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This sounds really interesting... but how will they pull it off?! Quests that have you receive access to more skills, or to new levels?! Or like in Dungeon Siege you gain "not-xp' with what weapon you use etc?!

http://ps3.gamespy.com/playstation-3/sq ... 969p1.html

Oh, good.

Because their first MMO is so fucking wonderful.

Worst MMO ever fucking made. That entire game is a goddamn punishment.

Something, somewhere... went terribly bad in the FF franchise the last few years. As far as JMMORPGs, FF online is as bad as they come.

Oh hey, maybe this one will be even worse than 11 now! This must mean everyone is level one forever and you'll need 1,000 person raids to kill bosses.

I like FF 11 rly:

the greatness of any FF game is directly related to the involvment of Hironobu Sakaguchi.

Ultima Online was XP free, as it was Skill based. It's STILL up and running.

AshburnerX said:

Ultima Online was XP free, as it was Skill based. It's STILL up and running.

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ur game intrigues me... pls explain.

SWG was :quote: xp free :quote: in a sense, before that damn patch.....

I don't mind LVL free games such as UO. It's just the jap crap that doesn't appeal to me. They are so superficial that me as a gamer am limited to one thing, GRIND.

Original SWG was fun to play.

And eve online has no xp either. Still up running, and with a growing user base after six years (best mmorpg ever IMHO).
So, nothing revolutionary there.

@Li3n said:

AshburnerX said:

Ultima Online was XP free, as it was Skill based. It's STILL up and running.

Click to expand...

ur game intrigues me... pls explain.

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It's based on skill percentages, which determined the effectiveness of your skills. To raise your skill you just use your skills more, though it takes longer (in theory) to get skill the more skill you have. You max at a certain percentage of skill points total though (when I played, this was 700%) and once you reach the max, you start losing points in skills you don't personally lock. The shard Siege Perilous used a different system, where your point gains were time-based; after a certain amount of time passed, you would always gain a point in a skill if you used it, which would reset the timer.

Keep in mind, however, I left back when 3rd Dawn was released. Things may have changed since then. Here's some more info.

Swg was anything but xp free, crafting xp, pistols xp, rifle xp, etc, and standard combat xp.

And it was an awesome system

Hyimi said:

I like FF 11 rly:

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I like FFXI too. I'm planning to give FF14 a chance, to see if moving their MMO from the PS2 platform will allow them to make some big improvements on graphics.

FF11 is the only instance in which a developer was able to actually condense his virulent hatred for humanity into game code

WolfOfOdin said:

FF11 is the only instance in which a developer was able to actually condense his virulent hatred for humanity into game code

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hahahahaha

WolfOfOdin said:

FF11 is the only instance in which a developer was able to actually condense his virulent hatred for humanity into game code

Click to expand...

As someone who played FF11, I have to say.

This quote sums up the entire 'experience' of playing that game.

Awesome.

well they had to get you back for all the grief from ff8 not being more like ff7 and not buying ff9...

Why not implement a Morrowind-like system. You use a sword, you improve your sword skills. You carrymuch stuff, you increase stamina.

This is until today the best and most realistic way of levelling up in RPGs, and makes more sense than "Im suddenly going to increase 3 points in a weapon that I never used!"

@Li3n said:

AshburnerX said:

Ultima Online was XP free, as it was Skill based. It's STILL up and running.

Click to expand...

ur game intrigues me... pls explain.

Click to expand...

the wonderful world of Ultima Online. It is an old bird eye's view MMORPG type game using spirit base (i.e. premade graphic) I am not sure if it has gone totally 3D type yet but this is what I remember before I left the game (nothing else for me to do after 8 years)

The game goes by skill base system. you have a 700 skillpoint cap (which can be increase by various means which I have forgotten upto 800 I think... someone please correct me if I'm wrong) you gain skill (0 to 100 base) via USING the skill. The higher the skill, the harder to earn points. There are scrolls which unlock the cap upto 120 points BUT you are still limit to 700 base (unless you unlock the higher skill point)

This mean you can pick your favorite skill and mix and match (yes tank mages and such) but some skill have better synergy than other skills. Also with balance over the years a pure tank mages doesn't work as well as early days (magic spell 100 cast 8th circle spell AND wearing full plate mail) I do believe there are over 100 skills to choose from.

that is the gist of it.

