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Goddamn Racism in Comic Book Culture

Aug 3, 2011#1

ThatNickGuy

You know, I really, honestly and truly thought that society had moved beyond this racist crap, but apparently not.

First off, Lawrence Fishburne has been cast for the upcoming Superman movie, The Man of Steel:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/02/laurence-fishburne-is-perry-white-in-man-of-steel/

Personally, I think it's a great choice. I think back to him playing the soft-spoken father figure in the "real world" part of The Matrix and I think that could work really well for Perry White (combined with Fishburne's total badassery for when the chief gets angry).

But then, you've got people's jokes and reactions like "Um. Perry WHITE?" or "He's suposed to be white." I'm thinking, "Seriously? It's 2011, not 1911."

But then - AND THIS INCLUDES A MAJOR SPOILER FOR ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN...

...Marvel announced that, in the wake of Ult. Peter Parker's death, we have a new Spider-Man...

Miles Morales, a half-black, half-Hispanic teenager.

And the comments? Oh sweet leaping Jesus, the comments. Here's a link that has some of those comments:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/02/fear-of-a-black-spider-man/

To all of this, I keep thinking, WHO FUCKING CARES what colour they are? We've already had a black Kingpin in the Daredevil movie (who was great in said role) and a black Nick Fury played by Samuel L. motherfucking Jackson.

What's worse about Miles Morales, though? The only thing that's been announced about him so far his ethnicity. And already, there are people jumping on the hate bandwagon for that, alone, without knowing anything else about the character. Of course, we can partly blame Marvel for that, since that's all they've announced, too. It's like with DC announcing the new Batwoman is a *gasp!* lesbian! Of course, thanks to Greg Rucka, she turned out to be a fantastic, deep, interesting character. I expect the same from Ult. Spider-Man writer, Brian Michael Bendis.

But this general reaction of "OMG SPIDER-MAN IS BLACK!" is ridiculous. For one, it's the Ultimate universe, not the regular universe, so it's hardly as big a deal in the first place. You've still got the regular Peter Parker hopping around the 616 Marvel Universe.

Aug 3, 2011#2

Dave

Nobody seems to mind that Samuel L. Jackson is Nick Fury. He used to be white as well.

I don't really care too much about the new Spider-Man being "ethnic", but I do have an issue with Spider-Man not being Peter Parker.

Aug 3, 2011#3

ThatNickGuy

Kinda hard for Pete to still be Spidey when he's dead.

Aug 3, 2011#4

Fun Size

So what, you've got a problem with a gray man being Spiderman? Pshhh...racists.

Aug 3, 2011#5

Jay

Aug 3, 2011#6

Frankie Williamson

Dave said:
Nobody seems to mind that Samuel L. Jackson is Nick Fury. He used to be white as well.

I don't really care too much about the new Spider-Man being "ethnic", but I do have an issue with Spider-Man not being Peter Parker.

He was black in the Ultimates comics (and modeled after Samuel L.) LOOONG before Samuel L. Jackson actually played him in Iron Man.

= 2001

Aug 3, 2011#7

Espy

No one minds when Samuel L Jackson does anything. He could play Annie in the Annie remake and no one would bat an eye. If he played every character in the Avengers it would only up the awesome factor.

Aug 3, 2011#8

Dave

Frankie Williamson said:
He was black in the Ultimates comics (and modeled after Samuel L.) LOOONG before Samuel L. Jackson actually played him in Iron Man.

= 2001

Oh I know. But he used to be white.

Aug 3, 2011#9

Covar

Still is.
Added at: 12:47
I heard the Laurence Fishborne thing, and quite frankly it's certainly not the worst decision made about this movie. I doubt the movie will ever get made (as is) anyway. Remember it took them over 20 years to create Superman Returns. Look how that turned out too.

Aug 3, 2011#10

Emrys

Espy said:
No one minds when Samuel L Jackson does anything. He could play Annie in the Annie remake and no one would bat an eye.

"The mother-f@$%ing sun will come out tomorrow"?

