Export thread
France convicts Scientology
#1
Dave
Dave
Organized fraud is the charge.
A French court fined the Church of Scientology on Tuesday for defrauding vulnerable followers, but officials voiced regret that a recent change in the law prevented France from banning it outright. Scientology's Celebrity Centre and its bookshop in Paris, the two branches of its French operations, were ordered to pay 600,000 euros (900,000 dollars) in fines for preying financially on its followers in the 1990s.
Alain Rosenberg, the French leader of a movement best known for its Hollywood followers Tom Cruise and John Travolta, was handed a two-year suspended jail sentence and fined 30,000 euros on the same charge.
\"Religious freedom is in danger in this country,\" said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to \"recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology.\"
A lawyer for Scientology's French operations, Patrick Maisonneuve, said he would appeal, but added that \"the most important thing is that this association can continue to exercise its activities.\"
Paris prosecutors originally asked the court to order the Celebrity Centre and bookshop to be dismantled.
But last month the French courts were alerted to a little-noticed legal change voted in by parliament in May -- the month the trial opened -- which bars judges from dissolving an organisation convicted of fraud.
Although the change has since been dropped, this was not retrospective and thus Scientology was protected from an outright ban in the ongoing case, forcing the court to downgrade the sentence.
\"A ban would run the risk of its activities being pursued outside of any legal framework,\" said judge Sophie-Helene Chateau, suggesting that the group may have gone underground.
Founded in 1954 by US science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, the Church of Scientology is recognised as a religion in the United States and claims a worldwide membership of 12 million.
But European officials in Germany, Greece, Russia and elsewhere have accused the movement of tricking its members out of large sums, and in 1995 it was classified as a cult in France, where it claims 45,000 followers.
Scientology is in the dock in Paris for the second time in six years, and French courts have prosecuted several individual Scientologists since 1978.
The latest case follows a complaint from two women, one of whom says she was manipulated into handing over 20,000 euros for costly products, including an \"electrometer\" to measure mental energy.
She was approached in the street by a Scientologist in 1998 who offered a free personality test, at a time when she was feeling psychologically fragile.
After being told her test results were poor, the woman was sold a series of life-improvement courses, vitamins and other products she could ill afford, landing her in debt.
A second plaintiff alleges she was forced by her Scientologist employer to undergo testing and enroll in courses in 1998. When she refused she was fired.
The head of France's interministerial body on cults, Georges Fenech, said he was sorry judges were prevented from tougher action.
\"I strongly regret that the law was changed discreetly during the trial, just before the trial, without anyone knowing,\" he told France 24 television.
\"But I think the provision has been reinstated by parliament, so there could be a ban in future if they offend again.\"
Critics of Scientology have accused Scientologists of \"infiltrating\" the National Assembly to lobby for the legal change.
Outraged by the allegation, French Scientology's lawyer had asked the court to reopen the case to clear her clients of suspicion.
Wikipedia blocked the Church of Scientology from editing entries at the communally-crafted online encyclopedia earlier this year due to an unrelenting battle over the group's image.
#2
Shegokigo
YES!
Shegokigo
YES!
#3
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Thanks for breaking the forum shego...
I took 2 minutes to load that image on a T1 line. You must really work for CO$
I took 2 minutes to load that image on a T1 line. You must really work for CO$
#4
Covar
Covar
WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States."Religious freedom is in danger in this country," said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to "recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology."
#5
Bowielee
Bowielee
My econ professor used church as an example of a public good (good in the economic sense, not as in "it's a good thing") and said that you can't run a church like a business.
I quickly pointed out scientology to refute that.
I quickly pointed out scientology to refute that.
#6
Kitty Sinatra
Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.
Kitty Sinatra
Because you can hide a money making scheme in religious trappings based on a bad sci-fi novelist's writings?WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States."Religious freedom is in danger in this country," said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to "recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology."
Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.
#7
Dave
Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.[/QUOTE]
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and invest in your scheme.
If it helps, my biological father is Anton LaVey, so creating religions out of thin air is in my blood.
Dave
Because you can hide a money making scheme in religious trappings based on a bad sci-fi novelist's writings?WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States.\"Religious freedom is in danger in this country,\" said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to \"recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology.\"
Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.[/QUOTE]
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and invest in your scheme.