JCM said:

Why not implement a Morrowind-like system. You use a sword, you improve your sword skills. You carrymuch stuff, you increase stamina.

This is until today the best and most realistic way of levelling up in RPGs, and makes more sense than "Im suddenly going to increase 3 points in a weapon that I never used!"

Click to expand...

That's exactly how Ultima Online MMO played.
As for FFXI? Grab a 2x4 with rusty nails in it and grab some massage oil.

For about 30minutes, massage yourself gently with the oil. Soothe yourself, enjoy and relax.

On the 31st minute, grab the 2x4 and beat yourself mercilessly with it. I mean go to town like you owe yourself money. Do this for 4hrs.

When you regain consciousness, grab the oil and repeat.

It'll cost you less and it's the exact same experience as that MMO.

Shegokigo said:

It'll cost you less and it's the exact same experience as that MMO.

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Not humiliating enough.

You'd probably need a harmless fluffy cute animal to do the beating for you, just to capture the humiliating feeling of getting defeated by a rabbit, crab or sheep.

While decked in full plate, with a great sword.

zero said:

And eve online has no xp either. Still up running, and with a growing user base after six years (best mmorpg ever IMHO).
So, nothing revolutionary there.

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God damned right my man! You should listen to a couple of the podcasts where I talk about EvE as being the best MMO in existence right now. My only beef with it is that its too good. It requires too much of a mental commitment for a lot of players. It doesn't reward drunken/high/wasted play, and in fact will reward good understanding of complicated math and management concepts. That's probably the reason I don't play any more, only have a couple hours of gaming time a week, and I couldn't get too much done in that game with that much time.

Necronic said:

zero said:

And eve online has no xp either. Still up running, and with a growing user base after six years (best mmorpg ever IMHO).
So, nothing revolutionary there.

Click to expand...

God damned right my man! You should listen to a couple of the podcasts where I talk about EvE as being the best MMO in existence right now. My only beef with it is that its too good. It requires too much of a mental commitment for a lot of players. It doesn't reward drunken/high/wasted play, and in fact will reward good understanding of complicated math and management concepts. That's probably the reason I don't play any more, only have a couple hours of gaming time a week, and I couldn't get too much done in that game with that much time.

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you goddamned freak. if by mental commitment you mean hours of time wasted, then sure.

And which mmo (or other computer game) offers more than time wasted? Oh yes, all the ones that have real life benefits......

Actually, I would actually argue that EvE does have tangible benefits. You could teach people oodles of economic/finance/management theory from that game.

Gurpel said:

Necronic said:

zero said:

And eve online has no xp either. Still up running, and with a growing user base after six years (best mmorpg ever IMHO).
So, nothing revolutionary there.

Click to expand...

God damned right my man! You should listen to a couple of the podcasts where I talk about EvE as being the best MMO in existence right now. My only beef with it is that its too good. It requires too much of a mental commitment for a lot of players. It doesn't reward drunken/high/wasted play, and in fact will reward good understanding of complicated math and management concepts. That's probably the reason I don't play any more, only have a couple hours of gaming time a week, and I couldn't get too much done in that game with that much time.

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you goddamned freak. if by mental commitment you mean hours of time wasted, then sure.

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I liked EVE, but it's the only MMO I've ever encountered that actually required you to have no job, no life, and no need for physical sustenance beyond an endless supply of corn-chips to actually get shit done.

JCM said:

Why not implement a Morrowind-like system. You use a sword, you improve your sword skills. You carrymuch stuff, you increase stamina.

This is until today the best and most realistic way of levelling up in RPGs, and makes more sense than "Im suddenly going to increase 3 points in a weapon that I never used!"

Click to expand...

I always liked this system, because your character leveled up in the way you actually used it. So it became more and more your typical character.

JCM said:

Why not implement a Morrowind-like system. You use a sword, you improve your sword skills. You carrymuch stuff, you increase stamina.

This is until today the best and most realistic way of levelling up in RPGs, and makes more sense than "Im suddenly going to increase 3 points in a weapon that I never used!"

