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Hey Scythe, random WarCraft questions
#1
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
(Warcraft spoilers, for random interlopers, although most of this is pretty old news)
In the book "The Last Guardian" we get a decent glimpse into Garona's psyche. She seems like a pretty decent dudette. At the time it sort of looked like she and Khadgar might have turned out to be a thing. We see that in the future when she kills King Lane she's pretty sad about it.
I stopped following WarCraft as closely for a while, then suddenly apparently Garona has a son, courtesy of Medivh (seemed pretty random to me. I realize the whole Garona/Khadgar fanfic in my head wasn't remotely canon, but made a hell of a lot more sense to me and would have been just as useful in terms of setting up her son as the next guardian or whatever's going on there).
The questions I have are, 1) have we ever been given a satisfying reason as to WHY she killed Lane? I assumed Gul'Dan had some kind of blackmail hold over her, but the only piece of info I recall seeing indicated she just "realized it was her destiny" which I think is a pretty lame reason.
2) What exactly is the deal with Medan, Medivh, and Garona? Is there a comic/novel that really does justice to the character development there, or is it just random backstory we are supposed to accept? Periodically I tried reading the comics but they never really seemed worth reading for their own sake and I stopped caring about reading everything WoW related simply because it was WoW related a while ago. I got the sense that anything resembling continued friendship or at least professional relationship between Khadgar and Garona was just dropped, but if they replaced it with something genuinely interesting I might be inclined to forgive them.
In the book "The Last Guardian" we get a decent glimpse into Garona's psyche. She seems like a pretty decent dudette. At the time it sort of looked like she and Khadgar might have turned out to be a thing. We see that in the future when she kills King Lane she's pretty sad about it.
I stopped following WarCraft as closely for a while, then suddenly apparently Garona has a son, courtesy of Medivh (seemed pretty random to me. I realize the whole Garona/Khadgar fanfic in my head wasn't remotely canon, but made a hell of a lot more sense to me and would have been just as useful in terms of setting up her son as the next guardian or whatever's going on there).
The questions I have are, 1) have we ever been given a satisfying reason as to WHY she killed Lane? I assumed Gul'Dan had some kind of blackmail hold over her, but the only piece of info I recall seeing indicated she just "realized it was her destiny" which I think is a pretty lame reason.
2) What exactly is the deal with Medan, Medivh, and Garona? Is there a comic/novel that really does justice to the character development there, or is it just random backstory we are supposed to accept? Periodically I tried reading the comics but they never really seemed worth reading for their own sake and I stopped caring about reading everything WoW related simply because it was WoW related a while ago. I got the sense that anything resembling continued friendship or at least professional relationship between Khadgar and Garona was just dropped, but if they replaced it with something genuinely interesting I might be inclined to forgive them.
#2
ScytheRexx
Either way, the comic basically explained that Medivh found himself growing affection for Garona with was free will he had left. One day, for whatever reason, Sargeras stopped controlling him for a time, in which he showed Garona how he felt and the two made love, conceiving Med'an, before Sargeras took back control and carried out the rest of the events that would lead to Medivh's death and the fall of Stormwind some time later.
I have to be honest, Med'an is one of those character I think WarCraft would be better if he never existed. Born the son of two powerful heroes, one a Guardian. He has the blood of human, orc, and draenei. He knows all magical schools, including druidism, shamanism, light magic and arcane magic. He was even trained by Meryl, a mage and former Guardian that was so powerful that he endured for thousands of years just on his magic and will, becoming some quasi-undead being. Oh, and they never explained how Garona even knew this mage enough to give her newborn son to him. It just felt like a giant cliche, and not in a good way. Many of us lore-fanatics love to give Rhonin a bunch of crap for his Gary Stu'ism, but Med'an makes Rhonin's characterization look deep.
ScytheRexx
Gul'dan raised Garona to be his personal killing machine, and thus enchanted her with various magic and runes that forced her to do his bidding when he spoke certain magical phrases and incantations. Gul'dan found out about her work with Llane and decided to use her new friendship with the King to his advantage, speaking the incantations that would force her to carry out the assassination when he was vulnerable. Years later in the comics, Cho'gal, who as we know was once Gul'dan apprentice, knew of the incantations used by his old master, and used them to capture and force Garona to try and assassinate Varian and Anduin Wrynn. With Cho'gal's supposed death, the incantations died with him, and thus Garona is free until someone else who knows the words comes forward, or our big two headed cultcomes back from the dead.1) have we ever been given a satisfying reason as to WHY she killed Lane? I assumed Gul'Dan had some kind of blackmail hold over her, but the only piece of info I recall seeing indicated she just "realized it was her destiny" which I think is a pretty lame reason.
The story of Med'an, I admit, always felt a bit forced. I always assumed that he would be the son of Khadgar, since the two did show a much more genuine attachment in The Last Guardian then that of Garona and Medivh, who kept the relationship entirely professional throughout the novel. The only hints that can even be considered in the book is when Khadgar and Garona escape Karazhan, at which point Garona makes a uncharacteristic big deal over the fact Medivh was Sargeras the whole time, which can hint to an unknown further relationship that brewed beyond the eyes of the readers.2) What exactly is the deal with Medan, Medivh, and Garona? Is there a comic/novel that really does justice to the character development there, or is it just random backstory we are supposed to accept?
