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Fucking World of Warcraft!
#1
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
....back in 2004-2006 I was a WoW junkie, and complete in the dark about Elder Scrolls Oblivion. I just recently bought the super-duper deluxe pack with all the expansions and do dads for 25 bucks on Steam. Holy shit, for an older game, it's fucking fun and visually amazing.
#2
Snuffleupagus
Snuffleupagus
I recently resubscribed also.. Damnit I love this game.....back in 2004-2006 I was a WoW junkie, and complete in the dark about Elder Scrolls Oblivion. I just recently bought the super-duper deluxe pack with all the expansions and do dads for 25 bucks on Steam. Holy shit, for an older game, it's fucking fun and visually amazing.
#3
Dave
Dave
It's Fallout3 with swords and magic.
#4
Baerdog
Baerdog
To be fair, Fallout 3 had swords too.
#5
Dave
Dave
Way to ruin the joke, Baer.
#6
Baerdog
Baerdog
Old man's getting cranky. Looks like it's time for your nap.
#7
Seraphyn
Seraphyn
I especially like how they handled magic in that game. It flowed(?) very nicely in combat.
#8
LordRendar
LordRendar
I really didnt like Oblivion. I really tried to,but it didnt work for me. But i concede that it is a very nicely made game,where the programmers and devs really put a lot of thought and passion into.
#9
MindDetective
MindDetective
I concurI really didnt like Oblivion. I really tried to,but it didnt work for me. But i concede that it is a very nicely made game,where the programmers and devs really put a lot of thought and passion into.
#10
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
The only thing I didn't like about Oblivion is that the setting wasn't as strange or fantastic as Morrowind was. The Shivering Isle fixed that.
#11
ScytheRexx
Oh, and since this has WarCraft in the name, anyone else excited about the retaking of Gnomeregan?
ScytheRexx
I didn't like it because of how lumpy the characters looked most of the time. Mostly the elves and such. Morrowind has a good style if not a bit ugly, Oblivion just looked awkward. In the end I got bored with it a lot faster then I was expecting, Morrowind and Fallout 3 I find far superior to it.The only thing I didn't like about Oblivion is that the setting wasn't as strange or fantastic as Morrowind was.
Oh, and since this has WarCraft in the name, anyone else excited about the retaking of Gnomeregan?
#12
fade
fade
I also didn't care much for Oblivion or Morrowind. I simply don't have the time for such an open format game. Give me some linearity, or else I'll never get anywhere.
#13
Chibibar
Chibibar
Like fallout 3, you can mod it to pretty much look the way you want it. 
#14
Dave
Dave
I LOVE the open format. You lead me around by the nose and I get bored quick.
The only thing I didn't like about Oblivion was that nowhere in the map was there a God damned PLAIN! The terrain went from hills to big fucking hills to OMFGMOUNTAINS!!
The only thing I didn't like about Oblivion was that nowhere in the map was there a God damned PLAIN! The terrain went from hills to big fucking hills to OMFGMOUNTAINS!!
#15
Math242
Math242
Oblivion is just an empty shell when compared to Morrowind. yet, it's still fun.
#16
Chazwozel
Oh, and since this has WarCraft in the name, anyone else excited about the retaking of Gnomeregan?[/QUOTE]
WHAT!??! THEY'RE RETAKING GNOMER?!??!?!?!?!?! FUCK YOU BLIZZARD FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU! I THOUGHT I WAS DONE <SOBS IN A CORNER>
When is this happening Scythe? Next xpac or before?
Chazwozel
I didn't like it because of how lumpy the characters looked most of the time. Mostly the elves and such. Morrowind has a good style if not a bit ugly, Oblivion just looked awkward. In the end I got bored with it a lot faster then I was expecting, Morrowind and Fallout 3 I find far superior to it.The only thing I didn't like about Oblivion is that the setting wasn't as strange or fantastic as Morrowind was.
Oh, and since this has WarCraft in the name, anyone else excited about the retaking of Gnomeregan?
[/QUOTE]WHAT!??! THEY'RE RETAKING GNOMER?!??!?!?!?!?! FUCK YOU BLIZZARD FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU! I THOUGHT I WAS DONE <SOBS IN A CORNER>
When is this happening Scythe? Next xpac or before?
#17
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
I hope the XPac will be phased. That the old world does not go away until after your character reaches 80.
#18
Chazwozel
It's not. That I do know. Level 1-60 characters will have a new experience though.
Chazwozel
I hope the XPac will be phased. That the old world does not go away until after your character reaches 80.
It's not. That I do know. Level 1-60 characters will have a new experience though.
#19
Chibibar
It's not. That I do know. Level 1-60 characters will have a new experience though.[/QUOTE]
You can probably bet there will be a "time warp" or something where players can visit the old world and play
Chibibar
I hope the XPac will be phased. That the old world does not go away until after your character reaches 80.
It's not. That I do know. Level 1-60 characters will have a new experience though.[/QUOTE]
You can probably bet there will be a "time warp" or something where players can visit the old world and play
#20
darkangel6988
darkangel6988
I just started WoW on a trial yesterday......I'm hooked and only at level 5 !
#21
ScytheRexx
Rumor one, is that the whole thing will be a pre-cataclysm event added in the same patch as the Ruby Sanctum, and will basically be how Blizzard explains the new class combos for the gnomes and trolls while giving them both a viable city that we can visit in the revamped old world, the Gnomes being based out of Gnomeregan's upper levels (thus retaining the lower instance) and Trolls based out of a rebuilt Echo Isles.
Rumor two, is that they are redesigning the starting zones for each race to better match the phased starting zones of the DKs, Goblins, and Worgen, thus allowing them to have more involved story. This rumor is less credible because no starting zones have Achievements tied to them, while the retaking of Gnomeregan has a Feat of Strength tied to it based on the data we collected.
In anticipation of this, the latest PTR has updated gear for both Mekkatorque and Vol'jin NPCs, making them a little more imposing then they were in their old school rags. Now if only they would give Thrall a unique model, poor guy is probably the most popular character in WarCraft and friggin Anduin Wrynn is getting a unique model before him.
ScytheRexx
Not sure. The data for the event started spilling into the latest patch. They added quest data and achievements about recruiting forces to retake the city, or at least part of it from what we gather. They also added stuff for the Trolls involving the retaking of the Echo Isles. Two rumors seem to circulate the most about it.When is this happening Scythe? Next xpac or before?
Rumor one, is that the whole thing will be a pre-cataclysm event added in the same patch as the Ruby Sanctum, and will basically be how Blizzard explains the new class combos for the gnomes and trolls while giving them both a viable city that we can visit in the revamped old world, the Gnomes being based out of Gnomeregan's upper levels (thus retaining the lower instance) and Trolls based out of a rebuilt Echo Isles.
Rumor two, is that they are redesigning the starting zones for each race to better match the phased starting zones of the DKs, Goblins, and Worgen, thus allowing them to have more involved story. This rumor is less credible because no starting zones have Achievements tied to them, while the retaking of Gnomeregan has a Feat of Strength tied to it based on the data we collected.
In anticipation of this, the latest PTR has updated gear for both Mekkatorque and Vol'jin NPCs, making them a little more imposing then they were in their old school rags. Now if only they would give Thrall a unique model, poor guy is probably the most popular character in WarCraft and friggin Anduin Wrynn is getting a unique model before him.
Another lamb to the slaug... errr I mean welcome!I just started WoW on a trial yesterday......I'm hooked and only at level 5 !
#22
Necronic
Necronic
Oblivion is a fantastic game. The trick to it is that you HAVE to mod it. The difficulty scaling in the game is not executed well. The best mod for fixing this issue (and generally just making the game more filled with awesome is Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul. Also, why waste your time going back to WoW? You know you'll just have to spend hours grinding to hit that level cap, and all the gear you got is no longer any good. All your time, it amounts to nothing now. That is how Blizzard treats its players. And you want to go back to that? Its a classic case of Battered Person Syndrome. You know you will be abused, but yet you go back to her. "She didn't mean to hurt me, I deserved it."
Bah. Come check out EvE. The game is abusive, but in a much healthier way. It's like the difference between someone who gets drunk and beats on you and someone who busts out the riding crop and gives you the safe word.
Bah. Come check out EvE. The game is abusive, but in a much healthier way. It's like the difference between someone who gets drunk and beats on you and someone who busts out the riding crop and gives you the safe word.
#23
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
All my gold, to my brother, uninstall WoW in a few days, hurray!
#24
ScytheRexx
ScytheRexx
Or you know, it amounts to enjoying yourself, like any other game. If you treat the game like nothing but a grind, that is all it will become to you. That goes for WoW, EvE, Final Fantasy, Hello Kitty Island, etc... Acting like EvE is "healthier" worthless grind is just being silly.All your time, it amounts to nothing now.