Click to expand...

Meh, the problem with that is that a guy that has plenty of exp with a sword will still be better with an axe then someone that has no exp with either... of course it is better then having a Fighter increase his Int with points he earned by just wacking stuff with a sword, which can be explained i guess by saying he got better at using/learning tactics, but doesn't explain why his physical attributes stayed the same...

Chibibar said:

that is the gist of it.

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10x, but i wiki'd it in the mean time... sound interesting, but i've never been a fan of % for skills.

@Li3n said:

JCM said:

Why not implement a Morrowind-like system. You use a sword, you improve your sword skills. You carrymuch stuff, you increase stamina.

This is until today the best and most realistic way of levelling up in RPGs, and makes more sense than "Im suddenly going to increase 3 points in a weapon that I never used!"

Click to expand...

Meh, the problem with that is that a guy that has plenty of exp with a sword will still be better with an axe then someone that has no exp with either... of course it is better then having a Fighter increase his Int with points he earned by just wacking stuff with a sword, which can be explained i guess by saying he got better at using/learning tactics, but doesn't explain why his physical attributes stayed the same...

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Actually no.

Use a heavy sword? Your strenght increases along with it. So it does affect your using an axe.
The use = learn system is the only system that makes sense, because its funny seeing a mage that has never held a sword suddenly become proficient in it. :slywink:

Seraphyn said:

JCM said:

Why not implement a Morrowind-like system. You use a sword, you improve your sword skills. You carrymuch stuff, you increase stamina.

This is until today the best and most realistic way of levelling up in RPGs, and makes more sense than "Im suddenly going to increase 3 points in a weapon that I never used!"

Click to expand...

I always liked this system, because your character leveled up in the way you actually used it. So it became more and more your typical character.

Click to expand...

It also makes the game more interesting, because as in UO and the Elder Scroll games, you actually have a reason to try out new weapons, types of spells and skills, I remember nearing end-game and taking a bow and arrow and practicing shooting down weak creatures just to improve archery.

The best leveling up system was Asheron's Call

...Also final fantasy XI was preeeeeeeeeeeeeeettttyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

and the music was nice.

I loved FFXI; I played it for years and still would be if not for financial/free-time constraints

David said:

I loved FFXI; I played it for years and still would be if not for financial/free-time constraints

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You're a masochist aren't you?

I'm not here to judge, just the most obvious response.

TeKeo said:

Gurpel said:

Necronic said:

zero said:

And eve online has no xp either. Still up running, and with a growing user base after six years (best mmorpg ever IMHO).
So, nothing revolutionary there.

Click to expand...

God damned right my man! You should listen to a couple of the podcasts where I talk about EvE as being the best MMO in existence right now. My only beef with it is that its too good. It requires too much of a mental commitment for a lot of players. It doesn't reward drunken/high/wasted play, and in fact will reward good understanding of complicated math and management concepts. That's probably the reason I don't play any more, only have a couple hours of gaming time a week, and I couldn't get too much done in that game with that much time.

Click to expand...

you goddamned freak. if by mental commitment you mean hours of time wasted, then sure.

Click to expand...

I liked EVE, but it's the only MMO I've ever encountered that actually required you to have no job, no life, and no need for physical sustenance beyond an endless supply of corn-chips to actually get poop done.

Click to expand...

MMMmmmMM, corn chips.....

Draxo said:

WolfOfOdin said:

FF11 is the only instance in which a developer was able to actually condense his virulent hatred for humanity into game code

Click to expand...

As someone who played FF11, I have to say.

This quote sums up the entire 'experience' of playing that game.

Awesome.

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I call it paying a tithe to the Square Cult... but yeah I know people who played, who had invited me to play it, and from my experience with it I'm pretty damn certain that those who play FFXI have some degree of stockholm syndrome set in.

That's just the way mmos were pre-wow. Everquest really wasn't much different.

Seems interesting but I'm unsure if Square can pull it off without pissing off 90% of their fanbase.

Cat said:

Seems interesting but I'm unsure if Square can pull it off without pissing off 90% of their fanbase.