Either way, the comic basically explained that Medivh found himself growing affection for Garona with was free will he had left. One day, for whatever reason, Sargeras stopped controlling him for a time, in which he showed Garona how he felt and the two made love, conceiving Med'an, before Sargeras took back control and carried out the rest of the events that would lead to Medivh's death and the fall of Stormwind some time later.
I have to be honest, Med'an is one of those character I think WarCraft would be better if he never existed. Born the son of two powerful heroes, one a Guardian. He has the blood of human, orc, and draenei. He knows all magical schools, including druidism, shamanism, light magic and arcane magic. He was even trained by Meryl, a mage and former Guardian that was so powerful that he endured for thousands of years just on his magic and will, becoming some quasi-undead being. Oh, and they never explained how Garona even knew this mage enough to give her newborn son to him. It just felt like a giant cliche, and not in a good way. Many of us lore-fanatics love to give Rhonin a bunch of crap for his Gary Stu'ism, but Med'an makes Rhonin's characterization look deep.
#3
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
I actually like the IDEA of Me'dan. WarCraft has (sort of, although haphazardly) grown into a commentary on racism, and the fact that this child who is the product of 3 different races plus all kinds of additional multicultural influences turning out to be the savior of the world is somewhat appropriate. I just really wish they put more of an effort into fleshing out the character and following up on the plot threads they had set up so far rather than churning out something random and shallow.
In my personal magical Raemon land canon I am pretending he is Khadgar's son.
Gul'Dan having the command works mades a deal of sense though.
In my personal magical Raemon land canon I am pretending he is Khadgar's son.
Gul'Dan having the command works mades a deal of sense though.
#4
ScytheRexx
The prophecy of Med'an is that he will either save the world, or destroy it. There are rumors that Sargeras may have passed on part of his essence into Med'an much in the same way he passed on part of his essence to Aegwynn and later Medivh, but that he is right now laying dormant till something "activates" him. Med'an has also become a major target of the Old Gods, who constantly try whispering to him. For all we know right now, he could become a raid boss in the future, and thus would be going in the other direction then you imply, showing the danger to to much intermingling.
Really, I would have no issue if he was multi-racial, maybe a half-orc. I have no issue is he learned a few multi-skills, like maybe arcane and holy, or arcane and shamanism. It's the fact he takes on everything to an extreme degree and never really did anything to earn the trust so many people put in him. I mean, let's look at Thrall for instance as a comparison here.
Thrall was born to Durotan, a very average chieftain from a small clan, and Draka, a strong warrior woman but nothing more then that. Med'an was born to the Last Guardian of Tirisfal, who at the time was possessed by the ultimate demonic entity, and his mother was a half-orc, half-draenei ultra assassin. Not only that, but he was a one in a million birth, as most half-breeds can't reproduce.
Thrall was taken as a baby and thrown into slave pens, raised as a "pet" to a human, and was trained by a average human man named Sergeant most of his young life. He later escaped, learned his language from Grom, and then finally found his clan and learned Shamanism from Drek'Thar. He had a long journey to gain his power. Med'an was given to a former Guardian, super-mage that cheated death. Was kept in Duskwood being trained in magic for over twenty years to become a extremely powerful caster, then one event causes him to go out, almost get killed, and suddenly everyone from Broll, to Jaina, to even his long lost paladin uncle, are jumping out to train him other magics. Oh, and did I forget to mention he knew how to speak with the elemental spirits AUTOMATICALLY? He just up and starts talking to them.
That is why his character is so hallow. He was born to be this savior figure with no weight behind him other then all the people and things ATTACHED to him. It was as if Blizzard thought "we need to make this guy important so let's just throw all this stuff on him so people think WOW this guy is important!" Most of us find him an absolute failure of a character.
ScytheRexx
I don't really feel it is all that appropriate.I actually like the IDEA of Me'dan. WarCraft has (sort of, although haphazardly) grown into a commentary on racism, and the fact that this child who is the product of 3 different races plus all kinds of additional multicultural influences turning out to be the savior of the world is somewhat appropriate. I just really wish they put more of an effort into fleshing out the character and following up on the plot threads they had set up so far rather than churning out something random and shallow.
The prophecy of Med'an is that he will either save the world, or destroy it. There are rumors that Sargeras may have passed on part of his essence into Med'an much in the same way he passed on part of his essence to Aegwynn and later Medivh, but that he is right now laying dormant till something "activates" him. Med'an has also become a major target of the Old Gods, who constantly try whispering to him. For all we know right now, he could become a raid boss in the future, and thus would be going in the other direction then you imply, showing the danger to to much intermingling.
Really, I would have no issue if he was multi-racial, maybe a half-orc. I have no issue is he learned a few multi-skills, like maybe arcane and holy, or arcane and shamanism. It's the fact he takes on everything to an extreme degree and never really did anything to earn the trust so many people put in him. I mean, let's look at Thrall for instance as a comparison here.
Thrall was born to Durotan, a very average chieftain from a small clan, and Draka, a strong warrior woman but nothing more then that. Med'an was born to the Last Guardian of Tirisfal, who at the time was possessed by the ultimate demonic entity, and his mother was a half-orc, half-draenei ultra assassin. Not only that, but he was a one in a million birth, as most half-breeds can't reproduce.