If it helps, my biological father is Anton LaVey, so creating religions out of thin air is in my blood.
#8
Covar
Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.[/QUOTE]
Because we have Freedom of Religion, and I don't recall anyone prominent In this country calling it Dangerous.
Covar
Because you can hide a money making scheme in religious trappings based on a bad sci-fi novelist's writings?WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States."Religious freedom is in danger in this country," said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to "recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology."
Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.[/QUOTE]
Because we have Freedom of Religion, and I don't recall anyone prominent In this country calling it Dangerous.
#9
drawn_inward
I may not like or agree with Scientology, but if people want to give their money to them, who cares. People throw their money away on the lottery everyday. Isn't that fraud? Isn't that preying on false hopes, and desperateness?
drawn_inward
QFT. What's next? Are they going to go after the Muslims?Because we have Freedom of Religion, and I don't recall anyone prominent In this country calling it Dangerous.
I may not like or agree with Scientology, but if people want to give their money to them, who cares. People throw their money away on the lottery everyday. Isn't that fraud? Isn't that preying on false hopes, and desperateness?
#10
Dave
Dave
That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.
Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
#11
Baerdog
Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.[/quote]
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and invest in your scheme.
If it helps, my biological father is Anton LaVey, so creating religions out of thin air is in my blood.[/QUOTE]
I'm gonna have to call bullshit there Dave. Your goatee isn't nearly awesome enough to be one of his kids.
Baerdog
Because you can hide a money making scheme in religious trappings based on a bad sci-fi novelist's writings?WOW, I'm glad I live in the United States.\"Religious freedom is in danger in this country,\" said Celebrity Centre spokesman Eric Roux after the verdict, urging France to \"recognise the legality of the Church of Scientology.\"
Man . . . actually, that kinda makes me wish I lived in the US. I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.[/quote]
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and invest in your scheme.
If it helps, my biological father is Anton LaVey, so creating religions out of thin air is in my blood.[/QUOTE]
I'm gonna have to call bullshit there Dave. Your goatee isn't nearly awesome enough to be one of his kids.
#12
drawn_inward
The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.
drawn_inward
If they have committed crimes, then they should be convicted.That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.
Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.
#13
Kitty Sinatra
If it helps, my biological father is Anton LaVey, so creating religions out of thin air is in my blood.[/QUOTE]
Awesome. Not that you need more convincing, but see, I figure the Church of Psychohistory should easily topple Scientology. I mean, I'm basing it off a good sci-fi novelist.
Kitty Sinatra
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and invest in your scheme.I've got this idea of how I can sell calculators, computers and statistical information all-wrapped up in religious trappings with the 3 laws of psychohistory at the core.
If it helps, my biological father is Anton LaVey, so creating religions out of thin air is in my blood.[/QUOTE]
Awesome. Not that you need more convincing, but see, I figure the Church of Psychohistory should easily topple Scientology. I mean, I'm basing it off a good sci-fi novelist.
#14
Dave
The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.[/QUOTE]
When does an organization move from cult to religion status? When does the workings of a tax exempt organization move into the realm of business?
Scientology is a great example of an organization hiding behind stupid laws to get away from paying taxes while making the leaders as rich as possible on the backs of those who are weak willed and easily led astray.
Dave
If they have committed crimes, then they should be convicted.That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.
Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.[/QUOTE]
When does an organization move from cult to religion status? When does the workings of a tax exempt organization move into the realm of business?
Scientology is a great example of an organization hiding behind stupid laws to get away from paying taxes while making the leaders as rich as possible on the backs of those who are weak willed and easily led astray.
#15
Bowielee
The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.[/quote]
When does an organization move from cult to religion status? When does the workings of a tax exempt organization move into the realm of business?
Scientology is a great example of an organization hiding behind stupid laws to get away from paying taxes while making the leaders as rich as possible on the backs of those who are weak willed and easily led astray.[/QUOTE]
One could say that the major religions do the same thing... just putting that out there.
Bowielee
If they have committed crimes, then they should be convicted.That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.
Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.[/quote]
When does an organization move from cult to religion status? When does the workings of a tax exempt organization move into the realm of business?
Scientology is a great example of an organization hiding behind stupid laws to get away from paying taxes while making the leaders as rich as possible on the backs of those who are weak willed and easily led astray.[/QUOTE]
One could say that the major religions do the same thing... just putting that out there.
