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So, yea, there are now ways ( ) to see the unaired episode 13 of Dollhouse. Personally, as I've already preordered the DVD (which it'll be on) I watched it with a clear conscious. And....wow. Damn. Best episode yet. Best hour of television I've seen all year. I have no idea what they'll do with season 2, but whatever it is, I trust that it'll be awesome after this.

So was this meant to be the true season finale?

ZenMonkey said:

So was this meant to be the true season finale?

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My understanding is that there were only 12 episodes aired due to all the reshoots and such on the pilot. However, the network ordered 13 episodes, so they had the budget to make one more. It was always intended to be direct to dvd.

Bowielee said:

ZenMonkey said:

So was this meant to be the true season finale?

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My understanding is that there were only 12 episodes aired due to all the reshoots and such on the pilot. However, the network ordered 13 episodes, so they had the budget to make one more. It was always intended to be direct to dvd.

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Close. They had the original first episode, which Fox being who they are, didn't like. So they remade the episode as the aired first episode. Well Fox didn't like having the Second first episode as the 14th episode, so they decided to have the originally planned 13 which dumbly included the unaired first episode. Epitaph One was going to air, but since they redid the first episode, Fox said no.

And after watching Epitaph One, I am amazed. That was the best episode yet, and I dunno what will happen with season 2, being if EO was going to be canon, is it still canon, or is it going to be different.

Since it is Fox, I am not shocked one bit.

I still cant believe they cancelled the Terminator tv show, yet kept Dollhouse.

Then again I cant believe Dollhouse is a Whedon show. Its no where near as good as Buffy/Angel and Firefly.

I thought Dollhouse got a lot better towards the end. Still not as good as Terminator, but Terminator didn't become amazing till it's second season either.

I'm still pissed about Terminator but I'm not gonna take it out on Dollhouse.

Damn Megavideo! Five minutes left, and it tells me I've watched too much today.

That said, this episode is retarded. Season 1 took place in 2009 didn't it? [spoiler:1u271vu2]So a lot of shit has changed in ten years[/spoiler:1u271vu2].

This makes me very excited for Season 2.

Roxxoredizorz said:

And after watching Epitaph One, I am amazed. That was the best episode yet, and I dunno what will happen with season 2, being if EO was going to be canon, is it still canon, or is it going to be different.

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Whedon has said that it's cannon. [spoiler:3vjty92b]While they've now placed some restraints upon themselves with what happens in the future, there really aren't that many restraints. Like it seems November is dead, but the comment about it was so ambiguous that practically anything could happen to her at this point - especially when you consider what "dead" means in this world[/spoiler:3vjty92b]

Rob King said:

Damn Megavideo! Five minutes left, and it tells me I've watched too much today.

That said, this episode is retarded. Season 1 took place in 2009 didn't it? [spoiler:3vjty92b]So a lot of poop has changed in ten years[/spoiler:3vjty92b].

This makes me very excited for Season 2.

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We don't actually know that Season 1 took place in 2009, but it seems very likely. In episode 12 Caroline mentioned there being a black president, for example. [spoiler:3vjty92b]So yea, apocalypse in the next 10 years. I knew Obama was the anti-christ! [/spoiler:3vjty92b]

Took me about an hour after watching it for the ep to fully sink in, but I loved it. Although I do worry that now that I know how it ends, the middle may feel like less.

And did they ever say the show took place in 2009? I thought it was a "near future" sort of thing. Even though the latest ep is 2019. And did anyone else find [spoiler:3r44hfz9]Whiskey[/spoiler:3r44hfz9]to be just plain creepy?

Gkbur said:

Took me about an hour after watching it for the ep to fully sink in, but I loved it. Although I do worry that now that I know how it ends, the middle may feel like less.

