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Its an interesting read. Got a handful of screenshots and some gameplay descriptions. From everything I have read this game is sounding more and more like a kind of Oblivion style MMO.

Read for yourself

And yes, I realize this is like my 5th darkfall thread. There will be more. I think this game could either be one of the best things to happen to MMOs in a long time or could be one of the biggest failures of MMOs in a long time (I think most are betting on this one). So, I have been and will be religiously following any beta reports and interviews up until the Jan 22 release date

Fucking, sweet.

I can't wait to try this one, no more of this carebear bullshit of most modern day MMO's. Kill or be killed. Or as UO and SB both like to call it

Play to crush.

Not my cup of tea, so I have never been very excited about it. Even though I know they might have some trouble breaking in due to the highly niche audience they are going after, I do wish them success.

So, is it fun? I enjoy it, especially because the ability to fully loot each other makes it much more personal.
When I’d just started playing I fought a guy in a field of tall wheat, where I’d noticed how he’d just crouched to ambush me (it was tall enough to cover him when he crouched). At one point he ran off to recover, so I went looking for him in and out of some huts expecting him to jump me at any time… I couldn’t hit tab to see if I could acquire his target because there’s no such thing, I couldn’t mouselook to see if he was sneaking behind me while I looked into the houses, so it felt like a game of cat and mouse - where you don’t know who’s the mouse until the end, I guess… and I realised that for the first time in many years my heart was actually beating faster while pvping in an MMO. I wanted to kill that guy dead! I wanted his stuff! I was inordinately pleased when he died, even if a river in which he fell gave me a helping hand (my PVP stories are a bit lame, sorry).

Click to expand...

YES!

*edit* and this reviewer is a chick too..by the gods..we need more female gamers into mmo's, especially hardcore pvp mmos that's so frakkin awesome

This game is going to fail.
Because it's based on pvp.
Once the experts, campers, and dicks move in... that's it.
No more fun. No more enjoying yourself.
Hope you didn't like your stuff because you won't have it for long. That's essentially what you should expect from a game that has no limits to what can be taken from a person you kill. You could be on your way to a raid, and bam, hit by a hunting party of 10 griefers.
Soon you'll be back to WoW.

Arg - as if I don't hear enough "Darkfall Darkfall Darkfall!" from my real-life friend. I'M LEAVING!

*storms out*

Shawnacy said:

This game is going to fail.
Because it's based on pvp.
Once the experts, campers, and dicks move in... that's it.
No more fun. No more enjoying yourself.
Hope you didn't like your stuff because you won't have it for long. That's essentially what you should expect from a game that has no limits to what can be taken from a person you kill. You could be on your way to a raid, and bam, hit by a hunting party of 10 griefers.
Soon you'll be back to WoW.

Click to expand...

I agree. I know it's more realistic that way, but I don't want to travel back in time and actually fight shit, I want to play a game and have fun. Last night I got a purple weapon and got it enchanted with Mongoose. If I got double-teamed and ganked and they took that away I would stop playing the game.

Too many dicks in the game. For every one of me there are 100 Francis-es that live to troll lowby areas and gank people 30 levels below them.

I would not say it will fail, Mav shows that they have a market for a more no-holds-barred PVP system involving full looting, etc... It can succeed, but it will not reach the numbers of many of the mainstream MMOs. One does not have to be as popular as the competition in order to make profit, they just have to be good enough to make loyal customers.

The biggest fear I can see is them overestimating the amount of the niche audience and ending up like Tabula Rasa, giving up and shutting down before they even really had a chance to evolve and go anywhere.

Shawnacy said:

This game is going to fail.
Because it's based on pvp.
Once the experts, campers, and dicks move in... that's it.
No more fun. No more enjoying yourself.
Hope you didn't like your stuff because you won't have it for long. That's essentially what you should expect from a game that has no limits to what can be taken from a person you kill. You could be on your way to a raid, and bam, hit by a hunting party of 10 griefers.
Soon you'll be back to WoW.

Click to expand...

Except, this game is geared for people like us?

We are the dicks, the campers and the griefers. We don't like pvp in mmo's where you need to wait in line or go into a specific little zone set aside for pvp completely safe away from anyone else. We enjoy the thrill of potentially losing our stuff. We enjoy that chance to completely gank someone and jack their shit. Play to crush imho, worked well for UO and that was one popular game.

Mav said:

worked well for UO and that was one popular game.

Click to expand...

To be fair though, it worked with UO because at the time UO didn't have much competition. EverQuest came out with more lax PVP and it took the top spot not long after, due in part to the more lax PVP. EA even killed Origin because they felt UO2 was going to flop.

The thing is that people with your playstyle are the minority, and so while Darkfall may be successful, they do have a point that most people that play MMOs in this day and age will not give it much more time then whatever trial they put out. The question is pretty much will it turn out like Tabula Rasa? That is what I am most curious seeing, it would suck if it did.

Shawnacy said:

This game is going to fail.
Because it's based on pvp.
Once the experts, campers, and dicks move in... that's it.
No more fun. No more enjoying yourself.
Hope you didn't like your stuff because you won't have it for long. That's essentially what you should expect from a game that has no limits to what can be taken from a person you kill. You could be on your way to a raid, and bam, hit by a hunting party of 10 griefers.
Soon you'll be back to WoW.

Click to expand...

You don't get it. That won't happen because you won't have super awesome gear that you had to grind 50 hours to get. If you die and lose your stuff, you'll probably just go buy some more.

PvM isn't fun. I can completely understand why you like playing your single player mmo "WoW," but the game won't even compare to darkfall.

PvP is fun. If you get hit by a hunting party of 10 griefers, they wouldn't be griefers. They'd just kill you and move on. That's not griefing, that's playing the game. You gotta have your own friends, and skill to play these types of games.

I remember playing EQ and thinking how much fun it would be to play on an open pvp server. Back then I believe they had a rule where you could loot one item off of a person just to give you some incentive. I ended up wasting several hours trying to get out of the starting city because a gang of asshats could freely kill me over and over again.
And sure I get it. I've read what Darkfall wants to give people. It wants to give them an open RP experience where they can pretty much do whatever they want. Some friends of mine were daydreaming about becoming a band of pirates that would raid player made cities.
But the truth is you make a game for pvp nowadays and that's all you are going to get. The best gear is only going to end up in the hands of the best players (or the ones with the most friends). The curious folk who don't know any better will try the game and quickly move on.
Like any game there will be exploits discovered. There will be players camping eachother. You walk out of the armor smith with the brand new chest piece you saved for weeks to get and suddenly you are dead the moment you touch the street.

You say you can deal with it now. But I don't think you'll really understand what you are getting into until you've lost something one of a kind or difficult to obtain.

Le Quack said:

Shawnacy said:

This game is going to fail.
Because it's based on pvp.
Once the experts, campers, and dicks move in... that's it.
No more fun. No more enjoying yourself.
Hope you didn't like your stuff because you won't have it for long. That's essentially what you should expect from a game that has no limits to what can be taken from a person you kill. You could be on your way to a raid, and bam, hit by a hunting party of 10 griefers.
Soon you'll be back to WoW.

Click to expand...

You don't get it. That won't happen because you won't have super awesome gear that you had to grind 50 hours to get. If you die and lose your stuff, you'll probably just go buy some more.

PvM isn't fun. I can completely understand why you like playing your single player mmo "WoW," but the game won't even compare to darkfall.

PvP is fun. If you get hit by a hunting party of 10 griefers, they wouldn't be griefers. They'd just kill you and move on. That's not griefing, that's playing the game. You gotta have your own friends, and skill to play these types of games.

Click to expand...

See, Quack gets it!

Even in other open pvp games, like Shadowbane, losing your gear isn't a huge loss. You can craft more or even get by with just decent magical gear if need be (on quite a few toons). The point isn't to go raiding for 40 hours to get that awesome tier 5 sword of +uberness and then lose it to a griefer. You may find a cool sword off a mob drop or a vendor in a town, and lose it. But you can just go buy another one...

Let's also not forget this game comes with quite a few things other mmo's completely lack;

Naval Combat (in a non-pirate setting so POTBS and POTC don't count).
Player built and owned cities
Player controlled world map
Player controlled server politics
Player created sieges on other player built cities

so even aside from the open range pvp and loot system, the game brings A LOT to the table.

i didnt even think the game would come out, until they announced it's euro launch for January and the fact that beta users are posting their details online..so yea room to hope now

Shawnacy said:

You walk out of the armor smith with the brand new chest piece you saved for weeks to get and suddenly you are dead the moment you touch the street.

Click to expand...

Uh, no? Unless good items cost a lot of gold or stuff to craft, which would need farming, you shouldn't face this problem. The entire point is to be able to have good gear BUT not have to do epic amounts of grinding and farming to get it like WoW, Lineage, etc Sure you'll obviously need to farm, some, to buy gear after losing gear but it will be no where near the amount of other MMO's.

We expect that and know what's coming. When I get killed in DF, I expect to drop all my shit, respawn back in town, repair/replace anything I lost, and head back out ready for more PVP. It comes with the territory. By the same coin I expect to be able to roam around the world map freely, kill who I want, when I want, how I want, and take their stuff if I want

What would be the incentive of killing someone for gear you could make yourself the moment you respawn? The game is clearly going to have items of epic status available to you. And when one of those get stolen... Well you'll be welcome back to WoW.

Mav said:

So, is it fun? I enjoy it, especially because the ability to fully loot each other makes it much more personal.
When I’d just started playing I fought a guy in a field of tall wheat, where I’d noticed how he’d just crouched to ambush me (it was tall enough to cover him when he crouched). At one point he ran off to recover, so I went looking for him in and out of some huts expecting him to jump me at any time… I couldn’t hit tab to see if I could acquire his target because there’s no such thing, I couldn’t mouselook to see if he was sneaking behind me while I looked into the houses, so it felt like a game of cat and mouse - where you don’t know who’s the mouse until the end, I guess… and I realised that for the first time in many years my heart was actually beating faster while pvping in an MMO. I wanted to kill that guy dead! I wanted his stuff! I was inordinately pleased when he died, even if a river in which he fell gave me a helping hand (my PVP stories are a bit lame, sorry).

Click to expand...

YES!

*edit* and this reviewer is a chick too..by the gods..we need more female gamers into mmo's, especially hardcore pvp mmos that's so frakkin awesome

Click to expand...

Not to derail the thread, but.. why do we need more female gamers in MMOs? They don't play any better or worse than a male equivalent -- the only difference would be you could hit on them without feeling a little gay.

Shawnacy said:

What would be the incentive of killing someone for gear you could make yourself the moment you respawn? The game is clearly going to have items of epic status available to you. And when one of those get stolen... Well you'll be welcome back to WoW.

Click to expand...

There might be some higher level items, not sure but even if there is that add's to the game. It's the risk/reward system. The thrill of potentially losing your epic items..the thrill of "omg this guy is almost dead, that fuckin axe is mine!".

I would never play WoW. If it can't be killed it's not worth the time.

Skrattybones said:

Not to derail the thread, but.. why do we need more female gamers in MMOs? They don't play any better or worse than a male equivalent -- the only difference would be you could hit on them without feeling a little gay.

Click to expand...

I don't hit on female gamers it'd just be cool, they are few and far between in the mmo's ive played, all of which have been pvp oriented. so while females in WoW is common..not so common in others.

Ah. I tend to rarely talk to people outside of text in an MMO, so I don't care if it's a guy or a girl. My last guild leader was female though, and it was probably the worst guild I'd ever been in. Super "Let's all Hug the Horde" Carebear style.

If I feel like pvping I play TF2 or a FPS online.

MMOs are RPGs, they're meant to tell stories and deal with big bad monsters. I'm just glad they're not single player anymore.

The only reason I played and pvped on UO (highest ranked bounty on Baja for years) was due to the fact that was stated already. There really wasn't much competition.

Skrattybones said:

Ah. I tend to rarely talk to people outside of text in an MMO, so I don't care if it's a guy or a girl. My last guild leader was female though, and it was probably the worst guild I'd ever been in. Super "Let's all Hug the Horde" Carebear style.

Click to expand...

yea but that was WoW so either way it was carebear style

and it can backfire having female gamers, i was once in a guild who's leader was a 60 year old german american woman...her accent wasn't too bad you could easily understand her but she was like a 20 year old stuck in a 60 year old body..she'd always be talking about looking at porn and what turned her on O_O good guild leader but jesus..some things can never be unheard on teamspeak/ventrilo..

Shawnacy said:

I remember playing EQ and thinking how much fun it would be to play on an open pvp server. Back then I believe they had a rule where you could loot one item off of a person just to give you some incentive. I ended up wasting several hours trying to get out of the starting city because a gang of asshats could freely kill me over and over again.
And sure I get it. I've read what Darkfall wants to give people. It wants to give them an open RP experience where they can pretty much do whatever they want. Some friends of mine were daydreaming about becoming a band of pirates that would raid player made cities.
But the truth is you make a game for pvp nowadays and that's all you are going to get. The best gear is only going to end up in the hands of the best players (or the ones with the most friends). The curious folk who don't know any better will try the game and quickly move on.
Like any game there will be exploits discovered. There will be players camping eachother. You walk out of the armor smith with the brand new chest piece you saved for weeks to get and suddenly you are dead the moment you touch the street.

You say you can deal with it now. But I don't think you'll really understand what you are getting into until you've lost something one of a kind or difficult to obtain.

Click to expand...

I played UO for 10 years. I quit playing pay shards when the last shred of PvP went with AoS. I then played free shards for the remainder of the time played.

I don't play UO much anymore, now, because I've done everything in the game thats interesting to me.


@Bolded Statement
Isn't that the point?
Its like that in every MMO, except in WoW, its not determined by player skill, but rather by how many hours you logged in the game. A game that only takes time to get to the top isn't a good game at all. WoW's RPG elements are shit compared to single player RPGs. The Lore is just there to get the RP between players started. Can you add to the lore in wow? No, its just like playing a single-player game.

I don't doubt that people love playing WoW, but I'm saying that its not really a game. Mediocrity ruins games and thats what WoW is.

Le Quack said:

Its like that in every MMO, except in WoW, its not determined by player skill, but rather by how many hours you logged in the game. A game that only takes time to get to the top isn't a good game at all. WoW's RPG elements are shit compared to single player RPGs. The Lore is just there to get the RP between players started. Can you add to the lore in wow? No, its just like playing a single-player game.

I don't doubt that people love playing WoW, but I'm saying that its not really a game. Mediocrity ruins games and thats what WoW is.

Click to expand...

You are wrong, but your opinion is made, and I have no intention of trying to change it.

But you are still wrong.

ScytheRexx said:

You are wrong, but your opinion is made, and I have no intention of trying to change it.

But you are still wrong.

Click to expand...

Anyone can be good at WoW, if they have a shit ton of time to devote to it. The more time you pump into WoW the better your toon and gear are. Simple. Read a few guides on skills and character specs, grind grind grind for gear, you win. And there's no real endgame cause Blizz just keeps churning out the xpac's with a higher level cap and even better gear.

They tell a good story, I've always loved Blizz's cinematics and craftmanship but they simply made a huge treadmill of a game.

Mav said:

Anyone can be good at WoW, if they have a shit ton of time to devote to it. The more time you pump into WoW the better your toon and gear are. Simple. Read a few guides on skills and character specs, grind grind grind for gear, you win. And there's no real endgame cause Blizz just keeps churning out the xpac's with a higher level cap and even better gear.

They tell a good story, I've always loved Blizz's cinematics and craftmanship but they simply made a huge treadmill of a game.

Click to expand...

Cause a pvp game isn't an epic treadmill of nowhere itself? :eyeroll:

In my opinion, there's a lasting sense of accomplishment when you beat the "xpac" even if a new one comes out with new baddies.

Shegokigo said:

Mav said:

Anyone can be good at WoW, if they have a shit ton of time to devote to it. The more time you pump into WoW the better your toon and gear are. Simple. Read a few guides on skills and character specs, grind grind grind for gear, you win. And there's no real endgame cause Blizz just keeps churning out the xpac's with a higher level cap and even better gear.

