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Once in awhile Tycho and Gabe will hold their opinions forth in public, and I love it when they do.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/8/10/

This discussion is particularly interesting:

Tycho said:

I get fascinated by sparkling things sometimes, things I want to incorporate into my nest, and it cinches a noose around my mind which locks me into a kind of inexorable \"information accrual\" mode. Scientology is a perennial in this regard, to the extent that I actively avoid information about it because it's too fascinating and I don't want to join the \"church\" in a moment of weakness. I recently had the misfortune of being exposed to some propaganda from the \"seduction community,\" and I've spent the weekend on a kind of data bender that has left me psychologically gutted. I've been trying to navigate away from this page for about an hour now, and I can't do it. That these people are base manipulators should be apparent to any literate person; they've made a cage of language that I can't escape from.

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Gabe said:

I don't know, Love Systems doesn't seem so bad to me. It's really hard to talk to girls, and this is just helping guys with their confidence. Women are terrifying and strange, I don't see anything wrong with getting some advice.

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Tycho said:

I'm fairly certain the purpose of this course is to make you a better predator of women. Check out their offers of \"in-field training,\" as though you were going to hunt antelopes from a jeep in the Goddamned Savannah.

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Gabe said:

I think you're being overly dramatic. Girls have been using their \"feminine wiles\" to manipulate men since the beginning of time. Do you really think the mind games girls play on guys are any better or worse than this stuff. The only difference is that this sort of thing comes naturally to women. Guys are in a tight spot because in very real terms, we have nothing they want. They on the other hand, have vaginas. They can make us do pretty much what ever they want. I don't see anything wrong with guys trying to learn some tricks of their own.

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Tycho said:

This, from the dude who thinks it's okay to have sex with unconscious women. That must be considered the \"ultimate\" technique, something akin to true mastery.

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Gabe said:

Hold on just a second asshole. You are taking that comment way out of context!

We were having a conversation about Ambien Sex. You had told me that the drug has been known to put people into a sort of horny trance. Eventually some questions about the morality of such a situation were brought up. What I said was that if your wife takes Ambien and then jumps you in the middle of the night wanting to get all freaky, I would not call that \"rape\". That's not the same as saying that going around having sex with unconscious girls is okay. We were discussing a hypothetical and I gave my opinion.

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Tycho said:

I'm not sure the people who espouse these \"love systems\" or \"dating sciences\" want much to do with women outside of their role as the variable in some bizarre equation they're endlessly iterating. And if you aren't interested in women, or at any rate you aren't interested in actual women, or if you are only interested in a subset of a woman's physicality, there's an app for that.

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Gabe said:

Listen, I would never personally take a class like this. I think it's silly and expensive. All I am saying is that I can relate to guys who are scared to talk to girls and I can understand how desperate they might be for help. Obviously I don't approve of hunting women from the back of a jeep and if that's the intent of this shit then yeah it's fucked up. If it gives guys genuine tips for getting past their anxiety around a girl then I think it's fine.

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On the one hand, yeah, most guys could use classes in how to approach and charm women (who, by and large, enjoy being charmed just short of being manipulated).

On the other hand, once you roll 20's for charisma, are you really giving her something she wants, or manipulating her?

At what point does this information and skill remove the girl's ability to choose? Is it any different than advertising a product she didn't want, and doesn't need, but after the commercial she wants?

Also, what, if anything, is the difference between being manipulated and feeling manipulated? Does it matter?

Is Gabe's point about Women being 'naturally manipulative" valid (ie, they spend more time thinking about relationships and understanding/adjusting social situations than men, and are thus 'naturally' better at it, without even thinking they are using that to their advantage)? Typical chick flick vs action movie, dolls vs trucks, etc.

-Adam

Gabe said:

I think you're being overly dramatic. Girls have been using their "feminine wiles" to manipulate men since the beginning of time. Do you really think the mind games girls play on guys are any better or worse than this stuff. The only difference is that this sort of thing comes naturally to women. Guys are in a tight spot because in very real terms, we have nothing they want. They on the other hand, have vaginas. They can make us do pretty much what ever they want. I don't see anything wrong with guys trying to learn some tricks of their own.

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This is the quote that is really telling to me. It's not a conscious, aggressive misogyny, but it's very ignorant and fits right in with the sort of casual sexism that is incredibly pervasive in the social consciousness. Saying that manipulation comes naturally to women, or that "we have nothing they want," is not just crass, it's completely inaccurate and represents a heavy bit of cognitive dissonance. Why would women manipulate and prey on men if we have nothing they want?

I do agree with the very basic idea that Gabe is getting at, which is that if guys have a lot of anxiety around women, there's nothing wrong with teaching them to overcome that anxiety. However, he's missing the point that these pick-up groups and such don't teach how to overcome anxiety at all, they just teach how to manipulate and prey on women.

steinman said:

On the one hand, yeah, most guys could use classes in how to approach and charm women (who, by and large, enjoy being charmed just short of being manipulated).

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steinman said:

On the other hand, once you roll 20's for charisma, are you really giving her something she wants, or manipulating her?

At what point does this information and skill remove the girl's ability to choose? Is it any different than advertising a product she didn't want, and doesn't need, but after the commercial she wants?

Also, what, if anything, is the difference between being manipulated and feeling manipulated? Does it matter?

-Adam

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These pick-up classes are not interested in giving the women anything they want. They are entirely about you, the man, getting what you want. The women don't enter into the equation other than as objects of desire. The metaphor of hunting them from the back of a jeep is pretty apt; these men don't care about the women they are targeting, except as the means of exercising sexual dominance.

Kissinger said:

They are entirely about you, the man, getting what you want.

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So you are saying that these techniques remove a woman's ability to choose what she wants? That's what I'm wondering - are the techniques bad because they remove free will (ie, manipulating the meat of the brain into doing the master's bidding) or are they bad for some other reason?

-Adam

Damn, I'm too late for a 'inb4 Charsinger'.

Man Tycho is a douche. Really just a huge douche. Women with that reaction to Ambian are anything but "passed out." When my GF had that reaction she was an aggressive and full participant. Course the next day when she woke up with no pants and no memory at all of what happened I felt skeazy as all hell but there really is no way of telling weather the woman is really into you or just having a side effect that almost nobody knows about.

As for the idea of pick up classes being big game hunters who hunt down the unsuspecting women who are just minding their own business... Really? Fucking Really?

Are women really such mailable pieces of clay that a few choice words from the right guy will make them into his wanton playthings? Or are they intelligent people who make their own choices about who they sleep with for whatever reasons they want?

You know what I think is interesting? The same types of pathetic losers who take "classes" like these are the same types of guys who have no self esteem and blow innocent women away while they are at the gym.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbKXqgGGyoo&feature=player_embedded:36qrd2cj][/youtube:36qrd2cj]

This guy constantly read bullshit like this to "pick up younger chicks". He attended seminars on the subject!

So to say that this sort of thing is there only to boost confidence? I don't buy it.

stienman said:

So you are saying that these techniques remove a woman's ability to choose what she wants? That's what I'm wondering - are the techniques bad because they remove free will (ie, manipulating the meat of the brain into doing the master's bidding) or are they bad for some other reason?

-Adam

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Are you asking if these guys are literally brainwashing women? They're not literally removing free will, but they are completely manipulating the women they're going after.

Dubyamn said:

Are women really such mailable pieces of clay that a few choice words from the right guy will make them into his wanton playthings?

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This is pretty much exactly the idea the people who participate in the "pick-up" culture promote and believe.

And Ed, thanks for bring up the George Sodini story. I was thinking about it, but wanted to see where the discussion would go before I brought it up.

These types of things just piss me off. All these "classes" or seminars are all snake oil salesmen who prey on sad pathetic men with no self esteem the same way that weight loss and diet products prey of overweight women with low self esteem.

You know what attracts both men AND women? Confidence! That and a good physical appearance - even if it's just good grooming on an average face/body. These types of "programs" do not help self confidence, but instead tears it down when it doesn't work. Sodini fell into this trap when he was trying to attract 20-25 year old women at the age of 48. It's just not going to happen unless you have a lot of money and find the superficial bimbos this invariably attracts.

And it wasn't Tycho sticking up for this site, I gather it's more Gabe.

Kissinger said:

stienman said:

So you are saying that these techniques remove a woman's ability to choose what she wants? That's what I'm wondering - are the techniques bad because they remove free will (ie, manipulating the meat of the brain into doing the master's bidding) or are they bad for some other reason?