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I am going to have to disagree with you here. Taking Babylon 5 as an example, JMS showed fairly early on in the series how certain events were going to play out later. For me at least, it didn't feel like spoilers or ruining suspense because even though I knew how an event was going to end, there was still the thrill and suspense of finding out how the show leads up to said event. Granted, JMS was able to pull it off because of his fantastic writing abilities and the fact that he had the series planned out before the first episode went to air. Whedon is a very talented writer as well, and I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I'm confident that he'll be able to make the "middle" just as interesting.

Someone want to PM me a link to a special source of streaming goodness for this?

I am at work and can't use my powers of torrential downpour to see it.

Gkbur said:

And did they ever say the show took place in 2009? I thought it was a "near future" sort of thing. Even though the latest ep is 2019. And did anyone else find [spoiler:3th5pkak]Whiskey[/spoiler:3th5pkak]to be just plain creepy?

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I found her hawt.

Baerdog7 said:

Gkbur said:

Took me about an hour after watching it for the ep to fully sink in, but I loved it. Although I do worry that now that I know how it ends, the middle may feel like less.

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I am going to have to disagree with you here. Taking Babylon 5 as an example, JMS showed fairly early on in the series how certain events were going to play out later. For me at least, it didn't feel like spoilers or ruining suspense because even though I knew how an event was going to end, there was still the thrill and suspense of finding out how the show leads up to said event. Granted, JMS was able to pull it off because of his fantastic writing abilities and the fact that he had the series planned out before the first episode went to air. Whedon is a very talented writer as well, and I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I'm confident that he'll be able to make the "middle" just as interesting.

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Whedon said before Dollhouse aired that he had a plan for the first 4-5 seasons, if the network would let him go that long. I trust him.

Roxxoredizorz said:

Gkbur said:

And did they ever say the show took place in 2009? I thought it was a "near future" sort of thing. Even though the latest ep is 2019. And did anyone else find [spoiler:xxhyc1ss]Whiskey[/spoiler:xxhyc1ss]to be just plain creepy?

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I found her hawt.

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I think the weirdness was mostly because [spoiler:xxhyc1ss]She was in her doll state, and we're so used to seeing her as Saunders.[/spoiler:xxhyc1ss]

Also, I was absolutely heartbroken for Topher. [spoiler:xxhyc1ss]Seems being so brilliant is a burden he couldn't handle once the wrong people got ahold of his innovations. Sadly, I was hoping he would become more Oppenheimer-esque as time went on.[/spoiler:xxhyc1ss]

Rob King said:

Roxxoredizorz said:

Gkbur said:

And did they ever say the show took place in 2009? I thought it was a "near future" sort of thing. Even though the latest ep is 2019. And did anyone else find [spoiler:3tjew9e1]Whiskey[/spoiler:3tjew9e1]to be just plain creepy?

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I found her hawt.

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I think the weirdness was mostly because [spoiler:3tjew9e1]She was in her doll state, and we're so used to seeing her as Saunders.[/spoiler:3tjew9e1]

Also, I was absolutely heartbroken for Topher. [spoiler:3tjew9e1]Seems being so brilliant is a burden he couldn't handle once the wrong people got ahold of his innovations. Sadly, I was hoping he would become more Oppenheimer-esque as time went on.[/spoiler:3tjew9e1]

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[spoiler:3tjew9e1]I got teary eyed when he had that breakdown. Topher is one of the best characters of that show, and seeing him like that just... made me sad, because it makes me remember someone.

And I have a feeling that after his telephone invention, he might have heard of it, because he kept saying "I KNOW WHAT I KNOW" which means that he knows what he knew before his, I'm guessing partial mind wipe.[/spoiler:3tjew9e1]

Oh, and I found Adelle very hawt this episode. She had that mother tone to her, and it was hawt.

I would never go out of my way to request PMed means of viewing this online.

I would also never delete said PM unread....

Kaykor I would never send you a link to something like that...

btw the audio gets out of sync but it might just be my crappy work computer...

Roxxoredizorz said:

[spoiler:3mpukzc0]And I have a feeling that after his telephone invention, he might have heard of it, because he kept saying "I KNOW WHAT I KNOW" which means that he knows what he knew before his, I'm guessing partial mind wipe.[/spoiler:3mpukzc0].