#25
darkangel6988
Do you play cuz i could really use some help conquering a quest ......I dont much about what im doing but it sure is fun to pass the time while my hubby is away at school !
darkangel6988
Or you know, it amounts to enjoying yourself, like any other game. If you treat the game like nothing but a grind, that is all it will become to you. That goes for WoW, EvE, Final Fantasy, Hello Kitty Island, etc... Acting like EvE is "healthier" worthless grind is just being silly.[/QUOTE]All your time, it amounts to nothing now.
Do you play cuz i could really use some help conquering a quest ......I dont much about what im doing but it sure is fun to pass the time while my hubby is away at school !
#26
CynicismKills
It's the same waste either way dude, it's just based on the gameplay you prefer.
CynicismKills
Yeah, don't waste your time on that MMO, waste your time on this MMO!Oblivion is a fantastic game. The trick to it is that you HAVE to mod it. The difficulty scaling in the game is not executed well. The best mod for fixing this issue (and generally just making the game more filled with awesome is Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul. Also, why waste your time going back to WoW? You know you'll just have to spend hours grinding to hit that level cap, and all the gear you got is no longer any good. All your time, it amounts to nothing now. That is how Blizzard treats its players. And you want to go back to that? Its a classic case of Battered Person Syndrome. You know you will be abused, but yet you go back to her. "She didn't mean to hurt me, I deserved it."
Bah. Come check out EvE. The game is abusive, but in a much healthier way. It's like the difference between someone who gets drunk and beats on you and someone who busts out the riding crop and gives you the safe word.
It's the same waste either way dude, it's just based on the gameplay you prefer.
#27
Necronic
That sounds good and all, except for 3 things:
1) The expansion of gameplay in WoW only exists in end game. The only way to get to end game is to grind xp. Yes, you can run missions and chat and have fun and never hit end game in wow, but then, you aren't really playing (like actually playing) with many other people (since low lvl systems are always underpopulated) and you will also never see the new exciting fun stuff, because Blizzard explicitly caters to the end game. Except at christmas time.....
2) There is no end game in EvE. There is no real differentiation between a new player and an old one. Sometime soon (maybe this weekend) we are doing a pvp tourney with all the new players from the forum and at the end of it they will be going against me. I have 3 some odd years of play time under my belt, and I could probably only take out 2 of them in the same class ship. How many lvl 10s would it take to kill a lvl capped guy in WoW?
3) There is no grind in eve. People who grind in eve (and there really aren't many) just suffer from bad habits coming from games like WoW. The only good reason to do anything repetitively is money, and money is easy enough to come by and generally not necessary past a certain point that there is never any real reason to do that for long. The bad reason people grind is because they don't have the motivation to come up personal goals like going into low sec pvp/piracy, getting into trading, or whatever. In the words of Howard Rourke "Don't you know what you want? How can you stand it, not to know?"
I know I am dogging on WoW (see my sig, I am a hater), but honestly it is really the Heroin Hero of video games, and I have made it my mission to get as many people as I can to at least give EvE a serious try before they decide they don't like it. I'll admit it's not for everyone. People that are ok watching TV for 10 hours straight are probably better off playing WoW.
edit : Quote from the other thread to show why WoW is bad
Necronic
Or you know, it amounts to enjoying yourself, like any other game. If you treat the game like nothing but a grind, that is all it will become to you. That goes for WoW, EvE, Final Fantasy, Hello Kitty Island, etc... Acting like EvE is "healthier" worthless grind is just being silly.[/QUOTE]All your time, it amounts to nothing now.
That sounds good and all, except for 3 things:
1) The expansion of gameplay in WoW only exists in end game. The only way to get to end game is to grind xp. Yes, you can run missions and chat and have fun and never hit end game in wow, but then, you aren't really playing (like actually playing) with many other people (since low lvl systems are always underpopulated) and you will also never see the new exciting fun stuff, because Blizzard explicitly caters to the end game. Except at christmas time.....
2) There is no end game in EvE. There is no real differentiation between a new player and an old one. Sometime soon (maybe this weekend) we are doing a pvp tourney with all the new players from the forum and at the end of it they will be going against me. I have 3 some odd years of play time under my belt, and I could probably only take out 2 of them in the same class ship. How many lvl 10s would it take to kill a lvl capped guy in WoW?
3) There is no grind in eve. People who grind in eve (and there really aren't many) just suffer from bad habits coming from games like WoW. The only good reason to do anything repetitively is money, and money is easy enough to come by and generally not necessary past a certain point that there is never any real reason to do that for long. The bad reason people grind is because they don't have the motivation to come up personal goals like going into low sec pvp/piracy, getting into trading, or whatever. In the words of Howard Rourke "Don't you know what you want? How can you stand it, not to know?"
I know I am dogging on WoW (see my sig, I am a hater), but honestly it is really the Heroin Hero of video games, and I have made it my mission to get as many people as I can to at least give EvE a serious try before they decide they don't like it. I'll admit it's not for everyone. People that are ok watching TV for 10 hours straight are probably better off playing WoW.
edit : Quote from the other thread to show why WoW is bad
So it took 8 months of repetitive grinding to get something that has been rendered obsolete? That's exactly why I quit WoW. I put together a brilliant chromatic breastplate. Then they released Burning Crusade and the first guy I killed had an item better than that. Going back to that is blaming yourself for someone else hitting you.I got my Hand of Ragnaros this week after 8 months of farming MC with a friend for the Eye of Rag
#28
ScytheRexx
EvE can be a grind game. Saying "there is no grind" and then saying people do grind, even with veiled insults to why they grind, does not means there is no grinding. Nice try though.
In the end, I just have to say get over it. You like EvE, others like WoW. You may think we are playing "for nothing" but that is far from the truth. Get this, we play WoW for the same reason you play EvE, we have fun. Odd concept, I know.
ScytheRexx
Yes, that is why Blizzard is making a whole expansion around the 1-85 game? I think you already struck out. The end game is part of the game, it is the overall destination, but that does not discredit the journey. Most of us that play WoW enjoy the leveling game, some don't, some prefer nothing but the end game. Some prefer PVP, some prefer raiding, some just like to farm, and some love to work the Auction House. Does grinding happen? Yes. Does grinding happen in other games? Yes. Grinding is just a fact of life to players in certain groups.1) The expansion of gameplay in WoW only exists in end game. The only way to get to end game is to grind xp. Yes, you can run missions and chat and have fun and never hit end game in wow, but then, you aren't really playing (like actually playing) with many other people (since low lvl systems are always underpopulated) and you will also never see the new exciting fun stuff, because Blizzard explicitly caters to the end game. Except at christmas time.....
None, and that is fine with us. We don't play WoW to just be "BAM PRO!" and kill a guy who worked for his gear and his achievements. While that might be all fine and dandy to you, players in WoW often do the high end raids for the power that comes from those stats, and the achievements that are attached to those fights. Different strokes for different folks. Have fun getting blown up by a newb, I really don't desire that.2) There is no end game in EvE. There is no real differentiation between a new player and an old one. Sometime soon (maybe this weekend) we are doing a pvp tourney with all the new players from the forum and at the end of it they will be going against me. I have 3 some odd years of play time under my belt, and I could probably only take out 2 of them in the same class ship. How many lvl 10s would it take to kill a lvl capped guy in WoW?
Ah, what was that words you just said? Oh... "they don't have the motivation to come up personal goals", that sounds interesting. Want in on a little secret? Players in WoW can come up with goals to. You always will have the mindless idiots, the automotan, the robots killing boars over and over. Then you will have the players questing, enjoying themselves, teaming for dailies or running a raid. Maybe I will arena, who know? That is what is nice about goals, we make them.3) There is no grind in eve. People who grind in eve (and there really aren't many) just suffer from bad habits coming from games like WoW. The only good reason to do anything repetitively is money, and money is easy enough to come by and generally not necessary past a certain point that there is never any real reason to do that for long. The bad reason people grind is because they don't have the motivation to come up personal goals like going into low sec pvp/piracy, getting into trading, or whatever. In the words of Howard Rourke "Don't you know what you want? How can you stand it, not to know?"
EvE can be a grind game. Saying "there is no grind" and then saying people do grind, even with veiled insults to why they grind, does not means there is no grinding. Nice try though.