#16
Dave
The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.[/quote]
When does an organization move from cult to religion status? When does the workings of a tax exempt organization move into the realm of business?
Scientology is a great example of an organization hiding behind stupid laws to get away from paying taxes while making the leaders as rich as possible on the backs of those who are weak willed and easily led astray.[/quote]
One could say that the major religions do the same thing... just putting that out there.[/QUOTE]
I have, too. But Scientology is even more nefarious in their means than the more mainstream religions.
And Anton and I look a lot alike and we have the same mannerisms and vocal patterning. I was adopted and my bio father was born on the same day as him. Maybe a big coincidence, but it makes for an excellent story.
Dave
If they have committed crimes, then they should be convicted.That's because politicians in this country are afraid of being sued and are able to be bought off.
Scientology is an evil organization that has as much to do with real religion as Congress.
The big worry that I have is that there are certain things I believe that are protected, but may be attacked one day. There are plenty of groups that are going after crosses and nativity scenes. To me, this is a sign of things to come.[/quote]
When does an organization move from cult to religion status? When does the workings of a tax exempt organization move into the realm of business?
Scientology is a great example of an organization hiding behind stupid laws to get away from paying taxes while making the leaders as rich as possible on the backs of those who are weak willed and easily led astray.[/quote]
One could say that the major religions do the same thing... just putting that out there.[/QUOTE]
I have, too. But Scientology is even more nefarious in their means than the more mainstream religions.
And Anton and I look a lot alike and we have the same mannerisms and vocal patterning. I was adopted and my bio father was born on the same day as him. Maybe a big coincidence, but it makes for an excellent story.
#17
Baerdog
Baerdog
And a story you should keep telling. I was just messing with you.
#18
Dave
Dave
I've thought several times about contacting his kids and going for a DNA test. Truthfully I don't know whether I'd be happy or sad regardless of the result.And a story you should keep telling. I was just messing with you.
#19
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
Question, why should any religion have tax exemption? Really, that just bugs me, okay, they believe in the boggie sky-santa that causes hurricanes, why should this means that they shouldn't pay like everybody does?
#20
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
They have tax exempt status because they, historically and now, provide a lot of charity. Other charities are tax exempt, too.
#21
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Because they do God's work here on Earth.Question, why should any religion have tax exemption? Really, that just bugs me, okay, they believe in the boggie sky-santa that causes hurricanes, why should this means that they shouldn't pay like everybody does?
#22
Soliloquy
edit: ninja'd.
Soliloquy
Lots of non-profit organizations are tax exempt, not just churches.Question, why should any religion have tax exemption? Really, that just bugs me, okay, they believe in the boggie sky-santa that causes hurricanes, why should this means that they shouldn't pay like everybody does?
edit: ninja'd.
#23
Iaculus
Then TAX GOD.
You know He's up for it...
Iaculus
Because they do God's work here on Earth.[/QUOTE]Question, why should any religion have tax exemption? Really, that just bugs me, okay, they believe in the boggie sky-santa that causes hurricanes, why should this means that they shouldn't pay like everybody does?
Then TAX GOD.
You know He's up for it...
#24
Tinwhistler
Tinwhistler
#25
Soliloquy
Soliloquy
Yeah, most people defending Scientology tend to forget that it actually is an evil organization bent on world domination.
#26
drawn_inward
drawn_inward
I get that Scientology is behind some bad stuff. Prosecute them for that. Screwing weak-minded people out of their money has been going on since the invention of money or traded goods.
If they murdered people, prove it. Otherwise, it's conjecture and conspiracy theories.
It sounds like the Free Mason stuff.
I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
If they murdered people, prove it. Otherwise, it's conjecture and conspiracy theories.
It sounds like the Free Mason stuff.
I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
#27
ThatGrinningIdiot!
ThatGrinningIdiot!
If you want evidence badly enough, I'd recommend joining your local Scientology church to observe their inner workings for yourself.I get that Scientology is behind some bad stuff. Prosecute them for that. Screwing weak-minded people out of their money has been going on since the invention of money or traded goods.
If they murdered people, prove it. Otherwise, it's conjecture and conspiracy theories.
It sounds like the Free Mason stuff.
I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
#28
Tinwhistler
Tinwhistler
I dated and lived with a scientologist for 5 years. i think i can speak with some authority on the subject.
