being a woman or The Human Torch being black (gasp!) makes for a great story. It's a movie. It's alright.

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That's okay, I haven't heard one good reason for gender bending Doom but it's moot anyway as FOX will do whatever they want with the license.

Gryfter said:

FOX will do whatever they want with the license.

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Also very true.

As long as Spider-Man is white, I'm good.

Casting Human Torch as a black kid is just the absolute laziest thing I've ever heard. Picking the brother of the siblings of the group really highlights the fact that they only want to put the bare minimum amount of effort into diversifying the cast.

You can pretty much assume their thought process was along this line:

• Mr. Fantastic is arguably the best choice, but then you have the problem of an African American male lead. Who's supposed to be a super smart doctor no less. No one will buy that, and we can't have an interracial relationship, especially not a black man and a white woman.
• The Thing could be black! No wait he'll spend pretty much the entire movie as a Rock Monster, we won't get any credit for that. We might even get criticized.
• The Invisible Woman is already a female, so we shouldn't double up.
• The only one left is Human Torch. Ok that sounds good to me. Wait, aren't the Human Torch and the Invisible Woman siblings? Yea but we'll just say one of them's adopted here, and anyone upset by this is just a big ole racist.

So yeah it's the Human Torch by process of elimination.

I think @ThatNickGuy did a great job explaining just why a female Doom would not be well received (unfair as it may be), unless of course you completely remove all the vain and arrogant characteristics from the character which raises the question of why bother at all since all you'll be left with for an antagonist is a Rule 63 Doctor Doom cosplayer.

No one said it would be well received. If there's one thing comic fans are known for is being irrationally pissy when things aren't exactly how they prefer them to be.

Espy said:

No one said it would be well received. If there's one thing comic fans are known for is being irrationally pissy when things aren't exactly how they prefer them to be.

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I should clarify a little better. It wouldn't be well received because it would come across as an incredibly sexist portrayal of a woman, even though it would just be Doctor Doom in a woman's body.

Espy said:

No one said it would be well received. If there's one thing comic fans are known for is being irrationally pissy when things aren't exactly how they prefer them to be.

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I've said before that the gender-bending is NOT the issue. The issue is that I don't have faith in Hollywood not to write the character horribly cliched, as a broken hearted woman bent on revenge with vanity issues.

I guess we will see. It probably won't be good, but my guess is it will have nothing to do with a gender bendsd doom.

Gryfter said:

If they go down this road it will be more of the same for years to come when the movie fails to make enough money and the suits can point to it and say, "see what happens if you put a woman in that role."

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See Catwoman / Elektra "proving" that 'comic book movies with female leads don't make any money' as opposed to 'terrible comic book movies don't make any money'.

mroosc1979 said:

See Catwoman / Elektra "proving" that 'comic book movies with female leads don't make any money' as opposed to 'terrible comic book movies don't make any money'.

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What are you talking about? There's never been a Catwoman or Elektra movie. Silly man.

ThatNickGuy said:

What are you talking about? There's never been a Catwoman or Elektra movie. Silly man.

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Whoops, you're right, that was just some horrible fever dream I had. Please disregard my above post.

Actually there was a Catwoman movie starring Halle Berry and Sharon Stone and Benjamin Bratt. It came out a few years ago and was really poorly received.

Also, Elektra had a movie starring TV star Jennifer Garner as a spinoff of her character in the Daredevil movie starring Ben Affleck. It wasn't very successful.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Actually there was a Catwoman movie starring Halle Berry and Sharon Stone and Benjamin Bratt. It came out a few years ago and was really poorly received.

Also, Elektra had a movie starring TV star Jennifer Garner as a spinoff of her character in the Daredevil movie starring Ben Affleck. It wasn't very successful.

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You tell the most hilarious lies, Charlie.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Actually there was a Catwoman movie starring Halle Berry and Sharon Stone and Benjamin Bratt.

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Lies! The only people to play Catwoman in live action are Julie Newmar & Michelle Pfeiffer! (Anne Hathaway doesn't count, she only played "Selina Kyle" but not "Catwoman")

Wow, someone even went to lengths as to photoshop Garner into a mock poster. The lengths some people will go, I swear.

ThatNickGuy said:

Wow, someone even went to lengths as to photoshop Garner into a mock poster. The lengths some people will go, I swear.

Spoiler

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Your mock poster being a broken image seems oddly appropriate...

Espy said:

Honestly, I haven't yet read one good reason why it matters what gender Dr. Doom is. People are too attached to things that don't matter. Let go a little. There are alternate takes on all kinds of things, from Shakespeare to Batman. The original always remains intact and sometimes having Superman land in the USSR or Dr. Doom being a woman or The Human Torch being black (gasp!) makes for a great story. It's a movie. It's alright.