They tell a good story, I've always loved Blizz's cinematics and craftmanship but they simply made a huge treadmill of a game.

Click to expand...

Cause a pvp game isn't an epic treadmill of nowhere itself? :eyeroll:

In my opinion, there's a lasting sense of accomplishment when you beat the "xpac" even if a new one comes out with new baddies.

Click to expand...

We'll just have to disagree on that. :blargh:

Shegokigo said:

Cause a pvp game isn't an epic treadmill of nowhere itself? :eyeroll:

Click to expand...

Doesn't have to be. I can reach level cap in Shadowbane in a single day. I can get elite top of the line gear just by asking my guild to craft it. After that it's all bread and butter pvp, aka the fun part. No grinding whatsoever.

Would you classify one day of lvling to cap as a treadmill? I certainly would not.

as for the pvp itself, well since it's player based there is an end goal basically, beat other top guilds, control a server.

Mav said:

Doesn't have to be. I can reach level cap in Shadowbane in a single day. I can get elite top of the line gear just by asking my guild to craft it. After that it's all bread and butter pvp, aka the fun part. No grinding whatsoever.

Would you classify one day of lvling to cap as a treadmill? I certainly would not.

as for the pvp itself, well since it's player based there is an end goal basically, beat other top guilds, control a server.

Click to expand...

So then what's the difference between that kind of MMO and FPS?

Just wanted to say really quick...

We get you guys like open PVP style games, and that is perfectly fine since that is your niche you enjoy, but you can't discredit the game style or the depth of a game you refuse to even play. The fact is that WoW is an enjoyable game, a DIFFERENT TYPE of enjoyment then what you like, but that does not make it a bad game like your fanbase likes to decry like a broken record.

Just play the game you like, and don't come out and get all pissy about the one you don't, is that much to ask really?

ScytheRexx said:

Just wanted to say really quick...

We get you guys like open PVP style games, and that is perfectly fine since that is your niche you enjoy, but you can't discredit the game style or the depth of a game you refuse to even play. The fact is that WoW is an enjoyable game, a DIFFERENT TYPE of enjoyment then what you like, but that does not make it a bad game like your fanbase likes to decry like a broken record.

Just play the game you like, and don't come out and get all pissy about the one you don't, is that much to ask really?

Click to expand...

Shawnacy started it. Mav just posted a review of a noob female gamer that said the game was great. Then Mr. IHATEREALGAMES came along and said his mediocre piece of shit WoW was a superior game. We gave arguments that it wasn't and then it went all down hill.


I've always stated that I understand why people like WoW. It's addictive. I played till level 40 with a small group a friends, and I played it in beta. It just ISN'T fun. It's not a deep game. None of the lore means anything. It is probably the most shallow time-wasting game around. Its a fun game for some, but I don't let myself get roped in to crap games.

Shegokigo said:

Mav said:

Doesn't have to be. I can reach level cap in Shadowbane in a single day. I can get elite top of the line gear just by asking my guild to craft it. After that it's all bread and butter pvp, aka the fun part. No grinding whatsoever.

Would you classify one day of lvling to cap as a treadmill? I certainly would not.

as for the pvp itself, well since it's player based there is an end goal basically, beat other top guilds, control a server.

Click to expand...

So then what's the difference between that kind of MMO and FPS?

Click to expand...

a persistant world, where winning matters. fps has a point to winning, if you're in a clan for a ladder or tourney but for mmo's it's about, pvp at least, it's about being the best there is on your server, dominate through fighting not how much you grind.

i cringe when the hardcore wow players brag about having this or that item or reaching this or that level. i realize the game is fun for you but the only thing you've accomplished is you spent more time grinding the treadmill than another player. when you have to put yourself to the test, your skill versus another humans skill with your items on the line, that is the true test of a point to pvp in an mmo.

Le Quack said:

Shawnacy started it. Mav just posted a review of a noob female gamer that said the game was great. Then Mr. IHATEREALGAMES came along and said his mediocre piece of shit WoW was a superior game. We gave arguments that it wasn't and then it went all down hill.


I've always stated that I understand why people like WoW. It's addictive. I played till level 40 with a small group a friends, and I played it in beta. It just ISN'T fun. It's not a deep game. None of the lore means anything. It is probably the most shallow time-wasting game around. Its a fun game for some, but I don't let myself get roped in to crap games.

Click to expand...

You were almost a conversationalist till that last line. You're subjecting info as fact when it is opinion. What you consider fun vs what others consider fun can never be held in a factual light.

Mav said:

a persistant world, where winning matters. fps has a point to winning, if you're in a clan for a ladder or tourney but for mmo's it's about, pvp at least, it's about being the best there is on your server, dominate through fighting not how much you grind.

i cringe when the hardcore wow players brag about having this or that item or reaching this or that level. i realize the game is fun for you but the only thing you've accomplished is you spent more time grinding the treadmill than another player. when you have to put yourself to the test, your skill versus another humans skill with your items on the line, that is the true test of a point to pvp in an mmo.

Click to expand...

Massively have to disagree with you there. Your skill vs another humans is almost never the case in MMO pvp. It's mostly based on paper rock scissors of your class being the paper/rock/scissors winner over your opponents. How exactly do you proclaim being the "best" on a PVP server exactly? Without a record of kills or what not to track it? Then if there is such systems in place, how does the longer grinder exactly not beat the shorter one even if he's lesser skilled? At least on a PVE game you can claim being better with the systems in place.

Shegokigo said:

Massively have to disagree with you there. Your skill vs another humans is almost never the case in MMO pvp. It's mostly based on paper rock scissors of your class being the paper/rock/scissors winner over your opponents. How exactly do you proclaim being the "best" on a PVP server exactly? Without a record of kills or what not to track it? Then if there is such systems in place, how does the longer grinder exactly not beat the shorter one even if he's lesser skilled? At least on a PVE game you can claim being better with the systems in place.

Click to expand...

It doesn't always come down to rock paper scissors. It depends on your skill on builds. I've seen people make melee based toons that can swing for shit tons of damage, yet die to glass cannon mages who have the hit points of a piece of paper, simply cause they aren't good at playing that class OR they built their toon shitty. Sure there are times where Class A beats Class B but in some open pvp games, a lot of it comes down to skill, your build you used, the gear you're using (it helps but isn't always the key to winning), and knowing what the fuck you're doing.

As for being the best, I look back to Shadowbane or Darkfall as an example. How do you be the best in these games? You control an entire server. And we're not talking about just having a few parties/groups of your guild camping an area like you might able to do in WoW, we're talking OWNING vast amounts of space of player controlled world maps, OWNING access to high end mobs and items. It's not about a record or grinding to reach that record. If you want to be the best in pvp, you dominate others. Sure someone better might come along and sure you could "Grind" time to eventually beat them and be dominate again but it happens quite often people simply, move on.

After you've beaten people, taken their shit, destroyed their cities, and you practically own an entire server, a lot of guilds choose to move servers to another server with more/less activity or a server where they can get more challenges. This could also be seen as the "endgame". You own a server, congrats you win. No more grind if you don't want to, in either pvp form or not. In WoW PvE..it never fucking ends, more xpacks, more areas to explore more gear to get, another increase in level cap..And even the pvp has no end goal in WoW, neither Alliance or Horde is ever going to win a server, since it's all in Blizzard's hands. Put the faction politics in player's hands, add open range pvp, and let US decide when its over.

@Shegokigo

Yeah well, some people think sitting in yard digging a hole with a stick is fun. Personally, it's not my thing.

Actually, this does kind of seem fun. I'd suck horribly at it, but it does seem fun. The thing about MMOs that turn me off is the raiding for hours and hours for a stupid purple item that 100 other guys have anyway. I think turning the emphasis around might be just what I need to have fun again.

ElJuski said:

Actually, this does kind of seem fun. I'd suck horribly at it, but it does seem fun. The thing about MMOs that turn me off is the raiding for hours and hours for a stupid purple item that 100 other guys have anyway. I think turning the emphasis around might be just what I need to have fun again.

Click to expand...

one of us! one of us! one of us!

Le Quack said:

I played till level 40 with a small group a friends, and I played it in beta. It just ISN'T fun. It's not a deep game. None of the lore means anything. It is probably the most shallow time-wasting game around. Its a fun game for some, but I don't let myself get roped in to crap games.

Click to expand...

All I needed to hear was the first sentence to confirm what I have already said, the rest just emphasized it further in my favor.

In the end, you are still wrong, your opinion is just an opinion, and very far from actual fact.

And I guess the fact is "WoW is fun" right?

Because thats what you think. It has to be a good game if you think its fun.

Mav said:

ElJuski said:

Actually, this does kind of seem fun. I'd suck horribly at it, but it does seem fun. The thing about MMOs that turn me off is the raiding for hours and hours for a stupid purple item that 100 other guys have anyway. I think turning the emphasis around might be just what I need to have fun again.

Click to expand...

one of us! one of us! one of us!

Click to expand...

That said I'll probably never actually play it because I'm allergic to 'core-itude, in any shape or form. But it seems more fun for popping in whenever and dicking around. Which I totally dig.

Le Quack said:

And I guess the fact is "WoW is fun" right?

Because thats what you think. It has to be a good game if you think its fun.

Click to expand...

No, but calling a game "crap" is going from opinion to unsubstantiated fact. :slywink:

Shegokigo said:

Le Quack said:

And I guess the fact is "WoW is fun" right?

Because thats what you think. It has to be a good game if you think its fun.

Click to expand...

No, but calling a game "crap" is going from opinion to unsubstantiated fact. :slywink:

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Quiznos?

ElJuski said:

Quiznos?

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Is tasty to me, but I hear others are not so privy to it's flavors and prefer Subway.

Shegokigo said:

ElJuski said:

Quiznos?

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Is tasty to me, but I hear others are not so privy to it's flavors and prefer Subway.

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I'm a Jimmy John's fan myself, but I respect your decision to enjoy Subway, even though that may not be the particular thing which I personally enjoy.

Le Quack said:

And I guess the fact is "WoW is fun" right?

Because that's what you think. It has to be a good game if you think its fun.

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Well I think the 11.5 million people standing behind me might think so too...

However, even pointing that out is moot, you will make the baseless claim "they are all addicted." I will throw in some words explaining how idiotic that sounded, you will say it is crap and hollow, I will say you barely even played enough to validate that opinion.

Sooner or later it will come back around to me saying "Well we have fun just like you have fun with your games I don't like, why is this a problem?" and you will shoot back with "Well some people poop on peoples lawns for fun" and I will say "And some people think the movie Citizen Kane was a boring melodramatic failure" and around and around we go.

In the end, you are still going to be wrong, because you have done nothing to validate your opinion as fact. Its like driving a porshe two blocks and calling it a crap bucket because you didn't like how the seats felt for the first minute, you kind of lose out on an opinion when you obviously never wanted to really get into it in the first place.

You say you dislike WoW, that is perfectly fine because not everyone enjoys the same games, but calling it "hollow", "crap" , etc... only show you as at the least ignorant, and at the worst, jealous.

P.S Jimmy Johns rocks, that is all.

ElJuski said:

I'm a Jimmy John's fan myself, but I respect your decision to enjoy Subway, even though that may not be the particular thing which I personally enjoy.

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Yet I clearly stated I prefer Quiznos. L2readNoob!

Shegokigo said:

ElJuski said:

I'm a Jimmy John's fan myself, but I respect your decision to enjoy Subway, even though that may not be the particular thing which I personally enjoy.

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Yet I clearly stated I prefer Quiznos. L2readNoob!

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FOILED AGAIN

You can continue to call my opinion unsubstantianted just because I didn't waste my life getting all classes to level 80.

Can you tell me why you LIKE the game? I mean, the lore is butchered when you compare it to when it was a RTS series. The quests are menial and pointless. The PvP is shit. The PvE is boring. The raids are long and uneventful. The whole game is made for people who A) Have a whole lot of time to waste, or B) Are extremly casualy gamers that like to log a few hours in every few while.

You know what else is like that?
Peggle.

Peggle is a fun game, but it really doesn't compare to the rush of when you play against some body.
I can understand that you like the game, but don't try to pass it off as "Deep" or "Well-made."

Don't quote numbers either; lots of people saw Star War Episode 2 in theatres and it was shit.

I played WoW for the entirety of Beta and the first 3 1/2 months getting to level 40. There was nothing challenging about the game. The game was designed for everyone to "Win." There was nothing to set a part the people that sucked, or the people that were good.

It pains me for people to tell me that Darkfall won't make it because "Its too hard." I think it reflects something to our society about accomplishment.

Also, before you say, "I don't play for the challenge." There are plenty of other games that are just as communal and fun that don't require a monthly fee.

I felt I was being cheated out of my money for having to pay monthly for WoW.

Le Quack said:

You can continue to call my opinion unsubstantianted just because I didn't waste my life getting all classes to level 80.

Can you tell me why you LIKE the game? I mean, the lore is butchered when you compare it to when it was a RTS series. The quests are menial and pointless. The PvP is shit. The PvE is boring. The raids are long and uneventful. The whole game is made for people who A) Have a whole lot of time to waste, or B) Are extremly casualy gamers that like to log a few hours in every few while.

You know what else is like that?
Peggle.

Peggle is a fun game, but it really doesn't compare to the rush of when you play against some body.
I can understand that you like the game, but don't try to pass it off as "Deep" or "Well-made."

Don't quote numbers either; lots of people saw Star War Episode 2 in theatres and it was shit.

I played WoW for the entirety of Beta and the first 3 1/2 months getting to level 40. There was nothing challenging about the game. The game was designed for everyone to "Win." There was nothing to set a part the people that sucked, or the people that were good.

It pains me for people to tell me that Darkfall won't make it because "Its too hard." I think it reflects something to our society about accomplishment.

Also, before you say, "I don't play for the challenge." There are plenty of other games that are just as communal and fun that don't require a monthly fee.

I felt I was being cheated out of my money for having to pay monthly for WoW.

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You completely missed the point being thrown at you Le Quack. Seriously, might want to go back and read then edit this post. If you require me to explain it to you, well then I think I'll just leave things as they are.

Le Quack said:

You can continue to call my opinion unsubstantianted just because I didn't waste my life getting all classes to level 80.

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Your opinion is worthless because you haven't experienced the depth of the game.

Can you tell me why you LIKE the game? I mean, the lore is butchered when you compare it to when it was a RTS series. The quests are menial and pointless. The PvP is shit. The PvE is boring. The raids are long and uneventful. The whole game is made for people who A) Have a whole lot of time to waste, or B) Are extremly casualy gamers that like to log a few hours in every few while.

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Lore changes, so what? Deal with it and move on. You can't limit the game to just RTS lore or else they would have run out of interesting ideas to add long ago. Questing in any game is menial. That's just the way MMO's are. Doesn't matter which one you play. Well... not so much in WoW. There are some pretty damn badass quests that aren't menial and they aren't pointless.

Again, if you actually played the expansion and experienced phasing content like the Wrathgate series and the constant push forward through Icecrown. The zone actually changes for you when you complete certain quest series. That makes them far from pointless.

PvP is shit in WoW because it's something tacked on to a PvE game. Darkfall is a pure PvP game. Eve Online carved a niche out and it's nearly all PvP with a healthy PvE set up. Even then, there's still player battles over resources and market price wars.

Peggle is a fun game, but it really doesn't compare to the rush of when you play against some body.
I can understand that you like the game, but don't try to pass it off as "Deep" or "Well-made." I played WoW for the entirety of Beta and the first 3 1/2 months getting to level 40. There was nothing challenging about the game. The game was designed for everyone to "Win." There was nothing to set a part the people that sucked, or the people that were good.

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Stop posting. Your opinion is WORTHLESS. You played in the beta. You only played to lvl 40. Your opinion is 100% WORTHLESS. Come back when you've played the game as it is right now and up to a reasonable level.