"Scientology is quite likely the most ruthless, the most classically terroristic, the most litigious and the most lucrative cult the country has ever seen. No cult extracts more money from its members."
-- Cynthia Kisser, The Cult Awareness Network.
Note, CAN was later sued into oblivion and taken over by Scientology. I wouldn't contact them now for any information on the CoS
"Scientology is quite likely the most ruthless, the most classically terroristic, the most litigious and the most lucrative cult the country has ever seen. No cult extracts more money from its members."
-- Cynthia Kisser, The Cult Awareness Network.
Note, CAN was later sued into oblivion and taken over by Scientology. I wouldn't contact them now for any information on the CoS
#29
Rob King
Rob King
You just broke my brain.Then TAX GOD.
You know He's up for it...
#30
drawn_inward
Have you done this? Have any of you done this?
You are all believing youtube videos? Do you all believe the Zeitgeist video too?
I am a Christian. I fear actions against the religion will lead to a future attack on my religion. Again, I say, if the individuals of the religion are committing crimes, convict them, not the religion.
drawn_inward
If you want evidence badly enough, I'd recommend joining your local Scientology church to observe their inner workings for yourself.[/QUOTE]I get that Scientology is behind some bad stuff. Prosecute them for that. Screwing weak-minded people out of their money has been going on since the invention of money or traded goods.
If they murdered people, prove it. Otherwise, it's conjecture and conspiracy theories.
It sounds like the Free Mason stuff.
I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
Have you done this? Have any of you done this?
You are all believing youtube videos? Do you all believe the Zeitgeist video too?
I am a Christian. I fear actions against the religion will lead to a future attack on my religion. Again, I say, if the individuals of the religion are committing crimes, convict them, not the religion.
#31
Soliloquy
Soliloquy
Isn't that what just happened?I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
#32
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
Or just look at the court documents of the trial in France where the organization itself was found guilty of fraud.
#33
drawn_inward
No, they fined the church. Go after the individuals committing crimes, and I will support that.
Just like their are terrorist cells of folks of the Muslim faith. They need to be brought to justice, not the religion. Should we fine Islam for 911?
EDIT:
I can see why my posts would be seen as a defense of Scientology. Believe me, I believe they are a cult, and are up to no good. I think they should go down, but there needs to be a way to do this that can't be transferred to another religion (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc).
drawn_inward
Isn't that what just happened?[/quote]I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
No, they fined the church. Go after the individuals committing crimes, and I will support that.
Just like their are terrorist cells of folks of the Muslim faith. They need to be brought to justice, not the religion. Should we fine Islam for 911?
EDIT:
I can see why my posts would be seen as a defense of Scientology. Believe me, I believe they are a cult, and are up to no good. I think they should go down, but there needs to be a way to do this that can't be transferred to another religion (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc).
#34
Soliloquy
No, they fined the church. Go after the individuals committing crimes, and I will support that.
Just like their are terrorist cells of folks of the Muslim faith. They need to be brought to justice, not the religion. Should we fine Islam for 911?[/QUOTE]
We're talking an organization here, though. not a philosophy.
Do you think that organizations should be exempt from criminal charges? I guess that's a legitimate viewpoint, but it's not the way the world works at present.
Soliloquy
Isn't that what just happened?[/QUOTE]I'm not defending Scientology. I am defending Freedom of Religion. If people in the religion are breaking the law, prosecute them.
No, they fined the church. Go after the individuals committing crimes, and I will support that.
Just like their are terrorist cells of folks of the Muslim faith. They need to be brought to justice, not the religion. Should we fine Islam for 911?[/QUOTE]
We're talking an organization here, though. not a philosophy.
Do you think that organizations should be exempt from criminal charges? I guess that's a legitimate viewpoint, but it's not the way the world works at present.
#35
Tinwhistler
L. Ron Hubbard himself said Scientology wasn't a religion in his book Creation of Human Ability (which is considered "Source" and therefore infallible). Scientology was originally an applied philosophy that converted to a religion in one day via a policy bulletin put forth. Policy Bulletins are also considered "Source" (straight from Hubbard) and therefore infallible;
This is what the Scientologists I have personally known have felt and believed.
Organizations can be corrupt, evil, or destructive. We have plenty of examples: The mafia, the nazi party (whoops, godwin'd!), etc. At some point, you can look at an organization and call the thing as a whole bad, and not just the misguided actions of a few bad apples.
