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Cosplay Subforum Rules
#1
Dave
Dave
This is just a quick note to let everyone know that this subforum is going to be handled a bit differently than other subforums. First, it's going to be moderated with a metaphorical Iron Fist, meaning that posts must stay on topic and germane to the discussion at hand. Decisions as to what is and is not allowed is totally up to the mods in general and FigmentPez specifically.
There are reasons for this.
Please also note that FigmentPez does NOT have the ability to give infractions or ban anyone, but he can and will use his delete or edit powers.
I apologize for not making this all clear sooner.
There are reasons for this.
- We have had instances where cosplayers have felt uncomfortable with the level of joking over the way they look. (i.e. creepers)
- Cosplayers - especially female ones - get hit on a lot at cons. We want this place to be a celebration of cosplay and cosplayers, not a place to comment on the cleavage of the cosplayers.
Please also note that FigmentPez does NOT have the ability to give infractions or ban anyone, but he can and will use his delete or edit powers.
I apologize for not making this all clear sooner.
#2
Bones
Bones
thank you dave, thats all I wanted to know when all this stuff started going down.
#3
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
hahaha. But good on eliminating creepiness.
#4
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Thanks, Dave.
#5
bhamv3
bhamv3
I agree with the need for such ground rules.
Also, people have been creeping without me? Damn, my "Official Forum Pervert" cred is falling lower and lower.
Also, people have been creeping without me? Damn, my "Official Forum Pervert" cred is falling lower and lower.
#6
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
You said it, Chibi.I agree with the need for such ground rules.
Also, people have been creeping without me? Damn, my "Official Forum Pervert" cred is falling lower and lower.
#7
PatrThom
PatrThom
Kotaku has a relevant article you might want to peruse, FP. Not posting it in the cosplay thread proper since it doesn't directly relate to cosplay, but you might want to go through it as source material while you codify your rules.
http://kotaku.com/5868595/nerds-and-male-privilege
--Patrick
http://kotaku.com/5868595/nerds-and-male-privilege
--Patrick
#8
figmentPez
figmentPez
I read that article before it was reposted on Kotaku (it's the same article that I quoted cosplayer Meagan Marie responding to). I found it to be a trite piece of male/nerd-bashing bullshit. (But what else do I expect from a blog that also has such riveting articles as "Don't Date Geek Girls" and "Why Women Cheat (and How to Stop It)".) It brings up issues that need to be discussed, but does so in a way that is biased and seeks to be controversial, rather than actually trying to start any reasoned discourse on the issue. I find it rather fitting that Kotaku, known for it's exploitation of the sexy nerd girl image, is posting such an article. It's a piece written solely to get page views, and that's exactly what it's done, nothing more.Kotaku has a relevant article you might want to peruse, FP. Not posting it in the cosplay thread proper since it doesn't directly relate to cosplay, but you might want to go through it as source material while you codify your rules.
http://kotaku.com/5868595/nerds-and-male-privilege
--Patrick
#9
PatrThom
PatrThom
I rely on you, then, to pull out the relevant bits and discard the rest. I suppose it will be like seeding a pomegranate.
--Patrick
--Patrick
#10
Bowielee
Being a gay gamer, I'm VASTLY under-represented in my chosen source material, even less than strong female characters. There is most definately a "good old boys" club in gaming/geek culture. Straight white men just tend not to see it, because they really don't have to.
I still remember when this iteration of the board was in it's infancy and I had to fight to have fag added to the list of things that weren't acceptable, with the very predictable "it's only words" response. (FYI, still fucking hate the Do it faggot meme).
And yes, I know I'll get a ton of flack for this post.
Bowielee
I actually found the article to be extremely spot on.I read that article before it was reposted on Kotaku (it's the same article that I quoted cosplayer Meagan Marie responding to). I found it to be a trite piece of male/nerd-bashing bullshit. (But what else do I expect from a blog that also has such riveting articles as "Don't Date Geek Girls" and "Why Women Cheat (and How to Stop It)".) It brings up issues that need to be discussed, but does so in a way that is biased and seeks to be controversial, rather than actually trying to start any reasoned discourse on the issue. I find it rather fitting that Kotaku, known for it's exploitation of the sexy nerd girl image, is posting such an article. It's a piece written solely to get page views, and that's exactly what it's done, nothing more.
Being a gay gamer, I'm VASTLY under-represented in my chosen source material, even less than strong female characters. There is most definately a "good old boys" club in gaming/geek culture. Straight white men just tend not to see it, because they really don't have to.
I still remember when this iteration of the board was in it's infancy and I had to fight to have fag added to the list of things that weren't acceptable, with the very predictable "it's only words" response. (FYI, still fucking hate the Do it faggot meme).
And yes, I know I'll get a ton of flack for this post.
#11
Espy
Espy
As a "straight white male" who spends some time online and has spent inordinate amounts of time in places like comic and gaming shops I found quite a bit of that article to be seriously thought provoking and reasonably accurate about quite a bit of male nerd culture. Doesn't mean it's 100% right but it certainly hits the nail on the head in a few spots.
#12
Dave
Dave
I thought the article was pretty good and the response by Shinta also to be spot on. My wife won't go into my local gaming/comic shop. She calls it "The Boobie Store". First time she went in there the owner was unpacking 12" tall figures of "Women of Marvel" or some such. Of the figurines we saw there was about 1 total outfit of clothes between them. And this is a store where women are very welcome and game frequently. They have a very, very low tolerance for people harassing others. I saw a long-time regular get kicked out because he yelled, "Hey, baby!" at a girl who came in with her little brother.