It pains me for people to tell me that Darkfall won't make it because "Its too hard." I think it reflects something to our society about accomplishment. Also, before you say, "I don't play for the challenge." There are plenty of other games that are just as communal and fun that don't require a monthly fee.

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Eve Online is a difficult game, yet it continues to grow.

I felt I was being cheated out of my money for having to pay monthly for WoW.

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Fine. MMO's aren't for you. Now shut up and get out of the thread until you have some real experience playing the current version of WoW and not some three year old beta experience that you didn't even finish. If WoW is so easy, why weren't you lvl 60 with full epics from raiding?

Le Quack said:

You can continue to call my opinion unsubstantianted just because I didn't waste my life getting all classes to level 80.

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You don't even need to get to 80, you just have to actually, you know, put some effort into it, but I digress..

Can you tell me why you LIKE the game? I mean, the lore is butchered when you compare it to when it was a RTS series. The quests are menial and pointless. The PvP is shit. The PvE is boring. The raids are long and uneventful. The whole game is made for people who A) Have a whole lot of time to waste, or B) Are extremly casualy gamers that like to log a few hours in every few while.

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Lore is actually not as bad as you seem to think. It has had a bit of a bumpy ride due to retcons, but more people are interested in the story then ever with all the info added in WOTLK. The game has more novels out under it's title then most other fantasy games, and even it's own comic series. So you think the story "went to shit", good for you. You never even saw most of the story.

Quests can be menial, but never pointless. I can argue that any game is menial, you can only fight people in PVP so long before the whole thing becomes boring, no matter the game. I love some of the quests in the game, whether I am bombing demons or riding a dragon and beating off another person off said dragon, I enjoy it. You can look under my character info for the "Loremaster of Northrend" achievement because I actually did all the quests for fun, as with most of the zones long after I reached level cap. I really liked seeing how each zone developed.

"The PVP is shit" is not very accurate. "The PVP is not hardcore enough for my e-peen to grow" is much better sentence for you. The PVP is fine because it is something we choose to do, we can enjoy it, get a few marks and honor for future rewards, and skip it if we don't feel like it. That is the whole basis of the game, choice...

PVE? I have a lot of fun taking on new encounters, and yet sometimes doing the same encounter can get boring, which is why I then PVP, or do instances, or farm for my crafts, or go help my friend, or... etc... Need I go on? Every game has things you can consider repetitious and boring, WoW gives us the option to choose our poison, making it less repetitious then pretty much any MMO out right now that concentrate on one single "niche".

As for raids? You admitted you never even went on one since you never passed 40, so speak for what you know, rather then what you take from your ass. Thanks.

As for the last comment, I fall under neither A or B, what should I count myself as? C) A person that actually plays games for fun rather then giant e-peen levels of douchbaggery? Such a novel concept.

You know what else is like that?
Peggle.

Peggle is a fun game, but it really doesn't compare to the rush of when you play against some body.

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Peggle is also one of the most popular games in the world. Why, sometimes people play for the fun, not the rush.

That is your problem, you seem to think those that don't follow your guidelines for what you consider "hardcore" or "leet" are inferior, and so I hope you see a shrink so you can get over your meaningless superiority complex. Really, I do.

I can understand that you like the game, but don't try to pass it off as "Deep" or "Well-made."

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It is well made, and while it is simple, it does have it's deep mechanics too. That has been something Blizzard always did well, they make games that are simple to learn, easy to pickup, but can be difficult to really master.

Speak for what you know, then I will listen to you. You, frankly, know only "jack" and "shit" at this point since you seemed to have you mind made up about the game before you even really got to half of it.

Don't quote numbers either; lots of people saw Star War Episode 2 in theatres and it was shit.

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Ah, so obviously you must have such a sophisticated taste in MMOs that we all must be sheep following the herd. Another sign of ignorance. I hope you like sitting down in your cave of "I rule" because really, it might get a bit lonely down there.

I played WoW for the entirety of Beta and the first 3 1/2 months getting to level 40. There was nothing challenging about the game. The game was designed for everyone to "Win." There was nothing to set a part the people that sucked, or the people that were good.

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I was also in Beta since Phase 1, back then the most we saw was Scarlet Monestary and later Blackrock Depts as high level instances before Molten Core, etc... was released. I can see how you would get annoyed by an unfinished product, but that is more a fault of your own impatience then that of the game.

It pains me for people to tell me that Darkfall won't make it because "Its too hard." I think it reflects something to our society about accomplishment.

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It is not because it is "too hard" but because, to some people, getting ganked is "not fun".

Also, before you say, "I don't play for the challenge." There are plenty of other games that are just as communal and fun that don't require a monthly fee.

I felt I was being cheated out of my money for having to pay monthly for WoW.

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You are right, I don't play for the challenge, I play for the fun of it. You seem to lack a grasp of that, like your brain is suddenly going to explode that people don't agree with you on something you lack so much knowledge about. I play single player games on NORMAL too, OH NOES HE IS THE NEWBIE. :lol:

I don't wish to change your opinion on WoW, but I do wish you to at least be factual about what you talk about. All I hear right now is jealous nerd rage filled with a lot of hot air, I am sorry your game of choice is not popular and "hip", and that you feel you need to fight the popular game just to validate it, but really, at least know what you are talking about when it comes to the game you are bashing. You rant off an uneducated opinion as fact, and you will fail.

P.S. As an aside, it is Christmas Eve, so I think we should just go spend time with our families rather then argue about our prefered gaming method at this point. Good night and Happy Holidays! Even you Le Quack!

ScytheRexx said:

P.S. As an aside, it is Christmas Eve, so I think we should just go spend time with our families rather then argue about our prefered gaming method at this point. Good night and Happy Holidays! Even you Le Quack!

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Every year on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day I make a point to roll around the starting zones, find players with unretarded names, find out if they're new to the server/game, and if they are, give them 100g. I can't do it this year 'cause WoW won't run on my computer anymore.

But it's the thought that counts, right?

You are right, I don't play for the challenge, I play for the fun of it. You seem to lack a grasp of that, like your brain is suddenly going to explode that people don't agree with you on something you lack so much knowledge about. I play single player games on NORMAL too, OH NOES HE IS THE NEWBIE.

I don't wish to change your opinion on WoW, but I do wish you to at least be factual about what you talk about. All I hear right now is jealous nerd rage filled with a lot of hot air, I am sorry your game of choice is not popular and "hip", and that you feel you need to fight the popular game just to validate it, but really, at least know what you are talking about when it comes to the game you are bashing. You rant off an uneducated opinion as fact, and you will fail.

P.S. As an aside, it is Christmas Eve, so I think we should just go spend time with our families rather then argue about our prefered gaming method at this point. Good night and Happy Holidays! Even you Le Quack!

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Why do you keep asking me to be factual when you are being just as righteously opinionated. You act like everything you say is correct, when its really not.

The only reason WoW has such vast popularity is because it requires large communities to participate in. You need 40+ people to do some raids, and that helps create a community of friends. The relationship between people in a game grows very strongly, and since you have to many friends because of the high amounts of people required, the pull to keep you in the game is very heavy.

I think the only reason all these people keep playing is because they want to stay with their friends, and nobody wants to leave their friends behind.

I went into WoW with a group of friends already with me, so we got to do our leveling rather quickly. It wasn't long before we all realized that we were playing an inferior game. We didn't HAVE to play WoW to keep our friendship.

Speak for what you know, then I will listen to you. You, frankly, know only "jack" and "shit" at this point since you seemed to have you mind made up about the game before you even really got to half of it.

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A shitty first half of the game is still half of a shitty game. You don't know shit about the more open MMOs, so stop talking like an expert.

I believe Yahtzee said, "While a shitty first half of a game makes it a shitty game, a good first half of the game doesn't make it a good game."
He didn't even say that on his review of an MMO, he said it on Condemned 2. (Good Memory, didn't look it up)

I will still fall back and say the PvP IS boring. The PvP is HEAVILY imbalanced. You say that you can only PvP so long before it gets boring. I.E. THE GAME IS BORING. I pvp'd 24/7 in UO and it wasn't boring. I wasn't even very good at it. The game was just so open (No Set Classes, chose your own skills) it allowed for me to play it my own way.

It is not because it is "too hard" but because, to some people, getting ganked is "not fun".

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Have you EVER played UO or Shadowbane (or to a lesser extent EvE)? No, you didn't. You didn't experience any part of the game, so your opinion has less weight than that of mine on WoW.

All your arguments are based on hearsay and that "All pvp is ganking." You have no basis whatsoever to have these opinions other than bias against games like these.

Peggle is also one of the most popular games in the world. Why, sometimes people play for the fun, not the rush.

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Yeah, but people don't pay monthly to play peggle. If I'm paying monthly or a game, I don't want it to be a co-op version of "Wicker." I'll just have to say that it is idiotic to pay for a monthly game that doesn't fully capitalize on the multiplayer aspects.

As for the last comment, I fall under neither A or B, what should I count myself as? C) A person that actually plays games for fun rather then giant e-peen levels of douchbaggery? Such a novel concept.

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I play games for fun, WoW isn't fun to me. I have reasons why. I think you only continue to play WoW instead of a better game because of the relationship tied to the game. WoW comes with so much extra baggages that it KEEPS you sucked in with friends, and not good game content.


P.S. Merry Christmas.......













idiot.

Just a heads up, I pvped exclusively with a bit of dragon taming fortune making on the side back on UO. It was fun, I led the most successful PVP guild we had on the server. Truth is though, had I gotten into FPSs before that, I probably wouldn't have glanced at UO again. Why? Because like I said. MMOs are RPGs, they're meant for the PVE aspect and fall flat in the PVP area when compared to other player vs player genres.

The reason Shadowbane failed is the same reason Darkfall will. It's not because it's not a great game (it very well could be), or that pvp is for loozerzlolxors, but because there's not a big enough audience for it outside of FPS games like TF2, Halo etc.

I.. played EvE Online, and went back to WoW 'cause getting ganked sucked. It's pointless to pick up a PvP focused MMO style game unless you get it day one and never stop playing, because if not there will always be heaps of people killing you.

WoW, on the other hand, takes some of that trouble away.

Shegokigo said:

Just a heads up, I pvped exclusively with a bit of dragon taming fortune making on the side back on UO. It was fun, I led the most successful PVP guild we had on the server. Truth is though, had I gotten into FPSs before that, I probably wouldn't have glanced at UO again. Why? Because like I said. MMOs are RPGs, they're meant for the PVE aspect and fall flat in the PVP area when compared to other player vs player genres.

The reason Shadowbane failed is the same reason Darkfall will. It's not because it's not a great game (it very well could be), or that pvp is for loozerzlolxors, but because there's not a big enough audience for it outside of FPS games like TF2, Halo etc.

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Not all MMOs are RPGs. MMORPGs should have interplayer RP.
I RP'd extensively in UO, and not so much shadowbane. Without the free reign that UOtype MMOs give, all the RP is preplanned, and there isn't much of anything that players can do to affect their enviroment.

I was cal-i CS 1.6, but I always played UO because team tactics and pvp was just so well developed. Along with RP elements and vast amounts of freedom, you could do just about anything in UO.


EDIT: What server did you play? I probably know the guild.

Honestly? Before the Trammy patch, UO was perfection as far as it came to players vs players. Huge battles or small scale scuffles brought alot of energy to the game. (Baja server btw LoD, LotD, or T_A at some given point)

Problem is? Like everythingelse it got "min-maxed" and the pvp became about "if you had the right skills/spec/class" and just mowed down other people. Didn't matter how much skill you had if you went up against a dex monkey in underwear during that patch, or against a 1shot-Heavy HQ X-Bow archer. It's been like that ever since, classes/specs/skills will always undermine skill, the only exception is two players playing the exact same class go at it, then it becomes a yawnfest of who can pull of what first.

I'm sure large scale battles are more fun these days in PVP MMOs, but again, I don't see how the systems of Shadowbane are in anyway superior to say Team Fortress, Counterstrike or Quake in terms of player vs player battles. The reason PVP mmos are failing is because pvpers are playing those FPSs instead.

Skrattybones said:

ScytheRexx said:

P.S. As an aside, it is Christmas Eve, so I think we should just go spend time with our families rather then argue about our prefered gaming method at this point. Good night and Happy Holidays! Even you Le Quack!

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Every year on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day I make a point to roll around the starting zones, find players with unretarded names, find out if they're new to the server/game, and if they are, give them 100g. I can't do it this year 'cause WoW won't run on my computer anymore.

But it's the thought that counts, right?

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That's awesome skratty. Anytime I see someone new to SB and they're asking questions I always stop to answer. I remember what it was like to be new to a game and have little to no help.

Mav said:

Skrattybones said:

ScytheRexx said:

P.S. As an aside, it is Christmas Eve, so I think we should just go spend time with our families rather then argue about our prefered gaming method at this point. Good night and Happy Holidays! Even you Le Quack!

Click to expand...

Every year on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day I make a point to roll around the starting zones, find players with unretarded names, find out if they're new to the server/game, and if they are, give them 100g. I can't do it this year 'cause WoW won't run on my computer anymore.

But it's the thought that counts, right?

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That's awesome skratty. Anytime I see someone new to SB and they're asking questions I always stop to answer. I remember what it was like to be new to a game and have little to no help.

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Yeah, me too.

Not as much as I used to back in the day -- Pre-Burning Crusade it got around that I would help most people who needed it, and suddenly I found myself running newbies through lower level instances for phat loot.

Shegokigo said:

Honestly? Before the Trammy patch, UO was perfection as far as it came to players vs players. Huge battles or small scale scuffles brought alot of energy to the game. (Baja server btw LoD, LotD, or T_A at some given point)

Problem is? Like everythingelse it got "min-maxed" and the pvp became about "if you had the right skills/spec/class" and just mowed down other people. Didn't matter how much skill you had if you went up against a dex monkey in underwear during that patch, or against a 1shot-Heavy HQ X-Bow archer. It's been like that ever since, classes/specs/skills will always undermine skill, the only exception is two players playing the exact same class go at it, then it becomes a yawnfest of who can pull of what first.

I'm sure large scale battles are more fun these days in PVP MMOs, but again, I don't see how the systems of Shadowbane are in anyway superior to say Team Fortress, Counterstrike or Quake in terms of player vs player battles. The reason PVP mmos are failing is because pvpers are playing those FPSs instead.

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I think the most balanced PvP came after the trammy patch, but before publish 16. It took awhile for mages to get the hang of killing dexers, but eventually they came around.

The free server UO: Hybrid has the largest skill templates around. There are the bread and butter skill combos, but they don't take up 100% of your skill points, allowing for large amounts of leway in what you played.

I PvP'd a lot on the Atlantic server in the S|S guild. It was a thieves guild. I played a fencer/disarm/thief and it was probably the most fun I ever had. Later on, I got invovled in the free shard orc guild that allowed for massive tactics, such as box dropping and ect.

I have a secret........

I didn't like shadowbane as much as I liked UO.
It was slightly tweaked differently because of classes, and UO still had a large player base in Fellucca.

I always thought of skill of how well you played against your weakness, and how you overcame it.

Hoo boy. I dare not let my darkfall-loving friend see this thread - I'd never hear the end of it.

Man, why is it that when someone starts talking about a new MMO people from another MMO (not a specific one, I promise) have to come in and start talking about how it will not be as good. NEWS FLASH. MMO is going to be a massive gaming genre, and we need to realize that saying that people won't play Civ 4 because Heroes of Might and Magic 4 is better makes as much sense as saying people won't dig Darkfall because WoW is better (or vice versa). They are MASSIVELY different games. There are already a couple MMOs that people would never compare like that. Second Life anyone?

I guess the one problem is that MMOs are a bit unique because most people only play one. Still though, I think that there are enough differences between them to allow for both to be good.