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Actually, every FF does more or less try new stuff. Sure DragonQuest was first console game to use turn-based battle/XP levelling up, but Final Fantasy was about experimenting.

FFII was the first RPG to level up what you used, not have XP and a class change. FFIII was the first to allow you to change your class. Dragonquest Monsters used monster levelling, while the Slime series was Zelda-like, you just got better weapons. Tactics had a Chess-like feel. Crisis Core/KingDom Hearts used a real-time menu fighting system, Vagrant Story used weapon creation and levelling, and so on.

So Square's fanbase (nice to meet you too) pretty much are used to having different fighting-levelling systems, and try and keep up with the ATBs, CTBs and ADBs.

That's a good point, I tend to unjustly generalize JRPG fans as levelup grindwhores.

Cat said:

That's a good point, I tend to unjustly generalize JRPG fans as levelup grindwhores.

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No that's Korean MMOs :tongue:

Cat said:

That's a good point, I tend to unjustly generalize JRPG fans as levelup grindwhores.

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To be fair, while Final Fantasy has experimented a lot, most Japanese do buy Dragonquest over Final Fantasy, and with Dragonquest having the same levelling/battle system since the first game, that technically does make them grindwhores.

However, most DQ players just find where Metal Slimes are, then kill 20-30 of them and not have to grind after.

Oddbot said:

That's just the way mmos were pre-wow. Everquest really wasn't much different.

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EQ didn't even have HALF the masocism of FFXI, not by a mile and a half. That's because I even raided the Planes in EQ, I knew what a swift kick in the teeth it could be. FFXI on the other hand was in a league of it's own.

FFXI's biggest flaws for me were.

PC version could not upgrade the graphics.
PlayOnline
Controls were fucking horrid
Options Menu was ridiculous

and i never even got into combat really.

Shegokigo said:

Oddbot said:

That's just the way mmos were pre-wow. Everquest really wasn't much different.

Click to expand...

EQ didn't even have HALF the masocism of FFXI, not by a mile and a half. That's because I even raided the Planes in EQ, I knew what a swift kick in the teeth it could be. FFXI on the other hand was in a league of it's own.

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This. EQ was pretty unforgiving (I played for 3-4 years), but FFXI is still probably the roughest MMO I've ever played, and I was a Cleric in EQ.

Shegokigo said:

Oddbot said:

That's just the way mmos were pre-wow. Everquest really wasn't much different.

Click to expand...

EQ didn't even have HALF the masocism of FFXI, not by a mile and a half. That's because I even raided the Planes in EQ, I knew what a swift kick in the teeth it could be. FFXI on the other hand was in a league of it's own.

Click to expand...

Wasnt there a Boss in FFXI that couldnt be killed even after they fought it for more then 24 hours?

The fun part, was that most of the end game bosses, were on a spawn timer of exact hour respawn (24hrs, 48hrs, etc) so the JP playerbase uber guilds, would set it up so that the epic bosses would only spawn during their peak hours, which would be almost impossible raid times for US raiders.

Anyone who says the menu system was the worst thing about FFXI never actually played FFXI.

It's how the game punishes you for EVERYTHING.

I died! And I deleveled! I can't wear my armor anymore! It'll take hours to get back to where I was, provided I don't die again!

I need to bring 50 pickaxes because they break every 2-3 uses! (If I'm lucky)

Oh boy! After fishing for a week straight (again, buying 50+ fishing rods) I FINALLY have enough money to buy the UNBREAKABLE fishing rod! *buys it* *7 casts later...* *Fishing rod breaks* WHAT THE FUCK, FFXI??

The monsters can attack me while I run away, but I can't attack them while I'm moving at all!

I can't actually HEAL my party! That's suicide for me!

I can't actually NUKE this creature! That's suicide for me!

I've been waiting 3 hours for a party because you cannot solo in this game!

I'd be good at crafting if it didn't FAIL ALL THE TIME! Oh well, back to farming crystals, lol.

----

Seriously, I liked the game's environment, system, etc... But really, whoever said the game designer found a way to put true loathing of gamers into pure code couldn't have said it better.

-- Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:11 am --

Thing is, there was a bit of addictiveness to it.