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Hold on now ... am I forgetting something from the series? I know Alpha did a remote wipe via telephone, but [spoiler:3mpukzc0]did Topher ever figure out how to do that, or do a remote upload? Or is that something that must happen between Season 1 and the Apocalypse?[/spoiler:3mpukzc0]

Also, [spoiler:3mpukzc0]I have hope that if the series ever naturally reaches the point that we saw in the Prophetic episode, that Topher's breakdown will have been a temporary one. Even if it's several weeks, or months, I NEED to see Topher get past that. I need to.[/spoiler:3mpukzc0]

The thing that made me happiest about this episode was the fact that all through Season 1, Agent Ballard being told over and over to investigate Dollhouse's purpose, and not it's activities. Instead of having to stew in that in the off-season, it was helpful to see Whedon abandon the subtlety for a spell and repeatedly smash us in the face with it for 45 minutes. It was the most pleasant beating I've had in a while, and now I have more direction for my speculation.

I really liked this episode. The way the head brass got too full of themselves, and even Adelle (who always struck me as morally braindead) thinking they'd gone too far, it was awesome.

The flashbacks showing what happened, and how the Dollhouse adapted (and Topher going nuts) were cool. The "present-day" stuff with Felicia Day were okay, but I liked seeing the Dollhouse better than I did her little ragtag crew of misfits. [spoiler:hb2s6snp]Except after they imprinted Caroline.[/spoiler:hb2s6snp]Then it got better.

One thing I would've changed would have been to have them reach Safe Haven. I would've loved to see how the Dollhouse crew ended up. I know it's Whedon's favorite M.O, but I really don't like ambiguous endings. [spoiler:hb2s6snp]Like with Whiskey. Was that poison gas, or just a sedative? Did she kill herself? How's the next ragtag group of misfits gonna find Safe Haven without her?[/spoiler:hb2s6snp]

Having said that, I really can't wait to see what happens in season two, especially now that we know that

cvgurau said:

Having said that, I really can't wait to see what happens in season two, especially now that we know that [spoiler:1dvvij7i]Omega sticks around[/spoiler:1dvvij7i].

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[spoiler:1dvvij7i]It seemed like she was trying to hide her existence. She kept up her character until she got into the elevator. So is she having new personalities dumped into her composited brain one by one? What problems can arise from that, I wonder?[/spoiler:1dvvij7i]

Rob King said:

Roxxoredizorz said:

[spoiler:19l1v4kw]And I have a feeling that after his telephone invention, he might have heard of it, because he kept saying "I KNOW WHAT I KNOW" which means that he knows what he knew before his, I'm guessing partial mind wipe.[/spoiler:19l1v4kw]

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Hold on now ... am I forgetting something from the series? I know Alpha did a remote wipe via telephone, but [spoiler:19l1v4kw]did Topher ever figure out how to do that, or do a remote upload? Or is that something that must happen between Season 1 and the Apocalypse?[/spoiler:19l1v4kw]

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[spoiler:19l1v4kw]He only did a remote wipe on November, and then Topher found out about it. Then I'm guessing he performed it, after Victor was used by the main Dollhouse boss. Now, I am trying to piece together it, and I think that Topher might have half remote wiped himself. That's why he is in the pod, and after thinking about the phone wipe, he says "I KNOW WHAT I KNOW".[/spoiler:19l1v4kw]

Rob King said:

cvgurau said:

Having said that, I really can't wait to see what happens in season two, especially now that we know that [spoiler:19l1v4kw]Omega sticks around[/spoiler:19l1v4kw].