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I remember there being shit flown when they turned Starbuck from BSG from a man into a woman. Seemed to work out alright.

Female Dr. Doom could only be a step up from the last two garbage portrayals of the character.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

Frank said:

Female Dr. Doom could only be a step up from the last two garbage portrayals of the character.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

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Thats what I'm saying, I mean what do we have to lose? It's honestly isn't going to be worse. And if it sucks just wait 5 years for the reboot.

Espy said:

Thats what I'm saying, I mean what do we have to lose? It's honestly isn't going to be worse. And if it sucks just wait 5 years for the reboot.

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I guess what we have to lose depends on how much importance studio executives are putting on this. Are they just looking at it as a Fantastic Four film, or would they look at it as a comic book movie with a female in a lead role? If it's the latter, and they blame it's tanking on putting a woman in the role, then that could jeopardize other potential projects. Sure, the Fantastic Four will get a reboot, eventually, but what about a female Captain Marvel, or a Gen X reboot focusing on the female characters?

Nah, they are looking at it only as a way to hold on the rights and maybe make some bucks. The Fantastic Four film won't be the thing to make or break women in leading roles.

Espy said:

Nah, they are looking at it only as a way to hold on the rights

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Wouldn't be the first time.

--Patrick

ThatNickGuy said:

Oh god.

Her new origin will be that she secretly wanted to bone Reed all this time. Or that Reed rejected her in favour of Sue. You just watch. It'll be a fucking love triangle.

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They still don't need to make him a woman just for that. I mean Doom is pretty much stalking him already .

The thing is, when you're changing characters from 50 or so years ago's gender, you're changing (comic book) "history".
Is there any real reason why Doom couldn't be a woman? Or Torch black? Well, no, not really (though I do agree with Nick's point - Doom's story when made into a woman seems horribly cliché right away). The only reason they're (mostly white) (mostly male) is because of the power structure as it was at the time of conception. The only thing you're "hurting" or "changing" is established lore, people's perception of a character,...
The same can sometimes be seen in historical movies and series. Modern takes on things happening in medieval times, the Far West, Roman times, etc etc, have been shoehorning in female characters left and right - we happen to have a patriarchal history, so most "historically important" stuff happened by men - and since history was recorded by men, too, well, we don't always know much about the women. Still, it's a fairly accepted historical fact that the number of female knights in the Crusades can be counted on one hand. Literally - over all the crusades together. Yet every movie made after, say, 1995, will happen to have at least one warmaiden or amazon-like female fighter to break up the sausage fest. During Roman times, women were the masters of the house...But had no power at all outside or in political affairs. Go watch Rome, or Spartacus, and you'll see plenty fairly strong female characters. Most of them are exaggerated versions of characters who really lived and were female, though.
Is "male" an integral port of the personality/character of, say, Emperor Nero? Or Abraham Lincoln? Strictly historically, yes - neither of them could have held the position they did if they were female, not because they'd be weaker but because of the society they lived in. Is making Batman female any better or worse?
I dunno. Yes, one's "real" history and one is fictional history - but in both cases you're, at most, making an "adaptation of" or "based on" story. How many people would freak out over a movie where General Patton's suddenly a woman? Hitler?

Anyway, my point, because once again I've somehow lost my train of thought: while gender, and skin color, and sexual orientation, and a lot of other such variables, aren't necessarily "core" to a character², changing them in opposition to established lore/knowledge/background without a good reason other than "we want more gender X/race X/orientation X/... in our movie" is an ugly, hacky way of dealing with these issues. More modern IPs and characters tend to be more diverse, and there's no reason why "older" characters couldn't meet/fight/... newly written characters - especially in superhero movies, where the opponents tend to change fairly often anyway.


²For some characters, these are essential and core to their character. Making a movie about MLK or Shaft or Malcolm X and making them white or hispanic would be quite weird

Bubble181 said:

The thing is, when you're changing characters from 50 or so years ago's gender, you're changing (comic book) "history".
Is there any real reason why Doom couldn't be a woman? Or Torch black? Well, no, not really ...

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I want to point out that if you were to make Johnny Storm black without making Sue Storm black you're doing a bit of a disservice to the Invisible Woman. Their mother passed early in their lives, and their father was drunk or in prison for most of their formative years, which led to Susan being Johnny's primary mother figure. It's the biggest source of the characters strength and is why Johnny winds up on the rocket. It's a brilliantly simple plot point.