-Adam

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Are you asking if these guys are literally brainwashing women? They're not literally removing free will, but they are completely manipulating the women they're going after.

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Ok, so you believe it's bad to learn and use manipulative techniques when talking to people.

Er... isn't that what a lot of human conversation is about anyway? When you have certain a discussions with someone aren't you trying to lead them down the logical path that,ideally, ends up at your desired conclusion so they understand what you are talking about?

What's the difference?

-Adam

I don't know guys....chicks can use what God gave them to be manipulative.

I've used my charms to talk prices down at stores and Flea Markets...nothing really major. The one who has been really bad for this and still is would be my sister. She can get anything from a guy and she has the amazing ability to disregard said guys feelings the whole time.

Hell, I can name at least five other girls that manipulate men, either knowingly or unknowingly.

So don't get all 'white knight' on me. Most chicks know how to pull the strings to get what they want...I see this as leveling the playing field.

Well.....

I'm generally rather good at being charming and witty and that ability came right after I absolutely lost all ability to care what anyone who isn't me thinks of me. Playing 3 instruments and being able to construct a poetically sound compliment help too :tongue:. I'll happily introduce myself to random people if I think they might be interesting. In that there's an amount of confidence in one's self that can make the opposite sex more attracted. Does it always work? Hell no! I've thrown out my charming best and been laughed at by girls who want an over-muscled idiot or a frat boy before. What keeps me from generally breaking down in the face of those rejections is that I can simply view it as a learning exercise.

Does that make me manipulative? Yes, to a point. However I tend to at times view social interaction as a grand orchestra of subtle manipulation, concious or unconcious as the act may be.

Kissinger said:

Dubyamn said:

Are women really such mailable pieces of clay that a few choice words from the right guy will make them into his wanton playthings?

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This is pretty much exactly the idea the people who participate in the "pick-up" culture promote and believe.

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Indeed however this flies in the face of everything that I have ever experienced with any woman in my entire life.

I may be an outlier who has never entered onto the right combination of body language/ words to get a woman to do what I want but I have never convinced any woman in my life to do something that they just plain didn't want to do without heavy negotiation and compromise.

Dubyamn said:

Kissinger said:

Dubyamn said:

Are women really such mailable pieces of clay that a few choice words from the right guy will make them into his wanton playthings?

Click to expand...

This is pretty much exactly the idea the people who participate in the "pick-up" culture promote and believe.

Click to expand...

Indeed however this flies in the face of everything that I have ever experienced with any woman in my entire life.

I may be an outlier who has never entered onto the right combination of body language/ words to get a woman to do what I want but I have never convinced any woman in my life to do something that they just plain didn't want to do without heavy negotiation and compromise.

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>_> Learn to play the violin.

stienman said:

Ok, so you believe it's bad to learn and use manipulative techniques when talking to people.

Er... isn't that what a lot of human conversation is about anyway? When you have certain a discussions with someone aren't you trying to lead them down the logical path that,ideally, ends up at your desired conclusion so they understand what you are talking about?

What's the difference?

-Adam

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The men who take these classes or read these guidebooks or whatever aren't trying to reach an understanding. They don't see women as people with whom they can have a dialogue and reach an understanding. They don't respect the women they target or see them as whole human beings. They just want sex. That's the difference.

All of this promotes a culture of misogyny. The people who write these books or run these seminars are exploiting these pathetic men with extreme self-esteem issues who just need some help, and they're doing that by promoting the idea that sleeping with as many women as possible is the ultimate validation of worth and that doing whatever you can to achieve that goal is worth it, even if it means lying, tricking, and manipulating women. They don't tell men to respect women, or get to know them, or have relationships. It's damaging to everyone.

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

EDIT: GOD DAMN IT, i'm just gonna post this. You fuckers keep ninjaing me.

Dubyamn said:

Indeed however this flies in the face of everything that I have ever experienced with any woman in my entire life.

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It's almost as if the people who write these pick-up guides and run these seminars are just spinning bullshit to exploit desperate, depressed men out of their money.

Kissinger said:

It's almost as if the people who write these pick-up guides and run these seminars are just spinning bullshit to exploit desperate, depressed men out of their money.

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Which is why I think the claims of hunting women from the back of a jeep like they are wildebeests on the Serengeti who are just minding their own business and completely unaware of the hunters is an absolutely ignorant statement to make. You pick up women who want to be picked up with pick up lines and you get shot down by the ones who don't.

Dubyamn said:

Which is why I think the claims of hunting women from the back of a jeep like they are wildebeests on the Serengeti who are just minding their own business and completely unaware of the hunters is an absolutely ignorant statement to make. You pick up women who want to be picked up with pick up lines and you get shot down by the ones who don't.

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I think you misunderstand. The "hunting women from the back of a jeep" analogy was meant to convey how the men who take these classes behave and think. It's meant to express their attitudes toward women, not the reality of whether this methodology works or not. Although if you're saying that no one ever successfully manipulates someone else into sleeping with them when that person otherwise wouldn't have, then I don't know what to tell you.

-- Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:49 am --

Dorko said:

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

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I don't even know where to begin with this post.

Kissinger said:

I think you misunderstand. The "hunting women from the back of a jeep" analogy was meant to convey how the men who take these classes behave and think. It's meant to express their attitudes toward women, not the reality of whether this methodology works or not.

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It is entirely possible that we were arguing 2 separate points. I guess I read Tycho's posts a little differently

Although if you're saying that no one ever successfully manipulates someone else into sleeping with them when that person otherwise wouldn't have, then I don't know what to tell you.

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I'm definitely not saying that in no case has anybody fully manipulated a woman into having sex with him. I'm saying they you're not going to learn how to do that from some 50 minute seminar.

Dubyamn said:

Although if you're saying that no one ever successfully manipulates someone else into sleeping with them when that person otherwise wouldn't have, then I don't know what to tell you.

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I'm definitely not saying that in no case has anybody fully manipulated a woman into having sex with him. I'm saying they you're not going to learn how to do that from some 50 minute seminar.

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... Which doesn't exactly mitigate the disturbingness of the goal, yes?

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm sure there are a lot of guys (maybe even most of the guys who buy these books and go to these seminars) who use or attempt to use these systems to get over their anxiety with women and who want to actually connect with another person instead of using them as an object to promote their fucked up idea of sexuality, power, and dominance, but it seems to me like these things promote seeking one night stands and "gaming" women as the ultimate goal and engender pretty frightening attitudes toward women.

Use a jeep?! Now why didn't i think of that before...

@Li3n said:

Use a jeep?! Now why didn't i think of that before...

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That's why I bought mine! Tagged me a redhead at 500 paces.

I'm not interested in defending those that teach these classes, nor those that use them.

What I'm interested in learning is why people here think it's 'wrong', 'bad', or 'disturbing'.

A guy decides "I want to have sex with some girl." He goes to a bar, talks to several women over the course of an hour or three, and eventually leaves with one that is willing to have sex with him.

Where did the bad, wrong, or disturbing thing occur? The women he eventually left with didn't necessarily come to have sex with some random guy - she may just have been out with friends. She may or may not be inebriated. The several women he talked to the turned him down first may have initially come to the bar with the intention of having sex, but were not interested in his advances, though he may have used the same techniques for each woman.

This guy had a goal, he used his knowledge and practiced skills to accomplish his goal. He did not drug the woman that eventually went with him.

Where is the problem? Is it with his goal of having sex with a random stranger? Is it with the tools/skills/techniques he used to get close enough to someone quickly enough that they were willing to meet his goal? Is it that he succeeded? Is it that he didn't care about which girl he took, and wasn't interested in more than a one-night stand?

What is disturbing, wrong, or bad about this, and why should it make a difference if he has studied and honed his skills, whether alone by observation and practice, or with psychology books, or seduction books, or through classes/conventions/etc?

Where is the problem?

-Adam

See here:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06pinaKl8o:1a6eeahe][/youtube:1a6eeahe]

Kissinger said:

Dorko said:

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

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I don't even know where to begin with this post.

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Let's start with that it was supposed to be on your side, and then show me where I am incorrect about the male sex drive versus the female sex drive.

Dorko said:

Kissinger said:

Dorko said:

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

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I don't even know where to begin with this post.

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Let's start with that it was supposed to be on your side, and then show me where I am incorrect about the male sex drive versus the female sex drive.

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Here, let me chime in, it's pretty offensive to me, as a man, that you're basically calling men animals with no ability to control their sexual urges.