WoW was a great game. It was like playing Neverwinter Nights in coop mode with 10,000 other players in a persistent world (that didn't have a moron GM). Personally I got tired of it after a while, but I understand why other people like it. Me, I like the idea of competition. Not specifically PvP, but competition, and this is something that WoW lacks at a certain level. The game is more centered around coop PvE. There can be cooperation in competition, but that doesn't really exist in WoW (or didn't when I stopped playing). Sure you have BGs and open RvR, but to what ultimate goal?

The best example of a game centered around competition I have played is EvE online. Every part of the world, from mining to research to economics to combat are all centered around competition with other players. Can you outfly them? Can you outbuy them? Can you outmine them? Can you oubuild them?Can you outhink them? In the end you have achievements that I really don't think are possible in a game like WoW, like being the head of Band of Brothers, an alliance of maybe 10,000 pilots, or being the go to guy for highly rare spaceships, or being the leader of a massive ice magnate, or (my personal favorite) being the most hated and feared pirate to roam the sky.

The interesting thing to me is that a game like EvE that is so based on competition ultimately forces cooperation. People flying solo will fail (except a really good pirate, but even thats hard). You just can't compete with the big boys on your own. The level of cooperation required is so much more than you could ever find in WoW as well.

Now, all that said, WoW has never made me so mad that I want to put my fist through my monitor. I have never gotten drunk, played WoW, and lost months worth of work because I was playing badly(I lost 2 battleships back to back one night.) Its actually quite the opposite, my favorite memories of WoW were after we finished our MC run the remaining players would get really drunk and hit upper black rock spire (we called them drunken uppers) and just fly through it.

Ultimately WoW is a much more casual, and easier to enjoy game. For many people this is great, but for people like myself, Le Quack, and Mav we want something different. We want a game that challenges us by putting us up against the best that other players have to offer and then humbling us when we fall short. Repeatedly.

The real question, of course, is whether or not they can pull it off. Other people have done games like this before and succeded with them. EvE is the best living example. But it has an incredible dev team (IMHO the best dev team in existance relative to its size), and Aventurine is completely untested.

Anyways, there is room for all kinds, so there :finger:

PS About the greifing thing. From my experience greifing is very different in games like this. For one no one will just kill you for the fuck of it, they will only do it if they see potential for reward. This is very different from WoW where the only reward is seeing someone log off. Also, unlike WoW there are serious repercussions for being a douchebag in games like this. In EvE if you badmouthed the wrong man you could end up wardecced out of existance, and I am sure similar things will happen in Darkfall. Because, if you remember what I said earlier, games like this require cooperation to maintain competitivity, and griefers rarely cooperate on any serious scale. They are super powered individuals, and these games don't allow for that.

i haven't read everything but what they usually do when there is looting in pvp is come up with ways to protect uber items:

Some items can be "soulstoned" and become no drop
In AC, you would drop some items based on value, ie you'd travel with a lot of expensive junk to cover your weapon
lots of ways really...

All i know is during the 3 years i played wow, i never enjoyed pvp as much as i did playing AC and muds where you know, there was the chance you could actually lose something if you played like a schmuck

Based on arguments from Le Quack he obviously has no idea how much gameplay in WoW has changed since he got to level 40 some five years ago. Raids require less man-power, PVP offers rewards based on skill and teamwork, and the PVE is genious in the latest expansion.

Based on arguments by Mav he prefers games that have some sort of end game. I find it odd that he would complain about WoW because it constantly receives new content for players to explore, but I guess to each his own.

Darkfall is going to come out, and it's going to be quickly forgotten. This is my prediction.
Like City of Heroes it will have it's loyal player base but it's going to suffer in the long term. A game like Darkfall sounds like it will require players to ally with each other for protection, but at the same time they will be afraid to do just that. With everyone a potential target how do you decide who you can trust? Mav has argued that the best part of the game will be to "own" a server. Well what if you don't end up "owning" it? What if you find yourself on a server with the WoW equivalent of the Goon Squad and they end up owning it? Will you still enjoy repurchasing or and earning your gear over and over again? It's a simple question. And if you answer "yes" then I suppose Darkfall is the game for you. In fact I'm sure that the PVP will be quite challenging for a while until people start figuring out how to exploit using their classes or the environment.

I wish you the best of luck.

Oh and Le Quack, I'm quoting you for my signature. It's like we're two kids fighting in the back seat of the car. :finger: :waah:

Necronic said:

PS About the greifing thing. From my experience greifing is very different in games like this. For one no one will just kill you for the fuck of it, they will only do it if they see potential for reward.

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Uh, no? I kill people all the fucking time in Shadowbane and over pvp based mmo's, for the fun of it. I'll do the same if I play Darkfall.

That's the beauty of open range pvp. If it moves, kill it. Anything is open to be killed. It's not griefing. If I camp a certain area a certain player always goes by and constantly pwn him over and over, that's not griefing in a pvp game. It's called, playing the game.

Shawnacy said:

Based on arguments from Le Quack he obviously has no idea how much gameplay in WoW has changed since he got to level 40 some five years ago. Raids require less man-power, PVP offers rewards based on skill and teamwork, and the PVE is genious in the latest expansion.

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Some aspects of gameplay have changed (I'll give Blizz credit for some solid expansions), but the underlying fundamentals of the game haven't. Its a very low risk game. I can just randomly walk around and get myself killed repeatedly and there is almost no penalty. Now, like I said in my previous post that has some serious benefits, but for some of us that's boring.

Based on arguments by Mav he prefers games that have some sort of end game. I find it odd that he would complain about WoW because it constantly recieves new content for players to explore, but I guess to each his own.

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You are correct there. WoW is all endgame. That was actually one of my complaints with it, was that there was really only one goal, getting to endgame. Blizz is very good about constantly expanding endgame. I think that if it wasn't going to be such a pain to get back to endgame I might be more willing to restart (my 63 warrior would take forever).

A game like Darkfall sounds like it will require players to ally with each other for protection, but at the same time they will be afraid to do just that. With everyone a potential target how do you decide who you can trust? Mav has argued that the best part of the game will be to "own" a server. Well what if you don't end up "owning" it? What if you find yourself on a server with the WoW equivalent of the Goon Squad and they end up owning it?

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I wonder if the goon squad in WoW are the same people from EvE (there is a very powerful goon squad there). In terms of who you can trust that works itself out. People come with their own guilds from other games, are core groups of RL friends, or simply see more profit in working together with someone than just killing them. Of course you will have traitors, but they will more than likely be publicly outed and their oppurtunities will quickly dwindle. Same thing happens to corp thieves in EvE.

Will you still enjoy repurchasing or and earning your gear over and over again? It's a simple question. And if you answer "yes" then I suppose Darkfall is the game for you.

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Of course you won't. The premise of this game is so different from WoW that not every part of it is based on reward. There are also punishments. Serious punishments. But to the victor go the spoils, and while I will be pissed when repurchasing gear I will also be thrilled in a way other games can't give me when I am taking the gear myself.

In fact I'm sure that the PVP will be quite challenging for a while until people start figuring out how to exploit using their classes or the environment.

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That is a fair concern. Every game has balance issues and based on the very limited beta being done in Darkfall there will probably be more balance issues. But I doubt you will see many people taking advantage of exploits, the people that play games like this do it for the challenge, and generally have no problem with seeing draconian measures taken against people using exploits. That was something that actually helped get me to quit WoW, was that so much of the open rvr I got into was exploits. Asshats on roofs or sapping me in town or shit like that. I know they finally fixed it, but what they should have done was just straight out say they would ban people for doing this. They never did a damn thing to them.

Shawncy said:

I wish you the best of luck.

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No you don't.

shawncy said:

Oh and Le Quack, I'm quoting you for my signature. I love it when people defend their argument with the equivalent of "But, Mom, he started it".

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You should re read his comment, it was made in defense of people saying he started it, which really he didn't.

Mav said:

Necronic said:

PS About the greifing thing. From my experience greifing is very different in games like this. For one no one will just kill you for the fuck of it, they will only do it if they see potential for reward.

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Uh, no? I kill people all the fucking time in Shadowbane and over pvp based mmo's, for the fun of it. I'll do the same if I play Darkfall.

That's the beauty of open range pvp. If it moves, kill it. Anything is open to be killed. It's not griefing. If I camp a certain area a certain player always goes by and constantly pwn him over and over, that's not griefing in a pvp game. It's called, playing the game.

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Yeah, but griefing actually involves risk, right? Trying to kill another player means you can get killed yourself. And at some points the question of whether you want to risk loosing something for a minimal gain will keep people from griefing. Not all the time, of course. But there will be a lot more risk for pretty much the same reward in this game.

Edit: I should clarify, the game will be a bloodbath compared to WoW. There will be people killing each other left and right, but most people doing the killing will be doing it for a tangible in game goal, for a reason. This is different than greifing, where there is no profit to be had, no territory to claim, nothing but the knowledge that you pissed someone else off. Even the latter will be more tangible, because if you pop someone stupid enough to be walking around in some nice expensive armor all by himself it will feel very satisfying knowing how much you pissed him off, because you really really hurt him in real in game ways. Plus you get the armor

The argument is pretty much done but I'm going to give my two cents anyway.

First of all, I'm a casual gamer. Yes, I enjoy all kinds of games (but mostly RPGs) but I won't go spending time on any game just to compete for a top clan on the ladder or the best guild on the server or anything like that. I play games because they are fun, but the above is no fun to me.

Second, I've played a trial version of WoW. Now, before you all go stating that I know nothing of the game because of it's only been two weeks, you can keep that to yourself because I know that is most likely true. I've only been to starting areas/the followup ones, not any raid or battleground or that kind of jazz. I've only played on a PvE server and have kept PvP off.

I enjoyed WoW (also Warcraft III though it was a bit too fast-paced of a game for me, when it comes to RTS I prefer the Age of Empires series). I'm a roleplayer, so I've been reading through walls of texts on the lore everywhere I could find 'em, retconned or not. I enjoyed the easy-going part of the game - you don't need to do things in this or that exact way like in a singleplayer RPG where you get stuck because you screwed up a puzzle or taken a wrong turn somewhere and ended up on the complete opposite of the gameworld and wonder why you can't find that one NPC. I pretty much skipped all the group quests (RFC- or WC-related, for example) since I preferred to not spend my time waiting for groups but instead see what the game had to offer. Yes, I liked WoW, and it was by no means boring/treadmill to me. The only thing that keeps me from playing it is the monthly fee. When they throw that off or when I have a more steady income I'll probably play WoW. Until then, no.

Necronic said:

Ultimately WoW is a much more casual, and easier to enjoy game. For many people this is great, but for people like myself, Le Quack, and Mav we want something different. We want a game that challenges us by putting us up against the best that other players have to offer and then humbling us when we fall short. Repeatedly.

Anyways, there is room for all kinds, so there :finger:

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Also, this. I really don't see how it's worth getting all worked up about this or that MMO because it's superior. So what if they are not? It's your game (to an extent, anyway) and if someone doesn't like it, then big deal. It's not your family or religion. You don't have to go on a crusade because your game is superior, simply because it's just a game. Although some take it too far and make it a second life, admittedly.

Wahad said:

Also, this. I really don't see how it's worth getting all worked up about this or that MMO because it's superior. So what if they are not? It's your game (to an extent, anyway) and if someone doesn't like it, then big deal. It's not your family or religion. You don't have to go on a crusade because your game is superior, simply because it's just a game. Although some take it too far and make it a second life, admittedly.

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I think its because we all look for validation of our beliefs in other people. We want other people to say that what we like is good, and when people don't we try to convince them, or get mad and try to discredit the other persons beliefs. In things like tihs you really can't discredit another persons beliefs, and who gives a damn if you get validation. Be a self sufficient ego. Not that I won't argue, but honestly I am doing it because I want more people playing this game, and I think that if I can argue in a calm and inviting manner I may get someone to give the game a shot.

Shegokigo said:

Just a heads up, I pvped exclusively with a bit of dragon taming fortune making on the side back on UO. It was fun, I led the most successful PVP guild we had on the server. Truth is though, had I gotten into FPSs before that, I probably wouldn't have glanced at UO again. Why? Because like I said. MMOs are RPGs, they're meant for the PVE aspect and fall flat in the PVP area when compared to other player vs player genres.

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You're wrong. Eve Online is very much a pvp orientated game and it has a very active storyline to it. Merely playing the game is taking part of a role in a greater chain of events.

The reason Shadowbane failed is the same reason Darkfall will. It's not because it's not a great game (it very well could be), or that pvp is for loozerzlolxors, but because there's not a big enough audience for it outside of FPS games like TF2, Halo etc.

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Shadowbane failed because of poor game mechanics and poor game performance. Lag and unplayable framerates sucked in that game. There is a market for huge, mass battlefield pvp, but no company has created a game that allows for that at good framerates while still looking awesome.

Necronic said:

Edit: I should clarify, the game will be a bloodbath compared to WoW. There will be people killing each other left and right, but most people doing the killing will be doing it for a tangible in game goal, for a reason. This is different than greifing, where there is no profit to be had, no territory to claim, nothing but the knowledge that you pissed someone else off. Even the latter will be more tangible, because if you pop someone stupid enough to be walking around in some nice expensive armor all by himself it will feel very satisfying knowing how much you pissed him off, because you really really hurt him in real in game ways. Plus you get the armor

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There doesn't need to be profit or a reason to kill people. If that's the definition of griefing in a mmo, so be it. Open range pvp mmo's are made that way for a reason; to enable pvp.

Example; I log on a toon made for more solo pvp rather than group based. the toon is quite fast on foot, so traversing the world map is fairly quick. i roam around looking for people, anyone, not in my guild, to kill. i find someone, i go after them, kill them if possible. if they have something in their inventory i can loot when they die, cool. if not *shrug* oh well, it was still fun killing them, and i move on to go kill someone else.

it's called pvp for a reason, they fight back. sure it's sometimes someone levels below me, often it's someone near my level (cap) or the same level in which case it's even more of a fair fight. but it's never about monetary gain of items or loot. if i was playing a thief class and jacking people's shit on purpose without really fighting, yea that's annoying but not griefing. and yes darkfall will have a thief style class with stealing stuff, everything from items to mounts to even ships

it's the mindset of total carnage that we love. sure if we wanted instant gratification of killing someone in a game we'd play a FPS like Call of Duty or Counter Strike but we enjoy the RPG factor of leveling a toon, perfecting stats and builds, getting the right items for the job. things you don't really do in FPS cause each FPS (at least on PC) has it's own server and each server is different and different maps rotating. whereas MMO's are a persistent world with static rulesets.

Le Quack said:

Why do you keep asking me to be factual when you are being just as righteously opinionated. You act like everything you say is correct, when its really not.

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Because my opinions are based on a full experience, yours are not. While my experiance is not the truth of everyone, you can't discredit 11.5 million peoples opinions on a game they enjoy. Sorry, that is not how it works.

The only reason WoW has such vast popularity is because it requires large communities to participate in. You need 40+ people to do some raids, and that helps create a community of friends. The relationship between people in a game grows very strongly, and since you have to many friends because of the high amounts of people required, the pull to keep you in the game is very heavy.

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40+ has not been in the game since BC came out, just showing more of the fact you don't actually know what you are talking about.

I think the only reason all these people keep playing is because they want to stay with their friends, and nobody wants to leave their friends behind.

I went into WoW with a group of friends already with me, so we got to do our leveling rather quickly. It wasn't long before we all realized that we were playing an inferior game. We didn't HAVE to play WoW to keep our friendship.

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There is that superiority complex again. WoW is not inferior then many other games out, it is just different then what you enjoy. You will just have to live with that. Also, I play regardless of my friends in the game. Two of them left for 6 months for financial issues, I kept playing. Friends are part of the package, but the game is what drew us in. If community itself was all that, I would still be playing EverQuest.

A shitty first half of the game is still half of a shitty game. You don't know shit about the more open MMOs, so stop talking like an expert.