Covar said:

I want to point out that if you were to make Johnny Storm black without making Sue Storm black you're doing a bit of a disservice to the Invisible Woman. Their mother passed early in their lives, and their father was drunk or in prison for most of their formative years, which led to Susan being Johnny's primary mother figure. It's the biggest source of the characters strength and is why Johnny winds up on the rocket. It's a brilliantly simple plot point.

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They were in the same foster family

BOOM I'M A GENIUS

Dammit, he's right.

I hate that.

If you really want to you can still see a problem there.
Because obviously the black kid is the one from a foster family, with crappy/drunk/etc parents, while the white guy gets to be the rich genius. Racist stereotyping.

hey, we managed to avoid an interracial relationship, let's just be happy about that. Amirite?!

Well, so far we at least have the FF themselves picked. A young hip team, I guess? More of an Ultimate version?

Don't they seem... kinda young to be the Fantastic Four?

AshburnerX said:

Don't they seem... kinda young to be the Fantastic Four?

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The Ultimate versions, at least the first iteration, were pretty young. All the rumors make this sound like they're trying to get a young cast to pull in a young audience. I'm willing to bet big money they focus heavily on Reed/Sue and some love drama. I mean, the first two FF movies were okay at their best, so I'm not really expecting anything from this one, either.

I never thought I'd say this, but I think I actually prefer the cast of the other Fantastic Four films. Well, okay, maybe not Jessica Alba. Maybe.

bhamv3 said:

I never thought I'd say this, but I think I actually prefer the cast of the other Fantastic Four films. Well, okay, maybe not Jessica Alba. Maybe.

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I'm going to give Jessica Alba a break on this one. By all accounts of her and her co-stars, her lackluster performance was the result of the director not letting her act and instead insisting she be vapid eye candy.

bhamv3 said:

I never thought I'd say this, but I think I actually prefer the cast of the other Fantastic Four films. Well, okay, maybe not Jessica Alba. Maybe.

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I still think Michael Chiklis was a great choice for the Thing from those films.

So... CGI thing? Cause even if he bulks up Jamie Bell is not that big. Chiklis was the best thing about the last ones.

Oh well, I will accept that this isn't my FF, have fun with it.

Gryfter said:

So... CGI thing? Cause even if he bulks up Jamie Bell is not that big. Chiklis was the best thing about the last ones.

Oh well, I will accept that this isn't my FF, have fun with it.

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Yeah, it's a CGI Thing. I had read that somewhere before.

Aren't astronauts like 40-50?

sixpackshaker said:

Aren't astronauts like 40-50?

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Well, if they stick to doing it more like the Ultimate Universe, Ben Grimm wasn't an astronaut. He traveled the world for a bit before crossing paths again with Reed, who was trying to develop a method of teleportation which passed through the Negative Zone. That teleporter (along with Victor Von Doom messing with the coordinates on it, believing his to be superior) is the origin source of the Fantastic Four's powers in the Ultimate Universe.

Yeah the Ultimate FF were barely in their 20's I think, maybe even a little younger.

filmfanatic said:

Well, if they stick to doing it more like the Ultimate Universe, Ben Grimm wasn't an astronaut. He traveled the world for a bit before crossing paths again with Reed, who was trying to develop a method of teleportation which passed through the Negative Zone. That teleporter (along with Victor Von Doom messing with the coordinates on it, believing his to be superior) is the origin source of the Fantastic Four's powers in the Ultimate Universe.

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Wow, so instead of the ultra cool Cosmic Rays we get Brundlefly?

Gryfter said:

Wow, so instead of the ultra cool Cosmic Rays we get Brundlefly?

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Pretty much. The teleportation affects each of them in different ways, giving them their powers. In fact, the previous films borrowed a little from the Ultimate Universe take by having Dr. Doom be a part of the teleportation crew and his effect of the trip being that his body becomes metallic. At least the films didn't go fully with the Ultimate Universe, where he was Victor Van Damme.

filmfanatic said:

Pretty much. The teleportation affects each of them in different ways, giving them their powers. In fact, the previous films borrowed a little from the Ultimate Universe take by having Dr. Doom be a part of the teleportation crew and his effect of the trip being that his body becomes metallic. At least the films didn't go fully with the Ultimate Universe, where he was Victor Van Damme.

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And he had hooves. Don't forget he had hooves. And didn't he breathe bugs or something?

ThatNickGuy said:

And he had hooves. Don't forget he had hooves. And didn't he breathe bugs or something?

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He did. I thought I had forgotten that. Hell, the comics tried to forget the hooves and bug-breathing thing when, since his first appearance with the cloven-hooved metal form, they showed him now decked out in his classic armor.