Ah, so in truth you are just a bitter, jaded individual that wants his own game to be more popular then it is. Got to "hate the man" right? Sorry, but I don't stand by the idea that one must hate a game because one does not emjoy it as much as another one. That is personal taste and nothing else. Ask people to try EvE, it is a good game, but don't go rampaging about how crappy WoW is when you simply don't like the style of gameplay, a style that millions around the world disagree with you about. (Oh, but they are just sheeple right? :laughI know I am dogging on WoW (see my sig, I am a hater), but honestly it is really the Heroin Hero of video games, and I have made it my mission to get as many people as I can to at least give EvE a serious try before they decide they don't like it. I'll admit it's not for everyone. People that are ok watching TV for 10 hours straight are probably better off playing WoW.
That is called a "gear reset" and is something we ask for. It allows us as players to start fresh, to start in a "new age" of the game without everyone on top staying always on top. Without a gear reset a large part of the game will stagnate, and thus we ask for them to do it. You may piss yourself at this revelation, but some of us don't mind that, just like you don't mind playing a glorified number crunching game with space graphics.So it took 8 months of repetitive grinding to get something that has been rendered obsolete? That's exactly why I quit WoW. I put together a brilliant chromatic breastplate. Then they released Burning Crusade and the first guy I killed had an item better than that. Going back to that is blaming yourself for someone else hitting you.
In the end, I just have to say get over it. You like EvE, others like WoW. You may think we are playing "for nothing" but that is far from the truth. Get this, we play WoW for the same reason you play EvE, we have fun. Odd concept, I know.
#29
Necronic
Necronic
ah hell, I know yall have fun. People have fun watching "Flava of Love" and I give them a hard time too. The name for my site actually came from a conversation with a friend of mine (he was on the second podcast actually) who is big into WoW. Ironically I got him started. He actually put together a really cool duelling tourney on his server, which was a cool self set goal that did actualize nicely.
But anyways. Enough with the nice nice. Need to drink me some haterade real quick and respond:
A good game should reward skill instead of time invested. I think that's hard to argue against.
Also, consensus is a classical logical fallacy (although so are all my ad hominems, well technically they are not fallacies just crappy rhetoric). Are you going to tell me that Lineage 2 is a good game simply because a bunch of people play it? Or that American Idol is a good show because lots of people watch it? And its not that they are sheeple. It's that they just haven't been "shown the way". That's what I am trying to do here, prostyletize (sp?). If only i could use old styles of burning heretics to get my point across,
Say, for instance, if there was a remotely stable economy with a remotely well implemented crafting system. If that was the case then people who raid and people who pvp would have to rely on people who craft. We could get more fine tuned and say that the people who craft would have to rely on people who gather, or on other people who craft. These interdependicies create an MMO ecosystem of sorts that would maintain itself without constant fiddling at the level blizzard does.
So.....something yall asked for is actually indicative of terrible design. This is why I must preach the faith. I don't actually care if its EvE you come to, and I don't really care if its WoW that you leave. My real issue is that people need to start seeing these elements of bad design for what they are. That acceptance just leads to lazier and lazier design that I really do think will end up with us all playing Heroin Hero if we aren't careful.
-----------
Anyways, bring it on. This is actually a good conversation cause I am trying to figure out an article I am going to write on this subject and this is really helping me figure out my points.
Edit: Missed one
Raid top level dungeons
Be badass at pvp
Build a group of good players to do the previous 2
Have fun with friends
How do you get good at raiding? Hit the level cap, get the best gear, raid a lot
How do you get badass at pvp? Hit the level cap, get the best gearll, pvp a lot
the other 2 are assumed in any MMO.
Aside from exotic goals like my friend had there isn't much else out there. Seriously, what did you spend your last month of playing doing? And with the exotic goals (like my pals), those are almost always focused on metagaming, and, while interesting they have very little to do with the game design.
Now, in EvE. Here's some goals:
Mining
Trading
Production
Research
0.0 logistics
0.0 fleet pvp
piracy
0.0 production (moon mining)
ratting
character trading
running missions
Small group pvp (wolfpacks)
Wormhole/exploration
I know I mentioned a couple different types of PvP, but they are varied enough that they simply have to be listed seperately. It may be fair to break up pvp in WoW to open world vs BG pvp, but there really is no motivation for open world pvp except for just griefing right? Plus, unlike here, being good at one type of PvP in wow means your good at all of it. Very one dimensional. Being a good pirate is VERY different than being a good fleet pvper which is also very different from wolfpack pvp.
a couple of these could become grindy (mission running, ratting, and mining) but if you are doing nothing but running missions or ratting you are just doing it wrong. Missions earn money. Money is used to do one of those other things. Mining can be grindy (pun), but only if you aren't doing any analyses on your mining operation to improve your profit margins, on the premise of eventually getting into 0.0 mining/moon mining.
But anyways. Enough with the nice nice. Need to drink me some haterade real quick and respond:
only took them 5 years. I'll believe it when I see it. The entire culture of the game is focused on the level cap. To be fair this isn't just a problem with WoW, its a problem with many MMOs.Yes, that is why Blizzard is making a whole expansion around the 1-85 game?
If I get killed by a newb I would definitely be having fun. It would be really impressive. Take Lord Rendar, one of our locals. In his first week he popped 2 miners asleep at the wheel. That's a major accomplishment that has impressed both myself and another veteran player friend of mine. No level 10 would ever impress a lvl cap dude. That's because in EvE we respect player skill above everything, whereas in WoWtypes people only respect "paying your dues" / playing ridiculous hours to grind the level cap.Have fun getting blown up by a newb, I really don't desire that.
A good game should reward skill instead of time invested. I think that's hard to argue against.
There's no bitterness. This is about giving. I am like the shaman that comes into your mud huts and shows you how to make fire. Honest to god, I love nothing more than introducing a good game to someone and seeing them love it.Ah, so in truth you are just a bitter, jaded individual that wants his own game to be more popular then it is. Got to "hate the man" right? Sorry, but I don't stand by the idea that one must hate a game because one does not like it. Ask people to try EvE, it is a good game, but don't go rampaging about how crappy WoW is when you simply don't like the style of gameplay, a style that millions around the world disagree with you about. (Oh, but they are just sheeple right? )
Also, consensus is a classical logical fallacy (although so are all my ad hominems, well technically they are not fallacies just crappy rhetoric). Are you going to tell me that Lineage 2 is a good game simply because a bunch of people play it? Or that American Idol is a good show because lots of people watch it? And its not that they are sheeple. It's that they just haven't been "shown the way". That's what I am trying to do here, prostyletize (sp?). If only i could use old styles of burning heretics to get my point across,
One of the things that makes me the massive hater that I am is an obsession with game design. I don't care dick about graphics or story or any of that shit. Just flat out design. This whole concept of "Gear Reset" as being the only way to level the playing field is such a huge indication of bad design that it appalls me other people don't see it. The necessity of this indicates a single vector of progress. If the game had more than 1 type of progress (and to be fair it does have like 1.1 with pvp rewards) then this would never be an issue.That is called a "gear reset" and is something we ask for. It allows us as players to start fresh, to start in a "new age" of the game without everyone on top staying always on top.
Say, for instance, if there was a remotely stable economy with a remotely well implemented crafting system. If that was the case then people who raid and people who pvp would have to rely on people who craft. We could get more fine tuned and say that the people who craft would have to rely on people who gather, or on other people who craft. These interdependicies create an MMO ecosystem of sorts that would maintain itself without constant fiddling at the level blizzard does.
So.....something yall asked for is actually indicative of terrible design. This is why I must preach the faith. I don't actually care if its EvE you come to, and I don't really care if its WoW that you leave. My real issue is that people need to start seeing these elements of bad design for what they are. That acceptance just leads to lazier and lazier design that I really do think will end up with us all playing Heroin Hero if we aren't careful.
Hey man, jerking off is fun too but I still think its better to go out and get laid. EvE isn't just fun, its challenging, and there is a big difference. Having to invest X amount of time to succeed is not challenging, having to design a MS Access database to be competitive in the market is. The reward you get from accomplishing something that is both fun and challenging is far greater than something that is just fun.You may think we are playing "for nothing" but that is far from the truth. Get this, we play the WoW for the same reason you play EvE, we have fun. Odd concept, I know.
-----------
Anyways, bring it on. This is actually a good conversation cause I am trying to figure out an article I am going to write on this subject and this is really helping me figure out my points.
Edit: Missed one
See, unlike your relationship with EvE I have played a lot of WoW. Here are the goals that exist in WoW:Ah, what was that words you just said? Oh... "they don't have the motivation to come up personal goals", that sounds interesting. Want in on a little secret? Players in WoW can come up with goals to. You always will have the mindless idiots, the automotan, the robots killing boars over and over. Then you will have the players questing, enjoying themselves, teaming for dailies or running a raid. Maybe I will arena, who know? That is what is nice about goals, we make them.
EvE can be a grind game. Saying "there is no grind" and then saying people do grind, even with veiled insults to why they grind, does not means there is no grinding. Nice try though.