So while I think he article isn't 100% I think it does raise some excellent points.
So while I think he article isn't 100% I think it does raise some excellent points.
#13
figmentPez
First, I think the example of Batman: Arkham City is poorly laid out. First-off, it ignores the fact that women villains using seduction has been a staple of ALL media since the Greek myths and before. You'll find such characters in novels, plays, movies, myths, jokes, television, etc., etc. Knowing this, the article should have focused on the change of Harley Quinn from a character whose sexuality is incidental and not core to the character, to one who has been tarted up for the game (and the new reboot). Acknowledging that sexual female characters are a staple of media, but showing that nerd hobbies over-emphasize that one character type (while ignoring other female archetypes) is the problem. Complaining that Poison Ivy is being a sexual character is like complaining that Aphrodite/Venus is wearing too little.
Next, want to complain about how few female characters are good examples? Then how about actually naming some that are?! Being negative does not help the issue if you can't at least show that you're aware that positive examples exist and show what should be aimed for. No mention of Alyx Vance from HL2, Zoey & Rochelle from L4D/L4D2, FemShep from Mass Effect, Elaine Marley or Morgan LeFlay from ToMI, etc., etc. Yes, there is a problem, but constructive crticism is what's needed, not simply male/nerd-bashing.
Thirdly, if you want me to take you seriously about women being treated differently because they're women, stop stereotyping me just because I'm a straight male while pretending that such stereotyping doesn't exist. Yeah, I know the stereotyping I get is just a minor annoyance compared to the serious problems faced by women and homosexuals, but it still exists. If I do anything nice for a girl, I get accused of hitting on her. If stand up and say that women should be treated with respect, I get accused of "white knighting"; trying to gain favor with women by doing so. If I should suggest that a woman's motivations cannot be judged by her dress, I get laughed at as if I can't possibly comprehend because I post pictures of women in beautiful costumes, and therefore must be objectifying them myself. If you want guys to change, to be better about the way they treat women, stop beating down the ones who are honestly trying.
I'm not making this change in how I publicly respond to the sexual objectification of cosplayers because I want to impress a girl. To be honest there is only one girl I'm interested in right now, and as far as I know she's bothered by my maintaining this thread at all, and being more polite to the girls featured here isn't going to make her feel any better about it. I don't care what the cosplayers think of me specifically. Not to mention I've already got a pretty good reputation with them just for making the thread and the comments I make about their photos. I've never heard it suggested that they view me any differently because of what other people say in my thread. I'm making the change to appease my own conscience, and out of some misguided idea that if enough people stand up in a similar manner eventually geek/nerd males will stop being viewed as perverts whose hobbies make them think of nothing but sex and violence.
Back to the article, though, I specifically dislike how cosplayers are singled out as being put on pillars and objectified because people enjoy the hard work they've done. There is objectification done, absolutely. Meagan Marie's comments on this article definitely affirm that she's treated like an image more often than a person. However, I think the article really failed in stereotyping all cosplay as sexual, and I think that does a great disservice to the many cosplayers that definitely do not cosplay with a desire to be sexually objectified, and still receive great praise for their work. This type of horrible stereotyping is also prevalent in the "Don't Date Geek Girls" article from the same source. It shows not only a lack of respect for women, but also a horrible understanding of nerd culture. The author treats nerds/geeks (especially nerd/geek males) as some homogenous culture who all share the exact same interests.
Well, I've rambled enough, and spent way more time and energy on this than I can afford to, but it's a very important issue to me and I want to voice my opinion, even though it feels like I'm dismissed without consideration.
figmentPez
Yes, the discussion points are important, and need to be talked about, but is that the proper way to say it? It may make give those already feeling persecuted some warm-and-fuzzy feelings inside because someone gets them and is speaking to their issues, but is it really conveying the issues to those who need to swayed on the issue? Don't get me wrong, I read the article and see a lot of things that I want to be said, but they're definitely not said in a way that's productive.So while I think he article isn't 100% I think it does raise some excellent points.
First, I think the example of Batman: Arkham City is poorly laid out. First-off, it ignores the fact that women villains using seduction has been a staple of ALL media since the Greek myths and before. You'll find such characters in novels, plays, movies, myths, jokes, television, etc., etc. Knowing this, the article should have focused on the change of Harley Quinn from a character whose sexuality is incidental and not core to the character, to one who has been tarted up for the game (and the new reboot). Acknowledging that sexual female characters are a staple of media, but showing that nerd hobbies over-emphasize that one character type (while ignoring other female archetypes) is the problem. Complaining that Poison Ivy is being a sexual character is like complaining that Aphrodite/Venus is wearing too little.
Next, want to complain about how few female characters are good examples? Then how about actually naming some that are?! Being negative does not help the issue if you can't at least show that you're aware that positive examples exist and show what should be aimed for. No mention of Alyx Vance from HL2, Zoey & Rochelle from L4D/L4D2, FemShep from Mass Effect, Elaine Marley or Morgan LeFlay from ToMI, etc., etc. Yes, there is a problem, but constructive crticism is what's needed, not simply male/nerd-bashing.