Thrall was taken as a baby and thrown into slave pens, raised as a "pet" to a human, and was trained by a average human man named Sergeant most of his young life. He later escaped, learned his language from Grom, and then finally found his clan and learned Shamanism from Drek'Thar. He had a long journey to gain his power. Med'an was given to a former Guardian, super-mage that cheated death. Was kept in Duskwood being trained in magic for over twenty years to become a extremely powerful caster, then one event causes him to go out, almost get killed, and suddenly everyone from Broll, to Jaina, to even his long lost paladin uncle, are jumping out to train him other magics. Oh, and did I forget to mention he knew how to speak with the elemental spirits AUTOMATICALLY? He just up and starts talking to them.
That is why his character is so hallow. He was born to be this savior figure with no weight behind him other then all the people and things ATTACHED to him. It was as if Blizzard thought "we need to make this guy important so let's just throw all this stuff on him so people think WOW this guy is important!" Most of us find him an absolute failure of a character.
#5
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
I think the problem there is not that he had all this stuff thrown at him, but that they didn't give anything to deserve it.
One of my favorite character portrayals in John Connor, as he is depicted in the Sarah Connor Chronicles TV show. It is, as far as I recall, the only time I've seen a character who was born to be savior, told from birth he was born to be a savior, and whom we actually get to see the real, psychological ramifications of that. He is constantly being reminded that multiple people he knows are going to die for him, willingly, because he really is that important, and seeing all that death drives him to try and detach himself from humanity. The show demonstrated to me that such characters really can be interesting, so long as you do them right. They might, for example, have had a really interesting scene between him and Thrall, with Thrall a) being a little jealous and annoyed that Me'Dan had all this stuff handed to him, b) Me'Dan could be portrayed initially as kind of stuck and full of himself, having been raised a single child by an ancient Guardian. Me'Dan makes some kind of mistake, based around not taking someone else's struggle seriously, and Thrall lays into him for it, and you get some actual character growth for not only the new character but an established one who had devolved somewhat into more of an icon than an actual character.
It would take some writer finesse to handle right. Unfortunately, WoW is a franchise story written by a hodge podge of writers of varying skill levels, many of which have no particular attachment to it.
One of my favorite character portrayals in John Connor, as he is depicted in the Sarah Connor Chronicles TV show. It is, as far as I recall, the only time I've seen a character who was born to be savior, told from birth he was born to be a savior, and whom we actually get to see the real, psychological ramifications of that. He is constantly being reminded that multiple people he knows are going to die for him, willingly, because he really is that important, and seeing all that death drives him to try and detach himself from humanity. The show demonstrated to me that such characters really can be interesting, so long as you do them right. They might, for example, have had a really interesting scene between him and Thrall, with Thrall a) being a little jealous and annoyed that Me'Dan had all this stuff handed to him, b) Me'Dan could be portrayed initially as kind of stuck and full of himself, having been raised a single child by an ancient Guardian. Me'Dan makes some kind of mistake, based around not taking someone else's struggle seriously, and Thrall lays into him for it, and you get some actual character growth for not only the new character but an established one who had devolved somewhat into more of an icon than an actual character.
It would take some writer finesse to handle right. Unfortunately, WoW is a franchise story written by a hodge podge of writers of varying skill levels, many of which have no particular attachment to it.
#6
Rubicon
Rubicon
am I the only WoW player who finds its lore and backstory completely assbackwards? You got aliens and old gods and demons and dimensional gateways coming out of every orifice and every time you turn around there's some random person on either faction side who's played an important role in something that really means something to some part of the story, etc You got dragons that are supposedly the most powerful beings there are but they all sit back and like, war with each other, you got aliens from other planets who just happen to have the same class system the people of Azeroth has and it just gets more and more confusing. There are parts of it that seem friggin sweet, like The Emerald Dream or Exodar but others are just convoluted scribble attempting to be a cohesive story.
#7
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
What it comes down is that, with the advent of WoW (as opposed to WarCraft III) you are dealing with an entire WORLD, and worlds do not necessarily have cohesive backstories that unify everything into perfectly. I agree that lots of WoW feels very hodgepodged together. And I do think that can be improved. But that's how the real world is, and I think any MMO that big would suffer from similar issues. But the original ideas that formed the backbone of the story were good.
#8
@Li3n
@Li3n
Yeah they do... otherwise science wouldn't work...and worlds do not necessarily have cohesive backstories that unify everything into perfectly.
#9
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
Well, WoW has that part covered: the Old Gods were there first, Titans came and reshaped everything. The end.
Earth was created by condensed gas, resulting from earlier supernovas. That doesn't tell us anything about the socio-political relationships between the United States and Afganistan, and why those things have little to do with Australia. In WoW, the Old Gods/Titans storylines basically represent the "science" backstory, and Arthas/Orcs/World Tree/Me'Dan all represent the political subplots that don't necessarily have to do with each other.
Earth was created by condensed gas, resulting from earlier supernovas. That doesn't tell us anything about the socio-political relationships between the United States and Afganistan, and why those things have little to do with Australia. In WoW, the Old Gods/Titans storylines basically represent the "science" backstory, and Arthas/Orcs/World Tree/Me'Dan all represent the political subplots that don't necessarily have to do with each other.
#10
@Li3n
And it has everything to do with Australia, or has it already been retcon that they're all the British Empire's fault?!
@Li3n
Let's not start the retcon thing again...Well, WoW has that part covered: the Old Gods were there first, Titans came and reshaped everything. The end.