Aug 3, 2011#11

Allen who is Quiet

Emrys said:
"The mother-f@$%ing sun will come out tomorrow"?

Say "tomorrow" again. I dare you. I double dare you.

Aug 3, 2011#12

Shegokigo

Remember the crying out about this other comic book character?

or when Will Smith was being considered for Capt. America?

Aug 3, 2011#13

Adammon

ThatNickGuy said:
You know, I really, honestly and truly thought that society had moved beyond this racist crap, but apparently not.

First off, Lawrence Fishburne has been cast for the upcoming Superman movie, The Man of Steel:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/02/laurence-fishburne-is-perry-white-in-man-of-steel/

Personally, I think it's a great choice. I think back to him playing the soft-spoken father figure in the "real world" part of The Matrix and I think that could work really well for Perry White (combined with Fishburne's total badassery for when the chief gets angry).

But then, you've got people's jokes and reactions like "Um. Perry WHITE?" or "He's suposed to be white." I'm thinking, "Seriously? It's 2011, not 1911."

But then - AND THIS INCLUDES A MAJOR SPOILER FOR ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN...

...Marvel announced that, in the wake of Ult. Peter Parker's death, we have a new Spider-Man...

Miles Morales, a half-black, half-Hispanic teenager.

And the comments? Oh sweet leaping Jesus, the comments. Here's a link that has some of those comments:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/02/fear-of-a-black-spider-man/

To all of this, I keep thinking, WHO FUCKING CARES what colour they are? We've already had a black Kingpin in the Daredevil movie (who was great in said role) and a black Nick Fury played by Samuel L. motherfucking Jackson.

What's worse about Miles Morales, though? The only thing that's been announced about him so far his ethnicity. And already, there are people jumping on the hate bandwagon for that, alone, without knowing anything else about the character. Of course, we can partly blame Marvel for that, since that's all they've announced, too. It's like with DC announcing the new Batwoman is a *gasp!* lesbian! Of course, thanks to Greg Rucka, she turned out to be a fantastic, deep, interesting character. I expect the same from Ult. Spider-Man writer, Brian Michael Bendis.

But this general reaction of "OMG SPIDER-MAN IS BLACK!" is ridiculous. For one, it's the Ultimate universe, not the regular universe, so it's hardly as big a deal in the first place. You've still got the regular Peter Parker hopping around the 616 Marvel Universe.

It'd probably be okay if they called him Spider-mano.

Aug 3, 2011#14

Emrys

Allen who is Quiet said:
Say "tomorrow" again. I dare you. I double dare you.

Tomorrow

Aug 3, 2011#15

Dave

Emrys said:
Tomorrow

Aug 3, 2011#16

AshburnerX

Shegokigo said:
Remember the crying out about this other comic book character?

He was the only tolerable thing in that movie, mainly because he was PERFECT for the role of the Kingpin.

Aug 3, 2011#17

PatrThom

I think SLJ would be much better for the role of Daddy Warbucks, actually. And it would not be the first time we've had an undead Spider-Man.

--Patrick

Aug 3, 2011#18

Frankie Williamson

I've posted twice now and both weren't quite what I was trying to say. I read the article in USA Today where the artist said she hopes that at some point a black, or gay, or whatever hero might seem normal. Well, until Marvel themselves treat it as normal, no one will. Introducing people to the character by his ethnicity is not treating it as normal, it is going out of it's way of pointing out it's not normal.

I'm in the camp of who fucking cares what race he is? Thank Christ Ultimate Peter Parker finally got put out of his Jeph Loebish misery. Hopefully they won't feed this character to Loeb as soon as people aren't looking as I'm pretty sure he's sustained on the deaths of Ultimate universe characters.

Aug 3, 2011#19

Zappit

Shame the new Spider-Man probably won't last a full year, what with Bendis at the helm and all...probably will never get the chance he deserves.