Thirdly, if you want me to take you seriously about women being treated differently because they're women, stop stereotyping me just because I'm a straight male while pretending that such stereotyping doesn't exist. Yeah, I know the stereotyping I get is just a minor annoyance compared to the serious problems faced by women and homosexuals, but it still exists. If I do anything nice for a girl, I get accused of hitting on her. If stand up and say that women should be treated with respect, I get accused of "white knighting"; trying to gain favor with women by doing so. If I should suggest that a woman's motivations cannot be judged by her dress, I get laughed at as if I can't possibly comprehend because I post pictures of women in beautiful costumes, and therefore must be objectifying them myself. If you want guys to change, to be better about the way they treat women, stop beating down the ones who are honestly trying.
I'm not making this change in how I publicly respond to the sexual objectification of cosplayers because I want to impress a girl. To be honest there is only one girl I'm interested in right now, and as far as I know she's bothered by my maintaining this thread at all, and being more polite to the girls featured here isn't going to make her feel any better about it. I don't care what the cosplayers think of me specifically. Not to mention I've already got a pretty good reputation with them just for making the thread and the comments I make about their photos. I've never heard it suggested that they view me any differently because of what other people say in my thread. I'm making the change to appease my own conscience, and out of some misguided idea that if enough people stand up in a similar manner eventually geek/nerd males will stop being viewed as perverts whose hobbies make them think of nothing but sex and violence.
Back to the article, though, I specifically dislike how cosplayers are singled out as being put on pillars and objectified because people enjoy the hard work they've done. There is objectification done, absolutely. Meagan Marie's comments on this article definitely affirm that she's treated like an image more often than a person. However, I think the article really failed in stereotyping all cosplay as sexual, and I think that does a great disservice to the many cosplayers that definitely do not cosplay with a desire to be sexually objectified, and still receive great praise for their work. This type of horrible stereotyping is also prevalent in the "Don't Date Geek Girls" article from the same source. It shows not only a lack of respect for women, but also a horrible understanding of nerd culture. The author treats nerds/geeks (especially nerd/geek males) as some homogenous culture who all share the exact same interests.
Well, I've rambled enough, and spent way more time and energy on this than I can afford to, but it's a very important issue to me and I want to voice my opinion, even though it feels like I'm dismissed without consideration.
#14
Bones
Bones
I am in a non-confrontational way curious to know why you feel like we are dismissive of you. more so this attitude seems, to me, pervade your posts as of late. I understand there are assholes on this board, but this hardly signifies the group opinion of you. is everything ok in the land of pez?even though it feels like I'm dismissed without consideration.
#15
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
I agree with Bones. You say you've stewing over the new rules for the cosplay section for a while now, but to the rest of us, it seemed to come out of nowhere with an extra dose of hostility attached to it.
You've posted yourself that your health has taken a substantial downturn recently. I would have to wonder if this is really the time to take on revamping the section on your own. At the very least, you should take on an assistant/intern/flunky/lackey until you're feeling better. I rule myself out because of distinct lack of qualifications regarding the subject matter.
You've posted yourself that your health has taken a substantial downturn recently. I would have to wonder if this is really the time to take on revamping the section on your own. At the very least, you should take on an assistant/intern/flunky/lackey until you're feeling better. I rule myself out because of distinct lack of qualifications regarding the subject matter.
#16
Gusto
Gusto
Male Privilege in Nerd Culture should be it's own thread. 
#17
figmentPez
This probably isn't the best place for this, but if anyone is wondering why the cosplay thread has been so hit or miss in updating, especially lately, here goes:
For those that don't know, I've suffered from chronic health problems since I was 15. I've been in constant, and usually severe, pain for over half of my life. I finally got a diagnosis about a year-and-a-half ago, after more than a decade of being told nothing was wrong and that I was just depressed. I have a widespread fungal infection (lungs, GI tract, skin, etc.) that is now being treated, but it's a long road back to being healthy, if that's even still possible. I was fairly near death, held together by duct tape and providence.
In addition to my health problems, I still live with my parents and their lives has been in shake-up mode for a while. My dad just retired (epic win for him) but getting ready to retire had a rough final stretch. My mom and sister over-committed themselves by running the tea room at my church's annual arts & crafts festival. That left them tired and irritable for most of October and November, and they still haven't recovered, being further stressed by the holidays. They're also busy, and a little stressed, planning my youngest sister's wedding.
There are a lot of changes going on in my life. I'm having to re-learn a lot of old skills as I start taking on things I'd been too sick to do for years. More than that, the biggest pyschological stress I've been going through is the return of emotions and hints of optimism. When I was at my sickest, and I didn't fully realize this at the time, my emotions were deadened to the point where I didn't feel much more than fear/anger or mild happiness, except in the rarest of circumstances. In the past 6 months or so, I've started having real and strong emotions again, and obvioiusly I haven't always dealt with that very well.
For several years just prior to my diagnosis, I had given up on life. I had resigned myself to a slow death and was suicidal at many points. I had given up on having any dreams beyond a small life in front of my computer, and I wasn't even alive enough to feel sad about it. Some recent events have forced me to reexamine those discarded dreams, and while I can't talk about what has spurred this, it's led to no small amount of inner turmoil.
All the things I'd taken for granted growing up: going to college, getting a job, finding a girl, getting married, having kids, etc. All those I'd banished from my mind, arguably after they'd been ripped from my heart. Now I'm being confronted with the possibility that my life may have a future after all, and quite frankly that scares me enough to leave my legs shaking and my mouth dry. Afraid to even consider such thoughts, because I'm still so incredibly far from anything that can be called normal. Trying to ignore the possibilities only leaves me more upset, and actually facing the future often means exhuming harsh lessons from my past that I didn't learn at the time. It's all very complicated, confusing and more than a little overwhelming; especially during the holidays.