Dorko said:

Kissinger said:

Dorko said:

The reason, in general, women have these "feminine wiles" and have most of the power in a relationship is because most guys (including myself) are horny almost all the damn time! Most porn is geared towards us, strip clubs for us outnumber strip clubs for them, brothels in Nevada don't have male sex workers (or at least not many), and most girls discussing cute guys they see out and about do not immediately go to sex. That's why they have power. Not because it's some innate thing. We simply have an innate kryptonite. When they manipulate, which some do, it's because they are playing on that. When these pick-up artists manipulate, it's trading by pretending to be a good guy, the kind of guy they want to be with. One is using an innate weakness. The other is lying.

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I don't even know where to begin with this post.

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Let's start with that it was supposed to be on your side, and then show me where I am incorrect about the male sex drive versus the female sex drive.

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The female sex drive isn't necessarily less than the male sex drive, it's just a bit more...refined. God knows my wife can't seem to get enough!

I think what is wrong with the classes specifically is that they're most likely a scam aimed at men with confadence issues or d-bags who actually want to up their game.

I don't disaprove of the practice in general, depending on what exactly they're promoting. Creating a kind of larger than life persona, being a "balla" or whatever they seem to be teaching is only going to attract other people interested in that lifestyle. I'm not going to bag a smart, funny, attractive and all around ideal woman by doing what these guys tell me to do. I might get some bar skanks though, whom if they weren't leaving with me would leave with someone else.

To outright lie though, is wrong. If I tell a girl only what she wants to hear in order to sleep with her, well that would just make me a bigger ass than I can think of right now.

Just so you guys know, Gabe said today that he was more playing devils advocate.

I will say this, it's, in general much easier for girls to get stuff out of guys, go work in a restaurant and watch the girls rake in the cash from dudes at their tables with just a little flirting.

Espy said:

Just so you guys know, Gabe said today that he was more playing devils advocate.

I will say this, it's, in general much easier for girls to get stuff out of guys, go work in a restaurant and watch the girls rake in the cash from dudes at their tables with just a little flirting.

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There are some things that I don't feel can be used as a legitimate "Devil's Advocate" defense. Lame excuse from someone taking a lot of heat?

No, he actually said that he was shocked at how much email he got from guys who said THANKS!

I'm not gonna butcher it, here you go:

Wow, just fucking wow.


I decided to play devil's advocate yesterday with Tycho just because that's something I enjoy doing. I think in reality I fall somewhere in the middle of this argument but that's not as much fun. What I didn't expect was to get flooded with mail from guys thanking me for sticking up for this system because they use it. I also got my share of mail from angry girls but honestly I expected that. I made some pretty ridiculous exaggerations for the sake of a silly argument. Just like any time we exaggerate for the sake of a joke, we end up offending people who don't see the humor in it. We've been doing this for ten years and so the angry mails were no surprise. It was the mails from guys thanking me that really threw me for a loop.

Like I said, I was trying to be ridiculous but in reality I guess I sort of hit on something. As someone who was diagnosed with, and currently takes medication for chronic anxiety I suppose I should have expected it. You can go back through the archive here and find my posts about anxiety. It was something I lived with for as long as I could remember and it was horrible. What I didn't really understand until I started taking medicine was that the constant worrying and anxiety had also lead to depression. Once I was on Lexapro I started to feel...well good and I finally had a frame of reference. When you're always depressed and worried you don't understand that there is any other way to feel. It probably sounds crazy to people who've never had to deal with it but it's true.

One of the effects of my anxiety was that I couldn't talk to girls. My wife Kara was the the first girl I ever went on a date with and the fact is I didn't even ask her out myself. My friends at the time knew that I liked her but also knew that I would never be able to ask her on a date. I was in my early twenties and I had never really talked to a girl for longer than a couple of minutes. My friends knew this and so like some kind of crappy romantic comedy they cooked up a plan to get us together. They told me that she wanted to meet me at a movie theatre and they told Kara that I wanted to meet her there. We ended up together watching Vegas Vacation and when she reached over to hold my hand I was literally fucking terrified.

What I'm realizing is that sort of anxiety is almost like a kind of class feature for nerds. I got tons of mail from guys who aren't using these systems to abuse girls or score one night stands. They are using them for the reasons that I listed jokingly. They really are trying to learn to be more confident and get past their anxiety with girls. They feel like all the douche bags out there give the system a bad name and more then one recommended a book called the Game by Neil Strauss. Where as I had pretty much given up on the idea of ever meeting a girl these guys are going out and trying to get help. I'm not sure how I can blame them for that.

In my exchange with tycho I was trying to do a bit, I was playing a part and I thought I was making a joke. I guess I was being a little more honest then I really understood. Now obviously I don't think women are evil witches ensorcelling men with their magic vaginas. I'm a 31 year old married guy with a kid and a much clearer view of the world thanks to the miracles of modern chemistry. What I can say to all the guys mailing me about this system is that the girls you're so terrified to talk to, are just as scared of you. I've got guys mailing me saying they don't know how long they should wait before calling a girl or if it's okay to ask for their phone number. They are worried about not understanding the rules of some imaginary game. My advice for what it's worth, is that the girls you really want aren't playing a game, and they won't expect you to play one either.

-Gabe out

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Also, point of order - young dude bartenders or waiters get hella tips from little old ladies. My roommate raked it in from professors and families alike bartending.

I feel ya, Espy. I think that there's a lot of guys out there who related, but the fact remains that the OP is seriously fucked up.

I've heard women say too many times that they did not like a guy because he had no game. I then ask why she would be interested in a guy that sleeps around a lot, and manipulates people. Of course there is never an answer to the question.

A good friend of mine in college would bring home on the order of 40 girls a semester. Out of those only one or two ended up feeling manipulated. Women like the casual sex too, some also see sex as love even when it is given away with in 3 hours of meeting a guy.

Charlie Dont Surf said:

Also, point of order - young dude bartenders or waiters get hella tips from little old ladies. My roommate raked it in from professors and families alike bartending.

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No doubt.
I worked in restaurants doing both waiting and bartending and it's not all that odd for guys to make good cash from girls or women either. My point was that it's just easier for girls to get guys with a little flirting, at least in my experience.
Why? Well, it just seems to me that if a girl even smiles at a guy, far to often he tends to take it as a sign of romantic interest or flirting on some level.

Edrondol said:

I feel ya, Espy. I think that there's a lot of guys out there who related, but the fact remains that the OP is seriously smurfed up.

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Granted, I'm seriously smurfed up, but did you mean "Original post" or "Original poster", and if the former, Tycho and Gabe's tête-à-tête or my comments, or... ?

This whole thread is ripe for miscommunication, since we're talking about a lot of different possibly incendiary topics - the specific programs mentioned, any programs meant to give men more confidence in approaching women, intentions of people following such programs, whether women have better social skills than men, gender stereotypes, etc...

-Adam

Edrondol said:

Espy said:

Just so you guys know, Gabe said today that he was more playing devils advocate.

I will say this, it's, in general much easier for girls to get stuff out of guys, go work in a restaurant and watch the girls rake in the cash from dudes at their tables with just a little flirting.

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There are some things that I don't feel can be used as a legitimate "Devil's Advocate" defense. Lame excuse from someone taking a lot of heat?

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Could be but Penny-Arcade insults demographics on a regualr basis so I think Gabe and Tycho are both used to taking heat. I think they don't mind taking heat for things they mean rather then things they do not mean.

sixpackshaker said:

I've heard women say too many times that they did not like a guy because he had no game. I then ask why she would be interested in a guy that sleeps around a lot, and manipulates people. Of course there is never an answer to the question.

A good friend of mine in college would bring home on the order of 40 girls a semester. Out of those only one or two ended up feeling manipulated. Women like the casual sex too, some also see sex as love even when it is given away with in 3 hours of meeting a guy.

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Having 'game' doesn't necessarily mean sleeping around a lot and manipulating people. It can be as simple as being able to tell a good joke or as complex as making someone feel like they're the only person in the universe. It's about shutting up and letting someone else talk for a change. It's about relaxing and just enjoying yourself instead of attaching your feelings of success to whether or not you get into her pants.

I have a coworker who, at 40, twice-divorced, is now dating a very attractive divorcee around his age. Coupled with the fact his previous two wives were smokin' hotties and he's just north of 5'5 means he obviously has game...And it shows with women AND men.