I believe Yahtzee said, "While a shitty first half of a game makes it a shitty game, a good first half of the game doesn't make it a good game."
He didn't even say that on his review of an MMO, he said it on Condemned 2. (Good Memory, didn't look it up)

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I actually enjoy the begining, as it was what first hooked me on the game. I just understand that the leveling aspect is only 1/4th of the true game, because I have that experience to go back on.

That is interesting you even bring up Yahtzee, since he has done reviews on recent MMOs were he basically has images of himself beating them up with baseball bats with WoW at his side, confirming that he does not really like the genre that much, but that at least WoW in entertaining.

I will still fall back and say the PvP IS boring. The PvP is HEAVILY imbalanced. You say that you can only PvP so long before it gets boring. I.E. THE GAME IS BORING. I pvp'd 24/7 in UO and it wasn't boring. I wasn't even very good at it. The game was just so open (No Set Classes, chose your own skills) it allowed for me to play it my own way.

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UO was a decent game, but you need to realize PVP is only a part of it. I did get bored of PVP in UO, and I got bored of PVE in other games. WoW gives me the perfect mix, and that is really all I need. I don't care if the PVP is "inferior" to some game you play, I disagree due to my playstyle, but that does not mean I am going to call your game shitty.

Have you EVER played UO or Shadowbane (or to a lesser extent EvE)? No, you didn't. You didn't experience any part of the game, so your opinion has less weight than that of mine on WoW.

All your arguments are based on hearsay and that "All pvp is ganking." You have no basis whatsoever to have these opinions other than bias against games like these.

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Actually, I did. I didn't really like them, but here is the difference, listen closely here.

I don't go around telling people that UO, Shadowbane, or EvE are "shit" I say I didn't like the gameplay, the mechanics, or that it just didn't grasp me. I don't call them inferior, I don't rant and rave that people are stupid for playing them.

That is the crux of this arguement. You have the voice of a jealous fanboy more then I ever have given, because unlike you, I don't bash other games just because I don't like them, on the contrary, I want all of them to succeed so that the entire genre can move forward.

That is the only reason I even started countering you rather then Mav, because while Mav at least kept the realm of his opinion as an opinion, you spouted off like you knew the game was shit because you said so, something I hear a lot from people simply jealous that the game they play is not the big popular monster that they want it to be. WoW is a good game, it is not a game you enjoy because the gameplay was not something you like, you can just keep it to that and move on.

I play games for fun, WoW isn't fun to me. I have reasons why. I think you only continue to play WoW instead of a better game because of the relationship tied to the game. WoW comes with so much extra baggages that it KEEPS you sucked in with friends, and not good game content.

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I disagree, the content is fine, fun, and enjoyable. You didn't like it. good for you. Now go off an play what you like then, and stop acting like a baby who didn't get his bottle.

P.S. Merry Christmas.......idiot.

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Proving my point in only three words, thank you for making is so easy.

I think its because we all look for validation of our beliefs in other people. We want other people to say that what we like is good, and when people don't we try to convince them, or get mad and try to discredit the other persons beliefs. In things like tihs you really can't discredit another persons beliefs, and who gives a damn if you get validation. Be a self sufficient ego. Not that I won't argue, but honestly I am doing it because I want more people playing this game, and I think that if I can argue in a calm and inviting manner I may get someone to give the game a shot.

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This is pretty right on most accounts, it is why you have people like PC vs Apple and many other trivial arguments that go nowhere. The crux of my arguments is that WoW is a good game. Is it the best game in existence? No, but it is a "good" game like UO, EverQuest, EvE, but for a different reasons. I chose the game I like because I enjoy it, others should always do the same without getting into "No, mine is better!" acts of QQ.

Ok, I'm sorry I call WoW a trash game(even though it is). But please don't frequent any more darkfall threads.

Olive Branch

Edit: You are kind of a prick for coming into the thread and talking WoW, when its obvious that people interested in Darkfall aren't interested in Wow.

K, that was my last jab.

Sorry =[

Ok, I'm sorry I call WoW a trash game(even though it is). But please don't frequent any more darkfall threads.

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You could have done better then a sarcastic apology, in the end I will say it again.

You are wrong.

But ending on that, I will post in any Darkfall thread I wish, but to talk about Darkfall. Hopefully you can hold your ignorance and we can simply talk about that next time.

P.S. I only came into this thread because you called a game I enjoy "shit". What if I came into this thread and said...

"UO was a peice of crap, it was so bad that I could only play a few levels before the shallow PVP and boring PVE made me quit. Anyone that plays that game and pays for it is just addicted."

I would not say that, but would you really just sit there and be like "Oh, well I guess he is right, since he said so..." You would defend it, and I was simply doing that.

My first post in this thread had nothing to do with WoW at all, only that I worry about Darkfall succeeding, because frankly, evidence with most MMOs are not looking very bright these days (Tabula Rasa shutting down, AoC doing server mergers, WAR losing a lot of fans), it stinks.

Honestly I wasn't even talking about WoW till you brought it up. :toocool:

None the less, olive brach recieved and accepted. I pretty much give a shot to most MMOs at some point or another (inbetween content patches of WoW usually) and will probably give Darkfall a shot. Hope it becomes UO pvp's second coming cause it might draw me from TF2. Might.

Mav said:

There doesn't need to be profit or a reason to kill people. If that's the definition of griefing in a mmo, so be it. Open range pvp mmo's are made that way for a reason; to enable pvp.

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It's griefing regardless of the rules. Killing someone pointlessly in a game is nothing more than causing grief to that person. Killing them to achieve a tangible goal, such as taking their money/loot, capturing an objective or denying your foe the ability to capture an objective is not griefing.

Example; I log on a toon made for more solo pvp rather than group based. the toon is quite fast on foot, so traversing the world map is fairly quick. i roam around looking for people, anyone, not in my guild, to kill. i find someone, i go after them, kill them if possible. if they have something in their inventory i can loot when they die, cool. if not *shrug* oh well, it was still fun killing them, and i move on to go kill someone else.

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If that's the only pvp in the game, it's a shitty game and needs to be scrapped and redesigned. There needs to be a reason for pvp to exist other than to simply kill another player, rather than npc.

A well designed pvp game will have clear objectives for pvp combat. In fact, they should be the primary objectives of the entire game and be intricately linked to the storyline or in-game player driven events in a world where the players run everything and not the npc kingdoms.

Still sounds pretty fun to me. *shrug*

ScytheRexx said:

Ok, I'm sorry I call WoW a trash game(even though it is). But please don't frequent any more darkfall threads.

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You could have done better then a sarcastic apology, in the end I will say it again.

You are wrong.

But ending on that, I will post in any Darkfall thread I wish, but to talk about Darkfall. Hopefully you can hold your ignorance and we can simply talk about that next time.

P.S. I only came into this thread because you called a game I enjoy "shit". What if I came into this thread and said...

"UO was a peice of crap, it was so bad that I could only play a few levels before the shallow PVP and boring PVE made me quit. Anyone that plays that game and pays for it is just addicted."

I would not say that, but would you really just sit there and be like "Oh, well I guess he is right, since he said so..." You would defend it, and I was simply doing that.

My first post in this thread had nothing to do with WoW at all, only that I worry about Darkfall succeeding, because frankly, evidence with most MMOs are not looking very bright these days (Tabula Rasa shutting down, AoC doing server mergers, WAR losing a lot of fans), it stinks.

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Actually to be fair, I can understand him asking the thing about Darkfall threads. I steer clear of any WoW threads really. I think it's a god awful game and there is nothing I can contribute to its discussion. Maybe, consider the same?

Asenka said:

It's griefing regardless of the rules. Killing someone pointlessly in a game is nothing more than causing grief to that person. Killing them to achieve a tangible goal, such as taking their money/loot, capturing an objective or denying your foe the ability to capture an objective is not griefing.

If that's the only pvp in the game, it's a shitty game and needs to be scrapped and redesigned. There needs to be a reason for pvp to exist other than to simply kill another player, rather than npc.

A well designed pvp game will have clear objectives for pvp combat. In fact, they should be the primary objectives of the entire game and be intricately linked to the storyline or in-game player driven events in a world where the players run everything and not the npc kingdoms.

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Yea...you're just hitting a brick wall of ignorance here.

There are no fucking rules in a open pvp game. Aside from actually hacking, cheating or duping or something lame like that, anything is open. You kill, who you want, when you want too. There is no ruleset. There is no "omg you're killing me before i can get back to my grave, waaaah im calling in a GM" bullshit. You fight or you die.

If I want to log into UO or SB right now, roam around and kill someone for no reason, IT'S NOT GRIEFING. Why? THE GAME IS MADE THAT WAY. And even if it weren't made that way? I'd still do it. Why? Cause it's within the power of the player to do so. Guess what, you don't want any kind of chance for a player to kill you? Play on a server, or game, made for PvE.

There are clear goals in some pvp oriented games. Here's a non SB example; Archlord. Each period of X time, the major guilds of a server fight for the status of "Archlord". The winning guild has one person become "Archlord" who basically dominates the entire server. He gets a shit load of extra stuff no one else gets on the server. Items, weapons, pvp bonuses, etc.

A good SB example is; world control. While you don't gain specific items, controlling vast quantities of the player driven world map in terms of player cities and access to high end mobs and items? Yea that's a damn good goal. You are constantly fighting for control over these areas, and whoever can basically take over the most, pretty much wins. Think of it like, Risk, with an fantasy rpg element tossed in. And skill instead of a dice roll.

I could have told you 8 years ago when EQ was huge, pvp is the real endgame content of a mmorpg. After it's all said and done developers are gonna stop making new content for a mmo aside from bug fixes. At that point it's up to the players to generate their own fun. guess what? some mmo's give us this off the bat. yea SB has a fraction of the population WoW does but ya know what? I dont need to do a million quests and grind for months and months on end to reach level cap or get the best items. I can do this within a day if I absolutely have to. Then it's bread and butter time. Gank some noobs.

No one is asking you to play these games or like them. But if you log into one, prepare to die at any given second outside one of the extreme few safe zones. And by prepare I mean, accept it and don't complain.

Mav said:

I think it's a god awful game

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That right there, is the difference between civil conversation and belligerent trolling. "I think" and "It's".

Mav said:

Actually to be fair, I can understand him asking the thing about Darkfall threads. I steer clear of any WoW threads really. I think it's a god awful game and there is nothing I can contribute to its discussion. Maybe, consider the same?

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If I really disliked the game, I would, but while I may not have interest now, I may later if they alter it a bit. The fact is I have yet to actually play it, and so who knows what will happen down the line. I am not going to avoid a thread about a game unless I have zero interest, but at least I don't bad mouth a game I don't like just to make myself feel special.

Shadowbane for instance, is a game that I do avoid talking about since I lost interest in it a long time ago, I even gave you that courtesy by not saying one thing about it in your promotion thread for the game. I am not about badmouthing other MMOs, but I will defend one that I find enjoyable from opinionated insults played off like facts, just as I expect you to do should someone badmouth Shadowbane.

ScytheRexx said:

Mav said:

Actually to be fair, I can understand him asking the thing about Darkfall threads. I steer clear of any WoW threads really. I think it's a god awful game and there is nothing I can contribute to its discussion. Maybe, consider the same?

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If I really disliked the game, I would, but while I may not have interest now, I may later if they alter it a bit. The fact is I have yet to actually play it, and so who knows what will happen down the line. I am not going to avoid a thread about a game unless I have zero interest, but at least I don't bad mouth a game I don't like just to make myself feel special.

Shadowbane for instance, is a game that I do avoid talking about since I lost interest in it a long time ago, I even gave you that courtesy by not saying one thing about it in your promotion thread for the game. I am not about badmouthing other MMOs, but I will defend one that I find enjoyable from opinionated insults played off like facts, just as I expect you to do should someone badmouth Shadowbane.

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Damn, you really are holding a vendetta.

You can't accept my sarcastic appology as a way to save face?

You sadist, you!

Edit: So who wants to give me a summary on Darkfall even though I'm not going to play it anyway due to my belief that paying a large fee for monthly access is for suckers? Is it a grindest? Is there any player skill involved? Could I attempt to kill anyone? Is there content besides attacking randoms to keep me occupied?

Cat said:

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Le Quack said:

You can't accept my sarcastic appology as a way to save face?

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I never had any face to save, nice try though. :teeth:

Cat said:

Edit: So who wants to give me a summary on Darkfall even though I'm not going to play it anyway due to my belief that paying a large fee for monthly access is for suckers? Is it a grindest? Is there any player skill involved? Could I attempt to kill anyone? Is there content besides attacking randoms to keep me occupied?

Click to expand...

it's open range pvp.

meaning there are extremely few, if any, "safe" zones where pvp is not allowed.

you can kill anyone, even people within your own faction, though like UO, you'll get decreased faction sympathy for killing your own faction or allies there of. this simply means you can't use faction cities or related stuff. you'll still be able to use a guild city and guild npc's.

you can have mounts and mount combat.

you can have naval combat, for pirates and other naval stuff. you can launch warfare onto ports with your ships, including player built cities on shorelines.

you can steal just about anything, from anyone, including mounts and ships.

the world map is controlled by the players, the server politics for factions are dictating by the players. you build player cities and wage siege warfare on player built cities.

you drop, i think, everything when you die. you are fully lootable. there are consequences to death, and rewards for killing.

its kill or be killed in a balls to the wall arena of pwnage. no waiting in line, no set zones specifically set aside for pvp where the rest of the world is pve...it's pvp bliss in a bottle basically.

Sounds great so far. So is there going to be no questing/adventuring like in shadowbane?

Mav said:

you can have naval combat, for pirates and other naval stuff. you can launch warfare onto ports with your ships, including player built cities on shorelines.

Click to expand...

This GREATLY interests me. When's it out, how much's it gonna cost, and how many people want to join my "Skrat's Scavengers"?

Cat said:

Sounds great so far. So is there going to be no questing/adventuring like in shadowbane?

Click to expand...

uh, no. and SB had 0 questing and adventuring. you killed mobs to lvl or also pvp'd to lvl, though traditional mob killing is quicker.

you just go out, kill stuff, level up. pvp whenever the situation calls for it or you want to.

no questing, no raiding, none of that.

Skrattybones said:

Mav said:

you can have naval combat, for pirates and other naval stuff. you can launch warfare onto ports with your ships, including player built cities on shorelines.

Click to expand...

This GREATLY interests me. When's it out, how much's it gonna cost, and how many people want to join my "Skrat's Scavengers"?

Click to expand...

Euro launch is at the end of this coming January, with a NA launch to follow at some point. Probably $15 a month.

ScytheRexx said:

Le Quack said:

You can't accept my sarcastic appology as a way to save face?

Click to expand...

I never had any face to save, nice try though. :teeth:

Click to expand...

God you are so fucking self centered. I wanted you to accept my appology so I'd save face. God damn.

I guess you really are a fuckin Sadist. You are so fucking raged you can't even realized I'm trying to bow out of this. Fuck man, lighten up. I did.

Le Quack said:

God you are so fucking self centered. I wanted you to accept my appology so I'd save face. God damn.

I guess you really are a fuckin Sadist. You are so fucking raged you can't even realized I'm trying to bow out of this. Fuck man, lighten up. I did.

Click to expand...

Rage would require actual anger, which I feel none towards anyone in this thread. But I can respect you want to bow you, so I accept the apology.

Now, let this thread continue as it should of, about Darkfall.

Merry Christmas! :heythere:

Le Quack said:

ScytheRexx said:

[quote="Le Quack":2eexzspk]You can't accept my sarcastic appology as a way to save face?

Click to expand...

I never had any face to save, nice try though. :teeth:

Click to expand...

God you are so fucking self centered. I wanted you to accept my appology so I'd save face. God damn.

I guess you really are a fuckin Sadist. You are so fucking raged you can't even realized I'm trying to bow out of this. Fuck man, lighten up. I did.[/quote:2eexzspk]
*slaps Le Quack and makes dad turn the car around.*

Mav said:

Yea...you're just hitting a brick wall of ignorance here.