Tinwhistler
Have you done this? Have any of you done this?
Scientologists don't consider what they do a religion. It's a "shore story"..a lie told to outsiders. Scientology considers what they do a technology. An applied philosophy. A practical practice that will eventually grant them powers. It's "Tech".I dated and lived with a scientologist for 5 years. i think i can speak with some authority on the subject.
L. Ron Hubbard himself said Scientology wasn't a religion in his book Creation of Human Ability (which is considered "Source" and therefore infallible). Scientology was originally an applied philosophy that converted to a religion in one day via a policy bulletin put forth. Policy Bulletins are also considered "Source" (straight from Hubbard) and therefore infallible;
In the man's own words, it was merely a tax matter. A way to use Freedom of Religion as a shield against governement, and later, as a sword against critics.Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter
(HCOPL) 29 Oct. 1962, "Religion"
"Scientology 1970 is being planned on a religious organization
basis throughout the world. This will not upset in any way the
usual activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for
accountants and solicitors."
This is what the Scientologists I have personally known have felt and believed.
Organizations can be corrupt, evil, or destructive. We have plenty of examples: The mafia, the nazi party (whoops, godwin'd!), etc. At some point, you can look at an organization and call the thing as a whole bad, and not just the misguided actions of a few bad apples.
#36
drawn_inward
L. Ron Hubbard himself said Scientology wasn't a religion in his book Creation of Human Ability (which is considered "Source" and therefore infallible). Scientology was originally an applied philosophy that converted to a religion in one day via a policy bulletin put forth. Policy Bulletins are also considered "Source" (straight from Hubbard) and therefore infallible;
This is what the Scientologists I have personally known have felt and believed.[/QUOTE]
Tin, et al., I am well aware of all this stuff. I've seen all the videos and websites.
As I said above, I do not support Scientology or their methods. They are a cult. This I understand.
If you tell me that I don't have anything to worry about regarding my religion being in the crosshairs next, then I'll back down from this argument.
drawn_inward
Have you done this? Have any of you done this?
Scientologists don't consider what they do a religion. It's a "shore story"..a lie told to outsiders. Scientology considers what they do a technology. An applied philosophy. A practical practice that will eventually grant them powers. It's "Tech".I dated and lived with a scientologist for 5 years. i think i can speak with some authority on the subject.
L. Ron Hubbard himself said Scientology wasn't a religion in his book Creation of Human Ability (which is considered "Source" and therefore infallible). Scientology was originally an applied philosophy that converted to a religion in one day via a policy bulletin put forth. Policy Bulletins are also considered "Source" (straight from Hubbard) and therefore infallible;
In the man's own words, it was merely a tax matter. A way to use Freedom of Religion as a shield against governement, and later, as a sword against critics.Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter
(HCOPL) 29 Oct. 1962, "Religion"
"Scientology 1970 is being planned on a religious organization
basis throughout the world. This will not upset in any way the
usual activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for
accountants and solicitors."
This is what the Scientologists I have personally known have felt and believed.[/QUOTE]
Tin, et al., I am well aware of all this stuff. I've seen all the videos and websites.
As I said above, I do not support Scientology or their methods. They are a cult. This I understand.
If you tell me that I don't have anything to worry about regarding my religion being in the crosshairs next, then I'll back down from this argument.
#37
Tinwhistler
Tinwhistler
I could give a shit what you worry about, or if you back down, personally. It has nothing to do with you or your personal beliefs.
The government already has the ability to label organizations as 'criminal organizations". They've had it since RICO statutes came into being. It has nothing to do with your church at all, you big drama queen.
The government already has the ability to label organizations as 'criminal organizations". They've had it since RICO statutes came into being. It has nothing to do with your church at all, you big drama queen.
#38
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
You have nothing to worry about regarding your religion in the crosshairs next.
Remember when priests were caught diddling little boys? There were no calls by the authorities to take down the church. The major religions are not treated like Scientology.
Remember when priests were caught diddling little boys? There were no calls by the authorities to take down the church. The major religions are not treated like Scientology.
#39
Soliloquy
But as for the current case, we have a single, unified organization willfully using its resources to break the law. I have no problem with prosecuting said organization.