None of my personal issues have any definite end, or even relief, on the horizon. Just a long slog of slowly rebuilding my body and mind. At this pace any gain is going to be measured in inches, and I have no idea how much progress I can expect before there is no more that can be done to fix what was broken for so long. For now I'm still improving, though it's very slow with ups and downs along the way.
Again, the TL;DR is: I'm safe and provided for. Nothing is in imminent danger of getting worse, but better isn't moving swiftly at the moment either. There's a lot of stress, but hopefully I'm getting better at handling things, day by day.
Sorry to vent outside the rant thread, but this just felt right.
figmentPez
That is a complicated question, and I wish I had a simple answer to give. In short, I'm just in a very stressful situation, for a variety of reasons, that I'm having to learn to deal with. The TL;DR is: Things will almost certainly work out well in the long run, but it's a confusing pain (literally and figuratively) in the meantime.Is everything ok in the land of pez?
This probably isn't the best place for this, but if anyone is wondering why the cosplay thread has been so hit or miss in updating, especially lately, here goes:
For those that don't know, I've suffered from chronic health problems since I was 15. I've been in constant, and usually severe, pain for over half of my life. I finally got a diagnosis about a year-and-a-half ago, after more than a decade of being told nothing was wrong and that I was just depressed. I have a widespread fungal infection (lungs, GI tract, skin, etc.) that is now being treated, but it's a long road back to being healthy, if that's even still possible. I was fairly near death, held together by duct tape and providence.
In addition to my health problems, I still live with my parents and their lives has been in shake-up mode for a while. My dad just retired (epic win for him) but getting ready to retire had a rough final stretch. My mom and sister over-committed themselves by running the tea room at my church's annual arts & crafts festival. That left them tired and irritable for most of October and November, and they still haven't recovered, being further stressed by the holidays. They're also busy, and a little stressed, planning my youngest sister's wedding.
There are a lot of changes going on in my life. I'm having to re-learn a lot of old skills as I start taking on things I'd been too sick to do for years. More than that, the biggest pyschological stress I've been going through is the return of emotions and hints of optimism. When I was at my sickest, and I didn't fully realize this at the time, my emotions were deadened to the point where I didn't feel much more than fear/anger or mild happiness, except in the rarest of circumstances. In the past 6 months or so, I've started having real and strong emotions again, and obvioiusly I haven't always dealt with that very well.
For several years just prior to my diagnosis, I had given up on life. I had resigned myself to a slow death and was suicidal at many points. I had given up on having any dreams beyond a small life in front of my computer, and I wasn't even alive enough to feel sad about it. Some recent events have forced me to reexamine those discarded dreams, and while I can't talk about what has spurred this, it's led to no small amount of inner turmoil.
All the things I'd taken for granted growing up: going to college, getting a job, finding a girl, getting married, having kids, etc. All those I'd banished from my mind, arguably after they'd been ripped from my heart. Now I'm being confronted with the possibility that my life may have a future after all, and quite frankly that scares me enough to leave my legs shaking and my mouth dry. Afraid to even consider such thoughts, because I'm still so incredibly far from anything that can be called normal. Trying to ignore the possibilities only leaves me more upset, and actually facing the future often means exhuming harsh lessons from my past that I didn't learn at the time. It's all very complicated, confusing and more than a little overwhelming; especially during the holidays.
None of my personal issues have any definite end, or even relief, on the horizon. Just a long slog of slowly rebuilding my body and mind. At this pace any gain is going to be measured in inches, and I have no idea how much progress I can expect before there is no more that can be done to fix what was broken for so long. For now I'm still improving, though it's very slow with ups and downs along the way.
Again, the TL;DR is: I'm safe and provided for. Nothing is in imminent danger of getting worse, but better isn't moving swiftly at the moment either. There's a lot of stress, but hopefully I'm getting better at handling things, day by day.
Sorry to vent outside the rant thread, but this just felt right.
#18
LittleKagsin
LittleKagsin
We love you Pez. =^^= *hug*
+ = *running around happily* I hope you feel better soon.
+ = *running around happily* I hope you feel better soon.
#19
Dave
Dave
I always wondered what was up but figured it was none of my business so I didn't pry.
You know we'll always be here and that you're always welcome no matter what.
You know we'll always be here and that you're always welcome no matter what.
#20
Bones
Bones
its not mine either, but I don't want somebody running around feeling like nobody gives a shit when obviously thats not how the majority feel about the man.
look I will apologize now, I am sorry that I pried. however pez was more than welcome to tell me it is none of my business.
look I will apologize now, I am sorry that I pried. however pez was more than welcome to tell me it is none of my business.
#21
Dave
No, no! I am not chastising you for asking and caring. I'm just saying it's never why I asked before. That's not a reflection on you at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
Dave
its not mine either, but I don't want somebody running around feeling like nobody gives a shit when obviously thats not how the majority feel about the man.
look I will apologize now, I am sorry that I pried. however he was more than welcome to tell me to get bent it is none of my business.
No, no! I am not chastising you for asking and caring. I'm just saying it's never why I asked before. That's not a reflection on you at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
#22
Bones
Bones
oh, sorry...I over reacted like a goofball. don't mind me, we will just blame it on lack of sleep due to final exams.
