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http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/11/ ... WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The CIA withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress during the Bush administration on direct orders from then-Vice President Dick Cheney, current CIA director Leon Panetta told members of Congress, a knowledgeable source confirmed to CNN. The disclosure to the House and Senate intelligence committees about Cheney's involvement by Panetta was first reported in the New York Times. Efforts to contact Cheney for reaction were unsuccessful late Saturday.

The source who spoke to CNN did not want to be identified by name because the matter is classified, and CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano declined comment on the report.

"It's not agency practice to discuss what may or may not have been said in a classified briefing," Gimigliano said. "When a CIA unit brought this matter to Director Panetta's attention, it was with the recommendation that it be shared with Congress. That was also his view, and he took swift, decisive action to put it into effect."

The fact that Panetta recently briefed lawmakers on an unspecified counterterrorism program was first revealed Wednesday, when a letter from seven House Democrats to Panetta was made public. The June 26 letter characterizes Panetta as testifying that the CIA "concealed significant actions from all members of Congress, and misled members for a number of years from 2001 to this week."

The letter contained no details about what information the CIA officials allegedly concealed or how they purportedly misled members of Congress.

A knowledgeable source familiar with the matter said the counterterrorism program in question was initiated shortly after the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington. The program was on-again, off-again and was never fully operational, but was rather, a tool put on the shelf that could have been used, the source said. Panetta has put an end to the program, according to the source.

The disclosures follow a May spat between the spy agency and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who accused the CIA of misleading Congress during a secret 2002 briefing on harsh interrogation techniques being used on terrorism suspects. The CIA responded that Pelosi was told about the harsh techniques, including waterboarding, at the briefing.

However, the June 26 letter from the seven House Democrats noted that Panetta told CIA employees in a May 15 letter -- a response to the Pelosi allegation -- that it was not CIA policy to mislead Congress. The letter from the House Democrats asked Panetta to correct his May 15 statement "in light of your testimony."

Asked about the Democrats' letter, CIA spokesman George Little said Panetta "stands by his May 15 statement."

"This agency and this director believe it is vital to keep the Congress fully and currently informed. Director Panetta's actions back that up," Little said in a statement. "As the letter from these ... representatives notes, it was the CIA itself that took the initiative to notify the oversight committees."

The latest revelations come as lawmakers consider expanding the number of House and Senate members privy to the kind of secret briefing that Pelosi received.

The White House opposes a measure that would increase the number of briefing participants from the current eight to 40 members of Congress. A White House memo warned President Obama's senior advisers would recommend a veto of the bill if it contained the expanded briefing provision.

I'd wait for an apology from those who made unsubstantiated assumptions about who was lying about whether congress members were properly informed, but for some reason I think I'd be wasting my time.

Interesting. These are things I thought we'd never get to the bottom of. Hopefully the public will be informed even more. Lack of oversight allows for corruption. When that corruption occurs, measures must be taken to prevent it from happening in the future, no matter what party is in charge.

Krisken said:

I'd wait for an apology from those who made unsubstantiated assumptions about who was lying about whether congress members were properly informed, but for some reason I think I'd be wasting my time.

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GasBandit never apologizes. You should know that by now. :eyeroll:

No mention of the man sized safe in his office?! The Daily Show starts up again next week, right?!

Also, this has got to be the least surprising news ever...

@Li3n said:

No mention of the man sized safe in his office?! The Daily Show starts up again next week, right?!

Also, this has got to be the least surprising news ever...

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At least it was a slow news week up until Friday. Stewert has a habit of taking the week off when really crazy shit happens. At least this would have had to wait until he was back on Monday anyways.

True... i was expecting Cheney to have kept hidden the fact that they where building a Death Star or something...

Dude, I'm waiting for the revelation that Cheney had a time-machine in his office, and was personally responsible for JFK's assassination.

TeKeo said:

Dude, I'm waiting for the revelation that Cheney had a time-machine in his office, and was personally responsible for JFK's assassination.

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Well, I don't read DailyKos, but I wonder if I put that in google search...

TeKeo said:

Dude, I'm waiting for the revelation that Cheney had a time-machine in his office, and was personally responsible for JFK's assassination.

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It's really going to fuck you up when it turns out that the Time Machine originally belonged to JFK, and that JFK used it first: to assassinate Cheney in 2011.