Soliloquy
I do have to admit, I get apprehensive when I see people using the movement against Scientology as a stepping-stone for attacking religion as a whole. There may very well be a legitimate concern there.Tin, et al., I am well aware of all this stuff. I've seen all the videos and websites.
As I said above, I do not support Scientology or their methods. They are a cult. This I understand.
If you tell me that I don't have anything to worry about regarding my religion being in the crosshairs next, then I'll back down from this argument.
But as for the current case, we have a single, unified organization willfully using its resources to break the law. I have no problem with prosecuting said organization.
#40
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
This. and Gruebeard's.I could give a shit what you worry about, or if you back down, personally. It has nothing to do with you or your personal beliefs.
The government already has the ability to label organizations as 'criminal organizations". They've had it since RICO statutes came into being. It has nothing to do with your church at all, you big drama queen.
#41
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Everytime I got ready to post, Tinwhistler hit my point. I also know an ex-scientologist's spouse, the "real" details are alot more frightening than any Youtube videos.
Don't worry Drawn_Inward, whatever happens to Scientology will be dealt with as they distance it FROM a religion and more to a business practice. So they won't be persecuting a religion, just a business.
Don't worry Drawn_Inward, whatever happens to Scientology will be dealt with as they distance it FROM a religion and more to a business practice. So they won't be persecuting a religion, just a business.
#42
Soliloquy
Soliloquy
I do love that Scientology gives us all an excuse to wear Guy Fawkes masks, though.
It'd be a shame to see that go away.
It'd be a shame to see that go away.
#43
drawn_inward
drawn_inward
I couldn't have asked for a better banner right now.Halforums banner said:Your opinion is wrong, and stupid
Those are cool.I do love that Scientology gives us all an excuse to wear Guy Fawkes masks, though.
It'd be a shame to see that go away.
#44
Tinwhistler
The All-knowing Halforum Banner tells ME "Can't stop the signal."
Tinwhistler
Maybe you should take heed to the sky voice, then, and change your opinion.I couldn't have asked for a better banner right now.Halforums banner said:Your opinion is wrong, and stupid
The All-knowing Halforum Banner tells ME "Can't stop the signal."
#45
SpecialKO
The All-knowing Halforum Banner tells ME "Can't stop the signal."[/QUOTE]
The banner only changes in the default theme, I think.
SpecialKO
Maybe you should take heed to the sky voice, then, and change your opinion.I couldn't have asked for a better banner right now.Halforums banner said:Your opinion is wrong, and stupid
The All-knowing Halforum Banner tells ME "Can't stop the signal."[/QUOTE]
The banner only changes in the default theme, I think.
#46
Iaculus
Then my work here is done. :toocool:
Incidentally, I also advocate a nuclear deterrent just in case the fundies are right and the bastard's going to descend to earth and bring about the End Times. I swear, the next person, spirit, or celestial being to try Rapturing this household is going to get a grenade to the face.
Iaculus
You just broke my brain.[/QUOTE]Then TAX GOD.
You know He's up for it...
Then my work here is done. :toocool:
Incidentally, I also advocate a nuclear deterrent just in case the fundies are right and the bastard's going to descend to earth and bring about the End Times. I swear, the next person, spirit, or celestial being to try Rapturing this household is going to get a grenade to the face.
#47
Shegokigo
The All-knowing Halforum Banner tells ME "Can't stop the signal."[/QUOTE]
I think Drawn_Inward already listens to enough "voices in the sky". :slywink:
Shegokigo
Maybe you should take heed to the sky voice, then, and change your opinion.I couldn't have asked for a better banner right now.Halforums banner said:Your opinion is wrong, and stupid
The All-knowing Halforum Banner tells ME "Can't stop the signal."[/QUOTE]
I think Drawn_Inward already listens to enough "voices in the sky". :slywink:
#48
Bowielee
Bowielee
Insert ubiquitous Flying Spaghetti Monster reference [here].
#49
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
damn. I used up all my tags already. Flying Spaghetti Monster needs to be added so that CoS is in the company it deserves.
#50
Bowielee
Bowielee
Added 
#51
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
I was thinking more along the lines of:Insert ubiquitous Flying Spaghetti Monster reference [here].
#52
Pallywhackr
If I were to work for a company that installs home security systems, and installed the system incorrectly causing a family to be robbed that family wouldn't press charges against me personally. They'd go after the company I represent.