Raid top level dungeons
Be badass at pvp
Build a group of good players to do the previous 2
Have fun with friends
How do you get good at raiding? Hit the level cap, get the best gear, raid a lot
How do you get badass at pvp? Hit the level cap, get the best gearll, pvp a lot
the other 2 are assumed in any MMO.
Aside from exotic goals like my friend had there isn't much else out there. Seriously, what did you spend your last month of playing doing? And with the exotic goals (like my pals), those are almost always focused on metagaming, and, while interesting they have very little to do with the game design.
Now, in EvE. Here's some goals:
Mining
Trading
Production
Research
0.0 logistics
0.0 fleet pvp
piracy
0.0 production (moon mining)
ratting
character trading
running missions
Small group pvp (wolfpacks)
Wormhole/exploration
I know I mentioned a couple different types of PvP, but they are varied enough that they simply have to be listed seperately. It may be fair to break up pvp in WoW to open world vs BG pvp, but there really is no motivation for open world pvp except for just griefing right? Plus, unlike here, being good at one type of PvP in wow means your good at all of it. Very one dimensional. Being a good pirate is VERY different than being a good fleet pvper which is also very different from wolfpack pvp.
a couple of these could become grindy (mission running, ratting, and mining) but if you are doing nothing but running missions or ratting you are just doing it wrong. Missions earn money. Money is used to do one of those other things. Mining can be grindy (pun), but only if you aren't doing any analyses on your mining operation to improve your profit margins, on the premise of eventually getting into 0.0 mining/moon mining.
#30
ScytheRexx
As for Lingeage 2 and American Idol. I don't like them, but you know what I do? I don't watch them. I don't walk up to my mother and say "American Idol is horrible, you are rotting your brain!" because that is not my place nor correct, because as much as I find the show putrid, the fact people enjoy it is all that matters. People enjoy different things, I hate Twilight, but I don't force that opinion on my friends that enjoy Twilight.
That, really, is your issue, you have to "hate" on WoW in order to make yourself feel better about your own choice in game. It is the classic case, "Well if I don't like it obviously I am right and everyone else is stupid!" That, my friend, is much more a waste of time then anything you can do in WoW.
You being "appalled" that no one else sees it just goes to show you are off in your own little world of self-justification.
People, over time, shift and flow. Games that were once best sellers now barely make the figures anticipated, because tastes change, people change, and thus why new designs have to be made.
I don't wish to continue to speak with you though if all that you answer this with is more "self-righteous" banter that adds nothing to the discussion other then further degredation, so if that is the case, good day.
ScytheRexx
Once again you are generalizing. WoW has it's own skilled players, many of which take on challenges at a gear level much lower then required. You have the old school days when rogues were able to kill people with newbie daggers. We have people that do show skill, and they do get some respect. It is not always about "paying your dues", but sometimes that is important too.That's because in EvE we respect player skill above everything, whereas in WoWtypes people only respect "paying your dues" / playing ridiculous hours to grind the level cap.
It is more then that. Time is part of it, skill is part of it. A game with all skill but no content to base it is stagnate. A game with all time investment but no skill is basically autopilot. A mix is desired, something were one can put in the time to build himself up, but sooner or later he is going to reach a threshold. When he does, others will naturally catch up to him. That is how I prefer my game, it is about balance.A good game should reward skill instead of time invested. I think that's hard to argue against.
The issue is "good game" is subjective. You feel like bringing EvE into this means you are some sort of god, but in truth you are just like me. You are a gamer sitting around and enjoying a game. You didn't enjoy another game. To imply EvE is "superior" to WoW is saying Apples are ten times better then Bananas, it means nothing.There's no bitterness. This is about giving. I am like the shaman that comes into your mud huts and shows you how to make fire. Honest to god, I love nothing more than introducing a good game to someone and seeing them love it.
There you go with the "god complex" again, it really does not suite you.Also, consensus is a classical logical fallacy (although so are all my ad hominems, well technically they are not fallacies just crappy rhetoric). Are you going to tell me that Lineage 2 is a good game simply because a bunch of people play it? Or that American Idol is a good show because lots of people watch it? And its not that they are sheeple. It's that they just haven't been "shown the way". That's what I am trying to do here, prostyletize (sp?). If only i could use old styles of burning heretics to get my point across,
As for Lingeage 2 and American Idol. I don't like them, but you know what I do? I don't watch them. I don't walk up to my mother and say "American Idol is horrible, you are rotting your brain!" because that is not my place nor correct, because as much as I find the show putrid, the fact people enjoy it is all that matters. People enjoy different things, I hate Twilight, but I don't force that opinion on my friends that enjoy Twilight.
That, really, is your issue, you have to "hate" on WoW in order to make yourself feel better about your own choice in game. It is the classic case, "Well if I don't like it obviously I am right and everyone else is stupid!" That, my friend, is much more a waste of time then anything you can do in WoW.
You are obsessed, I will give you that, but it is not with game design. Game design is a free flowing ideal, it is all about taking a base set of ideas and mechanics and making them enjoyable. You are not obsessed with game design, you are obsessed with your ego. You make it very clear that you give yourself and your outlook more credit then it is actually worth. The gear reset is not bad design in the system in which it is utilized, and is actually a "preferred" design. Can there be other methods, other ideals? Yes, that is the nature of design.One of the things that makes me the massive hater that I am is an obsession with game design. I don't care dick about graphics or story or any of that shit. Just flat out design. This whole concept of "Gear Reset" as being the only way to level the playing field is such a huge indication of bad design that it appalls me other people don't see it. The necessity of this indicates a single vector of progress. If the game had more than 1 type of progress (and to be fair it does have like 1.1 with pvp rewards) then this would never be an issue.
You being "appalled" that no one else sees it just goes to show you are off in your own little world of self-justification.
Disagree. We have gone over this many times in the past in the community, and we find that the crafting dynamics are fine the way they are because they allow great bonuses while not adding to many layers to a game that already has a lot of options (ones, obviously, you refuse to even see, but I digress). Crafting is viable, and WoW has such a large economy of goods and trades that people have written books on it.Say, for instance, if there was a remotely stable economy with a remotely well implemented crafting system. If that was the case then people who raid and people who pvp would have to rely on people who craft. We could get more fine tuned and say that the people who craft would have to rely on people who gather, or on other people who craft. These interdependicies create an MMO ecosystem of sorts that would maintain itself without constant fiddling at the level blizzard does.
Get over yourself. You speak of terrible design, but I have to ask. What is so well designed about EvE? Honestly, when I tried it out long ago, before I even played WoW for comparison, I just didn't like the game. It felt clunky, overcomplicated in some areas, and way to simple in others. It was, to me, a horrible design. Now, this is where the idea of "taste" and "perception" come into play. You preach a gospel that is false, because by limiting what is "good" and "bad" design to your own taste, you are limiting design in general. You, my friend, are much more of a ruination then anything I can see some out of "Heroin Hero".So.....something yall asked for is actually indicative of terrible design. This is why I must preach the faith. I don't actually care if its EvE you come to, and I don't really care if its WoW that you leave. My real issue is that people need to start seeing these elements of bad design for what they are. That acceptance just leads to lazier and lazier design that I really do think will end up with us all playing Heroin Hero if we aren't careful.
People, over time, shift and flow. Games that were once best sellers now barely make the figures anticipated, because tastes change, people change, and thus why new designs have to be made.
Disagree. If I wanted something fun AND challenging, I would go outside and play sports. A game, at the core, is designed to bring fun. Challenge is added on to that, and frankly, you underestimate how challenging WoW can be if you actually cared enough to try. Is it as challenging as EvE? No, does the WoW community want it to be as challenging as EvE? No, because otherwise we would play EvE.Hey man, jerking off is fun too but I still think its better to go out and get laid. EvE isn't just fun, its challenging, and there is a big difference. Having to invest X amount of time to succeed is not challenging, having to design a MS Access database to be competitive in the market is. The reward you get from accomplishing something that is both fun and challenging is far greater than something that is just fun.
I don't wish to continue to speak with you though if all that you answer this with is more "self-righteous" banter that adds nothing to the discussion other then further degredation, so if that is the case, good day.
#31
Deschain
Deschain
SOMEONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION ON THE INTERNET. THEY MUST BE WRONG.
Also, just do something productive.
Also, just do something productive.