Bringing home 40 girls a semester (Which seems....difficult to believe) doesn't prove any sort of game other than alcohol being involved.

stienman said:

Edrondol said:

I feel ya, Espy. I think that there's a lot of guys out there who related, but the fact remains that the OP is seriously smurfed up.

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Granted, I'm seriously smurfed up, but did you mean "Original post" or "Original poster", and if the former, Tycho and Gabe's tête-à-tête or my comments, or... ?

This whole thread is ripe for miscommunication, since we're talking about a lot of different possibly incendiary topics - the specific programs mentioned, any programs meant to give men more confidence in approaching women, intentions of people following such programs, whether women have better social skills than men, gender stereotypes, etc...

-Adam

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The Gabe/Tycho argument. Not you. I seldom insult someone personally.

Edrondol said:

Not you. I seldom insult someone personally.

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Oh, but when he does! What a sight to behold!

Edrondol said:

stienman said:

Edrondol said:

I feel ya, Espy. I think that there's a lot of guys out there who related, but the fact remains that the OP is seriously smurfed up.

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Granted, I'm seriously smurfed up, but did you mean "Original post" or "Original poster", and if the former, Tycho and Gabe's tête-à-tête or my comments, or... ?

This whole thread is ripe for miscommunication, since we're talking about a lot of different possibly incendiary topics - the specific programs mentioned, any programs meant to give men more confidence in approaching women, intentions of people following such programs, whether women have better social skills than men, gender stereotypes, etc...

-Adam

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The Gabe/Tycho argument. Not you. I seldom insult someone personally, assface

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-- Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:21 pm --

Edrondol said:

stienman said:

Edrondol said:

I feel ya, Espy. I think that there's a lot of guys out there who related, but the fact remains that the OP is seriously smurfed up.

Click to expand...

Granted, I'm seriously smurfed up, but did you mean "Original post" or "Original poster", and if the former, Tycho and Gabe's tête-à-tête or my comments, or... ?

This whole thread is ripe for miscommunication, since we're talking about a lot of different possibly incendiary topics - the specific programs mentioned, any programs meant to give men more confidence in approaching women, intentions of people following such programs, whether women have better social skills than men, gender stereotypes, etc...

-Adam

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The Gabe/Tycho argument. Not you. I seldom insult someone personally, assface

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So.

This thread, huh.

How 'bout that.

Adammon said:

Bringing home 40 girls a semester (Which seems....difficult to believe) doesn't prove any sort of game other than alcohol being involved.

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I was his room mate and best friend, I saw the parade.

He was short, fat, not handsome, and quite charming. The epitome of a guy having game. He was very charismatic. He could have anyone laughing in minutes. It also did not hurt that he was hung like a horse and girls talk.

He was also a recovering junkie when I met him. Junkies are very good at manipulating people.

His ex-lovers would introduce their friends to him. We would also go hit the clubs early, and by 9:00 he would leave with a girl. Then come back by 11:00 to get the second of the evening. Drunk girls were out, they are not good in the hay.

When I was a middle of the road teen, I read a pick-up guide online that was pretty comprehensive. It gave me a self-esteem boost and tools with which to talk to women.

I can't tell you how much more comfortable I became with women after reading how to communicate body language wise with women. Despite what others may use pick up theories for, they are very useful in learning how to flirt, charm, and become friends with women(or avoid friendzone with women). It's not cheating or manipulative, it's learning how to have a conversation with a woman with the interest in romantic, or physical relations with said woman.

Salesmen do the same thing, and I don't get upset when I get what I want. Ultimately they won't go for something they don't want, so you aren't "tricking" them.

Huh. Lots of anger at depressed low-self-esteem guys in this here thread. Nice.
There sure are plenty of men who would take this sort of courses with just the intent posted by some here - manipiulate women into having sex, trying to "play a game", etc etc. And the ones offering these lessons are, obviously, ripping those - and others - off. Have you seen those prices?! Hell.
That doesn't mean that anyone who turns to this sort of things necessarily has this view, though. As Gave states in his follow-up...Plenty of guys with anxiety about.
And while I'm all in favour of equality and what have you, fact remains women ARE ten times the manipulators men are, in general, simply because men are more easily manipulated by their sexual blahblahblah. Ecce Homo, and all that - completely explainable through evolutionary psychology. This doesn't make women evil, men weak, or this a self-evident and universal thruth; it does make it a statistically sound fact in human relationships.
I've seen and known too many guys who really are assholes and don't even look that good, walk away with the nice girls (who, of course, feel bad afterwards, etc etc, enter the "bad boy"and "nice guy" syndromes, and so on). Having "game" is important. Knowing how to control your body language; learning a bit about hwo to interact and how to give the right impression - like Steinman said, this is pretty similar to all communication. Debating techniques, dating techniques, they basically come down to the same type of stuff, just differently implemented.
I know I have 0 control over my body language, I'm a nervous wreck, and it shows, and I have pretty low self-esteem, and it shows - and that this is (at least in part) why I can't convince the nice girls to go out with me. (not meant this post to be a baw, dammit. Oh well :-p).
Anyway, while these lessons are probably scum giving crappy "tips" to saps for a lot of money, I fail to see how it'd be wrong for a guy like me to try and find ways to better be able to communicate with women, or how to improve their chances. *shrug*

I'd love to see guys with low self-esteem work through their issues and get help, and have successful, healthy relationships. I just think any of these Pick-up Artist-esque classes won't help said guys.

If you need a confidence boost, get a commission paying door to door sales job. Seriously. Either you become confident and get over your anxiety or you don't make money.

I feel like if I can sell a product for 2-6 times the competition, I can sell anything in the world, including myself.

Charlie Dont Surf said:

I just think any of these Pick-up Artist-esque classes won't help said guys.

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Well, duh. Some people in this thread, who so like to rail against victimizing certain groups or prejudices, sure seemed to be pretty much saying that anyone who would even consider this sort of thing is a completely useless "extreme" example of people who shouldn't breed, etc etc. Saying men who might be interested in a way to get more confidence are de facto all just dehumanising assholes who aren't interested in another person's well-being 's just as much an ignorant remark as the opposite.
Thinking these things may actually work is silly, though. :-P

LittleSin said:

I don't know guys....chicks can use what God gave them to be manipulative.

I've used my charms to talk prices down at stores and Flea Markets...nothing really major. The one who has been really bad for this and still is would be my sister. She can get anything from a guy and she has the amazing ability to disregard said guys feelings the whole time.

*, I can name at least five other girls that manipulate men, either knowingly or unknowingly.

So don't get all 'white knight' on me. Most chicks know how to pull the strings to get what they want...I see this as leveling the playing field.

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I think that manipulating people to get what you want, with no regard to the person being manipulated, is wrong whether guys or girls do it. Just because women do it doesn't mean men should. Two wrongs don't make a right. Etc.

Now, obviously, there is manipulation and there is manipulation. There's nothing wrong with a little flirting, as someone who's worked as a waiter it's basically all about a little bit of flirting. But if you're, say, implying that you'll sleep with someone to get a discount (not that I'm saying you or your sister are doing this! I'm just pushing it to the point where it'd be wrong) or intentianally insulting someone to prey on their low self esteem so they'll sleep with you (the "neg" that Tycho's friend talks about in a post that's up on their site now) that's just fucked up.

Holy fucking shit. Women are not some alien fucking species. *Gasp* they're actual people too! ZOMG! News of the century! It's not that hard to talk to women, some guys just need a swift kick to the balls. It's the goddamn nice guy syndrome. 99% of the time your typical 'nice guy' is really the manipulative asshole.

Just because a stronger sex drive (or a different sex drive) in men than in women, or even another the recognition of that difference and leveraged use thereof to obtain something desired introduces some uncomfortable "imbalance" in the sexes, it doesn't mean it's a) not "true" (in a statistical sense) or b) that the person saying so is a misogynist. Men and women are different. It may not be a simply explainable difference, and there may be many deviations to the population means. Pointing out valid trends doesn't make you a sexist. Trying overly hard to enforce some artificial one-to-one correlation (intentionally avoiding the value-laden word "equality") might be, though.

Chazwozel said:

Holy fucking shit. Women are not some alien fucking species. *Gasp* they're actual people too! ZOMG! News of the century! It's not that hard to talk to women, some guys just need a swift kick to the balls. It's the goddamn nice guy syndrome. 99% of the time your typical 'nice guy' is really the manipulative asshole.

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This.

Also, isn't there a comic about that somewhere?