Click to expand...

Nope, I'd say you're the ignorant one here. A PvP game where there's no point to PvP other than killing another player is a completely worthless and shitty game.

If I want to log into UO or SB right now, roam around and kill someone for no reason, IT'S NOT GRIEFING. Why? THE GAME IS MADE THAT WAY.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but you're wrong. 100% wrong. Killing someone for no reason other than to kill them is griefing. Unless there's a valid, in-game reason to kill someone, you're just pointlessly murdering someone and causing them grief.

And even if it weren't made that way? I'd still do it. Why? Cause it's within the power of the player to do so. Guess what, you don't want any kind of chance for a player to kill you? Play on a server, or game, made for PvE.

Click to expand...

Your ignorance is showing here again. If the game is about PvP, there should be a reason for people to PvP. There should be clear objectives other than simply murdering each other. If I just wanted to kill other players and not AI, I'd go play Death Match FPS games where killing each other is the only goal. MMO's are not meant to be played like a Death Match FPS.

A good SB example is; world control. While you don't gain specific items, controlling vast quantities of the player driven world map in terms of player cities and access to high end mobs and items? Yea that's a damn good goal. You are constantly fighting for control over these areas, and whoever can basically take over the most, pretty much wins. Think of it like, Risk, with an fantasy rpg element tossed in. And skill instead of a dice roll.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that randomly killing people for no reason at all in a random area has no bearing on World Control. If it does, it's a shitty design for a shitty game.

No one is asking you to play these games or like them. But if you log into one, prepare to die at any given second outside one of the extreme few safe zones. And by prepare I mean, accept it and don't complain.

Click to expand...

Once more, you're showing your ignorance. At what point did I ever say I wanted safe zones or safe areas or anything of the sort? Stop attributing bullshit to me, that I didn't say. Get a fucking clue already.

I would love to have a well designed PvP game, where everyone is on equal footing and the goal is simply control. Skill and tactics become the method by which you advance your sides agenda. Not level or gear.

Carry on. I want to see Fanboys, and I figure this is the gamer version of it.

This argument will never be resolved until we all have one of these:

Asenka said:

Sorry, but you're wrong. 100% wrong. Killing someone for no reason other than to kill them is griefing. Unless there's a valid, in-game reason to kill someone, you're just pointlessly murdering someone and causing them grief.

MMO's are not meant to be played like a Death Match FPS.

Click to expand...

Would you care to ask the developers of UO or Shadowbane, about the griefing thing? They will fucking tell you, killing people for no reason at all, is perfectly acceptable in their games.

As for death match style mmo's: Guild Wars. While it's not a true MMORPG, it's a CORPG (competitive online rpg), and it's pvp is quite death match oriented, even completely randomized if you want it to be. It isn't an open world but it certainly fits a death match mmo description.

You can not like these games all you want but calling us griefers in a game built for open pvp..is just lame.

Mav said:

Would you care to ask the developers of UO or Shadowbane, about the griefing thing? They will fucking tell you, killing people for no reason at all, is perfectly acceptable in their games.

Click to expand...

I don't care what the devs say. It's griefing. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

You can not like these games all you want but calling us griefers in a game built for open pvp..is just lame.

Click to expand...

Truth hurts, doesn't it? You're a griefer if you just randomly kill someone for no reason other than to kill them. Doesn't have anything at all to do with the rules or lack thereof. You're a self-admitted griefer. When I PvP, I PvP with a purpose. A reason. I hunt down foes to claim a control point or deny them access to something that would give them an advantage.

Merely killing them when they can just run back and respawn isn't reason enough for me to kill someone.

edit - And once again, you're completely missing the fucking point. God damn... spend less time hating and more time reading and comprehending. I never said I didn't like pvp games you fucking dumbass. Stop dribbling stupidity all over your keyboard. "You can not like these games..." <-- That right there. You're a moron. I never said I didn't like pvp games.

Dev Team Guy #1: Hey guys, let's make a game where anybody can kill anybody, at any time.
Dev Team Guy #2: Man, that is a sweet idea!
Players: NO THATS GRIEFING :waah:


edit:

Dev Team Guy #1: Hey guys, let's make a driving game where you can crash your car for points.
Dev Team Guy #2: Man, that is a sweet idea!
Players: CRASHING IS BAD STOP IT :waah:

Oh look, more dribbling. ::wipes Skrattys chin with a wet nap::

A game can have open range pvp and still have griefing. Griefing is independent of the game itself, unless the devs specifically forbid ganking/camping and other similar means of griefing someone. You're still causing grief to someone if you corpse camp them, kill them when they pose no challenge at all, or continually hunt them down. Once again, it doesn't matter if the game allows it, it's still causing grief to someone. That makes you a griefer if you do it.

It's griefers that ruin open pvp games and it's their behavior that led to RvR combat like in DAoC and the battlegrounds on PvE servers like in WoW. It's not a matter of being able to choose when to PvP, but having fun doing it without worrying about some jackass corpse camping them for no reason other than to cause grief.

edit - I love a fair fight. Even if I lose. That's why I think levels should be eliminated from pvp mmo's. Put skill back into the game and get rid of the level grind. That won't happen though, because then the griefers wouldn't be able to grief and they wouldn't play.

Asenka said:

edit - And once again, you're completely missing the fucking point. God damn... spend less time hating and more time reading and comprehending. I never said I didn't like pvp games you fucking dumbass. Stop dribbling stupidity all over your keyboard. "You can not like these games..." <-- That right there. You're a moron. I never said I didn't like pvp games.

Click to expand...

eh, moral high ground is mine here. i didnt resort to personal insults lol

rofl at the "it's still griefing even if the developers intended the game to be played this way" argument

Just because the game allows you to kill anyone at any time doesn't make it not griefing. It's the circumstances around the kill that define it as griefing or as a legitimate kill. As for the moral high ground, you lost that the moment you admitted to being a lame griefer.

Except you're arguing "griefing" as in the definition created inside of World of Warcraft. It's griefing there, but they've got lots of stuff in place to keep it from happening. When it does happen, it's griefing.

If you report it, maybe you can even get a GM to come help you 'cause you can't stay alive.

Darkfall? You'd be laughed off the servers for crying about a feature.

I used to play gta san andreas multiplayer and even in a game like that there were a ton a whiners crying about people killing them or stealing their riced out car and driving it into the water. I was banned for blowing up a couple of guys in a van that were blocking an area vital to gun dealers just to be douchebags because they said I was griefing.

Asenka said:

Just because the game allows you to kill anyone at any time doesn't make it not griefing. It's the circumstances around the kill that define it as griefing or as a legitimate kill. As for the moral high ground, you lost that the moment you admitted to being a lame griefer.

Click to expand...

Yes, the game allowing you to kill anywhere any time kind of negates any grief factor. Hell when you reach a certain level in Shadowbane the game itself tells you "beware you can now be attack or be attacked by other players"...kinda self explanatory.

and nope, the high ground is looking good up here. i didnt resort calling you a dumbass simply because of your play style or choice of game.

victory is mine!

Asenka said:

Mav said:

Yea...you're just hitting a brick wall of ignorance here.

Click to expand...

Nope, I'd say you're the ignorant one here. A PvP game where there's no point to PvP other than killing another player is a completely worthless and shitty game.

If I want to log into UO or SB right now, roam around and kill someone for no reason, IT'S NOT GRIEFING. Why? THE GAME IS MADE THAT WAY.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but you're wrong. 100% wrong. Killing someone for no reason other than to kill them is griefing. Unless there's a valid, in-game reason to kill someone, you're just pointlessly murdering someone and causing them grief.

[quote:39xlrj0i]And even if it weren't made that way? I'd still do it. Why? Cause it's within the power of the player to do so. Guess what, you don't want any kind of chance for a player to kill you? Play on a server, or game, made for PvE.

Click to expand...

Your ignorance is showing here again. If the game is about PvP, there should be a reason for people to PvP. There should be clear objectives other than simply murdering each other. If I just wanted to kill other players and not AI, I'd go play Death Match FPS games where killing each other is the only goal. MMO's are not meant to be played like a Death Match FPS.

A good SB example is; world control. While you don't gain specific items, controlling vast quantities of the player driven world map in terms of player cities and access to high end mobs and items? Yea that's a damn good goal. You are constantly fighting for control over these areas, and whoever can basically take over the most, pretty much wins. Think of it like, Risk, with an fantasy rpg element tossed in. And skill instead of a dice roll.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that randomly killing people for no reason at all in a random area has no bearing on World Control. If it does, it's a shitty design for a shitty game.

No one is asking you to play these games or like them. But if you log into one, prepare to die at any given second outside one of the extreme few safe zones. And by prepare I mean, accept it and don't complain.

Click to expand...

Once more, you're showing your ignorance. At what point did I ever say I wanted safe zones or safe areas or anything of the sort? Stop attributing bullshit to me, that I didn't say. Get a fucking clue already.

I would love to have a well designed PvP game, where everyone is on equal footing and the goal is simply control. Skill and tactics become the method by which you advance your sides agenda. Not level or gear.[/quote:39xlrj0i]

WoW Fanboy. This is a darkfall thread!

Go waste some more of your life. =x

Just because the game allows you to kill anyone at any time doesn't make it not griefing. It's the circumstances around the kill that define it as griefing or as a legitimate kill. As for the moral high ground, you lost that the moment you admitted to being a lame griefer.

Click to expand...

Darkfall allows for full looting options. How about killing somebody to take all their stuff? Thats for an advantage.

Hey fucktards. Learn to fucking read you cockbites.

This isn't about WoW. This isn't about Darkfall. This isn't about fucking Shadowbane.

It's about PvP mechanics, period. That's it you god damned fucking morons.

It doesn't matter if the gorram devs created the game and allow you to kill anyone at any time. It's still griefing if you do that. Regardless of what fucking game it is. Regardless of what the devs say. If you corpse camp someone, if you kill someone and steal their shit, if you repeatedly hunt them down and they're no threat to you... you're griefing.

Again, it doesn't matter which fucking game you're playing. You're griefing. If you can open your eyes and fucking ignore the picture and text in my sig, maybe you'd find two brain cells to rub together and have that spark of comprehension.

I dub Ass-enka the new Superking!



Seriously, I'm more into, better at, and have been playing WoW longer than you and I dont' have Blizzard's dick as far up my ass as you apparantly do. Though, reading your posts are great for a laugh!

"If the people who make the game design it so their players can kill each other all the time, whenever they want, it's a mistake and they should change it cause that's griefing and even though they designed like that on purpose they made a mistake."

Shegokigo said:

Seriously, I'm more into, better at, and have been playing WoW longer than you and I dont' have Blizzard's dick as far up my ass as you apparantly do. Though, reading your posts are great for a laugh!

Click to expand...

God damn you're really fucking ignorant and clueless. Where the hell do you see me praising Blizzard for PvP? No where you lackwit. I actually think Blizzards implementation of PvP in a PvE game to be completely and fucking retarded.

Once again, and this is the last time I'm going to repeat this: This isn't about WoW. This isn't about Darkfall. This isn't about Shadowbane or any other fucking game. I am only debating PvP period. No specific game. Just PvP. Either get that through your fucking thick skull, or shut the fuck up because if you think I'm talking about any game in particular... you're fucking stupid.

Lock please? :zombie:

Asenka said:

God damn you're really fucking ignorant and clueless. Where the hell do you see me praising Blizzard? No where you lackwit. I actually think Blizzards implementation of PvP in a PvE game to be completely and fucking retarded.

Once again, and this is the last time I'm going to repeat this: This isn't about WoW. This isn't about Darkfall. This isn't about Shadowbane or any other fucking game. I am only debating PvP period. No specific game. Just PvP. Either get that through your fucking thick skull, or shut the fuck up because if you think I'm talking about any game in particular... you're fucking stupid.

Click to expand...

:lol:
Pure gold!

Whatever. If you can't come up with a response other than a stupid picture, I win.

Asenka said:

Whatever. If you can't come up with a response other than a stupid picture, I win.

Click to expand...

Point proven. And by that, I mean you proved how fucking retarded you are.

Asenka said:

Point proven. And by that, I mean you proved how fucking retarded you are.

Click to expand...

Good god keep them coming! You're so amazing! So forceful and adamant! I'm swooning!

WoW Askenka, you must have some deep repressed memories of not getting your way as a child.

Le Quack said:

WoW Askenka, you must have some deep repressed memories of not getting your way as a child.

Click to expand...

Shh! I had already defused him, we can continue rational conversation without interruption now! :tear:

Asenka said:

I am only debating PvP period. No specific game. Just PvP.

Click to expand...

PvP -- "Player versus Player". Wherein players have the ability to fight and kill each other in the confines of their game world of choice. It's not "Player versus Player except sometimes they're a big meanie and it's griefing".

Definition #3 from Urban Dictionary (cited because no other ones would have a definition for PvP)

PvP
A player of a game fighting against another player.
Any number of people can participate in PvP, and it does not have to be a fair situation.

The other definitions are similar, and none mention people being big meanies.

How in God's great toenails did this turn into a flame war? It's about Darkfall! FFS! I may play a beta but I doubt I'm the type they are looking for. I think Askenka is also not their target audience. And Mav probably is. I fail to see what the issue is.

Edrondol said:

How in God's great toenails did this turn into a flame war? It's about Darkfall! FFS! I may play a beta but I doubt I'm the type they are looking for. I think Askenka is also not their target audience. And Mav probably is. I fail to see what the issue is.

Click to expand...

Superking wanted to talk, so things got messy. But it's been handled. Nothing to see here but Darkfall conversation.

I'm hella looking forward to sneaking around in tall grass and killing people.

My favorite part of PvP is stalking, and from what they say, stalking is going to be a skill learned by the player, not an actual button that you click and you go invisable.

Edrondol said:

How in God's great toenails did this turn into a flame war? It's about Darkfall! FFS! I may play a beta but I doubt I'm the type they are looking for. I think Askenka is also not their target audience. And Mav probably is. I fail to see what the issue is.

Click to expand...

apparently i'm a griefer despite the fact a game is built specifically with the mechanics there to allow such things.

how a game can have griefing when the gods damn developers SPECIFICALLY MADE IT THAT WAY is beyond me.

i think Askenka has some bad experiences with open range pvp mmo's in the past where someone did something he considered griefing. it's a common thing, i see it in SB at times. new player starts out, eager to play, loves pvp, then finds out 90% of the world map isn't safe and gets killed at lvl 24 by a lvl 75 and QQ's. Maybe Askenka had a similar experience in some game and thats why he's so angry at us "griefers" (aka pvpers) and also why he loves WoW so much.

it really doesn't get much simpler than the fact that when a guy programming a game, decides "Hmmm I am going to put in some features that let people kill others in ways they might call "griefing", the pvp in the game is NOT griefing, it's normal pvp.

and the funny part? the hilarious part?

i play a fucking priest, who has no offensive capabilities

Been playing WoW since beta, ~150 total days /played, currently playing on a pve server...
And this game looks fucking brilliant.

edit: and by looks, I mean premise /=/ outcome

Mav, you're a griefer. Doesn't matter what the game allows. Corpse camping someone, that's causing them grief. How many fucking times do I have to say that? Are you that fucking retarded? It does not matter if the rules allow it. You're still causing grief.

Seriously, are you that fucking dumb? It doesn't have anything to do with the rules of the game at all. Killing someone that poses no threat to you repeatedly? Griefing. Corpse camping someone? Griefing. Ganking someone over and over in a large group? Griefing.

Yes, the rules allow that to happen. So what? It still means you're a griefer and you'll gain a reputation as a griefer and you'll find your characters repeatedly ganked, corpse camped, and fucked around with because of it.

Asenka said:

Mav, you're a griefer. etc.

Click to expand...

Holycrapdoesitmatter?

Asenka said:

you'll gain a reputation as a griefer and you'll find your characters repeatedly ganked, corpse camped, and fucked around with because of it.