#32
fade
fade
I honestly think all those MMOs are boring beyond a few weeks. My biggest problem with WoW was that it seemed like the below-80 levels were considered throw-aways by most of the population on the several servers I tried. Because of that, I almost never grouped. Everyone seemed to want to solo. PUGs seemed non-existant. And what's the point of being online if you can't? To see 12 year olds yell at each other in General Chat? People even told me (here, too) that the game "really gets fun at the end", like I was supposed to do work in what was supposed to be paid entertainment before I got to have fun. No lie, the game was fun at first. Until I realized that all the quests seemed to be identical. Kill X of Y. Get the Z from Q--by killing Q. Level up time---you get a new graphic that does basically the same thing, because your bad guys have equivalently leveled up. The linear scaling of bad guys to you makes leveling almost pointless. Which brings up another point. The game is too easy. I tried it for three months, for the record. My highest character was a 55 shaman. I don't hate the game...I just wish it was more challenging and varied.
Dave, as far as Oblivion/Morrowind goes, I like the idea of an open format--don't get me wrong. I just don't have the time to figure out what to do when every NPC is giving me a quest. Plus, I figured out it was really easy to legally cheat in Morrowind with intelligence potions. I went to write it up on GameFaqs, only to find out it was there already a million times over.
Dave, as far as Oblivion/Morrowind goes, I like the idea of an open format--don't get me wrong. I just don't have the time to figure out what to do when every NPC is giving me a quest. Plus, I figured out it was really easy to legally cheat in Morrowind with intelligence potions. I went to write it up on GameFaqs, only to find out it was there already a million times over.
#33
Dave
Do you play cuz i could really use some help conquering a quest ......I dont much about what im doing but it sure is fun to pass the time while my hubby is away at school ![/QUOTE]
Please tell me you are on an RP server. If you are PvP you best grow eyes in the back of your head.
RP is made for a more social experience.
Dave
Or you know, it amounts to enjoying yourself, like any other game. If you treat the game like nothing but a grind, that is all it will become to you. That goes for WoW, EvE, Final Fantasy, Hello Kitty Island, etc... Acting like EvE is "healthier" worthless grind is just being silly.[/QUOTE]All your time, it amounts to nothing now.
Do you play cuz i could really use some help conquering a quest ......I dont much about what im doing but it sure is fun to pass the time while my hubby is away at school ![/QUOTE]
Please tell me you are on an RP server. If you are PvP you best grow eyes in the back of your head.
RP is made for a more social experience.
#34
ScytheRexx
While I am always happy to help, the issue is that we all exist on various servers. If you are on a different server then me I can't do more then give advice on how to defeat certain challenges. I could probably make a DK on your server but I would have to quest through the whole newbie area just to get to a point I can help. I have been kind of hoping Blizzard develops a system that allows server "visits" but that probably will never happen, sadly.
I would put an open invitation to join me on my server, but frankly my server is not for the weak at heart even by PVP server standards. I think you would do better getting the hang of the game on either a Normal (PvE) or RP server.
ScytheRexx
Woah sorry darkangel, didn't mean to ignore you but I got a bit distracted in here. Thanks to Dave for quoting your post so I can notice it.Do you play cuz i could really use some help conquering a quest ......I dont much about what im doing but it sure is fun to pass the time while my hubby is away at school !
While I am always happy to help, the issue is that we all exist on various servers. If you are on a different server then me I can't do more then give advice on how to defeat certain challenges. I could probably make a DK on your server but I would have to quest through the whole newbie area just to get to a point I can help. I have been kind of hoping Blizzard develops a system that allows server "visits" but that probably will never happen, sadly.
I would put an open invitation to join me on my server, but frankly my server is not for the weak at heart even by PVP server standards. I think you would do better getting the hang of the game on either a Normal (PvE) or RP server.
That is understandable. By most MMO standards the game is rather simple and easy to handle, but realize that is by design. I like to think of WoW as a theme park. You have roller coasters, arcades, lazer tag, you just go in and enjoy yourself with some simple fun for an hour or two before you head home. Some people like theme parks, some would rather have a more involved experience of a game of DnD, and some would rather have the challenge of a even game of flag football versus the Dallas Cowboys, neither in the end is bad, they are just different. That is much of my point I have been bringing up in this thread.I don't hate the game...I just wish it was more challenging and varied.
#35
Dave
Dave
I'm not sure what advice to give her. Normally you ask people in game about things but in WoW the server population has a lot to do with how you ask. On some servers if they find out you are a real-life female and a new player the sharks will circle.
First thing, learn how to turn off the Trade Channel until you are a bit higher level. I usually mute everything but the General chat and Guild/Friend.
---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------
What server are you on? What race/class? That helps a lot to help you out.
First thing, learn how to turn off the Trade Channel until you are a bit higher level. I usually mute everything but the General chat and Guild/Friend.
---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------
What server are you on? What race/class? That helps a lot to help you out.
#36
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
I've had a lot of fun in WoW. and a lot of it was not at the Level Cap. Last year I raised up a lvl 19 hunter to pvp with. It was like having a kit car to race in. Anyone can grind out 19 lvls get some blues and greens from dungeons and quests, buy some enhancements/enchantments, and go kick arse. Just too bad Blizzard decided to kill off the twink PvP combat.
After I had more badges than I could stand I got enough gear to outfit 2 alts and start leveling them. There is a new dungeon instance finder. It is like PvP has been for a while. You queue up and go out to trade skill, you get called into the dungeon with 4 others from up to 4 realms I think, and you get a blue at the end of each dungeon. Then when you are done you are dropped back to your previous spot. When you get in with people that do their homework, it is a ton of fun. Go blowing through dungeons that were so dangerous back in vanilla with people that know their class and role with very few wipes. The problem lies with some folks refuse to play their role correctly, those tend not to be fun. but the surrounding drama does get your heart beating...
I am now playing 3 different alts and leveling fairly rapidly, and having fun.
After I had more badges than I could stand I got enough gear to outfit 2 alts and start leveling them. There is a new dungeon instance finder. It is like PvP has been for a while. You queue up and go out to trade skill, you get called into the dungeon with 4 others from up to 4 realms I think, and you get a blue at the end of each dungeon. Then when you are done you are dropped back to your previous spot. When you get in with people that do their homework, it is a ton of fun. Go blowing through dungeons that were so dangerous back in vanilla with people that know their class and role with very few wipes. The problem lies with some folks refuse to play their role correctly, those tend not to be fun. but the surrounding drama does get your heart beating...
I am now playing 3 different alts and leveling fairly rapidly, and having fun.
#37
ScytheRexx
My biggest advice is to find a leveling guild to join with. Most server have them, and they exist mostly for for new players to have others to level with. You can also queue for dungeons starting at around Level 15, which will let you try out the game from another angle, the dungeon run. Be aware though that a few random people might not be nice in dungeons because they expect to much out of you, don't take them seriously, just leave the group and find a better one if someone tries to give you a hard time.
ScytheRexx
This is good advice. People can be... interesting... when they know they have a zone wide audience to annoy. We have a term in the game called "Barrens Chat" because the zone The Barrens was notorious for having silly, inane, and often trollish discussions back in the old days.First thing, learn how to turn off the Trade Channel until you are a bit higher level. I usually mute everything but the General chat and Guild/Friend.
My biggest advice is to find a leveling guild to join with. Most server have them, and they exist mostly for for new players to have others to level with. You can also queue for dungeons starting at around Level 15, which will let you try out the game from another angle, the dungeon run. Be aware though that a few random people might not be nice in dungeons because they expect to much out of you, don't take them seriously, just leave the group and find a better one if someone tries to give you a hard time.
#38
Necronic
Well of course I am generalizing. I am talking about the game as a whole.There are exceptions to every rule. But your example is simply metagaming again. If I have to intentionally handicap myself to make things interesting then the game isn't designed well. 4X games have a real problem with this. Most of them increase difficulty by just giving the CPU more money and you less. And in the words of my old programming proffesor "That's duct tape, that's bad" . Galactic Civilization has a difficulty slider focused around clock time the AI gets. That is good design.
Anyways, you're telling me you have never talked trash about a show, game, or webcomic on this sight before? You have no opinions on things that you display openly?
I do. I have a problem with inferior products being accepted because "everyone has a right to be right." Fuck that. Homeopathy isn't a real medicine, American Idol isn't good television, and Console FPS tournaments are the Special Olympics of gaming. Of course people can think what they want, but I will challenge them on their ideas. Hell, maybe I will learn something. I honestly generally argue with the intent, not to be correct, but to find a higher truth. Now, in the case of this argument I am being a little more aggressive, but in honesty some of the posts I have seen have pointed out some things that I will agree to (see at the end)
A game, at its core, is to challenge you mentally and/or physically. Every historic game of any significance has this in it. Chess. Poker. Soccer. That Aztec game where you put the ball through the hoop or you get decapitated (that one was mentally challenging, ba dum pshhh!) Bacci. Even fucking shuffleboard. Something that is done just for fun but doesn't present any challenge whatsoever? That sounds like either Kick the Can or rubbing one out (although if you take sleeping pills and see if you can finish before you fall asleep that does qualify as a game to me. Took that one from seth rogan)
And to the self righteous thing. I'll admit, I'm being pretty harsh, but I am giving reasoning behind everything I have said. Maybe my reasoning is wrong, seriously maybe it is. But I am making an attempt to base my arguments in reason. "Leonitus, use your reason!" May not be the best quote to use here....
also, things I will admit about wow:
There are some really REALLY good design elements in it.