Kissinger said:

Gabe said:

I think you're being overly dramatic. Girls have been using their "feminine wiles" to manipulate men since the beginning of time. Do you really think the mind games girls play on guys are any better or worse than this stuff. The only difference is that this sort of thing comes naturally to women. Guys are in a tight spot because in very real terms, we have nothing they want. They on the other hand, have vaginas. They can make us do pretty much what ever they want. I don't see anything wrong with guys trying to learn some tricks of their own.

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This is the quote that is really telling to me. It's not a conscious, aggressive misogyny, but it's very ignorant and fits right in with the sort of casual sexism that is incredibly pervasive in the social consciousness. Saying that manipulation comes naturally to women, or that "we have nothing they want," is not just crass, it's completely inaccurate and represents a heavy bit of cognitive dissonance. Why would women manipulate and prey on men if we have nothing they want?

I do agree with the very basic idea that Gabe is getting at, which is that if guys have a lot of anxiety around women, there's nothing wrong with teaching them to overcome that anxiety. However, he's missing the point that these pick-up groups and such don't teach how to overcome anxiety at all, they just teach how to manipulate and prey on women.

steinman said:

On the one hand, yeah, most guys could use classes in how to approach and charm women (who, by and large, enjoy being charmed just short of being manipulated).

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steinman said:

On the other hand, once you roll 20's for charisma, are you really giving her something she wants, or manipulating her?

At what point does this information and skill remove the girl's ability to choose? Is it any different than advertising a product she didn't want, and doesn't need, but after the commercial she wants?

Also, what, if anything, is the difference between being manipulated and feeling manipulated? Does it matter?

-Adam

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These pick-up classes are not interested in giving the women anything they want. They are entirely about you, the man, getting what you want. The women don't enter into the equation other than as objects of desire. The metaphor of hunting them from the back of a jeep is pretty apt; these men don't care about the women they are targeting, except as the means of exercising sexual dominance.

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Holy hell. I 100% agree and condone what you're saying!

How many people have actually read through what the "seduction community" people actually have to say? 'Cause while I'm sure a lot of them are milking desperate guys for money and others are promoting douchebaggery, I did read some of the sample stuff by David DeAngelo, and it really did make sense in the context of what I've seen work and what girls have told me works. DeAngelo is the one who advocates the "cocky and funny" approach. It's not about using specific pickup lines to automatically have sex with someone, it's an overall attitude. He has some sample pickup lines but those are just a hook to grab their attention, and saying them without confidence would be useless.

Looking through the wikipedia entry, I see some things that lend themselves towards misogyny (negative compliments designed to weaken self esteem being the biggest offender) but overall they strike me as perfectly valid approaches that would work just as well on a woman you really care about as on a random bar skank. Pickup lines and scripted stories may be problematic because they won't necessarily work in all circumstances if you can't adapt them, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with them.

I'm 23, and have never had a girlfriend. For a while, lack of confidence was a huge problem. But it hasn't been for a while now. Instead, the problem is that my confidence comes in the form of being willing to do absurd things that may be funny, may be clever and witty, but aren't attractive. I was actually told just today by a girl in my class that, with some frequency, I have moments where I come off as sexy in my own nerdy way, but that I usually ruin it by going on to say or do something too silly. And this matches with one of DeAngelo's main points - a lot of people think you want to be a goofy, funny guy, but by itself, that doesn't make you attractive, just goofy and funny. Learning what is attractive and what is not takes time just like anything else and I don't think there's anything wrong with a class to help you.

That said, I'm not sure I care enough to change my behavior. I'm not goofy because I'm trying to pick up chicks, I'm goofy because I like being goofy. But I do not doubt for a second that if I was willing to refine that behavior I'd have a much easier time finding dates, (and by extension, a worthwhile meaningful relationship, which is my actual end goal).

The one thing that gives me a little pause is that even with a relationship as an endgoal, the process of getting there (if you are not naturally good at it and don't luck into meeting someone perfect for you in perfect circumstances) requires you to practice talking to lots of girls. Which I admit has lead me to a point where I subconsciously think that this particular girl "doesn't matter" because if I mess up I can just find and talk to another one. I don't think that's inherently bad or misogynistic if you recognize what's happening and work to counter it, but I can definitely see it leading to the kind of "Jeep hunting" that's been mocked here if you weren't think about it.

Raemon777 said:

How many people have actually read through what the "seduction community" people actually have to say? 'Cause while I'm sure a lot of them are milking desperate guys for money and others are promoting douchebaggery, I did read some of the sample stuff by David DeAngelo, and it really did make sense in the context of what I've seen work and what girls have told me works. DeAngelo is the one who advocates the "cocky and funny" approach. It's not about using specific pickup lines to automatically have sex with someone, it's an overall attitude. He has some sample pickup lines but those are just a hook to grab their attention, and saying them without confidence would be useless.

Looking through the wikipedia entry, I see some things that lend themselves towards misogyny (negative compliments designed to weaken self esteem being the biggest offender) but overall they strike me as perfectly valid approaches that would work just as well on a woman you really care about as on a random bar skank. Pickup lines and scripted stories may be problematic because they won't necessarily work in all circumstances if you can't adapt them, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with them.

I'm 23, and have never had a girlfriend. For a while, lack of confidence was a huge problem. But it hasn't been for a while now. Instead, the problem is that my confidence comes in the form of being willing to do absurd things that may be funny, may be clever and witty, but aren't attractive. I was actually told just today by a girl in my class that, with some frequency, I have moments where I come off as sexy in my own nerdy way, but that I usually ruin it by going on to say or do something too silly. And this matches with one of DeAngelo's main points - a lot of people think you want to be a goofy, funny guy, but by itself, that doesn't make you attractive, just goofy and funny. Learning what is attractive and what is not takes time just like anything else and I don't think there's anything wrong with a class to help you.

That said, I'm not sure I care enough to change my behavior. I'm not goofy because I'm trying to pick up chicks, I'm goofy because I like being goofy. But I do not doubt for a second that if I was willing to refine that behavior I'd have a much easier time finding dates, (and by extension, a worthwhile meaningful relationship, which is my actual end goal).

The one thing that gives me a little pause is that even with a relationship as an endgoal, the process of getting there (if you are not naturally good at it and don't luck into meeting someone perfect for you in perfect circumstances) requires you to practice talking to lots of girls. Which I admit has lead me to a point where I subconsciously think that this particular girl "doesn't matter" because if I mess up I can just find and talk to another one. I don't think that's inherently bad or misogynistic if you recognize what's happening and work to counter it, but I can definitely see it leading to the kind of "Jeep hunting" that's been mocked here if you weren't think about it.

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You asked her if you could put it in her butt, didn't you? :smug:

From Scott's Twitter:

God I SOOO want to get in on this heated discussion at Penny-Arcade.com

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Man, people are stupid as hell.

It's like each gender is incapable of realizing that both genders are humans, with thoughts, feelings, vices, intentions... I just want to start slapping so many of them.

What are you talking about? It's a well known fact that women are hollow robots made on Venus, and men are golems made of martian mud...

escushion said:

Man, people are stupid as *.

It's like each gender is incapable of realizing that both genders are humans, with thoughts, feelings, vices, intentions... I just want to start slapping so many of them.

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Yup.

I have one hopeless friend, however, that always believes a woman is out to manipulate him. He refuses to do anything for any woman because 'she's just using me'. It's annoying as hell and the dude has some relationship issues. He hates manipulation yet he always ends up with a psycho chick because he over analyzes normal women's behavior to the point of making shit up. For instance, if a girl so much as smiles at him, he thinks that she wants him. If she holds a conversation with him, she's out to get something etc...

:slap:

See though, this one-sentence fix-all is the kind of stuff that pisses me off just as much as sleazy pick-up programs. "Just be confident" or "just remember she is a person too" don't worry when at the very core of your being you are SCARED SHITLESS. One liners repeatedly in your head don't stop the sweating, or the inability to say anything, or cold hard KNOT that forms in your stomach and chest that freezes you in place. You don't help clueless men by saying a sentence and expecting them to totally figure it out.

I'm with Gabe in that, while noting how despicable these programs can be, I understand how the programs could come about in the first place. I sympathize with the men going to them, as I'm practically one of them. I'm sure I have some form of social anxiety but I've never had it checked out as it's never bothered me professionally. But put me in any social situation, even with just guys, and I clam up. If a woman is involved and there's even the slightest interest on my part, those knots form and the sweating flares up and I'm even worse verbally. Dealing with these reactions just by themselves would be tough enough; but now guys like me have to deal with the fact that women are much more focused on the partying aspect of guys for potential dating.