Click to expand...

that is the entire point behind some of the pvp mmo's i play rofl

if people "griefed" me in Shadowbane and i went and cried about it like you're QQ'ing here? i'd be the laughing stock of the fucking game

you are supposed to play this way in some games, it is the entire purpose in some games, despite what you think. come log into SB sometime, you'll see ENTIRE SERVERS DOING THIS

Mav said:

if people "griefed" me in Shadowbane and i went and cried about it like you're QQ'ing here? i'd be the laughing stock of the fucking game

Click to expand...

"Holycrapdoesitmatter?" to you too!

Shawnacy said:

Mav said:

if people "griefed" me in Shadowbane and i went and cried about it like you're QQ'ing here? i'd be the laughing stock of the fucking game

Click to expand...

"Holycrapdoesitmatter?" to you too!

Click to expand...

sorry shawn, i just cant stand carebears....theres games for them and games for people like me

Mav said:

Shawnacy said:

Mav said:

if people "griefed" me in Shadowbane and i went and cried about it like you're QQ'ing here? i'd be the laughing stock of the fucking game

Click to expand...

"Holycrapdoesitmatter?" to you too!

Click to expand...

sorry shawn, i just cant stand carebears....theres games for them and games for people like me

Click to expand...

I was with ya right up until that post, Mav. Playing RP WoW does not make Ask better or less able than you, nor does your playing "OMFG Hardcore!" games make you any better. They are different game styles. I play more like Ask and would HATE to meet you in a game! But I'm not going to berate you for it.

And Ask...dial it down, dude! It's a game! Mav will play it his way and your complaining will only make him giggle more when he sticks a shiv into your pancreas. (In the game, of course.)

You say griefer, he says playing it the way it's meant to be played. You both know you'll never agree so why continue? Let them talk about their game!

I play Eve Online. I hunt down pirates and partake in corp wars. I am far from a carebear you dumbass. Open range pvp is fine, as long as there's a reason for hunting other players. Pointless killing for no reason, that's just shitty game design and why games like those fail to attract a larger playerbase than the maladjusted morons that get their jollies that way.

In fact, I'd say you're more of a carebear than I am, since in Eve... you lose your ship and modules and implants if you get blown up and podded. Hundreds of billions of isk (in game currency) lost in minutes if you screw up and go the wrong way or get caught where you shouldn't be. Not to mention, if you get podded and don't have a clone ready... you can lose hundreds of hours or tens of days of real life training time when you clone and lose millions of skill points.

So keep playing your carebear pvp game where dying doesn't matter so much.

Asenka said:

I play Eve Online. I hunt down pirates and partake in corp wars. I am far from a carebear you dumbass. Open range pvp is fine, as long as there's a reason for hunting other players. Pointless killing for no reason, that's just shitty game design and why games like those fail to attract a larger playerbase than the maladjusted morons that get their jollies that way.

In fact, I'd say you're more of a carebear than I am, since in Eve... you lose your ship and modules and implants if you get blown up and podded. Hundreds of billions of isk (in game currency) lost in minutes if you screw up and go the wrong way or get caught where you shouldn't be. Not to mention, if you get podded and don't have a clone ready... you can lose hundreds of hours or tens of days of real life training time when you clone and lose millions of skill points.

So keep playing your carebear pvp game where dying doesn't matter so much.

Click to expand...

oh you mean that game you pay, not to play? log in, set a skill to level up, then basically sit around and do nothing for days while you wait for that skill to level? often times a skill you need in order to fly your next level ship? rofl...yea they may have sped this up over the years but when i played Eve a few years ago not only did you pay to "play" it you paid to sit around and do jack shit all the time while you waited for shit to finish. And no, going to mine asteroids while I wait for my skills to level up is not what I'd consider fun. 6 months to a year to become pvp viable in a decent ship with proper upgrades? fuck, that.

the one offensive class i play in SB has risk of losing items. i have to take off my weapons on my scout to enchant them, which means putting them in my inventory while i buff them. at this point if i'm not paying attention a good theif can nab them right off me, or kill me quick enough that i don't double click'em fast enough. and they aren't cheap to replace.

the difference? i dont care if i lose them. it's part of the game. if someone jacks me randomly, kudos. ya got me. enjoy the gear, i'll see ya out somewheres again at some point. I don't QQ over it.

As for shitty games designed this way, uh no? You cannot use WoW as a comparison, as A) the 11 million is a WORLD wide number. I never play on international servers so I only follow American numbers for mmo population figures. And B) UO yet again. It wasn't the first MMORPG, so let's not use the EQ example to say "omg when EQ came out people flooded to it". UO was die hard pvp on steriods. It had great numbers and STILL has tons of people playing it so much that they completely revamped the client with more modern graphics. Yea, the franchise kinda went to shit after UO but still it proves a hardcore pvp mmo can succeed. As Darkfall will I believe.

If you can't handle your pixels being taken away from you or dying, stick to games that let you pixel protect.

I apologize if this was already said and answered, but I stopped reading when it turned into a flame war.

I would be all OVER this game if it has two things.

1: a really easy-to-get-to level/skill cap. I don't want to be slaughtered like a sheep while leveling for three months. I'll put up with it for two weeks, maybe more if PvE is all it's cracked up to be. If I get killed in a fair fight, that's totally different, but getting me and my leafblade jumped by a level 300,000 wizard with OMFGthegreatestmagicmissilespellever is simply not fun.

2: All weapons and equipment being pretty much the same. I would get a longsword you crafted yourself being a little better than something you buy at a vendor, but I don't want it going farther than that. I have limited time online, and I don't want to spend it doing a questline for that nice magic sword you get at the end (In WoW terms, a green or blue sword), and then have it taken away from me by one guy with a bow who got the jump on me. I put a few hours into that; I don't want it taken away in sixty seconds. Considering that you have to spend (according to the review) an hour and a half fishing to get spell components, I don't think this is likely.

IF these are the case, then I would love this game! I'd saddle up, grab some lances, a cavalry saber, and a shortbow, and ride off into enemy territory to see how deep I can get, killing as I go. When I die, no big deal, I'll just get back to town, buy me some more gear, and ride on back into the breach.

This conversation has taken a turn for the lulz of epic proportions.

Why is Superking *ahem* I mean Asenka even still posting in here? Why does he think anyone wants to converse with him about his subject? (Other than Mav irking him on). This thread is now (again) about Darkfall.

Is it still in NDA? Any screenies available yet? What about race choices?

Mav said:

oh you mean that game you pay, not to play? log in, set a skill to level up, then basically sit around and do nothing for days while you wait for that skill to level?

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Wrong. You go out and fly the ship you have, running missions for reputation, isk, or do mining. Maybe try out a little can flipping piracy if you're bold enough.

yea they may have sped this up over the years but when i played Eve a few years ago not only did you pay to "play" it you paid to sit around and do jack shit all the time while you waited for shit to finish. And no, going to mine asteroids while I wait for my skills to level up is not what I'd consider fun. 6 months to a year to become pvp viable in a decent ship with proper upgrades? fuck, that.

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You can be a pvp combat viable tackler in less than a month. You can be in a tech 1 battlecruiser in a couple months. You shouldn't fly ships you can't afford to lose anyway.

the one offensive class i play in SB has risk of losing items. i have to take off my weapons on my scout to enchant them, which means putting them in my inventory while i buff them. at this point if i'm not paying attention a good theif can nab them right off me, or kill me quick enough that i don't double click'em fast enough. and they aren't cheap to replace.

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Oh noes! You might lose your weapons... if a very specific set of circumstances happens. Wow, what a carebear game that is. Didn't shadowbane used to be full looting of all items, even equipped? Guess they made the game less hardcore for the whiners. In Eve... you lose everything. So yeah, Shadowbane is more carebear than Eve.

As for shitty games designed this way, uh no? You cannot use WoW as a comparison, as A) the 11 million is a WORLD wide number.

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I'm not using WoW as a comparison. Only a fucking idiot uses WoW as a population comparison. Eve is a niche pvp/scifi genre game and it's very successful in it's chosen market. That makes it a good game with good design. There's reasons for hunting people down, other than griefing.

If you can't handle your pixels being taken away from you or dying, stick to games that let you pixel protect.

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Uh... hello you fucking moron. I play Eve Online where my pixels are in danger of being blown to fucking stardust. Stop trying to act like I'm some carebear. God damned dumbass.

WOOOOOOOOO :aaahhh:

Yep, looking forward to it, I'll probably get it soon after the release depending on what people say about it.

Docseverin said:

WOOOOOOOOO :aaahhh:

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Pants don't go on your head!

I have a question that might have been asked when Captain Hilarity started his flame war. I haven't really been paying attention since then.

What's the recovery time between getting killed and having all your items stolen and being able to get back into the game? What I mean is, you get up and are naked. Assuming no corpse camping, how much time would it take to be able to get some gold and items and go right back into pvp?

I love how when you're losing the arguement you shift from using WoW as your comparison, to Eve.

Can't you just simply buy clone insurance in Eve, so that even if your pod dies, your toon isn't 100% fucked, just like 90%? And even if you're in danger, you can eject your pod from your ship and try to make a last ditch getaway? Yea, that's not carebear at all "you're fucked, lets give you one more chance to run forrest run!"

If you want a better lootable comparison than SB since you wanna hate on my mmo as well, how about Necron 2? Little known cyberpunk mmo, FPS combat, you have one single protection "slot" for stuff you can't drop. Past that, anything is game. What's that, your caster has several high end crafted spells you don't wanna lose? You can only protect one from never dropping, the rest are fair game when you die. Oh and that grave you also left behind? It can be "hacked" (an actual ingame skill, not real hacking) so anything else in the grave, can be taken if the player is specced in high enough hacking. You know how many times I dropped a high end weapon or spell in that game? A fuck ton. Did I bitch? NO. It made me mad a few times, but ya know I grinded up the cash, bought the ingredients and crafted a new one. So don't bitch at me about carebear bullshit full lootablility in shadowbane cause Darkfall is gonna be 100% lootable, and i'll be jacking as much free shit as i can.

ROFL @ the "you can be pvp viable in 1 month" I can be pvp viable in other games inside a DAY. cap level, top end gear, etc of course being in a good guild helps but even so solo leveling with no one gearing me, i can reach a much farther level in a day in some pvp mmos than I can in Eve, or WoW.

As for that one situation, take that and multiply it x10. Oh look, that rare mob spawned with a great item? There's probably 20 guys running to go kill it, you grab it and suddenly gotta fight off people, make an escape, something, to get away with that item. Or how about attempting some good old fashioned farming for leet items, which is still needed time to time though rarely, all that loot you picked up is open to be jacked. Yea anything you're wearing isn't lootable unless it's in your inventory but guess what, this isn't Darkfall I'm talking about, it's SB. Darkfall is just the next natural progression of ful looting.

You wanna jack Eve off like it's got the biggest dick amongst MMO's? Sure it's got the hardcore element there, with a few carebear elements tossed in. Make Eve take a FUCK LOAD less time to hit level cap and get gear, it'd be the perfect space based pvp mmo. Until it takes as long as it does in UO/SB/DF to reach cap with good gear, it's not worth the time in my opinion.

Oh and if you really wanna talk hardcore, here's the ace to trump your spades; Diablo 2 Hardcore PvP. Death = character is gone forever, all gear, every last piece. Those of us with level 99 HC characters who ever got bit by a piece of lag during combat can attest to how fucking insanely tough and literally, hardcore, this pvp was. I'm sure you'll be the type QQ'ing if Diablo 3 includes a similar setup.

Rare photo of Asenka while posting in this thread below.
http://tinyurl.com/6z97lx

Shegokigo said:

Rare photo of Asenka while posting in this thread below.
http://tinyurl.com/6z97lx

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fucking, win. think it's safe to say trish wins this thread

Mav said:

I love how when you're losing the arguement you shift from using WoW as your comparison, to Eve.

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I never used WoW as any part of any PvP debate, other than to say that WoW's implementation of PvP sucks ass. I shifted to Eve to point out that I'm not a carebear like you tried to insinuate.

Can't you just simply buy clone insurance in Eve, so that even if your pod dies, your toon isn't 100% fucked, just like 90%? And even if you're in danger, you can eject your pod from your ship and try to make a last ditch getaway? Yea, that's not carebear at all "you're fucked, lets give you one more chance to run forrest run!"

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Yes, you can eject. So what? You still lost your ship and any cargo inside the ship, which could be worth days or even months worth of mission running/pirate hunting. You're just a fucking pussy that can't handle real defeat, which is why you play games like Shadowbane that allow you to keep your gear or allow you to farm it back rather quickly. Losing your ship in Eve is like dying in Shadowbane and losing your inventory.

You wanna jack Eve off like it's got the biggest dick amongst MMO's? Sure it's got the hardcore element there, with a few carebear elements tossed in. Make Eve take a FUCK LOAD less time to hit level cap and get gear, it'd be the perfect space based pvp mmo. Until it takes as long as it does in UO/SB/DF to reach cap with good gear, it's not worth the time in my opinion.

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There is no level cap in Eve Online. Your ignorance is showing, again. It would take well over twenty years to train every single skill to max rank in Eve. The point of Eve's skill system is to force you to pick and choose, carefully, what style of ship you want to specialize in. Once you've reached the pinnacle of the skills for that style of ship, you can start to branch out to become a more rounded character that can adapt to a changing battlefield.

There's no level cap in Eve, because there isn't supposed to be one. It's an open ended, sandbox empire building game. It requires a commitment to the game to acquire the "end game" cap ship skills and a dedication towards maintaining a steady flow of income to support your operations. Once you've reached the "level cap" for the ship you normally fly, you're not stuck playing that same ship. That would be like playing a rogue in WoW and reaching lvl 80 and well... you're a rogue. In Eve, you're a tackler... then you reach "lvl 80 tackler" and guess what... you're not stuck as a tackler. You can take other skills and branch out into other combat roles.

Eve Online is one of the better designed pvp games out on the market. It's flaws are in POS Warfare, Cap Ships, and fleet warfare latency. They've made some major changes recently though and I've been taking a break from Eve to play WoW... so I'm not sure what the changes have done to alter the ship balance in fleet warfare and the abundance of cap ships. Hopefully they've made mixed fleets more viable and reduced the power of cap ship fleets just cyno'ing in and tearing the shit out of everything. Although cyno jammers went a long way towards preventing that from happening every battle.

I'm glad people like you don't play Eve, because you would shit up the game.

"Wah wah wah... why can't I fly a battleship yet? I just bought the game yesterday? *whine whine whine*" <-- Mav

I liked when that one giant Corp spent 6 months trying to get the Titan or whatever, finally got it, and then that other huge corp came in and blew it up.

Now THAT is PvP.

Asenka said:

I'm glad people like you don't play Eve, because you would shit up the game.

"Wah wah wah... why can't I fly a battleship yet? I just bought the game yesterday? *whine whine whine*" <-- Mav

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i'm guessing you're the kinda guy that hated how games like guildwars let you jump right in at lvl cap without ever playing the game and still being pvp viable? rofl

a real pvp mmo should be fast paced, it should be fast leveling, fast gear getting, and quick access to pvp at any time. the days of grinding in pvp mmo's is just tiresome. i love space and science fiction but the wait time to pvp in Eve is atrocious at best.

i grow tired of watching you beat your head against a wall of ignorance. the moment you say despite what the developers mean for a game to be it's still griefing is wrong and the fact that you just keep on boiling it down to personal insults is fucking epically hilarious. seriously dude, take the stick out of your ass at some point before you choke on it.

Asenka said:

:waah: :waah:

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To those wishing to respond to his post.

Mav said:

a real pvp mmo should be fast paced, it should be fast leveling . . .

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That rather suggests that every level but the highest is unimportant, which leads me to the conclusion that fast leveling is simply pointless. And that would mean that a real pvp mmo shouldn't have leveling.

I could get on board a game like that.

Gruebeard said:

Mav said:

a real pvp mmo should be fast paced, it should be fast leveling . . .