The setting and lore are fantastic. (although the whole "This is a major god! whoops level cap is up everyone can one shot him" thing is a little disconcerting)
The theme of almost every character and race is exceptional
The dungeons and boss encounters are very well designed (even if there isn't a reason to explore much of BRS there is a lot of cool stuff in there)
Battlegrounds and pvp is pretty tits.
and this is the big one:
Starting from scratch in WoW with no experience playing something else is one of the most exciting and fun experiences a gamer can have. But its still Heroin Hero.
Necronic
Once again you are generalizing. WoW has it's own skilled players, many of which take on challenges at a gear level much lower then required. You have the old school days when rogues were able to kill people with newbie daggers. We have people that do show skill, and they do get some respect. It is not always about "paying your dues", but sometimes that is important too.[/quote]That's because in EvE we respect player skill above everything, whereas in WoWtypes people only respect "paying your dues" / playing ridiculous hours to grind the level cap.
Well of course I am generalizing. I am talking about the game as a whole.There are exceptions to every rule. But your example is simply metagaming again. If I have to intentionally handicap myself to make things interesting then the game isn't designed well. 4X games have a real problem with this. Most of them increase difficulty by just giving the CPU more money and you less. And in the words of my old programming proffesor "That's duct tape, that's bad" . Galactic Civilization has a difficulty slider focused around clock time the AI gets. That is good design.
We'll agree to disagree. Having to invest time, not to get good at something, but as the only way to advance is bad. It's lazy design. If someone jumps into a L4D match should they have better weapons because they play more (see modern warfare....) Should a chess player get more pieces since he has been playing longer? A poker player? What about a basketball player? Maybe after X years he doesn't even have to do the free throws anymore.It is more then that. Time is part of it, skill is part of it. A game with all skill but no content to base it is stagnate. A game with all time investment but no skill is basically autopilot. A mix is desired, something were one can put in the time to build himself up, but sooner or later he is going to reach a threshold. When he does, others will naturally catch up to him. That is how I prefer my game, it is about balance.A good game should reward skill instead of time invested. I think that's hard to argue against.
Ok, the concept of a good game may be subjective, but the concept of a bad game rarely is. Like, we may have different opinions about what makes a girl pretty, but I think we can all agree that the girl with the pubic hair mustache isn'tThe issue is "good game" is subjective. You feel like bringing EvE into this means you are some sort of god, but in truth you are just like me. You are a gamer sitting around and enjoying a game. You didn't enjoy another game. To imply EvE is "superior" to WoW is saying Apples are ten times better then Bananas, it means nothing.There's no bitterness. This is about giving. I am like the shaman that comes into your mud huts and shows you how to make fire. Honest to god, I love nothing more than introducing a good game to someone and seeing them love it.
First off its not a god complex, its a prophet complex thank you very much. I'm trying to take yall to the promised land damnit.There you go with the "god complex" again, it really does not suite you.Also, consensus is a classical logical fallacy (although so are all my ad hominems, well technically they are not fallacies just crappy rhetoric). Are you going to tell me that Lineage 2 is a good game simply because a bunch of people play it? Or that American Idol is a good show because lots of people watch it? And its not that they are sheeple. It's that they just haven't been "shown the way". That's what I am trying to do here, prostyletize (sp?). If only i could use old styles of burning heretics to get my point across,
As for Lingeage 2 and American Idol. I don't like them, but you know what I do? I don't watch them. I don't walk up to my mother and say "American Idol is horrible, you are rotting your brain!" because that is not my place nor correct, because as much as I find the show putrid, the fact people enjoy it is all that matters. People enjoy different things, I hate Twilight, but I don't force that opinion on my friends that enjoy Twilight.
That, really, is your issue, you have to "hate" on WoW in order to make yourself feel better about your own choice in game. It is the classic case, "Well if I don't like it obviously I am right and everyone else is stupid!" That, my friend, is much more a waste of time then anything you can do in WoW.
Anyways, you're telling me you have never talked trash about a show, game, or webcomic on this sight before? You have no opinions on things that you display openly?
I do. I have a problem with inferior products being accepted because "everyone has a right to be right." Fuck that. Homeopathy isn't a real medicine, American Idol isn't good television, and Console FPS tournaments are the Special Olympics of gaming. Of course people can think what they want, but I will challenge them on their ideas. Hell, maybe I will learn something. I honestly generally argue with the intent, not to be correct, but to find a higher truth. Now, in the case of this argument I am being a little more aggressive, but in honesty some of the posts I have seen have pointed out some things that I will agree to (see at the end)
So there's that "everyone has a right to be right" thing again. You defend the game but offer no specific responses to the very specific charges I am levelling here (with lance and banner flowing, I shall slay the wicked dragon!) Saying it is a "preferred" design doesn't explain why. I don't want to "argue about the arguement" too much, but please make a point here.You are obsessed, I will give you that, but it is not with game design. Game design is a free flowing ideal, it is all about taking a base set of ideas and mechanics and making them enjoyable. You are not obsessed with game design, you are obsessed with your ego. You make it very clear that you give yourself and your outlook more credit then it is actually worth. The gear reset is not bad design in the system in which it is utilized, and is actually a "preferred" design. Can there be other methods, other ideals? Yes, that is the nature of design.One of the things that makes me the massive hater that I am is an obsession with game design. I don't care dick about graphics or story or any of that shit. Just flat out design. This whole concept of "Gear Reset" as being the only way to level the playing field is such a huge indication of bad design that it appalls me other people don't see it. The necessity of this indicates a single vector of progress. If the game had more than 1 type of progress (and to be fair it does have like 1.1 with pvp rewards) then this would never be an issue.
You being "appalled" that no one else sees it just goes to show you are off in your own little world of self-justification.
Now, this may be something that has changed since I have been away, but what is the historical price of any item? They plummet massively over time right? Arcane crystals cost something like, what, 30g when I hit 60, when I quit they sold for maybe 10. Also, at 60 there were only a handful of craftable weapons of any real interest. Arcanite Reaper was the only one I could remember, and that one plummetted in value and useability really fast (even before the level cap increase)Disagree. We have gone over this many times in the past in the community, and we find that the crafting dynamics are fine the way they are because they allow great bonuses while not adding to many layers to a game that already has a lot of options (ones, obviously, you refuse to even see, but I digress). Crafting is viable, and WoW has such a large economy of goods and trades that people have written books on it.Say, for instance, if there was a remotely stable economy with a remotely well implemented crafting system. If that was the case then people who raid and people who pvp would have to rely on people who craft. We could get more fine tuned and say that the people who craft would have to rely on people who gather, or on other people who craft. These interdependicies create an MMO ecosystem of sorts that would maintain itself without constant fiddling at the level blizzard does.
Well I'm pretty sure I already covered what the good design elements of EvE are. And understand, there are TONS of games I think are great. From FPSs (L4D, MW2, HL) to RPGs (Baldurs Gate, Obivion (modded of course)) to RTSs (DoW, CoH), 4X(Civ series, Gal Civ) to Tactical Turn Based Strategies (Fallout1&2, Jagged Alliance 2) to whatever. But I can't help but stare down flaws that exist when they do. Like, I was playing Medieval 2 recently, which I was really excited about because it mixed 4X with RTS in a way I thought would be awesome. And it was. At first. Until I realized that the AI was astonishingly pathetic. And I stopped playing it. Because I hold games to a standard, and not even a high one.Get over yourself. You speak of terrible design, but I have to ask. What is so well designed about EvE? Honestly, when I tried it out long ago, before I even played WoW for comparison, I just didn't like the game. It felt clunky, overcomplicated in some areas, and way to simple in others. It was, to me, a horrible design. Now, this is where the idea of "taste" and "perception" come into play. You preach a gospel that is false, because by limiting what is "good" and "bad" design to your own taste, you are limiting design in general. You, my friend, are much more of a ruination then anything I can see some out of "Heroin Hero".So.....something yall asked for is actually indicative of terrible design. This is why I must preach the faith. I don't actually care if its EvE you come to, and I don't really care if its WoW that you leave. My real issue is that people need to start seeing these elements of bad design for what they are. That acceptance just leads to lazier and lazier design that I really do think will end up with us all playing Heroin Hero if we aren't careful.