So I may be "misogynistically generalizing", but I only know one (1) woman who did not meet who she is currently dating or married to at a bar or danceclub. One, and that is a case of high school sweethearts. The rest that I know either plow through men like the stereotypical fat American at a buffet, or find a guy at these places and just cling to him even though he's a total asshat. The story is always the same; the guy doesn't appreciate her, is a jerk, but they'll have booty calls so she thinks she can make it work. I'm in a bar trivia group (the group calls me their ringer) and of the three women in it, one is dating someone else in the group who is constantly insulting her throughout the night, another is a shameless partier who will have Facebook status updates such as "Looking for any random makeout session!", and the last has drug issues. This isn't just a random sampling, as it has happened time and again throughout my experience. A girl I asked out in college said we were too good of friends, then promptly dated random 18-year olds from bars and lamented why she can't find "a nice guy". Another habitually sleeps with men who are dating other women, then apologizes profusely and swears she knows it is wrong, then goes on and keeps doing it. The one girl I attempted (badly) to ask out in high school constantly updates her Facebook with pictures from clubs and from partying...and also with status updates such as "Men are evil " and "Why can't I find good guys?", without putting 2 and 2 together.

So yes, when there's a constant signal from women that you have to be a jackass drunk at a club in order to date them it tends to make those of us guys who aren't a part of that culture wonder what the hell we can do. For even those few handfuls of women who don't subscribe to this theory of bar hookups require a constant navigation through a sea of non-verbal communication and flirting that is overwhelming for someone who reacts in social situations as I do. It's not just as easy as "being confident" and it's not just as easy as constantly reminding yourself "they're just people". So when I read stories like the one from Japan about the pillow loving and about these pick-up groups, sure it's scummy but I also completely understand. Society is forcing more and more people into these extremes because they can't curb their own behavior in the other extreme.

It is a random sampling. All women aren't whores. This sounds like such a cliche, and I raged against it until it happened to me too (lol random sampling!!!), but with the right girl, it's shockingly easy.

Qonas said:

So I may be "misogynistically generalizing", but I only know one (1) woman who did not meet who she is currently dating or married to at a bar or danceclub.

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I know maybe one couple who met at a bar, and they didn't even go home with each other that night. And my friends and I (male and female) have spent a lot of time in bars. You're clearly running in the wrong circles.

As someone with severe anxiety issues, I'm not opposed to any help I can get with the initial meeting. If I can get someone one talking to me, I usually loosen up enough that I can at least keep them interested... but currently this relies on them making the initial contact, as my crippling insecurities keep me from making the first move. I'm not looking to hunt down a girl from the back of a jeep... I just need help actually working myself up enough to take the shot, and I'm sure that's the case for a lot of guys.

AshburnerX said:

As someone with severe anxiety issues, I'm not opposed to any help I can get with the initial meeting. If I can get someone one talking to me, I usually loosen up enough that I can at least keep them interested... but currently this relies on them making the initial contact, as my crippling insecurities keep me from making the first move. I'm not looking to hunt down a girl from the back of a jeep... I just need help actually working myself up enough to take the shot, and I'm sure that's the case for a lot of guys.

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sigh... would you approach a man to be your friend with a preoutlined plan? Is that how you got your current friends? By planning out how to approach strangers and seeing what works? No one does! You make friends through chance encounters and by being introduced by other friends from various social circles. Guess what? Finding women is no different. My advice to all the lonely guys out there. Hang out with your buddies more and get introduced to new people often. Is you buddy going to a party at some dude named Joe's house? Don't chicken out and say you'd rather play Nintendo. Go out and have a good time. Mingle. Is your buddy going to a restaurant with his girlfriend and they're bring along a couple friends? Ask him if you can tag along.

Hell man, I was just leaving work the other day (I work in downtown Philly), I stopped at a pub outside of 30th street station to get a bite to eat since I was starving. There was a crew of construction workers there for happy hour. I just started shooting the shit with them after listening to the one guy tell some jokes. Mexico was playing the U.S. in Soccer on the T.V. and we all started to make fun of the Mexican team. "They force the losers to drink Corona." Anyway, it's shit like that that gets you into all sorts of social circles and exposure to more and more people. Maybe if I come in next week those guys will invite me to their house for beer and they'll introduce me to their wives' friends (if I was single and looking); maybe it was a one time encounter but at the least I had someone to shoot the shit with at the pub before getting the train.

My point is, that most of these guys having trouble finding a significant other usually stick to a close net circle of friends and never expand their horizons. The other problem tends to be high standards for a low standard person. What I mean is if your fat, lazy, and smell, you're not going to ace a supermodel girlfriend, yet I always see fat slobby guys shun the fat slobby women and try to pick up good looking women. If the pick up goes sour, they call those women shallow. Nice double standard. Honestly though, I'm not saying one needs to have a washboard stomach and perfect teeth, but they help.

You know they say networking is the best and number 1 way people get jobs, it's really no different on the dating scene.

Ok, but your missing the point Chaz: Some people (like myself) are simply incapable of forming those network connections or circles of friends because of some sort of mental condition, introversion, or just a general overall lack in self confidence. Telling us to man it up and get out there isn't a solution, as our very natures prevent us from doing that. It's actually insulting to claim its so simple because we're living proof that its not.

What we are looking for (most of us anyway) is the confidence to be able to stand on our own in these situations so we CAN simply go out and let it happen. All I'm trying to say here is that if these kinds of techniques can help somebody gain that confidence, are they really so bad? Yeah, it's not going to help out those guys who are simply trying to score beautiful woman for one night stands, but it COULD help the shy, awkward guy finally get up the courage to ask out that girl he's been hanging out with for months.

Girls have the same types of issues we do. Some are confident and some are not. Some have game and some do not. The trick is realizing that NOBODY has the answer for you but you. If it's that bad I'd consider doing something to take care of it. Overweight? Go to the gym. Not to meet a girl but to lose weight. Bad teeth? Go to the dentist. Basically, find out what it is about yourself that YOU think prevents you from being attractive. Once you've worked on that, you will have more self confidence.

Still having issues talking to someone? Get thee to a therapist! Join a church group. Take up a SOCIAL hobby like softball, bowling, etc. DON'T go out looking for love. Just go out & have fun. Relax. Geeks like us tend to overthink these things. Trust me. I wish I had photos of how I looked in my early 20s; HUGE glasses, fucked up teeth, skinny as a rail, long scraggly hair. I got my hair cut, got new glasses & started hanging out with my friends. That was a little longer than 16 years ago. It's also when I met my wife.

Relax. Have some fun. Drink a couple. Don't sweat it. It'll happen...and not when YOU want it to. It'll happen when you least expect it and it'll come from a totally unexpected direction.

Edrondol said:

Girls have the same types of issues we do. Some are confident and some are not. Some have game and some do not. The trick is realizing that NOBODY has the answer for you but you. If it's that bad I'd consider doing something to take care of it. Overweight? Go to the gym. Not to meet a girl but to lose weight. Bad teeth? Go to the dentist. Basically, find out what it is about yourself that YOU think prevents you from being attractive. Once you've worked on that, you will have more self confidence.

Still having issues talking to someone? Get thee to a therapist! Join a church group. Take up a SOCIAL hobby like softball, bowling, etc. DON'T go out looking for love. Just go out & have fun. Relax. Geeks like us tend to overthink these things. Trust me. I wish I had photos of how I looked in my early 20s; HUGE glasses, fucked up teeth, skinny as a rail, long scraggly hair. I got my hair cut, got new glasses & started hanging out with my friends. That was a little longer than 16 years ago. It's also when I met my wife.

Relax. Have some fun. Drink a couple. Don't sweat it. It'll happen...and not when YOU want it to. It'll happen when you least expect it and it'll come from a totally unexpected direction.

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All of this. I've stopped drinking soda, I've been going out more, I shaved my goatee and sideburns, cut my hair, and have at least been trying to be less of a social outcast. It helped to realize that for the most part, it was self-imposed because I believed nobody gave a shit. The last 6 months have shown me otherwise, even though it's been hard on me mentally and financially. Things are working out. I'm still single, but I'm out and talking to people and eventually I'm sure I'll find someone who's interested. No need to rush, no need to push. Just being myself will be enough, I'm sure.