If the Church of Scientology knowingly accepts the money received from donations made by victims of fraud, the organization is just as responsible.
Pallywhackr
Their actions were performed in the name of the church. As the church's representative they open up their organization to their mistakes.I am a Christian. I fear actions against the religion will lead to a future attack on my religion. Again, I say, if the individuals of the religion are committing crimes, convict them, not the religion.
If I were to work for a company that installs home security systems, and installed the system incorrectly causing a family to be robbed that family wouldn't press charges against me personally. They'd go after the company I represent.
If the Church of Scientology knowingly accepts the money received from donations made by victims of fraud, the organization is just as responsible.
#53
Tinwhistler
Tinwhistler
It goes beyond that. Many of CoS shenanigans are a direct result of hubbard policy, not just some wayward member's hijinks.
That puts the blame square at the feet of the organization.
That puts the blame square at the feet of the organization.
#54
Pallywhackr
Pallywhackr
Maybe a slight tweak to me metaphor then...It goes beyond that. Many of CoS shenanigans are a direct result of hubbard policy, not just some wayward member's hijinks.
That puts the blame square at the feet of the organization.
If I were to work for a company that installs home security systems, and installed the system, using instructions known by my employer to be faulty, causing a family to be robbed that family wouldn't press charges against me personally. They'd go after the company I represent.
#55
Iaculus
Iaculus
Ye gods, why? Was there some kind of ugly precedent they were trying to get rid of or something?But last month the French courts were alerted to a little-noticed legal change voted in by parliament in May -- the month the trial opened -- which bars judges from dissolving an organisation convicted of fraud.
#56
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
France doesn't use precedent law, so that wouldn't be the reason
#57
Iaculus
Seriously, that law has nothing to do with freedom of religion - it sounds about as smart as those senators who voted pro-rape a while back.
Iaculus
Ah, so just rampant corruption, then.France doesn't use precedent law, so that wouldn't be the reason
Seriously, that law has nothing to do with freedom of religion - it sounds about as smart as those senators who voted pro-rape a while back.
#58
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
...pro-rape? I am afraid to ask.
#59
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
a woman working for an american company in Iraq was raped by her coworkers. She is unable to sue the company because she waived that right in her employment contract.
Senator Franken, after learning about this, drafted legislation to make it so that next time this happens, the employee can sue. Several senators voted against the bill and have thus been labeled pro-rape.
Senator Franken, after learning about this, drafted legislation to make it so that next time this happens, the employee can sue. Several senators voted against the bill and have thus been labeled pro-rape.
#60
Bowielee
Bowielee
Though I do agree that the label of pro-rape is akin to calling pro-choicers pro-abortionists, I DO find it funny that many of those senators are the ones who wanted to impeach Clinton.
So, BJ in the oval office bad.... rape good?
So, BJ in the oval office bad.... rape good?
#61
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
It's about traditional family values, and as we all know, traditional family values state that the woman should know her place: silent, pregnant, and in the kitchen!Though I do agree that the label of pro-rape is akin to calling pro-choicers pro-abortionists, I DO find it funny that many of those senators are the ones who wanted to impeach Clinton.
So, BJ in the oval office bad.... rape good?
#62
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
I totally agree that the "pro-rape" label is silly.
But I also don't get their objection to that bill at all, and I think i might be good to point out they are monumental morons. Though I know it's possible that maybe someone actually had a good reason to vote against the bill, I haven't heard anything at all sane.
But I also don't get their objection to that bill at all, and I think i might be good to point out they are monumental morons. Though I know it's possible that maybe someone actually had a good reason to vote against the bill, I haven't heard anything at all sane.
#63
Bowielee
As we all know, profits > human life and dignity. Well, at least according to conservatives.
Bowielee
The same reason as always, they don't want to cross their constituents, who just happen to own these companies. It opens them to potential lawsuits, which is bad for profits.I totally agree that the "pro-rape" label is silly.
But I also don't get their objection to that bill at all, and I think i might be good to point out they are monumental morons. Though I know it's possible that maybe someone actually had a good reason to vote against the bill, I haven't heard anything at all sane.
As we all know, profits > human life and dignity. Well, at least according to conservatives.
#64
Iaculus
- Krusty the clown[/QUOTE]
Dude - you said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.