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[spoiler:19l1v4kw]It seemed like she was trying to hide her existence. She kept up her character until she got into the elevator. So is she having new personalities dumped into her composited brain one by one? What problems can arise from that, I wonder?[/spoiler:19l1v4kw]

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[spoiler:19l1v4kw]It's like a house. Her original self is the foundation, and each personality is another floor upon that foundation. That's the best way I can explain it. The only problems that are arising, are bad headaches because they are filling her brain with all her personalities. Or another way to describe it is nachos. The chip is the base, and everything on top is like a new experience, and new knowledge. Cheese, sour cream, salsa, jalapenos, beef, olives, chives, maybe even bacon bits.[/spoiler:19l1v4kw] You get what I'm saying?

cvgurau said:

I really liked this episode. The way the head brass got too full of themselves, and even Adelle (who always struck me as morally braindead) thinking they'd gone too far, it was awesome.

The flashbacks showing what happened, and how the Dollhouse adapted (and Topher going nuts) were cool. The "present-day" stuff with Felicia Day were okay, but I liked seeing the Dollhouse better than I did her little ragtag crew of misfits. [spoiler:1xx2j70v]Except after they imprinted Caroline.[/spoiler:1xx2j70v]Then it got better.

One thing I would've changed would have been to have them reach Safe Haven. I would've loved to see how the Dollhouse crew ended up. I know it's Whedon's favorite M.O, but I really don't like ambiguous endings. [spoiler:1xx2j70v]Like with Whiskey. Was that poison gas, or just a sedative? Did she kill herself? How's the next ragtag group of misfits gonna find Safe Haven without her?[/spoiler:1xx2j70v]

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[spoiler:1xx2j70v]remember, this is Epitaph ONE. As in there will probably be more episodes set in this time. Maybe we'll occasionally flash forward through season 2, or maybe we'll revisit 2019 in the season finales of the first few seasons (if there are more after 2, of course) until we get caught up....who knows? I can see Whedon doing all kinds of tricky cool things with this. I also really want to know if Whiskey is actually dead...I like it better if, say, she does this every time a ragtag band makes it to the Dollhouse - she helps them find Caroline and move on while she stays behind and turns on the gas if any butchers follow them. It would seem weird if she just stayed behind to just help one group find Safe Haven before dying, you know?[/spoiler:1xx2j70v]

omg i have to watch this NOW! Now as in when I get home from work...but I have to know where to find it!

Not going to do spoiler tags since, if someone clicks on the thread, then they really should expect spoilers. I just watched it and a little confused by a few things.

-Who was in the little girl's body? I don't remember which one November was. Was she the active that Agent Ballard had fallen for?
-Who was in Victor's body in the kitchen?
-I thought the guy that attacked Adelle was dead?

Overall, I like the concept of jumping ahead and showing just how extraordinarily dangerous the technology could be if in the wrong hands (is it in the right hands, even now?). I loved the idea of the birthmarks. I just thought it was a poorly directed/edited episode, because a lot of things were going on all at once and there was a lot of jumping around, so it left me feeling confused.

-Who was in the little girl's body? Don't know, it was never stated, but it's not someone who had been in the house before I suspect since they didn't recognise the chair from their treatments. More likely some outside body had fucked up a remote imprint at some point. Or some remote body was specifically trying to infiltrate the house, but that seems unlikely.
I don't remember which one November was. Was she the active that Agent Ballard had fallen for? Yep, that's the one
-Who was in Victor's body in the kitchen? Someone senior to Adele. Someone with a lot of power in the parent corporation.
-I thought the guy that attacked Adelle was dead? He was sent to the Attic, which they had suggested meant that his body was dead, but I guess not, just kept in a wiped state permanently I guess.

Don't worry, I'm sure it'll all become clearer, probably in the 2nd series, maybe in DVD commentaries?

ThatNickGuy said:

-Who was in the little girl's body?.

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[spoiler:11n0q70z]I understood it to be a random person who has had access to the technology in the last few years. Instead of getting the body they expected, they ended up in the child.[/spoiler:11n0q70z]

ThatNickGuy said:

I don't remember which one November was. Was she the active that Agent Ballard had fallen for?