The guys who don't know to shape up, be confident, etc, are really the ones who shouldn't be passing along their genes anyway, leaving it to the more superior.


I'm Chaz now. :toocool:

escushion said:

The guys who don't know to shape up, be confident, etc, are really the ones who shouldn't be passing along their genes anyway, leaving it to the more superior.


I'm Chaz now. :toocool:

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but escushion, without them, who will we put into lockers after gym class? :smug:

Charlie Dont Surf said:

escushion said:

The guys who don't know to shape up, be confident, etc, are really the ones who shouldn't be passing along their genes anyway, leaving it to the more superior.


I'm Chaz now. :toocool:

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but escushion, without them, who will we put into lockers after gym class? :smug:

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Yeah, I'm so sure you were the abuser and not the abusee. :eyeroll:

Adammon said:

Charlie Dont Surf said:

escushion said:

The guys who don't know to shape up, be confident, etc, are really the ones who shouldn't be passing along their genes anyway, leaving it to the more superior.


I'm Chaz now. :toocool:

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but escushion, without them, who will we put into lockers after gym class? :smug:

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Yeah, I'm so sure you were the abuser and not the abusee. :eyeroll:

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He was the abusee when it came to women .

Edrondol said:

Girls have the same types of issues we do. Some are confident and some are not. Some have game and some do not. The trick is realizing that NOBODY has the answer for you but you. If it's that bad I'd consider doing something to take care of it. Overweight? Go to the gym. Not to meet a girl but to lose weight. Bad teeth? Go to the dentist. Basically, find out what it is about yourself that YOU think prevents you from being attractive. Once you've worked on that, you will have more self confidence.

Still having issues talking to someone? Get thee to a therapist! Join a church group. Take up a SOCIAL hobby like softball, bowling, etc. DON'T go out looking for love. Just go out & have fun. Relax. Geeks like us tend to overthink these things. Trust me. I wish I had photos of how I looked in my early 20s; HUGE glasses, smurfed up teeth, skinny as a rail, long scraggly hair. I got my hair cut, got new glasses & started hanging out with my friends. That was a little longer than 16 years ago. It's also when I met my wife.

Relax. Have some fun. Drink a couple. Don't sweat it. It'll happen...and not when YOU want it to. It'll happen when you least expect it and it'll come from a totally unexpected direction.

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Damn right!

-- Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:04 pm --

AshburnerX said:

Ok, but your missing the point Chaz: Some people (like myself) are simply incapable of forming those network connections or circles of friends because of some sort of mental condition, introversion, or just a general overall lack in self confidence. Telling us to man it up and get out there isn't a solution, as our very natures prevent us from doing that. It's actually insulting to claim its so simple because we're living proof that its not.

What we are looking for (most of us anyway) is the confidence to be able to stand on our own in these situations so we CAN simply go out and let it happen. All I'm trying to say here is that if these kinds of techniques can help somebody gain that confidence, are they really so bad? Yeah, it's not going to help out those guys who are simply trying to score beautiful woman for one night stands, but it COULD help the shy, awkward guy finally get up the courage to ask out that girl he's been hanging out with for months.

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No one can give you confidence and self respect but you! All I'm saying is that if you act like a social outcast you shouldn't expect to meet many people and thus you decrease any chance of meeting someone you get along with. Let's face it, that perfect person isn't going to fall into your lap on a magical whim. I really don't understand what's so hard about talking to other people, men or women. You're human. You're hardwired to socialize at least on one level or another.

Sorry to say, if you've been hanging out for months with a girl and nothing's happening, it's probably because there's no interest on the other end. Women will tell you if they want to pursue things further too ya know... I hate that old story of the 'nice guy' getting shafted after months and months of friendship. It's a cop out. You're pretty much calling the girl a dumbass for not realizing that she's in love with you. The reality is that she's not interested.

-- Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:05 pm --

Charlie Dont Surf said:

escushion said:

The guys who don't know to shape up, be confident, etc, are really the ones who shouldn't be passing along their genes anyway, leaving it to the more superior.


I'm Chaz now. :toocool:

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but escushion, without them, who will we put into lockers after gym class? :smug:

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Chazwozel said:

I really don't understand what's so hard about talking to other people, men or women. You're human. You're hardwired to socialize at least on one level or another.

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Chaz, no offense, but everything you just said to Ash and others in this thread can be brought back to this. It's great that you don't have problems talking to people and socializing, it's a great skill that's useful in work life, love life, general getting along with people, having adventures, and whatever. Not everyone has the ability. It may be anxiety issues, it may be some physical disability making it hard on them, it may be a psychological disability, it may just be a general disconnect, it may be trauma-induced in one of a thousand ways, it may be a small form of psychopathy, it may just be that a person's not that good at getting along with people.
Whatever the reason, many - and ever more and more, in this day and age - people have a hard time talking to other people, or, even more so, people from the other gender. That you don't understand what this is like is nice, but it also means that, well, you shouldn't try to give advice and expect to make everything nice and well for them. You may be able to give help and pointers, but just saying "suck it up and deal with it" makes about as much sense as me telling a woman who's having a bad period to "just get over it" because I never have trouble with mine.
So, you know, just accept that some people can't "just go out and have fun". Heck, even for not socially somehow less proficent people, sometimes, those two can be mutually exclusive. For some, especially once you get slightly older and see opportunities disappear, they can really become impossible to combine without a lot of planning and bracing yourself. No, "going out with people, chatting around a bit, having a drink" isn't fun for everyone.
Preferring to sit at home and play games isn't a cop out, it might just be that it's easier, and more calming, and less hurtful, to play a computer game, than it is to go out and try to mix in. Heck, I'm a social guy, I go out lots. I have hundrerds of acquaintances, I eat out with friends at whatever restaurant or times a week, easily. So, I'm in a different category than Ash is, probably. That I can't connect with women has other reasons, and I'm aware of most of them - that I can't or won't change thme is another matter. Still, I can probably identify with him quite a bit more than you can. So...Just say " I don't understand your problem". It won't come off as degrading.

Thank you Bubble... I was looking for a way to phrase that that wouldn't sound like I was calling him a jerk, because I could tell he wasn't trying to be.

I don't think these classes are the answer.

I'm still not the best of socializers, but I was worse younger. My parents thought I had Asberger's. But around when I turned 19, I sucked it up, grew a pair, and stopped giving a shit what happened. And it sucks at first. Everyone feels like an ass going across the room to talk to a girl, just for her to blow you off, but you should also get a sense of pride that you tried.

Yeah, I mean I got shot down after the girl told me I was someone she could love, but we can't be together because I'm not Mormon. It hurt like hell, but you know what? Knowing someone can feel like that about me (and the fact that we still talk and get along) makes me feel pretty fucking good.

I can socialize like all kinds of awesome. I just walk up to the ladies and drop my pants and say, "Hey girls, who wants to pick those up? Takers? No? Anyone? You? No? Ooooooookay". At the very least they know I'm interested.

Bubble181 said:

Chazwozel said:

I really don't understand what's so hard about talking to other people, men or women. You're human. You're hardwired to socialize at least on one level or another.

Click to expand...

Chaz, no offense, but everything you just said to Ash and others in this thread can be brought back to this. It's great that you don't have problems talking to people and socializing, it's a great skill that's useful in work life, love life, general getting along with people, having adventures, and whatever. Not everyone has the ability. It may be anxiety issues, it may be some physical disability making it hard on them, it may be a psychological disability, it may just be a general disconnect, it may be trauma-induced in one of a thousand ways, it may be a small form of psychopathy, it may just be that a person's not that good at getting along with people.
Whatever the reason, many - and ever more and more, in this day and age - people have a hard time talking to other people, or, even more so, people from the other gender. That you don't understand what this is like is nice, but it also means that, well, you shouldn't try to give advice and expect to make everything nice and well for them. You may be able to give help and pointers, but just saying "suck it up and deal with it" makes about as much sense as me telling a woman who's having a bad period to "just get over it" because I never have trouble with mine.
So, you know, just accept that some people can't "just go out and have fun". Heck, even for not socially somehow less proficent people, sometimes, those two can be mutually exclusive. For some, especially once you get slightly older and see opportunities disappear, they can really become impossible to combine without a lot of planning and bracing yourself. No, "going out with people, chatting around a bit, having a drink" isn't fun for everyone.
Preferring to sit at home and play games isn't a cop out, it might just be that it's easier, and more calming, and less hurtful, to play a computer game, than it is to go out and try to mix in. Heck, I'm a social guy, I go out lots. I have hundrerds of acquaintances, I eat out with friends at whatever restaurant or times a week, easily. So, I'm in a different category than Ash is, probably. That I can't connect with women has other reasons, and I'm aware of most of them - that I can't or won't change thme is another matter. Still, I can probably identify with him quite a bit more than you can. So...Just say " I don't understand your problem". It won't come off as degrading.