Rob King said:

TeKeo said:

Dude, I'm waiting for the revelation that Cheney had a time-machine in his office, and was personally responsible for JFK's assassination.

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It's really going to fuck you up when it turns out that the Time Machine originally belonged to JFK, and that JFK used it first: to assassinate Cheney in 2011.

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http://www.swans.com/library/art12/hankb01.html Is that what this is? I'm too tired to make any sense of it.

Rob King said:

TeKeo said:

Dude, I'm waiting for the revelation that Cheney had a time-machine in his office, and was personally responsible for JFK's assassination.

Click to expand...

It's really going to smurf you up when it turns out that the Time Machine originally belonged to JFK, and that JFK used it first: to assassinate Cheney in 2011.

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So who warned current-day Cheney?

It must have been NIXON!

TeKeo said:

Rob King said:

TeKeo said:

Dude, I'm waiting for the revelation that Cheney had a time-machine in his office, and was personally responsible for JFK's assassination.

Click to expand...

It's really going to smurf you up when it turns out that the Time Machine originally belonged to JFK, and that JFK used it first: to assassinate Cheney in 2011.

Click to expand...

So who warned current-day Cheney?

It must have been NIXON!

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No, no. Nixon warned him about Harry Whittington. Maybe he uncovered the rest of the plot from Whittington at gunpoint ...

According to wikipedia ...

The shooting occurred somewhere around 1730 hours and 1830 hours.

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That certainly fits with the hypothesis of a time-travel enabled Cheney.

So let me get this straight... a secret intelligent agency had a secret operation, and it wasn't revealed to a non-confidential organisation?

I realise that you want oversight and all, but surely the needs to know principle still applies sometimes?

Krisken said:

http://www.swans.com/library/art12/hankb01.html Is that what this is? I'm too tired to make any sense of it.

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Yeah, I have no idea what I just read.

Mr_Chaz said:

So let me get this straight... a secret intelligent agency had a secret operation, and it wasn't revealed to a non-confidential organisation?

I realise that you want oversight and all, but surely the needs to know principle still applies sometimes?

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Not exactly. They lied to their oversight committee. Power unchecked is power corrupt.

Mr_Chaz said:

So let me get this straight... a secret intelligent agency had a secret operation, and it wasn't revealed to a non-confidential organisation?

I realise that you want oversight and all, but surely the needs to know principle still applies sometimes?

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It would, if the things they needed to keep from us weren't patently illegal or morally reprehensible. 9 times out of 10, these "need to know" programs are ether unethical experimental programs that will never give results, assassination programs, or pork earmarked as a black project to keep it under wraps.

Krisken said:

Mr_Chaz said:

So let me get this straight... a secret intelligent agency had a secret operation, and it wasn't revealed to a non-confidential organisation?

I realise that you want oversight and all, but surely the needs to know principle still applies sometimes?

Click to expand...

Not exactly. They lied to their oversight committee. Power unchecked is power corrupt.

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Right that makes more sense. Yeah, lying to a specific oversight committee is pretty damn out of order.

Thanks.

Krisken said:

Mr_Chaz said:

So let me get this straight... a secret intelligent agency had a secret operation, and it wasn't revealed to a non-confidential organisation?

I realise that you want oversight and all, but surely the needs to know principle still applies sometimes?

Click to expand...

Not exactly. They lied to their oversight committee.

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Which, admittedly, is like 10 members of Congress and assorted aides, but still.

-- Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:04 pm --

Rob King said:

TeKeo said:

\"Rob King\":3ljk3c0h said:

TeKeo said:

Dude, I'm waiting for the revelation that Cheney had a time-machine in his office, and was personally responsible for JFK's assassination.

Click to expand...

It's really going to smurf you up when it turns out that the Time Machine originally belonged to JFK, and that JFK used it first: to assassinate Cheney in 2011.

Click to expand...

So who warned current-day Cheney?

It must have been NIXON!

Click to expand...

No, no. Nixon warned him about Harry Whittington. Maybe he uncovered the rest of the plot from Whittington at gunpoint ...

According to wikipedia ...

The shooting occurred somewhere around 1730 hours and 1830 hours.

Click to expand...

That certainly fits with the hypothesis of a time-travel enabled Cheney.[/quote:3ljk3c0h]

So if he got the rest from Whittington, we can assume that Cheney was attempting to prevent JFK from even getting in the time machine. Otherwise, JFK will assassinate him anyway in 2011.