Well i'm glad you seem to think the US and Afghanistan popped out into existence out of some outer realms with little cause and effect...Earth was created by condensed gas, resulting from earlier supernovas. That doesn't tell us anything about the socio-political relationships between the United States and Afganistan, and why those things have little to do with Australia. In WoW, the Old Gods/Titans storylines basically represent the "science" backstory, and Arthas/Orcs/World Tree/Me'Dan all represent the political subplots that don't necessarily have to do with each other.
And it has everything to do with Australia, or has it already been retcon that they're all the British Empire's fault?!
#11
ScytheRexx
At some point after the Titan's dropped the seeding machines, the Old Gods appeared. Whether this was because they already existed but were in hiding, or because they found the world themselves after the Ordering has begun, is unknown. All that we know is they attempted to take the planet, subjugating the elementals and whispering to any organic life that existed at the time to serve them or go insane.
The issue is that the Titan's creations didn't have free will, they were developed with a single minded purpose and didn't stray from those charges. The Old Gods were unable to influence them because they didn't have a will to influence, and thus they cursed them to over time convert to flesh and blood, bringing with the transformation free will, and thus the ability for the Old Gods to influence them.
The Titan's, who had a network of warning systems in case something was going wrong on seeded worlds, saw something was happening and turned around to visit the plant more closely. They landed on Azeroth to find most of the seed races were already infected with the curse of flesh. They upgraded the Forge of Wills to make future constructs immune to the curse, and then went to war with the Old Gods, defeating them but unable to kill them, since the parasitic creatures had bound themselves to the very core of the world. Destroying them would lead to the destruction of Azeroth, and so the Titan's instead imprisoned them.
This has actually lead to theories that Azeroth itself is more special then people realize. The implication is that the Titan's mostly take a "hands off" approach to the Ordering process, but that the Old Gods drove them to land on Azeroth and craft it personally, allowing them to experiment and leave behind more fonts of power and ruins. We may learn more about it in the future.
Also, it has been implied since Burning Crusade that the Old Gods also travel through space much like the Titans, and that many more other then the Azeroth Old Gods may exist out in the Great Dark.
ScytheRexx
Technically this information has been altered slightly. The Titans actually found Azeroth first, nothing but a primordial rock floating in the Great Dark. They "seeded" the planet for Ordering, which basically means they dropped the machines that would create the Earthen, the Mechagnomes, and Giants, etc...Well, WoW has that part covered: the Old Gods were there first, Titans came and reshaped everything. The end.
At some point after the Titan's dropped the seeding machines, the Old Gods appeared. Whether this was because they already existed but were in hiding, or because they found the world themselves after the Ordering has begun, is unknown. All that we know is they attempted to take the planet, subjugating the elementals and whispering to any organic life that existed at the time to serve them or go insane.
The issue is that the Titan's creations didn't have free will, they were developed with a single minded purpose and didn't stray from those charges. The Old Gods were unable to influence them because they didn't have a will to influence, and thus they cursed them to over time convert to flesh and blood, bringing with the transformation free will, and thus the ability for the Old Gods to influence them.
The Titan's, who had a network of warning systems in case something was going wrong on seeded worlds, saw something was happening and turned around to visit the plant more closely. They landed on Azeroth to find most of the seed races were already infected with the curse of flesh. They upgraded the Forge of Wills to make future constructs immune to the curse, and then went to war with the Old Gods, defeating them but unable to kill them, since the parasitic creatures had bound themselves to the very core of the world. Destroying them would lead to the destruction of Azeroth, and so the Titan's instead imprisoned them.
This has actually lead to theories that Azeroth itself is more special then people realize. The implication is that the Titan's mostly take a "hands off" approach to the Ordering process, but that the Old Gods drove them to land on Azeroth and craft it personally, allowing them to experiment and leave behind more fonts of power and ruins. We may learn more about it in the future.
Also, it has been implied since Burning Crusade that the Old Gods also travel through space much like the Titans, and that many more other then the Azeroth Old Gods may exist out in the Great Dark.
#12
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Raemon777
As for US, Afganistan and Australia, I can't tell whether you're just messing with or if you actually misinterpreted what I said that grossly.
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Raemon777
Well, um, this started by Mav mentionin how WoW is a hodge podge of randoms stuff, Old Gods included. If you suddenly want to IGNORE that part of the conversation, well, okay. Then the conversation is over though.Let's not start the retcon thing again...
As for US, Afganistan and Australia, I can't tell whether you're just messing with or if you actually misinterpreted what I said that grossly.
#13
@Li3n
See, human history is a cohesive story, even if we don't know it very well, because our world has that thing with the cause and effect and stuff.
And unless i'm wrong Mav was kinda complaining about the "A Wizard did it!" nature of some of the stuff in WoW...
@Li3n
That was a jab at Scythe actually... (in WC3 the Old Gods where defeated by the Titans before they did anything to Azeroth: http://www.scribd.com/doc/10939387/Warcraft-III-Manual , thus the info in his latest post is a retcon).Well, um, this started by Mav mentionin how WoW is a hodge podge of randoms stuff, Old Gods included. If you suddenly want to IGNORE that part of the conversation, well, okay. Then the conversation is over though.Let's not start the retcon thing again...
Nah, i know what you meant, i was more picking on how you said it.As for US, Afganistan and Australia, I can't tell whether you're just messing with or if you actually misinterpreted what I said that grossly.
See, human history is a cohesive story, even if we don't know it very well, because our world has that thing with the cause and effect and stuff.
And unless i'm wrong Mav was kinda complaining about the "A Wizard did it!" nature of some of the stuff in WoW...