People, over time, shift and flow. Games that were once best sellers now barely make the figures anticipated, because tastes change, people change, and thus why new designs have to be made.
[/quote]Disagree. If I wanted something fun AND challenging, I would go outside and play sports. A game, at the core, is designed to bring fun. Challenge is added on to that, and frankly, you underestimate how challenging WoW can be if you actually cared enough to try. Is it as challenging as EvE? No, does the WoW community want it to be as challenging as EvE? No, because otherwise we would play EvE.Hey man, jerking off is fun too but I still think its better to go out and get laid. EvE isn't just fun, its challenging, and there is a big difference. Having to invest X amount of time to succeed is not challenging, having to design a MS Access database to be competitive in the market is. The reward you get from accomplishing something that is both fun and challenging is far greater than something that is just fun.
I don't wish to continue to speak with you though if all that you answer this with is more "self-righteous" banter that adds nothing to the discussion other then further degredation, so if that is the case, good day.
A game, at its core, is to challenge you mentally and/or physically. Every historic game of any significance has this in it. Chess. Poker. Soccer. That Aztec game where you put the ball through the hoop or you get decapitated (that one was mentally challenging, ba dum pshhh!) Bacci. Even fucking shuffleboard. Something that is done just for fun but doesn't present any challenge whatsoever? That sounds like either Kick the Can or rubbing one out (although if you take sleeping pills and see if you can finish before you fall asleep that does qualify as a game to me. Took that one from seth rogan)
And to the self righteous thing. I'll admit, I'm being pretty harsh, but I am giving reasoning behind everything I have said. Maybe my reasoning is wrong, seriously maybe it is. But I am making an attempt to base my arguments in reason. "Leonitus, use your reason!" May not be the best quote to use here....
also, things I will admit about wow:
There are some really REALLY good design elements in it.
The setting and lore are fantastic. (although the whole "This is a major god! whoops level cap is up everyone can one shot him" thing is a little disconcerting)
The theme of almost every character and race is exceptional
The dungeons and boss encounters are very well designed (even if there isn't a reason to explore much of BRS there is a lot of cool stuff in there)
Battlegrounds and pvp is pretty tits.
and this is the big one:
Starting from scratch in WoW with no experience playing something else is one of the most exciting and fun experiences a gamer can have. But its still Heroin Hero.
#39
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Quick! Where can I get some sleeping pills? That was hilarious.
#40
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
Also works with Nyquil!
#41
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Also, I'm downloading EvE now. I agree with most of your points about WoW, Necronic. I am pleasantly surprised to see there is a mac version.
#42
Necronic
Necronic
Oh shit I am really sorry, didn't mean to skip this (because its a good point):
That is a really good point. The UI in EvE is not friendly to new players. Once you learn the game you realize you really do need all that (and that some of it is awesome,) but for a new player its a giant can of WTF.What is so well designed about EvE? Honestly, when I tried it out long ago, before I even played WoW for comparison, I just didn't like the game. It felt clunky, overcomplicated in some areas, and way to simple in others. It was, to me, a horrible design.
#43
ScytheRexx
That is the difference. One can be critical, but your opinion is not gospel, you are not a prophet anymore then I am the Pope of Gaming. I make my opinion known, and I will do so in a way that does not simply call everything I don't like an inferior brand of the same old crap.
I personally have no issue with you disliking WoW, I never said you have to like the game for any reason. However, I ask that you realize your perception is biased, and that by that very reason you can not claim something as truth. That was my whole reason for this entire discussion. Not to defend WoW, as I have really nothing needing defending, but to counter your insinuation that my enjoyment is not "genuine", that by playing a game for fun I am "ruining" the form of entertainment I have been a part of just as long as you. That, my friend, is what this is all about.
ScytheRexx
Disagree. I find the fact I have the choice to even attempt it to be good design, it's about having set goals layered with the ability to form personal ones, and the ability for people with skill to show ingenuity despite the system, rather then bound firm by it. It is, once again, a good balance.If I have to intentionally handicap myself to make things interesting then the game isn't designed well
Horrible comparisons and another case of apples to oranges. Those are competitive games in that they are designed to be that way, to start out every round with a more event start. Does this mean time is not a factor at all? I think you should go ask why the guy with a gut can't keep up with Willie Parker until he gets his ass in shape. If you want "chess" in WoW, you take part in the Arena Tournaments when they start.Should a chess player get more pieces since he has been playing longer? A poker player? What about a basketball player? Maybe after X years he doesn't even have to do the free throws anymore.
Oh I have, but here is the problem. While I dislike something, I make it known that such are my opinions, not truths. Truth can never come from me because I, as a human, are built by my desires and experiences. I think "Lost" is one of the silliest shows on television, and stopped watching it ages ago. Do I go and say "Fuck guys, don't watch that shit and come watch BONES instead, it is such a better show not like that candy crap lostite shit."Anyways, you're telling me you have never talked trash about a show, game, or webcomic on this sight before? You have no opinions on things that you display openly?
That is the difference. One can be critical, but your opinion is not gospel, you are not a prophet anymore then I am the Pope of Gaming. I make my opinion known, and I will do so in a way that does not simply call everything I don't like an inferior brand of the same old crap.
That, right there, does not help your argument. While I may not be attracted to a woman with a pubic hair mustache, that does not mean "everyone" does not. Saying such does more to cement my original argument then anything I could say in return.Ok, the concept of a good game may be subjective, but the concept of a bad game rarely is. Like, we may have different opinions about what makes a girl pretty, but I think we can all agree that the girl with the pubic hair mustache isn't
There is nothing to counter when the argument itself is subjective. You wish for me to make a point? I already have, stop thinking your opinion is truth, and accept that others may enjoy things you don't, and hate things you like. That is life, and something you simply have to get over in the end, just as I will get over this thread after this post.So there's that "everyone has a right to be right" thing again. You defend the game but offer no specific responses to the very specific charges I am levelling here (with lance and banner flowing, I shall slay the wicked dragon!) Saying it is a "preferred" design doesn't explain why. I don't want to "argue about the arguement" too much, but please make a point here.
Not sure on your server, but the price for older good actually rise over time, as less and less people openly farm them over the more desired high end materials. Items will always lose usability, it is a part of the game, and all part of that "gear reset" I spoke about that seems to appall your senses.Now, this may be something that has changed since I have been away, but what is the historical price of any item? They plummet massively over time right? Arcane crystals cost something like, what, 30g when I hit 60, when I quit they sold for maybe 10. Also, at 60 there were only a handful of craftable weapons of any real interest. Arcanite Reaper was the only one I could remember, and that one plummetted in value and useability really fast (even before the level cap increase)
The issue, and this is the core, as I don't feel like discussing this further, is that you are not using reasoning. You have a set ideal of what a game should be, a bar shifted up and sideways that is your measuring stick. To you, a well designed game is one you enjoy, but on the flip, a bad designed game is one you don't. Games are games, peoples from Canada to Croatia play them for different desires, different goals, different reasons. One mans "Halo" may be another mans "Haven".And to the self righteous thing. I'll admit, I'm being pretty harsh, but I am giving reasoning behind everything I have said. Maybe my reasoning is wrong, seriously maybe it is. But I am making an attempt to base my arguments in reason. "Leonitus, use your reason!" May not be the best quote to use here....
I personally have no issue with you disliking WoW, I never said you have to like the game for any reason. However, I ask that you realize your perception is biased, and that by that very reason you can not claim something as truth. That was my whole reason for this entire discussion. Not to defend WoW, as I have really nothing needing defending, but to counter your insinuation that my enjoyment is not "genuine", that by playing a game for fun I am "ruining" the form of entertainment I have been a part of just as long as you. That, my friend, is what this is all about.
#44
Necronic
Necronic
you made some good points there.
Also.... of course my perception is biased.....
I've seen the light!
There isn't a game made that doesn't allow ingenuity in metagaming to change the game. A game that allows ingenuity within the boundaries of the game itself is one that really shines.Disagree. I find the fact I have the choice to even attempt it to be good design, it's about having set goals layered with the ability to form personal ones, and the ability for people with skill to show ingenuity despite the system, rather then bound firm by it. It is, once again, a good balance.
What's a Pvp server supposed to be then? A game of paddycakes? Any online game is competitive. WoW is competitive, even on the pve servers (first to do take down so and so). Competition should have at its core at least some sense of balance. Now I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to earn advantages. But it shouldn't be through time investment. I guess that really is opinion. Most people would disagree with me. I know at my work there are people who think that just because they have been at the company for X years that entitles them to a position. But to me that's just an excuse for them to be lazy.Horrible comparisons and another case of apples to oranges. Those are competitive games in that they are designed to be that way, to start out every round with a more event start. Does this mean time is not a factor at all? I think you should go ask why the guy with a gut can't keep up with Willie Parker until he gets his ass in shape. If you want "chess" in WoW, you take part in the Arena Tournaments when they start.