This would further imply that Cheney finnangled out the secret of the Kennedy cloning banks from Whittington and had RFK assassinated later just to make sure.

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TeKeo said:

So if he got the rest from Whittington, we can assume that Cheney was attempting to prevent JFK from even getting in the time machine. Otherwise, JFK will assassinate him anyway in 2011.

This would further imply that Cheney finnangled out the secret of the Kennedy cloning banks from Whittington and had RFK assassinated later just to make sure.

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Oh god. I'm having trouble keeping up.

This is what I understand so far. Cheney gets assassinated by Kennedy in 2011. To prevent this, he looks for the time machine to go back and stop Kennedy. Whittington was sent by Kennedy (or someone else?) to prevent this, but Nixon knew, and warned Cheney. Cheney attacked Whittington, and got the location of the machine, as well as the details for the cloning program.

Cheney assassinates Kennedy Prime before he could use the machine, but after meditating on the implications of the cloning program, he wonders if one of the clones could end up being his assailant. Now he devotes his time to hunting down the other clones.

Oh, the questions. What is Nixon's real involvement? Is it possible that Watergate was a conspiracy to discredit Nixon? Was Kennedy Prime evil, or just misunderstood? Can the clone-hunting be tied to operations in Iraq or Afghanistan? Who else knows? Could Obama possibly be from the future, sent back to sort this whole mess out? And what is the status of Whittington now? Obviously he doesn't pose a threat or Cheney would have finished the job. Could he have replaced him with a doppelganger?

Rob King said:

Oh, the questions. What is Nixon's real involvement? Is it possible that Watergate was a conspiracy to discredit Nixon? Was Kennedy Prime evil, or just misunderstood? Can the clone-hunting be tied to operations in Iraq or Afghanistan? Who else knows? Could Obama possibly be from the future, sent back to sort this whole mess out? And what is the status of Whittington now? Obviously he doesn't pose a threat or Cheney would have finished the job. Could he have replaced him with a doppelganger?

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I imagine Nixon is trying to ensure that Cheney is present to prevent the event that Kennedy-Prime is looking to ensure in the future. The entire Iraq operations (both of them) were clearly intended to be hunting down KP's remaining cloning tanks, with the last one obviously somewhere in Iran.

Whittington was more likely implanted with false memories of the incident so Cheney can use him to feed false info back to KP.

Obama is still a mystery; his motivations are difficult to pin down, beyond his charismatic bid for power. Cloned warrior-god from the future is a distinct possibility.

Doesn't really matter... next time someone uses a time machine it will all change anyhow...

@Li3n said:

Doesn't really matter... next time someone uses a time machine it will all change anyhow...

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What if they already have?

Then it already changed and it's even more pointless?!

How do you know it's no longer the current state? The use of a time machine doesn't immediately imply that the status quo changes.

Because if the status quo stayed the same then we'd be living in a universe with a stable time line, and thus no changes to the past could be made (unless they created another dimension)...

@Li3n said:

Because if the status quo stayed the same then we'd be living in a universe with a stable time line, and thus no changes to the past could be made (unless they created another dimension)...

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This is only true if the very act of using a time-machine has a destabilizing effect on absolutely everything in the new version of the timeline, as opposed to the time traveller needing to actually do something (besides simple observation, which could be sufficient).

If I take a time-machine right now, go back to my grandparents' time and change the strawberry jam in my grandfather's sandwich to orange marmalade (which he also loves), it's highly unlikely that events will be sufficiently disturbed to have any effect on Cheney's and KP's decisions to use their time-machines.

Or then again, it might. Either way, it wasn't the time machine that caused the change, it was what I did with it.

TeKeo said:

@Li3n said:

Because if the status quo stayed the same then we'd be living in a universe with a stable time line, and thus no changes to the past could be made (unless they created another dimension)...

Click to expand...

This is only true if the very act of using a time-machine has a destabilizing effect on absolutely everything in the new version of the timeline, as opposed to the time traveller needing to actually do something (besides simple observation, which could be sufficient).

If I take a time-machine right now, go back to my grandparents' time and change the strawberry jam in my grandfather's sandwich to orange marmalade (which he also loves), it's highly unlikely that events will be sufficiently disturbed to have any effect on Cheney's and KP's decisions to use their time-machines.

Or then again, it might. Either way, it wasn't the time machine that caused the change, it was what I did with it.