#14
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
I think WoW's world has just as much cause and effect. It's just that it's a world that involves wizards. And yes, periodically they do things.
#15
@Li3n
@Li3n
I see someone is not familiar with TV.Tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt
Say goodbye to your life...
Say goodbye to your life...
#16
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
No I'm well familiar with TV tropes. Which is part of why my line was supposed to be extra funny.
Edit: I forgot that "Wizard did it" applied specifically to continuity errors, as opposed to random ridiculous things, but Mav hadn't been complaining about continuity errors anyway.
Edit: I forgot that "Wizard did it" applied specifically to continuity errors, as opposed to random ridiculous things, but Mav hadn't been complaining about continuity errors anyway.
#17
@Li3n
@Li3n
While continuity errors are the meat of it there are plenty of examples in that entry that are just about bizarre, random stuff.
#18
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
Mav's entry or the TV tropes entry?
In any case, when something random and bizarre happens in a fantasy world, it is perfectly acceptable for the answer to be "a wizard did it." Conversely, when you have a world with wizards capable of doing bizarre things, it stands to reason that bizarre things not only can but SHOULD happen.
In any case, when something random and bizarre happens in a fantasy world, it is perfectly acceptable for the answer to be "a wizard did it." Conversely, when you have a world with wizards capable of doing bizarre things, it stands to reason that bizarre things not only can but SHOULD happen.
#19
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
I agree with you. WoW is a big soap opera.am I the only WoW player who finds its lore and backstory completely assbackwards? You got aliens and old gods and demons and dimensional gateways coming out of every orifice and every time you turn around there's some random person on either faction side who's played an important role in something that really means something to some part of the story, etc You got dragons that are supposedly the most powerful beings there are but they all sit back and like, war with each other, you got aliens from other planets who just happen to have the same class system the people of Azeroth has and it just gets more and more confusing. There are parts of it that seem friggin sweet, like The Emerald Dream or Exodar but others are just convoluted scribble attempting to be a cohesive story.
#20
Rubicon
Rubicon
I'm really into the lore of WoW and stuff but as a nerd, even I get confused. I guess thats why I never really dug myself into the LOTR world, I mean the 3 books were great but theres just way to much information and back & forths to really digest coherently. It just seems to be that, there are soooo many super mega powerful beings in the WoW universe right, why is this one planet so important with two humonoid factions fighting a war? In the grand scheme of things cant super beings that are still around just like, blink an eye and wipe them all out? I don't think a 25 man raid in tier 10 gear is going to, ya know, stop something more powerful than creation itself right?Well, um, this started by Mav mentionin how WoW is a hodge podge of randoms stuff, Old Gods included. If you suddenly want to IGNORE that part of the conversation, well, okay. Then the conversation is over though.Let's not start the retcon thing again...
As for US, Afganistan and Australia, I can't tell whether you're just messing with or if you actually misinterpreted what I said that grossly.
#21
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Raemon777
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Raemon777
Well so far we haven't seen a 25 man tier raid against something that powerful. (While Death Wing is probably the single most powerful being in Azeroth, he's not more powerful than creation itself). But yes, I do expect we will by the final expansion, whenever that is. I'm not sure who we will kill first, Sargeras or whoever the boss of the Old Gods is. But that point, everyone will be level 100, there will probably be a series of lead up quests in which you somehow make Sargeras mortal/vulnerable
As for the importance of Azeroth: well, right now we don't know that it IS all that important. There's a great big universe out there. That universe contains a lot of powerful beings, which makes sense, because the universe is big. Just because Azeroth happens to be a chess piece that multiple epic beings have a stake in doesn't mean they're all completely centered on it, just that it happens to be a significant resource that multiple people want. (Comparison: Afganistan during the Cold War. Both of the "superpowers" of the world at a time had a stake in it, but not because Afganistan itself was singularly important).
However, Scythe's theory listed above makes reasonable sense.
And as for "blinking and wiping them out," being powerful in one way does not make you powerful in every way. It's also less relevant when your power is matched by someone else's. It's been established that Sargeras doesn't have the power to fully manifest whenever he wants. Doing so takes time and effort and manipulation of mortals to summon him which can take decades (or centuries) to set up properly. This might be because Titan artifacts prevent him from doing so, or simply because a being that big and powerful just has a harder time moving through portals or whatever.
As for the importance of Azeroth: well, right now we don't know that it IS all that important. There's a great big universe out there. That universe contains a lot of powerful beings, which makes sense, because the universe is big. Just because Azeroth happens to be a chess piece that multiple epic beings have a stake in doesn't mean they're all completely centered on it, just that it happens to be a significant resource that multiple people want. (Comparison: Afganistan during the Cold War. Both of the "superpowers" of the world at a time had a stake in it, but not because Afganistan itself was singularly important).
However, Scythe's theory listed above makes reasonable sense.
And as for "blinking and wiping them out," being powerful in one way does not make you powerful in every way. It's also less relevant when your power is matched by someone else's. It's been established that Sargeras doesn't have the power to fully manifest whenever he wants. Doing so takes time and effort and manipulation of mortals to summon him which can take decades (or centuries) to set up properly. This might be because Titan artifacts prevent him from doing so, or simply because a being that big and powerful just has a harder time moving through portals or whatever.