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[spoiler:11n0q70z]Yes. She started off as Ballard's neighbor. She was freed from the Dollhouse in episode 12, and I assumed something bad happened to her once the surface world began to fall apart.[/spoiler:11n0q70z]

-Who was in Victor's body in the kitchen?[/quote]

[spoiler:11n0q70z]Someone higher up in the Dollhouse organizational structure. Adelle's superior. Not sure we've met him before, but I found it cute that the first thing he would do was eat something he had been allergic to for his whole life.[/spoiler:11n0q70z]

ThatNickGuy said:

-I thought the guy that attacked Adelle was dead?

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What guy?

He was put in the attic which they they basically wipe your mind and you just lay there trying to think of something, like its something you know you remember and its on the tip of your tongue but you can never remember it and you just keep trying.

Ah, I think I'm confusing the guy that attacked Adelle (he was on top of her in her office, etc etc) with the guy they sent to the attic. Thought it was the same guy. I think I'm ALSO confusing attic guy with the guy that was sent to kill November, because I recall him getting killed.

Sorry, I'm a little rusty on the show. I'd probably be better if it I'd watched it soon after the other episodes.

Also, I thought someone said here that November was in the little girl's body.

This show is going to make my head hurt soon enough, isn't it?

The old head of the security was the one that was put in the attic and that attacked Adelle.

As for November being in the little girl, umm I don't think so unless she went batshit insane. Bitch was killing everyone.

But from the comments in the flashback that the other actives made, I think November died when everything went crazy up on the surface.

Both of you are fucking shit up. THERE WAS A GUY who was previously SIERRA's handler, and he raped her. Adelle sent him to kill November, fully knowing that November was a doll, and could handle herself, she kills him.

Now November was NEVER IN the little girls body. CAROLINE/ECHO/OMEGA was imprinted into the little girls body, AFTER they found out she had been imprinted with someone else, who wanted to kill the people with their original personalities.

And the HEAD OF SECURITY Laurence Dominic Was found out to be a spy for the NSA, so they took him, and put him in the attic. Well when shit went down, SOMEONE gave him his original personality back.

Hey man, remember the part where I said I was confused? Read that again. Over and over and over until you get the idea through your thick skull that I was fucking confused. It's been awhile since I watched the last episode, or the whole show in general, so I couldn't remember all the bit characters that've made appearances.

But hey, thanks for the clarification!

Roxxoredizorz said:

THERE WAS A GUY who was previously SIERRA's handler, and he raped her. Adelle sent him to kill November, fully knowing that November was a doll, and could handle herself, she kills him.

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Huh. I had forgotten him.

ThatNickGuy said:

Hey man, remember the part where I said I was confused? Read that again. Over and over and over until you get the idea through your thick skull that I was smurfing confused. It's been awhile since I watched the last episode, or the whole show in general, so I couldn't remember all the bit characters that've made appearances.

But hey, thanks for the clarification!

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I said "Fucking shit up" as in, each time one of you posted something about the last ones, you were skewing it more. I was just trying to CLARIFY

"Hey guys, just to help clarify or clear things up for you..."

"It's been awhile for both of you, so let me help set the record..."

There's about a billion different ways you could've approached it and you chose the jackass route.

Roxxoredizorz said:

I said "Fucking shit up" as in, each time one of you posted something about the last ones, you were skewing it more. I was just trying to CLARIFY

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I think you're confused. Nick wasn't sure of some things and he stated such, and I can't see anybody else "skewing."

I gave up on this series after an episode or two because it was complete crap, and from what I understand it stayed that way for about half of the season. I've been told that the unaired pilot, which is now available, is actually good, and the plot points from it were spread out over the first few crap episodes. So, my question for those of you who actually watched this all the way through: would it be possible to watch the unaired pilot, and then jump into the real series halfway through once it apparently starts getting good, without missing anything too important? Or did too much change between the pilot and the series?

Reboneer said:

I gave up on this series after an episode or two because it was complete crap, and from what I understand it stayed that way for about half of the season. I've been told that the unaired pilot, which is now available, is actually good, and the plot points from it were spread out over the first few crap episodes. So, my question for those of you who actually watched this all the way through: would it be possible to watch the unaired pilot, and then jump into the real series halfway through once it apparently starts getting good, without missing anything too important? Or did too much change between the pilot and the series?