Aug 3, 2011#20

SpecialKO

I'm pissed about Ultimate Pete dying, actually. What was happening to him in Ultimate Spidey (not counting all the BS in the Loeb/Millar side of the aisle) was compelling and good to read.

I wouldn't mind the STQ quite so much if only they didn't do it as a fucking Pavlovian response to things getting interesting. Every single goddamn time.

As to the new guy, I'm disappointed that it's not Ultimate Jessica Drew in new threads, or Arana, or Miguel O'Hara or something, but I'm sure BMB will do a decent job.

Just pissed about how it went down, 'cause at this rate he's either coming back as a massive retcon, or they'll make BMB turn the character into a slightly-darker-skinned Peter Parker (but now he's a MINORITY, so it's edgy!!).
Added at: 17:20
On a side-note, I want to say that the idea of SLJ as Annie is possibly the most fucking awesome thing someone on this forum has ever come up with since the Kanye meme.

Aug 3, 2011#21

Espy

SpecialKO said:
On a side-note, I want to say that the idea of SLJ as Annie is possibly the most fucking awesome thing someone on this forum has ever come up with since the Kanye meme.

You're welcome.

Aug 3, 2011#22

LittleSin

Dave said:
Nobody seems to mind that Samuel L. Jackson is Nick Fury. He used to be white as well.

I don't really care too much about the new Spider-Man being "ethnic", but I do have an issue with Spider-Man not being Peter Parker.

THIS. I don't care that Spider Man is black....I care because he's not Peter Parker.

I'm struggling on how to explain this. Okay...so Bruce Wayne is a mask for Batman, right? Well, I submit that Spider man was one of the few comic book character where the person and alter ego matched up. Spider-Man is Peter Parker and Peter Parker is Spider-Man.

I don't think its possible to have one with out the other.

Aug 3, 2011#23

Steve

Regarding the Superman news one would hope the best actor for the role is selected regardless of race. I would have no problem with a black actor cast as Superman, either. Considering Superman was created in an era where a black man was considered a second class citizen it's no wonder the book is all white. Times have changed and the cast should reflect the diversity on this planet.
Regarding Spiderman, if we can have a Spiderwoman and Ben Reilly, we can have this. With it being an Ultimate title there is no cannon set like in the Marvel Universe. As long as they tell great stories(and never fuck with the real Peter Parker) it really doesn't matter who wears the mask.

Aug 3, 2011#24

Covar

I wonder if there would be this much fuss if they named him Ben Reilly. Of course they already wasted that option redoing the clone saga.

Aug 3, 2011#25

Shegokigo

LittleSin said:
THIS. I don't care that Spider Man is black....I care because he's not Peter Parker.

I'm struggling on how to explain this. Okay...so Bruce Wayne is a mask for Batman, right? Well, I submit that Spider man was one of the few comic book character where the person and alter ego matched up. Spider-Man is Peter Parker and Peter Parker is Spider-Man.

I don't think its possible to have one with out the other.

I slightly disagree on the Batman thing, only because of Batman Beyond (even though Bruce was sort of still involved) and Nightwing/Batman. They were excellent takes on the original with their own feel. They were both fantastic.

Aug 3, 2011#26

Adammon

Covar said:
I wonder if there would be this much fuss if they named him Ben Reilly. Of course they already wasted that option redoing the clone saga.

Ultimate Ben Reilly was black

That would have made more sense story-wise considering his involvement with Peter's DNA wayyyyy back in the Carnage saga.

Aug 3, 2011#27

AshburnerX

Shegokigo said:
I slightly disagree on the Batman thing, only because of Batman Beyond (even though Bruce was sort of still involved) and Nightwing/Batman. They were excellent takes on the original with their own feel. They were both fantastic.

It could be argued that Terry McGinnis may have surpassed Bruce in a lot of ways. In fact, I'd say he's a lot more like Dick Grayson because they both saw what the job could do to you if you weren't careful.