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I don't like how most Science Fiction deals with time travel. I subscribe more to the inevitability of time. Kind of like in 12 Monkeys.

Alternate/Splitting timelines just don't do it for me.

Also, I figured that this would be a fun enough lazy Sunday afternoon project: "Cheney - Genesis." It's horribly rough, hasn't been edited at all, and just sort of typed as a flow of consciousness thing, but if anyone has any thoughts, let me know.

@TeKeo

The mere act of you being in the past adds new matter to the universe... you better believe it affect stuff...

I subscribe more to the inevitability of time

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That's one of the most depressing things ever... because if the past is inevitable so is the future... unless it's simply a paradox prevention mechanism that prevents one from screwing up time (like let's say that you can't go back to kill Hitler because then you'd have no reason to go back in the first place, but you could change stuff by accident, even kill Hitler if you where there for other, unrelated reasons).

@Li3n said:

I subscribe more to the inevitability of time

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That's one of the most depressing things ever... because if the past is inevitable so is the future... unless it's simply a paradox prevention mechanism that prevents one from screwing up time (like let's say that you can't go back to kill Hitler because then you'd have no reason to go back in the first place, but you could change stuff by accident, even kill Hitler if you where there for other, unrelated reasons).

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Exactly. Well, let's make no bones about it: if we ever developed a time machine, and it turned out that the timeline IS inevitable, then it would be the catalyst for widespread fatalism. It would be difficult to live your life with knowledge of the future, but we as a race would get over it some way or another.

Hrm... For some reason I read the title as "Disney kept CIA program from Congress, source says."

This article is much less awesome than that would have been.

Rob King said:

[quote="@Li3n":1zj5t65t]

I subscribe more to the inevitability of time

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That's one of the most depressing things ever... because if the past is inevitable so is the future... unless it's simply a paradox prevention mechanism that prevents one from screwing up time (like let's say that you can't go back to kill Hitler because then you'd have no reason to go back in the first place, but you could change stuff by accident, even kill Hitler if you where there for other, unrelated reasons).

Click to expand...

Exactly. Well, let's make no bones about it: if we ever developed a time machine, and it turned out that the timeline IS inevitable, then it would be the catalyst for widespread fatalism. It would be difficult to live your life with knowledge of the future, but we as a race would get over it some way or another.[/quote:1zj5t65t]

There's a SF book by Roger Sawyer about this called Flash Forward (soon to also be a TV show on ABC). It's pretty light in reading (and some things in it are a little silly), but it's moderately diverting. The basic premise is that a worldwide event gives everyone on Earth a flash of the future 30 years from today, and then deals with how they react.

Rob King said:

Exactly. Well, let's make no bones about it: if we ever developed a time machine, and it turned out that the timeline IS inevitable, then it would be the catalyst for widespread fatalism. It would be difficult to live your life with knowledge of the future, but we as a race would get over it some way or another.

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Get over it or not, it wouldn't be a question, we'd just check the future to see, and then just do it... BORING....

Hrm... For some reason I read the title as "Disney kept CIA program from Congress, source says."

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Sure, that might happen... and 10 minutes later everyone that read it would be killed by house of mouse ninja sleeper agents... and Walt Disney's frozen head would mysteriously start smirking.

Krisken said:

I'd wait for an apology from those who made unsubstantiated assumptions about who was lying about whether congress members were properly informed, but for some reason I think I'd be wasting my time.

Click to expand...

This still has nothing to do with the Pelosi issue. They aren't talking about the torture program, apparently this was related to an assassination program going after Al Qaeda leaders.

It's unclear whether this was even illegal. Apparently if it is considered to be sensitive enough, and a leak is possible, they don't have to disclose it to congress. If Cheney did something illegal, I say go after him. I just don't want this to push aside the whole issue with Pelosi.

Shakey said:

Krisken said:

I'd wait for an apology from those who made unsubstantiated assumptions about who was lying about whether congress members were properly informed, but for some reason I think I'd be wasting my time.

Click to expand...

This still has nothing to do with the Pelosi issue. They aren't talking about the torture program, apparently this was related to an assassination program going after Al Qaeda leaders.

It's unclear whether this was even illegal. Apparently if it is considered to be sensitive enough, and a leak is possible, they don't have to disclose it to congress. If Cheney did something illegal, I say go after him. I just don't want this to push aside the whole issue with Pelosi.