#23
bhamv3
bhamv3
Pez man, you're a good guy, and you're one of us. You're the cosplay guru and the game sales radar, but you're also far more than that. Keep us updated on your life, we might not be able to do much, but we care.
#24
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I imagine the response to that here wouldn't be that different than the "Men's Rights" reddit.Male Privilege in Nerd Culture should be it's own thread.
#25
Hailey Knight
Bones, you're a bad person.
Hailey Knight
I am.No, no! I am not chastising you for asking and caring. I'm just saying it's never why I asked before. That's not a reflection on you at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
Bones, you're a bad person.
#26
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
Pretend it is in English, or bonus to you for understanding Turkish. I couldn't find the English version of just this scene.All the things I'd taken for granted growing up: going to college, getting a job, finding a girl, getting married, having kids, etc. All those I'd banished from my mind, arguably after they'd been ripped from my heart. Now I'm being confronted with the possibility that my life may have a future after all, and quite frankly that scares me enough to leave my legs shaking and my mouth dry.
--Patrick
#27
figmentPez
figmentPez
I've never seen that movie ("V for Vendetta" I assume), thus:Pretend it is in English, or bonus to you for understanding Turkish. I couldn't find the English version of just this scene.
#28
PatrThom
PatrThom
Trust me, it is quite relevant. I may be able to arrange a ... private viewing, if you so desire.
If you have never seen the film, however, it may make more sense if you watch the entire scene (all 15 minutes of it):
(EDIT: If you have not seen the movie/read the novel, these scenes are quite the spoiler to the plot)
--Patrick
If you have never seen the film, however, it may make more sense if you watch the entire scene (all 15 minutes of it):
(EDIT: If you have not seen the movie/read the novel, these scenes are quite the spoiler to the plot)
--Patrick
#29
figmentPez
figmentPez
A cosplayer tweets:
"To the people who asked about my taken down videos: I start taking them down when 50% of comments just become crude for no reason.
"I don't understand why the appearance of girls is so focused on. I'm trying to share my excitement/love for an event, not be a model."
"To the people who asked about my taken down videos: I start taking them down when 50% of comments just become crude for no reason.
"I don't understand why the appearance of girls is so focused on. I'm trying to share my excitement/love for an event, not be a model."
#30
Dave
Dave
Did they tweet this to you?
#31
Bones
Bones
honestly, because by definition the majority of heterosexual men like good looking girls, ipso facto with addition of the internet fuckwad theory, you get the "pigs" that every cos-player loathes. Mike Krahulik suggests that, given both anonymity and an audience, an otherwise regular person can become a "total fuckwad," i.e., a very disagreeable person. It's basic anonymity coupled with a mob mentality, I argue for a self-perpetuating internet nuclear chain reaction. what I am saying is the first guy to say something sexist starts the chain reaction. This is how I personally see it at least.
#32
figmentPez
figmentPez
No, just a tweet in general about her Youtube videos.Did they tweet this to you?
#33
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
Is it intentional that I can't edit my posts in this subforum?
#34
Dave
Dave
Posts are only able to be edited for 10 minutes. That's board-wide.
#35
figmentPez
figmentPez
I'm adding a rule.
- Complaining in the cosplay sub-forum about the rules or moderation is banned outside of this thread. If you don't like the rules, talk about it here or shut up and leave. Being passive-agressive by whining "I can't post what I really want to say" is bullshit and I'm not going to take it.
- Complaining in the cosplay sub-forum about the rules or moderation is banned outside of this thread. If you don't like the rules, talk about it here or shut up and leave. Being passive-agressive by whining "I can't post what I really want to say" is bullshit and I'm not going to take it.
#36
Tress
Tress
You're a nice guy, but when it comes to cosplayers I think you're overprotective and overzealous in the application of your mod authority. It comes off as a big "Because I said so!" I think your eagerness to be the brave protector of female cosplayers is also a bit sexist. You seem to put female cosplayers on a pedestal. It feels as though acknowledging the fact that some women are attractive is a deal breaker to you.
I think if people actually act as creeps to cosplayers, you have every right to come down hard on them. I just think you should wait until someone actually breaks the rules or a cosplayer complains about their treatment.
I think if people actually act as creeps to cosplayers, you have every right to come down hard on them. I just think you should wait until someone actually breaks the rules or a cosplayer complains about their treatment.
#37
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Much as I agree with your sentiment and consider Fig's attitude to be a bit offensive in its own way, it's been gone through in more threads than just this one and it's not going to change. He said rule discussion should go on in this thread, but it's pretty much just "keep your complaints here where I don't have to look at them", because he's not going to change his approach. His view is that this is how he's doing it and anyone who doesn't like it can go to hell. Ser Playhouse Pez the Valiant will be on watch to defend a cosplayer's choice of cos, and how s/he plays it, whether asked for or not.You're a nice guy, but when it comes to cosplayers I think you're overprotective and overzealous in the application of your mod authority. It comes off as a big "Because I said so!" I think your eagerness to be the brave protector of female cosplayers is also a bit sexist. You seem to put female cosplayers on a pedestal. It feels as though acknowledging the fact that some women are attractive is a deal breaker to you.
I think if people actually act as creeps to cosplayers, you have every right to come down hard on them. I just think you should wait until someone actually breaks the rules or a cosplayer complains about their treatment.