- He hasn't isolated himself from the outside world like Bruce did. Terry may be Batman, but that's not all he is.
- He's not quite so hung-up on his father's death as Bruce was with his parents. You could argue that this is because he still has family, but it's likely more because he saw what happened to Bruce when it consumed him.
- He's not willing to give up on his girlfriend, even if it would make his life simpler. Bruce couldn't have a healthy relationship at all, mainly because his Batman duties would always come first. Also, because any woman Bruce was legitimately attracted to was ether a villain (Damian's mother), a chronic criminal (Selina Kyle/Catwoman), or as fucked up as he was (Diane/Wonder Woman).
- He's willing to work with other heroes and doesn't have the antagonistic attitude that Bruce always had (even if Terry is still stubborn about it).

I'm really enjoying the current Batman Beyond comic series and I hope it doesn't get tossed when they start up their new stuff next year.

Aug 3, 2011#28

phil

AshburnerX said:
It could be argued that Terry McGinnis may have surpassed Bruce in a lot of ways. In fact, I'd say he's a lot more like Dick Grayson because they both saw what the job could do to you if you weren't careful.

- He hasn't isolated himself from the outside world like Bruce did. Terry may be Batman, but that's not all he is.
- He's not quite so hung-up on his father's death as Bruce was with his parents. You could argue that this is because he still has family, but it's likely more because he saw what happened to Bruce when it consumed him.
- He's not willing to give up on his girlfriend, even if it would make his life simpler. Bruce couldn't have a healthy relationship at all, mainly because his Batman duties would always come first. Also, because any woman Bruce was legitimately attracted to was ether a villain (Damian's mother), a chronic criminal (Selina Kyle/Catwoman), or as fucked up as he was (Diane/Wonder Woman).
- He's willing to work with other heroes and doesn't have the antagonistic attitude that Bruce always had (even if Terry is still stubborn about it).

I'm really enjoying the current Batman Beyond comic series and I hope it doesn't get tossed when they start up their new stuff next year.

I didn't know there was a batman beyond comic out! I'll have to check it out. Did you see that there is a batman beyond skin for Arkham City?

As for the thread at hand I think the whole thing is just stupid. I don't know why people really care that much about race in this kind of stuff. Even if this were the main universe it should still be seen as an interesting change to the story.

Aug 3, 2011#29

Adammon

Apparently they're making him gay too. I appreciate inclusiveness as much as the next guy but this just smells of creating characters with certain traits for the sake of being different, not for the sake of making a good story.

Aug 3, 2011#30

Shegokigo

They really need to make a stand like Sohmer.

"I will not change my characters because the producers think it's a good idea"

Aug 3, 2011#31

SpecialKO

Adammon said:
Apparently they're making him gay too. I appreciate inclusiveness as much as the next guy but this just smells of creating characters with certain traits for the sake of being different, not for the sake of making a good story.

Really? Hmmm...don't get me wrong, I have no problem with a black and gay super-hero, but given the Big Two's history in dealing with minorities....

Aug 3, 2011#32

AshburnerX

phil said:
I didn't know there was a batman beyond comic out! I'll have to check it out. Did you see that there is a batman beyond skin for Arkham City?

Yeah, it's on issue 7 of the series, with a 4 part story before that. Best part? Everything that happened on the show is canon, including the movie. I'm not sure if it's part of the main universe though... Batman INC is mentioned in an issue, but I'm not sure how they can do the Tim Drake kills the Joker thing now that he's almost old enough to be an adult. They could switch Tim Drake with Damien and it works, but they'd still be killing off the Joker.

Aug 3, 2011#33

Covar

SpecialKO said:
Really? Hmmm...don't get me wrong, I have no problem with a black and gay super-hero, but given the Big Two's history in dealing with minorities....

Hispanic, Black gay super-hero.

Aug 3, 2011#34

SpecialKO

Covar said:
Hispanic, Black gay super-hero.

My mistake.

It may just be the way that the interviewer is framing it, but does anyone else think that this sounds, well, like they put no thought into this whatsoever?

Aug 3, 2011#35

figmentPez

phil said:
I didn't know there was a batman beyond comic out! I'll have to check it out. Did you see that there is a batman beyond skin for Arkham City?