#22
ScytheRexx
One of the more interesting things is that technically very few of the "big" bosses we actually defeat ourselves. Illidan you have to fight with Maiev and Akama, and it is Maiev that technically kills him. Kil'jaeden you attack while he is still coming through the portal, and Kalegos helps defend you before Anveena gives her life to throw the full might of the Sunwell at the demon lord, and even then it only sends him back through the portal rather then killing him.
Hey, during the Lich King fight we actually LOSE, and we lose hardcore.
So technically yes, there are beings out there that for all intents and purposes would destroy us. The game would be rather short though if Blizzard didn't make excuses for them not to be obliterating us.
ScytheRexx
Not sure what you are arguing, we have never fought anything more powerful then creation itself. The most powerful creatures in the universe are the Titan's, and possibly the Old Gods. So far the two Old Gods we have fought have been at a disadvantage, C'Thun still regenerating from his original "death" and Yogg-Saron still being 98% imprisoned in the ground when you basically beat his "skull" in. We have yet to fight a Titan, only those created by them. The whole Algalon fight takes place because we are trying to prevent them from returning, since doing such would basically be game over if they deem the planet beyond saving.In the grand scheme of things cant super beings that are still around just like, blink an eye and wipe them all out? I don't think a 25 man raid in tier 10 gear is going to, ya know, stop something more powerful than creation itself right?
One of the more interesting things is that technically very few of the "big" bosses we actually defeat ourselves. Illidan you have to fight with Maiev and Akama, and it is Maiev that technically kills him. Kil'jaeden you attack while he is still coming through the portal, and Kalegos helps defend you before Anveena gives her life to throw the full might of the Sunwell at the demon lord, and even then it only sends him back through the portal rather then killing him.
Hey, during the Lich King fight we actually LOSE, and we lose hardcore.
The Lich King at a certain percentage of life kills everyone in the raid with a single spell, regardless of life or immunities. He then taunts Tirion, who for the whole fight was imprisoned in ice. Tirion calls on the Light and breaks free, attacking the Lich King while he is distracted, shattering Frostmourne at the tip. The blade being broken causes the thousands of souls it claimed over the years to rush out and they swarm the Lich King as the ghost of King Terenas resurrects everyone. Only then, while he is powerless to defend himself due to all the raging souls engulfing him, do you and Tirion kill him.
So technically yes, there are beings out there that for all intents and purposes would destroy us. The game would be rather short though if Blizzard didn't make excuses for them not to be obliterating us.
#23
Dave
Dave
I agree with Mav in that the Azeroth thing seems to be inching towards Dragonball-Z territory. "I am all powerful!" "HA! HA! I defeat you!" "Then I arise even more powerful!" "Curse you! Here's my son!"
Blech. Just tell me where to gank the Hellboars and I'll be happy.
Blech. Just tell me where to gank the Hellboars and I'll be happy.
#24
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
I think you actually have it backwards. Dragonball Z is what you get when you take a long term RPG and turn it into a show. Everyone starts the show at level one (well, they start Dragonball that way anyway) and then, instead of stopping the show when they hit level 20 (which was the original plan, from what I know), they just keep going.
Any MMO will be affected by the fact that, well, you can't end it. You keep needing new content, to keep players paying money. So you keep needing bigger and badder bosses to fight.
Any MMO will be affected by the fact that, well, you can't end it. You keep needing new content, to keep players paying money. So you keep needing bigger and badder bosses to fight.
#25
Dave
Dave
That's my point, actually. And it's why the lore means nothing to me.
#26
@Li3n
Just look at the first one about Evangelion... it's more about a lack of internal consistency...
@Li3n
The tvtropes one, as i'd be refering to it as a post instead if it was about Mav's post.Mav's entry or the TV tropes entry?
In any case, when something random and bizarre happens in a fantasy world, it is perfectly acceptable for the answer to be "a wizard did it." Conversely, when you have a world with wizards capable of doing bizarre things, it stands to reason that bizarre things not only can but SHOULD happen.
Just look at the first one about Evangelion... it's more about a lack of internal consistency...
#27
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
Does this mean he kills everyone "but you," or that Tirion brings you back to life? I assume this uses phasing? It sounds pretty awesome either way.Only then, while he is powerless to defend himself due to all the raging souls engulfing him, do you and Tirion kill him.
#28
Bowielee
Bowielee
I want to see the Lich King encounter so bad. I do love the lore of the WC universe, which is one of the reasons I had problems with WoW. I WANTED to see the death of Illidan. I WANTED to take on Kel'Thuzad, I wanted to fight the Lich King. But because I wasn't a raider, I never got to see any of it.
#29
ScytheRexx
ScytheRexx
It means he kills everyone, including you. You can only finish the fight when Frostmourne is destroyed, and King Terenas' spirit appears and resurrects you to help him finish the Lich King while he is being bombarded by the souls of the dead. Better yet, just watch it yourself. Start at 2:50.Does this mean he kills everyone \"but you,\" or that Tirion brings you back to life? I assume this uses phasing? It sounds pretty awesome either way.
#30
@Li3n
@Li3n
So you don't even get to kill emo-bitch yourself?!
But i don't get why the player getting enough power to defeat the Lich King is not "realistic"... i mean Arthas started out as a normal human and Ner'zhul as an orc... the reason why Blizz does is probably because they can't have so many god like character running around in the fluff...
But i don't get why the player getting enough power to defeat the Lich King is not "realistic"... i mean Arthas started out as a normal human and Ner'zhul as an orc... the reason why Blizz does is probably because they can't have so many god like character running around in the fluff...