Like, if we were to set up a Halforum guild on FFXI, I might be willing to give it another go. (My main problem was finding groups.)

At some point I realized that Quadav Shells sold for a decent bit and I farmed them for like 8 hours a day to make money.

Again, took forever and was bullshit.

I hate this game. And yet, I can't overcome its goddamn charm.

Necronic said:

God damned right my man! You should listen to a couple of the podcasts where I talk about EvE as being the best MMO in existence right now. My only beef with it is that its too good. (...) It doesn't reward drunken/high/wasted play, and in fact will reward good understanding of complicated math and management concepts(...)

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Ah, but here's where we disagree. Yes, it is indeed a very complex game, and not only on the obvious aspects (it has the most sophisticated and cutthroat economic model ever to appear on a game, for instance)...

... then again, our late night sessions of "one kill, one shot" hunting on scalding pass are probably one of my fondest memories of eve online

doomdragon6 said:

Anyone who says the menu system was the worst thing about FFXI never actually played FFXI.

It's how the game punishes you for EVERYTHING.

I died! And I deleveled! I can't wear my armor anymore! It'll take hours to get back to where I was, provided I don't die again!

etc...

Click to expand...

That is actually a very good detailed description of the problems playing FFXI, and reading it made me think of 2 questions:

1. With no experience points, how will Square Enix "punish" the players for dying in FFXIV, do you think? I doubt they'll use the same system as WoW. They tend to think very differently than Blizzard.

2. It's probably this feeling everyone gets that Square Enix is always trying to screw over its players in FFXI which inspired the blogger who created the "[GM] Dave" persona (bannable offenses blog) - where he basically blogs as if he were a GM working at SE, talking about how he hates all the players, etc. Are there any other games that have inspired a similar kind of fanfiction, where the company hates, and is always trying to screw over, its own customers? I can't think of any, myself.

LordRendar said:

Shegokigo said:

Oddbot said:

That's just the way mmos were pre-wow. Everquest really wasn't much different.

Click to expand...

EQ didn't even have HALF the masocism of FFXI, not by a mile and a half. That's because I even raided the Planes in EQ, I knew what a swift kick in the teeth it could be. FFXI on the other hand was in a league of it's own.

Click to expand...

Wasnt there a Boss in FFXI that couldnt be killed even after they fought it for more then 24 hours?

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Yup, let me see if I can find the story, it's crazy.

Aha.

http://kotaku.com/5036371/final-fantasy ... rs-to-beat

Uuuuuugh...FFXI....never again. For some strange, masochistic reason, I reactivated it again like 8 months ago. And then i remmebred why I quit it. What a terrible, horrible game. So much wrong. So very much.

Shannow said:

Uuuuuugh...FFXI....never again. For some strange, masochistic reason, I reactivated it again like 8 months ago. And then i remmebred why I quit it. What a terrible, horrible game. So much wrong. So very much.

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I did the same thing during some downtime in WoW about 10 months ago too. The 30fps cap alone was enough to dissuade me, even though I still had all my characters and millions of gil (which is pretty much worthless these days).

Sldghmr said:

2. It's probably this feeling everyone gets that Square Enix is always trying to screw over its players in FFXI which inspired the blogger who created the \"[GM] Dave\" persona (bannable offenses blog) - where he basically blogs as if he were a GM working at SE, talking about how he hates all the players, etc. Are there any other games that have inspired a similar kind of fanfiction, where the company hates, and is always trying to screw over, its own customers? I can't think of any, myself.

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Yes, and way before that too: ImaNewbie. In this one specifically, look at this image: (I hope it links here fine)

Given how early in the game this was made (year 1 or 2) the image is even more ironic.

I was lucky and able to play FFXI with a dedicated group of about 5 people that I knew in real life... The combat in that game was actually really fun, I liked how there were combos on doing one element and then another and rewards for fighting more than one monster, and fighting them one right after another. Much more exciting than WoW's grab one monster, beat the crap out of it, drink, grab another one fest...

The problem with FFXI was the player base. Which of course stemmed from the game.