Pre-order bonus content for Gamestop, and possibly only in the UK? Ugh.

Aug 3, 2011#36

phil

figmentPez said:
Pre-order bonus content for Gamestop, and possibly only in the UK? Ugh.

What? laaaaaaaaaaaaame

Aug 3, 2011#37

Hailey Knight

SpecialKO said:
It may just be the way that the interviewer is framing it, but does anyone else think that this sounds, well, like they put no thought into this whatsoever?

No kidding:

“Going into this we knew we wanted to make a statement about the 21st century,” said Marvel editor-in-chief Axel Alonso.

"Spider-Man is arguably the most recognizable superhero on the planet and little kids like my son Tito can relate to him because of the red-and-blue tights,” Alonso said.

Yeah...

Aug 3, 2011#38

sixpackshaker

Covar said:
Hispanic, Black gay super-hero.

Drop the "Black" and you have the new Question. Who used to work with Batman in the Animated Series as Lt. Montoya. So the Question is now a triple-threat-minority... Female/Gay/Hispanic now everyone will love DC's second greatest detective.

I wish they would create a character, not a stereotype. Develop a character and make his/her sexuality not matter. Good stories/Great Saves... catch the villains. Let the gay/strait decision come up later.

Aug 4, 2011#39

figmentPez

sixpackshaker said:
I wish they would create a character, not a stereotype. Develop a character and make his/her sexuality not matter. Good stories/Great Saves... catch the villains. Let the gay/strait decision come up later.

Well, that's one of the problems in current pop-culture. Sexuality is considered to be an essential defining characteristic. Media demands that everyone over 13 have a sexual identity and be defined by who they're attracted to, who is attracted to them, who they're dating, who they've kissed, etc. It's an absurdly skewed focus, but such prurient interest is pretty pervasive in pop-culture, for both fictional and non-fictional personalities. With that viewpoint, it's impossible to create a character without answering the gay/straight question. The assumption is that sexuality is an essential check-box in the basic questionnaire, right after "Hero or Villain?".

Aug 4, 2011#40

PatrThom

mr_thehun said:
At least it's not a female black/hispanic, lesbian, single mother, drug addicted, aids infected, rape survivor, Spider man.

You ever read The Pro? It's not that far off.

--Patrick

Aug 4, 2011#41

ThatNickGuy

PatrThom said:
You ever read The Pro? It's not that far off.

--Patrick

Aside from her being female and a single mother, what else of that list defines The Pro, exactly? Yeah, it's a crude, low-brow book, but she's not AIDS infected, a lesbian or a rape survivor.

Aug 4, 2011#42

Shegokigo

I did a standing ovation after that post for you Fig. Bloody well said.

Aug 5, 2011#43

HCGLNS

Aug 5, 2011#44

SpecialKO

Probably my favorite part of She-Hulk.

Aug 6, 2011#45

Steve

What pisses me off the most is how the half black half hispanic Spider Man gets all this press but Spider Kitty gets jack squat in the media. I will not allow the masses to ignore Spider Kitty anymore.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/comics...s-in-Spider-Island-digital-comic-series_n.htm

Aug 9, 2011#46

fade

*head scratch* So...... It's not cool to point out when a white character is cast with a non-white actor, but it's a travesty to cast kids of indeterminate race in a made-up Asian-flavored setting with white actors? The day I'M waiting for is the one when it's cool to be someone not white AND still okay to be white, too.

Aug 9, 2011#47

PatrThom

Mentioned this thread to Kati: "It's about how the new Spider-Man is going to be half Black, half Hispanic, and gay."
Her response: "Poor Mary Jane."

--Patrick

Aug 9, 2011#48

AshburnerX

mr_thehun said:
They renamed Mary Jane to Mark John

I heard it was Marty Joe.

Aug 9, 2011#49

Vagabond

Mary-Jane can't have Peter Parker in either of the main continuities now.

Quesada wins.

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