Iaculus
you could say the bill moved them INTO A BIGGER HOUSEI totally agree that the "pro-rape" label is silly.
But I also don't get their objection to that bill at all, and I think i might be good to point out they are monumental morons. Though I know it's possible that maybe someone actually had a good reason to vote against the bill, I haven't heard anything at all sane.
- Krusty the clown[/QUOTE]
Dude - you said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.
#65
Dave
- Krusty the clown[/quote]
Dude - you said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.[/QUOTE]
Remind me to say this in Krusty's voice for the next podcast.
Dave
you could say the bill moved them INTO A BIGGER HOUSEI totally agree that the "pro-rape" label is silly.
But I also don't get their objection to that bill at all, and I think i might be good to point out they are monumental morons. Though I know it's possible that maybe someone actually had a good reason to vote against the bill, I haven't heard anything at all sane.
- Krusty the clown[/quote]
Dude - you said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.[/QUOTE]
Remind me to say this in Krusty's voice for the next podcast.
#66
Philosopher B.
Philosopher B.
Fuck yeah France. Shame they couldn't get the full ban.
#67
Hailey Knight
- Krusty the clown[/quote]
Dude - you said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.[/QUOTE]
Remind me to say this in Krusty's voice for the next podcast.[/QUOTE]
Can you do Krusty's voice?
Hailey Knight
you could say the bill moved them INTO A BIGGER HOUSEI totally agree that the "pro-rape" label is silly.
But I also don't get their objection to that bill at all, and I think i might be good to point out they are monumental morons. Though I know it's possible that maybe someone actually had a good reason to vote against the bill, I haven't heard anything at all sane.
- Krusty the clown[/quote]
Dude - you said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.[/QUOTE]
Remind me to say this in Krusty's voice for the next podcast.[/QUOTE]
Can you do Krusty's voice?
#68
Dave
- Krusty the clown[/quote]
Dude - you said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.[/quote]
Remind me to say this in Krusty's voice for the next podcast.[/quote]
Can you do Krusty's voice?[/QUOTE]
Spot on, baby! One of my best voices.
Dave
you could say the bill moved them INTO A BIGGER HOUSEI totally agree that the "pro-rape" label is silly.
But I also don't get their objection to that bill at all, and I think i might be good to point out they are monumental morons. Though I know it's possible that maybe someone actually had a good reason to vote against the bill, I haven't heard anything at all sane.
- Krusty the clown[/quote]
Dude - you said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud.[/quote]
Remind me to say this in Krusty's voice for the next podcast.[/quote]
Can you do Krusty's voice?[/QUOTE]
Spot on, baby! One of my best voices.
#69
WolfOfOdin
WolfOfOdin
Ha ha! Yay!
Regarding Inward's opinions,
I agree that religion in and of itself shouldn't be attacked. Worship Glorfax the ant-eater who shat out the universe after binge drinking, as long as your religion doesn't promote the active harming, decieving or destruction of a person or persons as a major tennant, I have no problem with it.
That's why I have such a problem with Scientology and why I get irked when it shrieks "Religious persecution" when ANYONE says anything bad about it. The SeaOrg folk are more or less slaves to their higher-ups, the religion actively encourages severing all ties with anyone who disagrees with you and has a core practice of character and financial assassination towards its nay-sayers. For god's sakes, they tried to implicate a critical writer in a bomb threat, going as far as to steal her letterhead and plant it. That crosses the line from religious wack-job condeming gay people to cartoonish supervillany
Regarding Inward's opinions,
I agree that religion in and of itself shouldn't be attacked. Worship Glorfax the ant-eater who shat out the universe after binge drinking, as long as your religion doesn't promote the active harming, decieving or destruction of a person or persons as a major tennant, I have no problem with it.
That's why I have such a problem with Scientology and why I get irked when it shrieks "Religious persecution" when ANYONE says anything bad about it. The SeaOrg folk are more or less slaves to their higher-ups, the religion actively encourages severing all ties with anyone who disagrees with you and has a core practice of character and financial assassination towards its nay-sayers. For god's sakes, they tried to implicate a critical writer in a bomb threat, going as far as to steal her letterhead and plant it. That crosses the line from religious wack-job condeming gay people to cartoonish supervillany
#70
Math242
Math242
the fight won't be over until Miscavige is in jail