#31
Snuffleupagus
Snuffleupagus
I always assumed it is because they are "heroes" and we're more akin to soldiers. Either that or its Frostmourne + the legion crafted and blessed armor he wears.So you don't even get to kill emo-bitch yourself?!
But i don't get why the player getting enough power to defeat the Lich King is not "realistic"... i mean Arthas started out as a normal human and Ner'zhul as an orc... the reason why Blizz does is probably because they can't have so many god like character running around in the fluff...
#32
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
I frankly don't even get why Arthas is considered all THAT powerful to begin with. Yes, the Lich King is demi-god-like, but that is specifically because of his abilities to command entire armies, not because he himself has a billion hit points. A 40 on 1 fight with Arthas doesn't feel right to me. (I can't quite see from the youtube video who you're fighting, but it doesn't look like there are legions of Scourge). I get why it can't be this way for balance purposes, but a "real" Lich King fight should involve him killing individual members of the party and then instantly raising them against you. So the "you delivered the greatest fighting force!" line would come after the entire army has been converted, and then shattering the sword returns everyone to normal.
Is the music in the video the music from the actual fight, or did they just sub in the menu music? It seemed weirdly perfectly timed, in a way that didn't actually make sense since Blizzard can't know exactly how fast you will kill him (unless you're on some kind of timer?)
Is the music in the video the music from the actual fight, or did they just sub in the menu music? It seemed weirdly perfectly timed, in a way that didn't actually make sense since Blizzard can't know exactly how fast you will kill him (unless you're on some kind of timer?)
#33
@Li3n
@Li3n
Seeing how his last attack is triggered by getting him to under 10% life the music might also be programmed in some way like that.
#34
R
Raemon777
R
Raemon777
The music the is the "main menu music," exactly what you get if you listen to it straight through. I actually was humming along without missing a beat. You could have programmed the music to automatically update in a similar fashion (repeats one section till you hit the 10% life and then fade to another another section) but I don't think they did that. So the only way it would have worked out is if they somehow planned the raid so that getting him to 10% life REQUIRES you to work in a particular timeframe (not necessarily telling you what that timeframe is, you just end up wiping if you don't kill him fast enough somehow).
#35
Telephius
Telephius
I frankly don't even get why Arthas is considered all THAT powerful to begin with. Yes, the Lich King is demi-god-like, but that is specifically because of his abilities to command entire armies, not because he himself has a billion hit points. A 40 on 1 fight with Arthas doesn't feel right to me. (I can't quite see from the youtube video who you're fighting, but it doesn't look like there are legions of Scourge). I get why it can't be this way for balance purposes, but a "real" Lich King fight should involve him killing individual members of the party and then instantly raising them against you. So the "you delivered the greatest fighting force!" line would come after the entire army has been converted, and then shattering the sword returns everyone to normal.
Is the music in the video the music from the actual fight, or did they just sub in the menu music? It seemed weirdly perfectly timed, in a way that didn't actually make sense since Blizzard can't know exactly how fast you will kill him (unless you're on some kind of timer?)
Phase 1 he summons alot trash ghouls and occasionally a giant Vargul minion that requires to an extent using the LKs power against him. In phase 1 the LK also will infect a random raid member with a disease that explodes more a massive amount of damage(and jumps) when it ends however if you cleanse it it hops to a nearby target(including the LKs minions.) You basically cleanse the disease until it hops onto his minins and eventually kills the vargul.
Once you get him to a certain health he runs to the center of the platform and starts radiating cold that will kills in 2-3 pulses. Your raid has to run to the edge to avoid the cold but the LK still can hassles the raid while channeling by creating ghostly apparitions of random party members that hit like a truck. On top of this he sends frosty orbs to the edge of the platform that if within a certain range of a raid member explode creating a knockback effect. So your dps has to kill the apparitions(oh they cone silence as well) fast enough so too many are not up at once and the range dps have to make sure none of the orbs reach close to the edge or your raid are going to become involuntary BASE jumpers.
After the LK gets bored with your shenanigans on his ledge he decides its time to take the edge off this fight and slams his sword into the ground causing a force that cracks and shatters the iccy edge of the platform to fall off and any raid memebers on the edge.
Now in the next phase things start getting hairy. He will infest random people and if they are not at 90% of their health when a tick of this dot occurs the dot gets stronger and much harder to get the person to 90% health. That is not the worst attack he does though. He will target a random raid member and defile the ground they stand on. This black cloud will feed off the damage it causes growing in size each time. So if you have someone standing in it then it grows making more people stand in it making it grow faster. I have been in attempters were defile has covered the whole platform and wiped the raid. Meanwhile he will also summon a Valk'yr(looks like an angel kind of) that will target a part memeber and pick them up. Once it does this it will fly towards the closest ledge and drop them off. So have to make sure when a Val'Kyr is summoned that noone is close to an edge and that you kill it really fast because there is no rezzing a person who falls of the edge. Also defile and Summon Valk'yr(I am probably spelling it wrong) are on slightly different cooldown lengths so somteims they will happen 5 seconds apart and sometimes 1 second apart and considerinh the the raid is clumped alot of the time to avoid the edge having people get a defile and a valk at the same time can be bad news.
After he gets bored with this he go back to trying to kill the raid by radiating cold forcing people to the edge. His cold radiation causes the ice to reform on the sides of the platform. This happens the same as the first time the raid does it.