#38
Tress
Tress
... and that's his prerogative, I suppose. I just felt it needed to be said in no unclear terms.Much as I agree with your sentiment and consider Fig's attitude to be a bit offensive in its own way, it's been gone through in more threads than just this one and it's not going to change. He said rule discussion should go on in this thread, but it's pretty much just "keep your complaints here where I don't have to look at them", because he's not going to change his approach. His view is that this is how he's doing it and anyone who doesn't like it can go to hell. Ser Playhouse Pez the Valiant will be on watch to defend a cosplayer's choice of cos, and how s/he plays it, whether asked for or not.
#39
Bones
Bones
what just happened, that makes you say that now of all times? its been what I thought was pretty quiet as of late....I'm adding a rule.
- Complaining in the cosplay sub-forum about the rules or moderation is banned outside of this thread. If you don't like the rules, talk about it here or shut up and leave. Being passive-agressive by whining "I can't post what I really want to say" is bullshit and I'm not going to take it.
#40
Tress
Tress
Kags talked about doing a Bayonetta cosplay but didn't have the guns for it. Jay commented on how guns weren't the thing that people remember about the character. Pez took that as him creeping on Kags and vowed to stop it, as he believes Jay doesn't it all the time in other threads. Null questioned whether or not that should count as creepy, and Chad Sexington questioned Pez's response altogether. Pez responded in the thread, then came here and added the new rule.what just happened, that makes you say that now of all times? its been what I thought was pretty quiet as of late....
#41
Hailey Knight
In this case, Jay made a comment in Kagsin's thread implying that people probably pay more attention to Bayonetta's sexualized physique than her weapons.
Bayonetta was quite offended.
Hailey Knight
I find that hilarious since that was pretty much my reaction when the subforum was made. I think it was a Jay comment then that set off the casks of offended gunpowder in his head. At least that comment I could see being an issue, even though the reaction quickly became an overreaction.what just happened, that makes you say that now of all times? its been what I thought was pretty quiet as of late....
In this case, Jay made a comment in Kagsin's thread implying that people probably pay more attention to Bayonetta's sexualized physique than her weapons.
Bayonetta was quite offended.
#42
figmentPez
figmentPez
Do you guys seriously think my agenda is "protecting cosplayers", because that's not the case. As I've said before, this is is about the reputation of geek guys; avoiding hurt feelings for cosplaying girls is of secondary importance. I'm really sick of being stereotyped as a drooling lech simply because I identify myself as a geek guy, and I'm tired of hearing cosplayers complain that no one ever objects to them being sexually objectified. I want geek guys to have a better reputation, so I'm not going to sit and be part of the silent portion of geek guys who don't like it any more than the geek girls do. I'm not sorry I come across as heavy-handed, because you only think I'm over-reacting because I'm reacting at all; speaking out on this issue is so out of the norm it seems unreasonable to do so at all.
I gave Jay a nudge because he has a history of creeping on Kags and other cosplayers. He's openly said that he'd do it again, and only backed down in the cosplay thread when I got mod powers. I preemptively reminded him that this sub-forum has different rules, in case he'd forgotten. Which obviously some people had or they wouldn't have been shocked that I said so. I don't intend to allow anyone to test my patience and see how much they can get away with. If someone besides Jay had made the same comment, I wouldn't have said a thing. However, since it was Jay I decided to head things off at the pass.
There are a lot of cosplayers who don't like sexualized comments to be made about them. They talk about this on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook and elsewhere, for anyone to see if you care to follow them. Some of the cosplayers who also vlog on Youtube routinely take down old videos when they start to attract only sexual comments. They don't want to hear it, and if they can't control the comments, they shut it out entirely. I don't want my name attached to a place where only the thick-skinned cosplayers feel welcome. I don't want my name attached to a thread full of the objectification of women, although I realize that's been the case for a while, and I'm mad at myself for not doing anything sooner.
The objectification of women (or men) is unacceptable. A lot of abusive talk has gone on in these threads, and I just let it slide because I didn't think I could do anything about it, and I knew trying would cause drama. Well, I don't care anymore that I won't be able to avoid drama, and I'm going to try even if I fail spectacularly and ruin my reputation doing so. I started the cosplay thread because I was bored and enjoyed sharing the photos I found. The more I got to know cosplayers, and the more lewd comments were made, the less I enjoyed sharing. I don't enjoy putting my foot down very much at all, but it's something I feel I must do to adhere to my own moral and ethical standards.
Also, allegations of being sexist? NO. If and when I actually have a different standard for men than I do for women, then you can accuse me of sexism. It just happens that it's far rarer for male cosplayers to be treated like pieces of meat than it is for women cosplayers to be treated that way. Should I fail to respond when a lewd post is made about a male cosplayer, then you can call me out for sexism. Until then it's only your prejudice saying that I only care about the treatment of female cosplayers. If you think I'm going to bow down to pressure because you've called me names? I won't.
I gave Jay a nudge because he has a history of creeping on Kags and other cosplayers. He's openly said that he'd do it again, and only backed down in the cosplay thread when I got mod powers. I preemptively reminded him that this sub-forum has different rules, in case he'd forgotten. Which obviously some people had or they wouldn't have been shocked that I said so. I don't intend to allow anyone to test my patience and see how much they can get away with. If someone besides Jay had made the same comment, I wouldn't have said a thing. However, since it was Jay I decided to head things off at the pass.