Well, you totally have me there. What I am saying isn't Truth with a capital T, its my evaluation of the situation. Generally speaking, if I am talking about something that is really important, I would never present it this way (because people get defensive and stop listening.) In this case, or like with Lost (which by the way really is a terrible show and I have gone on long rants about why it sucks) its really not that important to me. Which is why I get a little tongue in cheek with my Sermon on the Mount and go balls to the wall. But hey man, its the internets. That's how we do things here (which is also why I will never argue anything serious here.)Oh I have, but here is the problem. While I dislike something, I make it known that such are my opinions, not truths. Truth can never come from me because I, as a human, are built by my desires and experiences. I think "Lost" is one of the silliest shows on television, and stopped watching it ages ago. Do I go and say "Fuck guys, don't watch that shit and come watch BONES instead, it is such a better show not like that candy crap lostite shit."
That is the difference. One can be critical, but your opinion is not gospel, you are not a prophet anymore then I am the Pope of Gaming. I make my opinion known, and I will do so in a way that does not simply call everything I don't like an inferior brand of the same old crap.
From what I read we are 2 for 2 right now. My assessment is at 100%. See, we can agree on something.That, right there, does not help your argument. While I may not be attracted to a woman with a pubic hair mustache, that does not mean "everyone" does not. Saying such does more to cement my original argument then anything I could say in return.
Hey, I already said you had me on that. Still though. I think my arguments are valid and yours are mostly composed of saying that any opinion is inherently valid. (Edit: man, I just reread what I wrote and it is a fucking terrible argument. That's what I get for arguing drunk I suppose.)There is nothing to counter when the argument itself is subjective. You wish for me to make a point? I already have, stop thinking your opinion is truth, and accept that others may enjoy things you don't, and hate things you like. That is life, and something you simply have to get over in the end, just as I will get over this thread after this post.
Hm. That's interesting (seriously). Are there people or guilds who focus entirely on trading?Not sure on your server, but the price for older good actually rise over time, as less and less people openly farm them over the more desired high end materials. Items will always lose usability, it is a part of the game, and all part of that "gear reset" I spoke about that seems to appall your senses.
Actually based on this thread you seem to have a serious problem with me disliking WoW. And hey, that's cool, you should rise to the defense of something you like. But don't get miffed that I choose to respond as well. That's what healthy banter is all about.I personally have no issue with you disliking WoW, I never said you have to like the game for any reason. However, I ask that you realize your perception is biased, and that by that very reason you can not claim something as truth.
Also.... of course my perception is biased.....
I've seen the light!
#45
Allen, who is Quiet
Allen, who is Quiet
Can you define the use of "metagaming" here?There isn't a game made that doesn't allow ingenuity in metagaming to change the game. A game that allows ingenuity within the boundaries of the game itself is one that really shines.
#46
Hailey Knight
They're acknowledging game mechanics unknown to their characters. You know, like computers.
Hailey Knight
Can you define the use of "metagaming" here?[/QUOTE]There isn't a game made that doesn't allow ingenuity in metagaming to change the game. A game that allows ingenuity within the boundaries of the game itself is one that really shines.
They're acknowledging game mechanics unknown to their characters. You know, like computers.
#47
ScytheRexx
ScytheRexx
Fair enough, at least you see the point, and that really is all I would ask.Well, you totally have me there. What I am saying isn't Truth with a capital T, its my evaluation of the situation. Generally speaking, if I am talking about something that is really important, I would never present it this way (because people get defensive and stop listening.) In this case, or like with Lost (which by the way really is a terrible show and I have gone on long rants about why it sucks) its really not that important to me. Which is why I get a little tongue in cheek with my Sermon on the Mount and go balls to the wall. But hey man, its the internets. That's how we do things here (which is also why I will never argue anything serious here.)
Your arguments are valid in the scope of your desires and experience, but your argument is not valid as truth. That is all I mean in any of this, and as long as you understand that I have no issue to continue that discussion.Hey, I already said you had me on that. Still though. I think my arguments are valid and yours are mostly composed of saying that any opinion is inherently valid.
Not sure. I have met dozens of individuals though that do. They have a whole thing called the "Gold Cap Club" because the goal of them all is to work the market till they reach the gold caps, mostly using the AH to adjust prices. Most of them are pissed with a recent patch change that is going to lower the "value" on a few high end materials.Hm. That's interesting (seriously). Are there people or guilds who focus entirely on trading?
If I had an issue with you disliking WoW, I would make it known in much more noticable terms as I can be ravenous when I disagree with someone, but in light of this discussion that would make me a hypocrite if I even did think that. Fact is, I never dislike people who dislike WoW as long as they keep the dislike to the realm of personal opinion without vieled insults to the players. When one says that all we do in WoW means nothing, that is an implication that we, as players, play for nothing, and are just beaten wives walking back into abuse. I take offense to that ideal, whether it is WoW, Free Realms, or MERIDIAN that I play. I would have said nothing in this thread if not for that implication, and that goes back to the first thing I said to you.Actually based on this thread you seem to have a serious problem with me disliking WoW. And hey, that's cool, you should rise to the defense of something you like. But don't get miffed that I choose to respond as well. That's what healthy banter is all about.
I am far from miffed at the discussion, but I will not hold back a punch either if I feel one needs a little jab on the chin. That is something you seem to understand.Or you know, it amounts to enjoying yourself, like any other game.
#48
Necronic
Necronic
Damn...I was way too concilliatory in that last post.
WoW Sucks Jets Suck Yankees Suck.
WoW Sucks Jets Suck Yankees Suck.
#49
Allen, who is Quiet
They're acknowledging game mechanics unknown to their characters. You know, like computers.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I'm still kind of confused by the definition. Let's say a glitch is discovered that changes how a lot of people play the game. Is that ingenuity within the boundaries of the game or is that ingenuity in metagaming?
Allen, who is Quiet
Can you define the use of "metagaming" here?[/QUOTE]There isn't a game made that doesn't allow ingenuity in metagaming to change the game. A game that allows ingenuity within the boundaries of the game itself is one that really shines.
They're acknowledging game mechanics unknown to their characters. You know, like computers.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I'm still kind of confused by the definition. Let's say a glitch is discovered that changes how a lot of people play the game. Is that ingenuity within the boundaries of the game or is that ingenuity in metagaming?
#50
Hailey Knight
They're acknowledging game mechanics unknown to their characters. You know, like computers.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I'm still kind of confused by the definition. Let's say a glitch is discovered that changes how a lot of people play the game. Is that ingenuity within the boundaries of the game or is that ingenuity in metagaming?[/QUOTE]
Basically just watch The Matrix and imagine everyone is orcs and night elves and stuff.
Hailey Knight
Can you define the use of "metagaming" here?[/QUOTE]There isn't a game made that doesn't allow ingenuity in metagaming to change the game. A game that allows ingenuity within the boundaries of the game itself is one that really shines.
They're acknowledging game mechanics unknown to their characters. You know, like computers.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I'm still kind of confused by the definition. Let's say a glitch is discovered that changes how a lot of people play the game. Is that ingenuity within the boundaries of the game or is that ingenuity in metagaming?[/QUOTE]
Basically just watch The Matrix and imagine everyone is orcs and night elves and stuff.
#51
ScytheRexx
ScytheRexx
Can't, Neo does not have a big enough chin.Basically just watch The Matrix and imagine everyone is orcs and night elves and stuff.
#52
fade
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Pretty sure he means that a lot of WoW players make WoW about the playing of the game itself rather than about the actual world (lower case intentional) of Warcraft. Something I can definitely concur with.
#53
LordRendar
LordRendar
Damn you people and your polite arguments! >
#54
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
I definitely do that. I mostly care about going in the dungeon and killing the bad guy/gal. I don't care that she secretly has the ear of the regent of Stormwind.Pretty sure he means that a lot of WoW players make WoW about the playing of the game itself rather than about the actual world (lower case intentional) of Warcraft. Something I can definitely concur with.
#55
SpecialKO
Really? Damn, I do. Not so much that I won't skip all the setup in H ToC and the like after the 10th time, but still.
SpecialKO
I definitely do that. I mostly care about going in the dungeon and killing the bad guy/gal. I don't care that she secretly has the ear of the regent of Stormwind.[/QUOTE]Pretty sure he means that a lot of WoW players make WoW about the playing of the game itself rather than about the actual world (lower case intentional) of Warcraft. Something I can definitely concur with.
Really? Damn, I do. Not so much that I won't skip all the setup in H ToC and the like after the 10th time, but still.