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It's such a stretch they lied about that too? Since we're not given any evidence to the contrary either way, and the CIA has already shown their dishonesty when dealing with oversight, I see no reason to take them at their word. Especially when another Senator Bob Graham, known for meticulous notes on what happens when, said he was given the wrong dates for when briefings occurred.

Senator Graham said:

"When this issue started to resurface I called the appropriate people in the agency and said I would like to know the dates from your records that briefings were held," Graham recalled. "And they contacted me and gave me four dates -- two in April '02 and two in September '02. Now, one of the things I do, and for which I have taken some flack, is keep a spiral notebook of what I do throughout the day. And so I went through my records and through a combination of my daily schedule, which I keep, and my notebooks, I confirmed and the CIA agreed that my notes were accurate; that three of those four dates there had been no briefing. There was only one day that I had been briefed, which was September the 27th of 2002."

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Hard to keep them at their word. However, I'm sure I'll still hear how the CIA is more reliable.

Krisken said:

Shakey said:

Krisken said:

I'd wait for an apology from those who made unsubstantiated assumptions about who was lying about whether congress members were properly informed, but for some reason I think I'd be wasting my time.

Click to expand...

This still has nothing to do with the Pelosi issue. They aren't talking about the torture program, apparently this was related to an assassination program going after Al Qaeda leaders.

It's unclear whether this was even illegal. Apparently if it is considered to be sensitive enough, and a leak is possible, they don't have to disclose it to congress. If Cheney did something illegal, I say go after him. I just don't want this to push aside the whole issue with Pelosi.

Click to expand...

It's such a stretch they lied about that too? Since we're not given any evidence to the contrary either way, and the CIA has already shown their dishonesty when dealing with oversight, I see no reason to take them at their word. Especially when another Senator Bob Graham, known for meticulous notes on what happens when, said he was given the wrong dates for when briefings occurred.

Senator Graham said:

"When this issue started to resurface I called the appropriate people in the agency and said I would like to know the dates from your records that briefings were held," Graham recalled. "And they contacted me and gave me four dates -- two in April '02 and two in September '02. Now, one of the things I do, and for which I have taken some flack, is keep a spiral notebook of what I do throughout the day. And so I went through my records and through a combination of my daily schedule, which I keep, and my notebooks, I confirmed and the CIA agreed that my notes were accurate; that three of those four dates there had been no briefing. There was only one day that I had been briefed, which was September the 27th of 2002."

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Hard to keep them at their word. However, I'm sure I'll still hear how the CIA is more reliable.

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I'm not saying they are more reliable, just saying these are two different issues. The CIA wasn't lying when they said it wasn't their policy to withhold information. This was a program that Cheney told them not to tell congress about. It wasn't their decision. Pelosi also has a lot more to gain by saying she was never told about torture. What does the CIA gain by saying she was told? They aren't going to be prosecuted for anything either way. That is the only reason I hesitate to take her side.

Shakey said:

Hard to keep them at their word. However, I'm sure I'll still hear how the CIA is more reliable.

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I'm not saying they are more reliable, just saying these are two different issues. The CIA wasn't lying when they said it wasn't their policy to withhold information. This was a program that Cheney told them not to tell congress about. It wasn't their decision. Pelosi also has a lot more to gain by saying she was never told about torture. What does the CIA gain by saying she was told? They aren't going to be prosecuted for anything either way. That is the only reason I hesitate to take her side.[/quote]
That I absolutely understand. I'm not sure I'm "on her side". I do think that the CIA gains something by saying she and other members of the committee were informed about the extent of the torture program, especially since the CIA has such strong ties to Cheney.
I just hope this isn't another situation where we don't find out what happened for another 50 years, when knowing really doesn't help anyone anymore.

CIA has strong ties to every president. Cheney is just so smug about everything we all want him to fall. I doubt we'll get any real closure on it though. We are only going to get what the CIA and Congress chooses to release and nothing more. I have a feeling Cheney is really going to go on the offensive about this though. He is going to feel like he did the right thing by not disclosing this program. It's only been a month since congress was briefed on it and it's already been leaked. It was secret for 6 or 7 years prior to this.

yes, it's weird how those guys just decided to leak an illegal program the CIA told them about... and even shut down before telling them.

Why is this happened to MKULTRA or other programs where they drugged random people without telling them then what?!