There are a lot of cosplayers who don't like sexualized comments to be made about them. They talk about this on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook and elsewhere, for anyone to see if you care to follow them. Some of the cosplayers who also vlog on Youtube routinely take down old videos when they start to attract only sexual comments. They don't want to hear it, and if they can't control the comments, they shut it out entirely. I don't want my name attached to a place where only the thick-skinned cosplayers feel welcome. I don't want my name attached to a thread full of the objectification of women, although I realize that's been the case for a while, and I'm mad at myself for not doing anything sooner.
The objectification of women (or men) is unacceptable. A lot of abusive talk has gone on in these threads, and I just let it slide because I didn't think I could do anything about it, and I knew trying would cause drama. Well, I don't care anymore that I won't be able to avoid drama, and I'm going to try even if I fail spectacularly and ruin my reputation doing so. I started the cosplay thread because I was bored and enjoyed sharing the photos I found. The more I got to know cosplayers, and the more lewd comments were made, the less I enjoyed sharing. I don't enjoy putting my foot down very much at all, but it's something I feel I must do to adhere to my own moral and ethical standards.
Also, allegations of being sexist? NO. If and when I actually have a different standard for men than I do for women, then you can accuse me of sexism. It just happens that it's far rarer for male cosplayers to be treated like pieces of meat than it is for women cosplayers to be treated that way. Should I fail to respond when a lewd post is made about a male cosplayer, then you can call me out for sexism. Until then it's only your prejudice saying that I only care about the treatment of female cosplayers. If you think I'm going to bow down to pressure because you've called me names? I won't.
#43
figmentPez
figmentPez
So, just what do you find funny about that post, Quotemander? I'm curious.
#44
Chad Sexington
Chad Sexington
Pez, I feel like your position comes from a good place, but is flawed.
As a fellow geek and a fellow guy, I really have to say, I don't feel stereotyped as a lech. I sometimes think your sensitivity to this issue is based off a stereotype you perversely cast on geekdom. Not to say you think geeks are creepy stalking types, but that you stereotype other people as stereotyping us this way. If that roundaboutness makes sense. Sure, those jokes abound, and maybe everyone knows someone who fits that. But it isn't pervasive.Do you guys seriously think my agenda is "protecting cosplayers", because that's not the case. As I've said before, this is is about the reputation of geek guys; avoiding hurt feelings for cosplaying girls is of secondary importance. I'm really sick of being stereotyped as a drooling lech simply because I identify myself as a geek guy
I don't really get this. Speaking out against women being objectified isn't unreasonable. No one here has ever said it is. Again, as a geek guy who is also opposed to women being treated like objects, I don't think I'm silent on the issue.I'm tired of hearing cosplayers complain that no one ever objects to them being sexually objectified. I want geek guys to have a better reputation, so I'm not going to sit and be part of the silent portion of geek guys who don't like it any more than the geek girls do. I'm not sorry I come across as heavy-handed, because you only think I'm over-reacting because I'm reacting at all; speaking out on this issue is so out of the norm it seems unreasonable to do so at all.
I hate this whole thing because it sounds like you dislike Jay specifically and specifically have it out for him, which is unfair. While past behaviour may indicate a person's future actions, this isn't the kind of thing where you need to be constantly warding him off.I gave Jay a nudge because he has a history of creeping on Kags and other cosplayers. He's openly said that he'd do it again, and only backed down in the cosplay thread when I got mod powers. I preemptively reminded him that this sub-forum has different rules, in case he'd forgotten. Which obviously some people had or they wouldn't have been shocked that I said so. I don't intend to allow anyone to test my patience and see how much they can get away with. If someone besides Jay had made the same comment, I wouldn't have said a thing. However, since it was Jay I decided to head things off at the pass.
I have no idea bout the accuracy of the claim that the thread in question is 'full of the objectification of women,' but again, I feel that's the sort of thing commonly frowned on, and your defensiveness in such a circumstance would be appropriate.There are a lot of cosplayers who don't like sexualized comments to be made about them. They talk about this on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook and elsewhere, for anyone to see if you care to follow them. Some of the cosplayers who also vlog on Youtube routinely take down old videos when they start to attract only sexual comments. They don't want to hear it, and if they can't control the comments, they shut it out entirely. I don't want my name attached to a place where only the thick-skinned cosplayers feel welcome. I don't want my name attached to a thread full of the objectification of women, although I realize that's been the case for a while, and I'm mad at myself for not doing anything sooner.
Has anyone called you sexist or other names? We just questioned whether or not you were being too quick on the defense for perceived sleights. Curiously, saying we're accusing you of sexism or calling you names when we didn't seems.... overdefensive.Also, allegations of being sexist? NO. If and when I actually have a different standard for men than I do for women, then you can accuse me of sexism. It just happens that it's far rarer for male cosplayers to be treated like pieces of meat than it is for women cosplayers to be treated that way. Should I fail to respond when a lewd post is made about a male cosplayer, then you can call me out for sexism. Until then it's only your prejudice saying that I only care about the treatment of female cosplayers. If you think I'm going to bow down to pressure because you've called me names? I won't.
#45
Tress
Tress
I disagree with the premise that you need to preemptively come down on people because somewhere, on a completely different part of the internet, people have been rude to cosplayers. I think your rules don't allow any acknowledgment of some characters being sexualized from the start, such as Bayonetta. I don't believe for one minute your treatment of female cosplayers is the exact same way you would interact with male ones.
And I'm sorry you obviously took personal offense to what I said. But I won't apologize for speaking my mind in this case. If you don't like it, you may as well ban me now. I have a right to speak my mind about how this forum is handled. Get over yourself.