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That rather suggests that every level but the highest is unimportant, which leads me to the conclusion that fast leveling is simply pointless. And that would mean that a real pvp mmo shouldn't have leveling.

I could get on board a game like that.

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agreed. if you check out the forums at mmorpg.com a mmorpg with no "levels" has been something people would be willing to get behind, something to just into, pvp, do your character up as you want in terms of items, gear, skills or abilities etc and charge into battle.

kind of like guild wars tried to be, but without any grinding for all the needed powers and item upgrades nor levels.

Mav said:

agreed. if you check out the forums at mmorpg.com a mmorpg with no "levels" has been something people would be willing to get behind, something to just into, pvp, do your character up as you want in terms of items, gear, skills or abilities etc and charge into battle.

kind of like guild wars tried to be, but without any grinding for all the needed powers and item upgrades nor levels.

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*cough* FPS *cough* :slywink:

Shegokigo said:

Mav said:

agreed. if you check out the forums at mmorpg.com a mmorpg with no "levels" has been something people would be willing to get behind, something to just into, pvp, do your character up as you want in terms of items, gear, skills or abilities etc and charge into battle.

kind of like guild wars tried to be, but without any grinding for all the needed powers and item upgrades nor levels.

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*cough* FPS *cough* :slywink:

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yea but how many FPS have a fantasy backdrop and theme? which is sadly, what most mmo's are, fantasy based.

Mav said:

yea but how many FPS have a fantasy backdrop and theme? which is sadly, what most mmo's are, fantasy based.

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Oh no doubt there should be. I'm just saying the MMO world just isn't suited for the type of gameplay you describe.

Shegokigo said:

Mav said:

yea but how many FPS have a fantasy backdrop and theme? which is sadly, what most mmo's are, fantasy based.

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Oh no doubt there should be. I'm just saying the MMO world just isn't suited for the type of gameplay you describe.

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some are pretty close. guild wars had the right-off-the-bat pvp but you still had to grind and pve a ton to get all the spells and items. sb's is pretty damn quick but you still need a few handfuls of rare resources for crafting leet gear, darkfall looks to be the closest we'll get to it

Blizzard holds arena tournaments which are pretty frigging close to that, actually. You start at level cap, build your skill tree the way you want, and you spawn with thousands of gold. Every single vendor is right there, all with practically every piece of gear you want/need, and then you do arenas.

It'd be perfect if WoW PvP didn't consist of "lol my class kills ur class" and "hide behind the pillarz."

Mav said:

i'm guessing you're the kinda guy that hated how games like guildwars let you jump right in at lvl cap without ever playing the game and still being pvp viable? rofl

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GuildWars was designed that way. Eve wasn't. You're suggesting that Eve should be changed. You're a moron. Eve isn't going to change. It's that way for a reason. It's not an FPS game in space. It's an RPG in space. Role-playing games are about a steady increase of power over time played.

a real pvp mmo should be fast paced, it should be fast leveling, fast gear getting, and quick access to pvp at any time. the days of grinding in pvp mmo's is just tiresome. i love space and science fiction but the wait time to pvp in Eve is atrocious at best.

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Eve isn't for you jackass. It's not for the attention span deprived ritalin kids that want instant gratification. It's an RPG, not an FPS. Get over it. The game is not for you.

i grow tired of watching you beat your head against a wall of ignorance. the moment you say despite what the developers mean for a game to be it's still griefing is wrong...

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You're the ignorant one here. Griefing is griefing. It doesn't fucking matter what the rules in the game are. It's still griefing. The difference between an open range pvp game and a game like WoW where PvP is only in certain areas, is that griefing is sanctioned in one game and forbidden in the other.

That's the fucking point your two brain cells in that thick skull keep failing to comprehend. Causing grief is separate from the rules. The only difference is that in one game, you can report the griefer for breaking the rules and you have to take the initiative in the other game.

Asenka said:

Darkfall isn't for me jackass.

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ftfy

Asenka said:

Role-playing games are about a steady increase of power over time played.

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I know this is going to sound crazy, but I always thought role-playing games were about...role-playing?

Mav said:

Shegokigo said:

Mav said:

agreed. if you check out the forums at mmorpg.com a mmorpg with no "levels" has been something people would be willing to get behind, something to just into, pvp, do your character up as you want in terms of items, gear, skills or abilities etc and charge into battle.

kind of like guild wars tried to be, but without any grinding for all the needed powers and item upgrades nor levels.

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*cough* FPS *cough* :slywink:

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yea but how many FPS have a fantasy backdrop and theme? which is sadly, what most mmo's are, fantasy based.

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There's a Might and Magic FPS out there, I forgot then ame...:-P

Vrii said:

Asenka said:

Role-playing games are about a steady increase of power over time played.

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I know this is going to sound crazy, but I always thought role-playing games were about...role-playing?

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I still rather prefer the roll-playing. aranoid:

Asenka said:

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Asenka said:

:rcain:

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Asenka said:

:blargh:

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Well said! Well said!

Bubble181 said:

There's a Might and Magic FPS out there, I forgot then ame...:-P

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Dark Messiah. Great little game. Basically a linear Oblivion with better combat.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I always thought role-playing games were about...role-playing?

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I'm talking about RPG's as in the online/computer sense. They're less about roleplaying. When I want to roleplay, I play D&D with my friends in the living room on soft, comfy couches. When I want to play an "RPG", as the computer game industry has defined it, I play games like EQ2, WoW, and such. They'd more aptly be described as Adventure Games instead of RPG's.

Asenka said:

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I always thought role-playing games were about...role-playing?

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I'm talking about RPG's as in the online/computer sense. They're less about roleplaying. When I want to roleplay, I play D&D with my friends in the living room on soft, comfy couches. When I want to play an "RPG", as the computer game industry has defined it, I play games like EQ2, WoW, and such. They'd more aptly be described as Adventure Games instead of RPG's.

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I think they'd get put under "Piece of trash games that people with no taste buy."

What do you think about that?!

Le Quack said:

Asenka said:

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I always thought role-playing games were about...role-playing?

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I'm talking about RPG's as in the online/computer sense. They're less about roleplaying. When I want to roleplay, I play D&D with my friends in the living room on soft, comfy couches. When I want to play an "RPG", as the computer game industry has defined it, I play games like EQ2, WoW, and such. They'd more aptly be described as Adventure Games instead of RPG's.

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I think they'd get put under "Piece of trash games that people with no taste buy."

What do you think about that?!

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I think people should stop getting so worked up over a game, trash or not.

my game is better than your game raaaargh

Seriously, this is just five pages of "no my game is better" over and over again.
Are you guys really that nerdy.

superking said:

Seriously, this is just five pages of "no my game is better" over and over again.
Are you guys really that nerdy.

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Even though there are no elections going on right now we still gotta argue about something silly. Apparently it's video games.

It's more about Mav being a griefer and not accepting it.

Skrattybones said:

Blizzard holds arena tournaments which are pretty frigging close to that, actually. You start at level cap, build your skill tree the way you want, and you spawn with thousands of gold. Every single vendor is right there, all with practically every piece of gear you want/need, and then you do arenas.

It'd be perfect if WoW PvP didn't consist of "lol my class kills ur class" and "hide behind the pillarz."

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yea but those are tourney's, if that was a default option for every day pvp, it'd be more awesome. not quite open range but as close as blizzard could probably give you.

Asenka said:

It's more about Mav being a griefer and not accepting it.

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Yes because the fact I don't want to spend a year or so becoming l33t in an MMO and I want pvp when I want it as I want it, I'm a griefer.

Well guess the fuck what; there are tons of players like me. Thousands of us online who share this similar game playing experience we like. We're all griefers though aren't we?

That's ok with us. We're cool with it. You might not be but we don't care if you are or aren't. QQ over it all you want. Go enjoy your WoW and your Eve, we'll stick with UO/SB/DF. We'll wtfpwn some noobs, pwnerer style. We have uber micro skillz, you don't.

But thanks for the laughs, this is definitely one of the funniest things I've ever read in our community. Maybe one day you'll get those panties out of your ass and see it's just a game dude, and I didn't have to resort to calling you a complete and utter moron, dumbass or any other things your fingers decided were cool that your brain should have noticed, weren't.

MOD EDIT: Let's leave the mothers out of this, shall we?
-NR

Mav said:

Asenka said:

It's more about Mav being a griefer and not accepting it.

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Yes because the fact I don't want to spend a year or so becoming l33t in an MMO and I want pvp when I want it as I want it, I'm a griefer.

Well guess the fuck what; there are tons of players like me. Thousands of us online who share this similar game playing experience we like. We're all griefers though aren't we?

That's ok with us. We're cool with it. You might not be but we don't care if you are or aren't. QQ over it all you want. Go enjoy your WoW and your Eve, we'll stick with UO/SB/DF. We'll wtfpwn some noobs, pwnerer style. We have uber micro skillz, you don't.

But thanks for the laughs, this is definitely one of the funniest things I've ever read in our community. Maybe one day you'll get those panties out of your ass and see it's just a game dude, and I didn't have to resort to calling you a complete and utter moron, dumbass or any other things your fingers decided were cool that your brain should have noticed, weren't.

I'd say genetics were to play a part in this Asenka, but the only reason you are even alive today is because your mother could spit accurately between her legs.

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Took me a while to figure this one out.

Mav said:

*snipped lewd mother insult*

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Aaaand we're done. Move along everyone, nothing to see here.

My beautiful darkfall thread, torn to shit. No one actually discussing the game. No one even really discussing anything. Just a massive flamewar. You blew it up! Damn you! Damn you all to hell!



Can OPs request a lock?

PM a mod.

Allen said:

PM a mod.

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Meh, too lazy, plus it will be kind of hypocritical when I start another Darkfall thread later this month.

Nothing hypocritical about wanting to start a new thread when one flame war shut down the old one. Next time, just use the first post to tell Asenka to stay out.

Allen said:

Nothing hypocritical about wanting to start a new thread when one flame war shut down the old one. Next time, just use the first post to tell Asenka to stay out.

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I don't want to start anything by saying this, but I really don't think Asenka was the problem here. It was definitely a group effort.

Necronic said:

Allen said:

Nothing hypocritical about wanting to start a new thread when one flame war shut down the old one. Next time, just use the first post to tell Asenka to stay out.

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I don't want to start anything by saying this, but I really don't think Asenka was the problem here. It was definitely a group effort.

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I apologize for, dragging it on. Just people like Asenka...they just bring it out of me. While I can't stand their playstyle I also really fucking hate when they label the rest of us as something we aren't.

Mav said:

I also really fucking hate when they label the rest of us as something we aren't.

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The solution to that is quite simple: Grief them. aranoid:

We were all problems definitely. Shego and Le Quack brought up their points in the beginning probably for fun. Once Asenka went on his rampage, it was fun to just watch both sides of the conflict. How about just starting a Darkfall thread and saying discussion about pvp and looting is for another thread?

One of the things mentioned that I am interested to see how it plays out is the comparison to EvE PvP. In EvE the PvP is brutal, but there is very little of the traditional griefing you would find in a game like WoW (my only other frame of reference). Due to the potential risks of entering into a battle you don't do it unless the reward matches, and in general the reward of just beating someone usually is not enough to risk a 50 mil isk ship.

Depending on how Darkfall works, the same could be true here. One thing I am excited about is the fact that you can't tell another persons level (the term doesn't even really mean anything in darkfall), so you have to determine if you can beat someone just based on their appearance. On the one hand it could be a newbie twink in some expensive gear (aka kill me now please) or it could be an old veteran riding around in some cheap gear (aka I dare you to touch me bitch). And on top of all of that, supposedly 4 brand new players should be able to drop highly experienced veterans.

The complexities of how PvP could possibly play out is very fascinating to me, and definitely my main draw.

Also, Mav, I have to ask, have you thought about the alignment hits and how that will effect your ability to PvP the way you describe?

Mav said:

While I can't stand their playstyle I also really fucking hate when they label the rest of us as something we aren't.

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This is something that interested me, and I am not trying to say this with any sort of malice Mav.

I don't consider you a griefer because you play games were that is the point, and natural selection will always push out those that don't enjoy PVP of that style, but you do have a habit of calling us that don't agree with your playstyle a "carebear", can you not see the hippocracy of your comment and what you have said in the past?

I don't think it is fair to complain about being labeled something, when you have done much labeling of us.

Again, just as a observation, not a flame.

You know, I wonder if my mother would like this game. I might have to get it for her birthday.


...What? *whistles innocently*

ScytheRexx said:

Mav said:

While I can't stand their playstyle I also really fucking hate when they label the rest of us as something we aren't.

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This is something that interested me, and I am not trying to say this with any sort of malice Mav.

I don't consider you a griefer because you play games were that is the point, and natural selection will always push out those that don't enjoy PVP of that style, but you do have a habit of calling us that don't agree with your playstyle a "carebear", can you not see the hippocracy of your comment and what you have said in the past?

I don't think it is fair to complain about being labeled something, when you have done much labeling of us.

Again, just as a observation, not a flame.

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Well if you look at the mmo definition of carebear, it's people that enjoy a more restricted environment. Those that enjoy the mmo's where pvp is pretty much at a minimal and there are plenty of "safe zones" etc It's a literal description of a style of play. It may sound harsh when used to describe a person but it in no way compares to someone labeling an entire genre of gamers (the pvp substyle) as griefers, especially when we play games specifically made for us to do so..

Necronic said:

Also, Mav, I have to ask, have you thought about the alignment hits and how that will effect your ability to PvP the way you describe?

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Yep. There are going to be times where I am fubared cause I won't be able to enter X places of X faction cause I've ganked too many people of X faction. I encountered the same problem in other mmos and quite frankly, it's fun as hell. Nothing is more awesome than running into a neighboring faction, whom you are hostile with due to you killing players of that faction and not only fighting off players of that faction but fellow NPC guards of that faction that are now hostile to you ;p it makes it that much more difficult. I loved the huge negative faction sympathy I got when playing Neocron, where the uber high level NPC guards would be chasing me down cause I pwned my own faction too many times and I'd be fighting off other players are the same time. Killing them, making a break for the nearest extraction point, trying not to die and drop my shit rofl those were good times.

Some of the best moments in pvp mmos has been with alignment and faction sympathy issues, good stuff.

Mav said:

Necronic said:

Also, Mav, I have to ask, have you thought about the alignment hits and how that will effect your ability to PvP the way you describe?

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Yep. There are going to be times where I am fubared cause I won't be able to enter X places of X faction cause I've ganked too many people of X faction. I encountered the same problem in other mmos and quite frankly, it's fun as hell. Nothing is more awesome than running into a neighboring faction, whom you are hostile with due to you killing players of that faction and not only fighting off players of that faction but fellow NPC guards of that faction that are now hostile to you ;p it makes it that much more difficult. I loved the huge negative faction sympathy I got when playing Neocron, where the uber high level NPC guards would be chasing me down cause I pwned my own faction too many times and I'd be fighting off other players are the same time. Killing them, making a break for the nearest extraction point, trying not to die and drop my shit rofl those were good times.

Some of the best moments in pvp mmos has been with alignment and faction sympathy issues, good stuff.

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Its a great mechanic because it allows for a kind of buffered safe zone, where people like you aren't allowed in. You can get in, but staying around, or getting out will be hard. Plus, you will probably loose access to cheaper markets yada yada. Same thing with Piracy in EvE.

I would like to point out that, because Asenka has defined griefing (on the previous page) as "anything that causes grief, despite the rules", then:

- Killing a rare spawn before somebody else can is griefing, since you have caused them grief because they really wanted it.

- selling an item for more money than somebody has, so they can't buy it is griefing, since you have caused them grief because they really wanted it.

- Riding your horse is griefing, because people below the level cap really want one, but don't have one, and so they are griefed.

Those are a few ridiculous examples, but since Asenka has defined griefing as such (so that he may be right in this retarded argument), everybody who has ever done something that may piss somebody off, inadvertently or not, is now a griefer.