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Haven't seen the pilot, so I couldn't really answer your question, but I wouldn't imagine it to be possible. If they decided not to air it and instead cannibalize it for parts, then it lies firmly outside the established series. It might be brilliant on it's own, but I wouldn't count on it functioning as a bridge over the 'complete crap' episodes.

I'd personally call the second half of the series "pretty awesome," but I thought the first few episodes were fairly decent. Now, the series does get better around episode six, but if you declared episodes one and two 'complete crap' I wouldn't bother trying to watch it again. It doesn't improve enough to reverse such judgment.

All that said, is your time that valuable that you need to ask these questions to save yourself two or three hours? Just pick up where you left off some lazy afternoon and see how far you get. Or watch a later episode at random, and if you deem it awesome enough, watch the others in between. It might spoil some things, but it'll also let you make your own decision and not feel gypped if you watch the pilot, episodes six, seven and eight, and still decide that the show isn't worth watching.

By episode five I felt like I'd given the show a chance and it had failed. I started reading that six and later were a lot better, so I caught up and watched the rest of the season. It was pretty darned good. The first episodes are more understandable in light of the later ones, but it doesn't necessarily make them all that watchable.

It was like the show had to go through an awkward phase for dramatic purposes. "Hey, here's what this show is about. Cute, huh? BAM! Different show altogether!"

Reboneer said:

Or did too much change between the pilot and the series?

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Too much changed. For example, they have Ballard meet Echo (Caroline, whatever) in the pilot. Other things happen related to that, but it's "BAM" immediate. As well you meet Victor right away as a doll, not to mention the "remote wipe" mechanic is introduced right away as a "possible" rather than how it's seen as "near-miraculous" in an episode in the series.

So not contradictory, but definitely "changed canon" and not merely stuff we didn't see. But they definitely go into the "moral implications" of the technology RIGHT AWAY, but the problem is they spam it into you in a conversation between echo's handler (I don't know why I can't remember his name, but I can't) and Topher. More a "hey, here's morality exposition!" rather than how it's more organically woven in later in the season.

The first few episodes were kinda "random" but my wife and I continue watching it (we DVR it) and after 5 or 6, it has gotten good and we finish the series (last 3 we had to wait 1 week which kinda sucks) it ended well and hope to see more.

I haven't see the "unaired" one yet either.

If you look at the body of most shows, the first handful of episodes are awkward and hard to watch. Let's look at Whedon's other shows:

Buffy? I LOVE that show...but almost the entire first couple of discs are pretty bad. Without those episodes, the show wouldn't be what it is, but they are still pretty bad.

Angel was pretty strong from the get go, but still took a couple of episodes to get it's legs under it. Angel and Cordy were good together, but working in Doyle and Wesley was a bit of a stumble. It definitely worked, but had the advantage of having previously established characters as its main leads.

Firefly, as much as I love it, kind of stumbled out of the block too. I think it stumbled the least of the three.

I watch Friends for the first time in the last couple of years. A lot of people would consider that show to be one of the best sitcoms in the modern era of sitcoms, if not ever. There's no doubt that it was successful and funny (I hated the idea of the show before I watched it). When we first started watching it, I wanted to give up on it. the first episodes SUCKED. Had I been watching it when it first came out, i would have given up on it.

Now, I watch shows with that in mind. Chuck, Heroes, Dollhouse, Terminator, etc. It makes shows much easier to enjoy, and easier to fight through as well.

That being said...I LOVED this episode. I will be buying the first season on DVD just to be able to watch it on my 42" TV rather than sneaking to watch it on my 17" work monitor.

I just got word that my friend picked up my Comic-Con exclusive Blu-Ray edition. Sadly, I probably won't be home until the end of the year.

Can someone please not send me the link to this episode. Because seeing it would be very very wrong and bad...


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