The game was hard, very challenging and it punished you for dying. This made a playerbase of people who were paranoid about dying, angry at you for any tiny mistake that was made, and who refused to take risks. WHAT No of course a redmage can't heal. We might have a 2% chance of dying! We need to wait for a whitemage... How boring. Public groups were by far the worst. Either they were filled with paranoid people who would kill a low level monster once every five minutes, or people who just got you killed, proving the paranoid people correct. And if you weren't a standard class and happened to play a hybrid or something, good luck.

Then there were the japanese players. When the game first was released the japanese players purposely bought out every single item from the shops and then put them on the auction house for over 100 times their price. Every single time they spawned. They would train monsters on you, and the GMs would do nothing. Not to mention the economy was so broken and so terrible that it was just impossible to play. The fact that it took me over 8 hours of farming to buy anything on the auction house was just a terrible thing, and I'm sure the japanese players made it worse because they felt angered at the 'intrusion' of a bunch of stupid americans.

What was SE thinking anyway about that. Not only did mixing a bunch of people who had played for a year with a bunch of new players cause a lot of hatred between the two groups, but for the new players going out and discovering and exploring and being on an equal setting was half the fun.

I feel as though if they had seperated the japanese and american servers from the get go, everyone would have had a better time getting gear, getting items and getting groups and learning instead of being harassed and overcharged, this would have made the game easier and the whole game would have been better.

I hope they dont make the same mistake again. Also let everyone join whatever server they want on release.

I always said, that the easiest way to fix the problems with FFXI back in the day, was to make all rare items EX (undroppable) to kill off bots/farmers, make a Gil sink to get your xp back on death (some kind of spirit healer ala Aion), US servers, dropping PS2 support and going pure PC and finally changing ALL rare npc spawns to a RANDOM timer between 6-12hrs instead of a guaranteed 24hr spawn.

That alone would have saved the game on the States side.

I'm not going to touch any Asian MMO unless pigs start to fly. I've already tried their most popular ones and they've all been utter crap, from the first to the last. Quests are just excuses to grind, crafting is horrible without exception and they all come down to furious item hunting with lots of gold farmers and dull locations & game worlds.

I'm not a big Final Fantasy fan though. I've played FFI, II, III, VII, VIII and IX. The first ones were typical JRPGs that I've grown tired off due to the repetitive combat. VII & VIII were a lot better but you still had the random combat. The story was good, I agree, but too much of the game is spent in combat. I just prefer my combat to be more dynamic. With 90% of all combat being identical (keep hitting them with the occasional heal), I just don't get a kick anymore after a while.

Then again, I prefer my RPGs to allow more freedom in tactics. Fallout and Baldur's Gate had a lot more depth to the combat for example.

Please read my review in the Aion thread. They're bringing in an "American Localization" crew on release to bring the Stateside release to a more quest and story orientated and less grind/forced pvp style.

AngelofBitterness said:

I'm not going to touch any Asian MMO [...] Quests are just excuses to grind, crafting is horrible without exception and they all come down to furious item hunting with lots of gold farmers and dull locations & game worlds.

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Woah, woah, hold on there...

World of Warcraft is an Asian game??

David said:

AngelofBitterness said:

I'm not going to touch any Asian MMO [...] Quests are just excuses to grind, crafting is horrible without exception and they all come down to furious item hunting with lots of gold farmers and dull locations & game worlds.

Click to expand...

Woah, woah, hold on there...

World of Warcraft is an Asian game??

Click to expand...

Let me tell you a little story: Once upon a time in a place called The Land of the Rising Sun, a big, famous game company saw it's profits being threatened by people renting their games instead of buying them. They didn't like this practice, so they used money and political clout to get the practice of renting games outlawed. This helped them for awhile, but then a new loophole arose: people were selling back games for money and then others were buying these pre-owned games, denying the game company a sale. There was no way they could make it illegal for someone to sell an object they own, so the game company and it's friends came up with a different solution... they would simply drag the game out as long as possible by inventing grinding and filling the games with pointless collectibles, as well as other techniques to artificially inflate the play time. Now they could delay someone selling their game for weeks or months, ensuring more people would buy it from them instead of used!

WoW uses these old-school JRPG conventions to keep people paying each month, just like every other MMO.