And I'm sorry you obviously took personal offense to what I said. But I won't apologize for speaking my mind in this case. If you don't like it, you may as well ban me now. I have a right to speak my mind about how this forum is handled. Get over yourself.
#46
figmentPez
figmentPez
I think your eagerness to be the brave protector of female cosplayers is also a bit sexist.
#47
figmentPez
figmentPez
I didn't come down on anyone. I reminded Jay of the rules, that's all.I disagree with the premise that you need to preemptively come down on people.
#48
Tress
I guess my issue is not the rules, but your application of the rules. I feel your definition of abuse is too broad, and it has a chilling effect.
Tress
When you immediately follow Jay's post with "no creeping on the cosplayers" that's you coming down on him. That's you projecting yourself as a moderator who will do something negative to Jay if he continues to post something like that. And in my opinion it was just because he pointed out how sexualized the character of Bayonetta was, rather than say something inappropriate to Kags.I didn't come down on anyone. I reminded Jay of the rules, that's all.
I guess my issue is not the rules, but your application of the rules. I feel your definition of abuse is too broad, and it has a chilling effect.
#49
tegid
tegid
If I may intervene: Pez, maybe you were doing something innocent and purely preemptive, but as you can see it came across as oversensitive and agressive. Please realize that your actual intentions are relevant and it's important that we all understand them, but you also need to find better ways to enforce the rules or do whatever you feel you need to do or you willkeep absurdly spending time with confrontations such as this one. For instance, if this ever happens again, maybe a PM remainder would be better, or just making it clear that you are not accusing of rulebreaking, or even waiting until the actual rulebreaking happens and then using your mod powers to edit the post or whatever.
#50
Null
Null
Actually, I asked if anyone had been creepy not because I didn't consider Jay's post to be creepy, but because I usually don't see Jay's posts. Upon looking at his comment... it's not that creepy. I'd have to say that Bayonetta's catsuit and hairdo are more instantly recognizable than her armament, and even if that's not what he meant, let's face it, Bayonetta is a very fanservice filled game. Does that make it okay to creep on the cosplayer? No. Does it make it okay to point out that it the character is considered a sex symbol? I'd have to say yes.
#51
PatrThom
PatrThom
I like to think anyone who goes to a convention dressed as Bayonetta would know what she's getting herself into. It's one thing to make inappropriately sexual comments about someone dressed as, say, Daphne, or Yorda, or even Poison Ivy. To me, making "inappropriate" comments about a Bayonetta cosplay would only serve to validate the degree of authenticity of the costly cosplay. Making comments about the woman inside the costume should still be off-limits, though.
I would hope the majority of adults would be able to see the distinction, but of course I know that is not always the case.
--Patrick
(EDIT: Corrected incorrectly corrected autocorrect)
I would hope the majority of adults would be able to see the distinction, but of course I know that is not always the case.
--Patrick
(EDIT: Corrected incorrectly corrected autocorrect)
#52
figmentPez
figmentPez
The problem with that is where do you draw the line on characters? Why is Poison Ivy, a character known for using her sexuality to seduce and manipulate men, different from Bayonetta? How do you codify that to make it not seem arbitrary when moderating? (EDIT: Furthermore, how do you differentiate between a comment directed at the character and a comment directed at the cosplayer? A lot of cosplayers feel like they are the character they're cosplaying, and are going to feel like any harassment aimed at the costume is actually aimed at them.)
I know I've been overreacting and acting like a jackass, but I'm not sure what I'm going to do about that because several of the objections miss the point entirely. I've already covered sexism, bu there's also:
"Just let the cosplayers object if they feel they've been mistreated." If that were the case then any moderation that happened would tell everyone that the cosplayer "tattled" and many people feel uncomfortable having to do that. I don't want cosplayers to feel like they have to be the one speaking up when something is wrong. On another forum I visited, I can't count the number of times I got PMs telling me "that person was making me feel so uncomfortable, but I didn't want to be the one to say something because everyone else was just going with it." There is a silent majority who have a hard time standing up and saying something because they're afraid of the retaliation.
Which leads back to "Just do all the moderation privately". Admittedly I should have PMed Jay with a warning, and waited until there was an actual violation to say something publicly, bu there's no way that leaving all moderation private solves the basic problem of the public impression that no one objects to cat-calls directed at cosplayers. The silent majority wants to know that someone is objecting to the bad behavior they see; that they're not alone and they don't have to single themselves out by speaking up.
I know I've been overreacting and acting like a jackass, but I'm not sure what I'm going to do about that because several of the objections miss the point entirely. I've already covered sexism, bu there's also:
"Just let the cosplayers object if they feel they've been mistreated." If that were the case then any moderation that happened would tell everyone that the cosplayer "tattled" and many people feel uncomfortable having to do that. I don't want cosplayers to feel like they have to be the one speaking up when something is wrong. On another forum I visited, I can't count the number of times I got PMs telling me "that person was making me feel so uncomfortable, but I didn't want to be the one to say something because everyone else was just going with it." There is a silent majority who have a hard time standing up and saying something because they're afraid of the retaliation.
Which leads back to "Just do all the moderation privately". Admittedly I should have PMed Jay with a warning, and waited until there was an actual violation to say something publicly, bu there's no way that leaving all moderation private solves the basic problem of the public impression that no one objects to cat-calls directed at cosplayers. The silent majority wants to know that someone is objecting to the bad behavior they see; that they're not alone and they don't have to single themselves out by speaking up.