Once we decided to slam the ground again and the raid comes back in he tries a new tactic. Every so often he will raise his sword into the air and summon a bunch of ghosts. They orbit in the air for a few seconds before targeting different raid memebers and flying towards them, Once they reach said rand memeber they explode(Area of effect) for about 10-13k damage/ half a non tanks health. So you can't stand next to each other or else people die if the ghosts are not shot down by the range dps fast enough. During this phase he will also use his sword to steal someones soul(their body I believe remains on the platform dead IIRC) and the player is transported into Frostmourne. There the player must help King Terenas's sould fight of the essence of the blade(I think that is what it is) to weaken the sword. The essence will channel a spell that must be intereted or else from what I recall the LK gets to ht things much harder.
You do this until you get the LK down to 10% and he does his victory spiel.
Once you get him to a certain health he runs to the center of the platform and starts radiating cold that will kills in 2-3 pulses. Your raid has to run to the edge to avoid the cold but the LK still can hassles the raid while channeling by creating ghostly apparitions of random party members that hit like a truck. On top of this he sends frosty orbs to the edge of the platform that if within a certain range of a raid member explode creating a knockback effect. So your dps has to kill the apparitions(oh they cone silence as well) fast enough so too many are not up at once and the range dps have to make sure none of the orbs reach close to the edge or your raid are going to become involuntary BASE jumpers.
After the LK gets bored with your shenanigans on his ledge he decides its time to take the edge off this fight and slams his sword into the ground causing a force that cracks and shatters the iccy edge of the platform to fall off and any raid memebers on the edge.
Now in the next phase things start getting hairy. He will infest random people and if they are not at 90% of their health when a tick of this dot occurs the dot gets stronger and much harder to get the person to 90% health. That is not the worst attack he does though. He will target a random raid member and defile the ground they stand on. This black cloud will feed off the damage it causes growing in size each time. So if you have someone standing in it then it grows making more people stand in it making it grow faster. I have been in attempters were defile has covered the whole platform and wiped the raid. Meanwhile he will also summon a Valk'yr(looks like an angel kind of) that will target a part memeber and pick them up. Once it does this it will fly towards the closest ledge and drop them off. So have to make sure when a Val'Kyr is summoned that noone is close to an edge and that you kill it really fast because there is no rezzing a person who falls of the edge. Also defile and Summon Valk'yr(I am probably spelling it wrong) are on slightly different cooldown lengths so somteims they will happen 5 seconds apart and sometimes 1 second apart and considerinh the the raid is clumped alot of the time to avoid the edge having people get a defile and a valk at the same time can be bad news.
After he gets bored with this he go back to trying to kill the raid by radiating cold forcing people to the edge. His cold radiation causes the ice to reform on the sides of the platform. This happens the same as the first time the raid does it.
Once we decided to slam the ground again and the raid comes back in he tries a new tactic. Every so often he will raise his sword into the air and summon a bunch of ghosts. They orbit in the air for a few seconds before targeting different raid memebers and flying towards them, Once they reach said rand memeber they explode(Area of effect) for about 10-13k damage/ half a non tanks health. So you can't stand next to each other or else people die if the ghosts are not shot down by the range dps fast enough. During this phase he will also use his sword to steal someones soul(their body I believe remains on the platform dead IIRC) and the player is transported into Frostmourne. There the player must help King Terenas's sould fight of the essence of the blade(I think that is what it is) to weaken the sword. The essence will channel a spell that must be intereted or else from what I recall the LK gets to ht things much harder.
You do this until you get the LK down to 10% and he does his victory spiel.
Also the LK may not in reality have more 'health' then a dragon. HP and attack damage can be considered a more abstract thing than straigt numbers. A old wizard could have more HP then a townsguard, who does his exercise all the time and eats his veggies , simply because it could take alot more effort to tire the experience wizard to the point you can land a deathblow then some rookie guard. Health is partially contributed by actual constitution because two people of the same experience and training may take a hit better because they are in more health condition. However where damage is a scale of how well one can hit(it a noob sword swing does 10 damage and a pro sword swing does 100 becaise of the training behind it), hit points can be a measure of how long one can endure in a battle. Ie how healthy your body is, how well the person can take a blow that lands, etc. It can also represent a ratio. A 10 damage hit against someone who has 20 hp may mean that 10 damage hit could have been a nasty gash across the gut. A 10 damage hit against a 10000 hp target could mean a paper cut on the back of the shoulder. So two lowbies with 20hp may only do feeble untrained hits but because they are just as experienced at defending and lasting a fight their feeble blows can still end up hurting eachother alot where as a lowbie hitting a highbie(ie more experience in adventuring) may only cause minor wounds because the highbies experience tells him how to roll with the punches.
In terms of WoW since the advancment is also item gear wise and the story advances with gear upgrades the only reason his health changes to is to keep in line that he is going to still be challending relative to our raid. Any of the older bosses in the game would technically be dead/defeated and therefore would not be close to canonical for me to go to AQ with my HM 10man ICC gear and own them since technically that raid has been dealth with.
In terms of WoW since the advancment is also item gear wise and the story advances with gear upgrades the only reason his health changes to is to keep in line that he is going to still be challending relative to our raid. Any of the older bosses in the game would technically be dead/defeated and therefore would not be close to canonical for me to go to AQ with my HM 10man ICC gear and own them since technically that raid has been dealth with.
#36
@Li3n
@Li3n
A "what HP really is" post?! Does anyone here actually not know yet?!