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Well let me start off by saying, I really don't mean to be a dick about it, but I'm not the one usually asking for help in these sorts of situations; it's the guys moping about how they don't have a girlfriend. Anyone can take my advice or leave it. I'm not the one sleeping alone tonight.

Preferring to sit at home is exactly a cop out. You've even explain why it is a cop out. It's easier and more comforting. Life isn't easy. And the one thing you can take to the bank is no one is responsible for your life other than you. Your life is what you make of it. If you're lonely and without a partner and you resent it, take a good long look in the mirror cause that's the person to blame. Not social anxiety, not physical disability, not that asshole (that's dating the girl of your dreams, if only she'd come around and see what a great guy you'd be for her). Social anxiety is just another word for low self-esteem. Physical disability? Lance Armstrong survived cancer and went on to win the Tour de France. That guy has done more with one ball then most men do with two.

-- Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:18 pm --

escushion said:

I don't think these classes are the answer.

I'm still not the best of socializers, but I was worse younger. My parents thought I had Asberger's. But around when I turned 19, I sucked it up, grew a pair, and stopped giving a poop what happened. And it sucks at first. Everyone feels like an a** going across the room to talk to a girl, just for her to blow you off, but you should also get a sense of pride that you tried.

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I wouldn't even try the direct approach like that. Every girl I ended up in a meaning relationship with by simply getting introduced through friends. Now one nighters... that's a whole other kettle of fish. Gotta love the club rats. I'm sure you and your buds still got a good laugh over the pick up approach. Fact of the matter is, who cares if they blow you off. There are-what- like 3 billion other women in the world?

As the self-anointed quiet person on the boards, I figured I should contribute to a thread about talking to people.

I'm incredibly shy. The idea of talking to somebody I don't know or only kind of know makes me feel kind of weak in the knees. I'm not exactly at that level where I can just walk up to somebody and start a conversation.

I don't have much confidence in my skills as a conversationalist. I realize the only way to get better as a conversationalist is to practice and the only way to practice is to have conversations. Conversing with people, small talk or regular talk, makes me nervous. That said, the only way for me to get better is to decide I'm not nervous. It's hard and I'll probably make an ass out of myself multiple times, but being Allen, who is an Idiot beats being Allen, who is Lonely any day of the weak.

It's hard, but at this point, the only way for me to beat anxiety is to decide I'm not anxious at all.

I find myself in a kind of in between phase of learning how to socialize. I didn't really party or anything in highschool, and soon after going to college I met my girlfriend who I dated for 3 years. I knew how to talk to HER and that was enough. At least, it was until she dumped me. Now I'm 23 and just now learning how to get out there an talk to people. There was a while where I thought it was impossible. The first step to changing though, was to admit that I could and decide that I want to. And I know that kinda sounds dickish, but I don't know how else to put.

The thing to remember is baby steps. Getting over anxiety isn't like flicking a switch off. Chazwozel has some decent advice. Go out with your friends when you can. I used to avoid parties and stuff, because I always figured I'd have nothing to say, and sometimes it's true. Sometimes I just chill in the back and only talk to my friends. Sometimes though, I actually do mingle and it's never as scary as I initially think.

I'm not to the point where I can just go out alone, but I go out with some friends and talk to who they talk to. I know I'll get to where I want to be, but it'll take time and effort.

Well, my point is - with me, AwiQ, Phil, Ashburner, CynicismKills, North_ranger, and quite a few others here, we have a pretty large group of people in different steps along the way. Ashburner and I forgot who, but at least one other here, sound like they're probably having the most problems right now - though I'd say I was worse off, a while ago. Batdan's another example of one who was in a similar situation but somehow ended up leaving us for that bitch who steals all his time with us....I mean, the probably awesome girl he's dating right now (I know his absence here has more to do with other reasons, and I'm happy for him, it's my bad attempt at making a joke).
I think pretty much everyone here agrees these lessons are not the answer. Heck, I'll even go as far as saying that everyone here is aware that sitting aloone at home isn't going to magically solve anything.
Still, even if we're agreed on that, and even if I agree with you that going out, practising, talking to girls, hanging out with friends, etc, is the only way to "get over" it; even if I agree that the only way to become better at socialising - and, thus, become less anxious - is to go out and do it, that still doesn't mean "you're a pussy, grow a pair and get out, wimp" is quite the way I'd go about trying to motivate those with trouble doing that.
To make a not-quite-perfect comparison, the only way to lose weight and get in shape is to start moving and exercising. But obese people are also those who have low self-esteem (on their physical appearance), do NOT enjoy exercise, have a hard time working up the courage to begin, and, because they are out of shape, see the least results and have the hardest time keeping it up.
A fit, healthy young guy who likes running and lifting weights can easily say "oh, just suck it up, running's fun! We're made to run! Hop to it!", but that doesn't suddenly make it easy for a fat guy to do it. For someone who's completely out of shape, just walking around the block might be quite an achievement - telling him to go out and run a mile because it'll make him feel good, is silly and self-defeating, because it confronts him with something that the sporty guy still considers an "easy" thing to do, while it's frankly impossible for him at that point.
Chaz, I know you're trying to help and all that, but you come off as pushing too hard, too fast, which tends to not work. I know, it works for some people, in some cases, blahblahblah, but, contrary to what you tend to see in movies about the army and such - it DOESNT work for the majority of people.
I don't know just how bad it is in Ash's case, so I can't judge, and I might insult him now, but for all I know, it could be an achievement for him to just have a friend over and play some games with him, and talk to him. Going out to a club/bar/party/whatnot with a group of friends, and there not only get introduced to new people, but actually talk with these and try to accomlish something with such conversation, may be a long way off. Having a friend over (or going over to a friends') may seem ridiculous to you, but it might be a necessary step and a small but meaningful victory to him.
Heck, I posted in the Win thread earleir today about the fact that I actually dared to ask a girl out for the first time. Mind you, I'm 24 and I've finished high school, college, and university, without ever working up the guts to do so. Laugh all you want. *shrug*

Bubble181 said:

I don't know just how bad it is in Ash's case, so I can't judge, and I might insult him now, but for all I know, it could be an achievement for him to just have a friend over and play some games with him, and talk to him.

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No, picking up the phone and talking to someone who isn't related to me by blood is an achievement. Actually having somebody in my house just to hang out would be fucking amazing. When I say I have anxiety problems, I literally mean I've become the Boo Radley of the neighborhood. It's hard to make friends when you've become as... legendary as I have in my area.

Well, there you go. I haven't been that far down the road, luckily, but I sympathize. Known people who've been there, and all that.
Of couyrse, if you have gotten "notorious" for it around where you live,that, in itself, adds to the problems. Reputations of any kind can have a severe impact on relationships - in my home town, I'm still known as the happy cheery one, while in one of my fraternities I really developped the name of being the always-grumpy one. Odd thing is, I usually whistle happily walking around town, and I always end up gloomy and depressed at parties of said fraternity - because people view me that way.
If they view you as the secluded, hermit type of person who doesn't want to interact with others (the difference between "wants to" and "can" is often lost on people), yeah, that adds a layer of problems. I don't have any magic solutions, I'm afraid. If you have some nephew/brother/whatnot of a somewhat similar age you can get along with, that might help. But from what I know so far, I'm going to guess that you either don't have one, or if you do, he made fun of you and you don't actually get along. I may be wrong, basing myself on stereotypes, though.

Also, awesome comparison. Literature instead of comics, hurray!

Dammit, why didn't you guys warn me how much gas a jeep guzzles... would have been cheaper to just stick with hookers...

@Li3n said:

Dammit, why didn't you guys warn me how much gas a jeep guzzles... would have been cheaper to just stick with hookers...

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The problem is that you take too long to find them. Lay traps and let them come to you. I placed a copy of the notebook in an open field. Once a herd started to gather I had the driver simply corral them while I picked off the weaker ones.

A good way to practice talking to people (I used to bad at it until I started practicing) is to approach people you AREN'T remotely interested in (old ladies in the park for example) and say "Hi. How're you doing?" It's a decent way to get into the habit of talking to strangers, and you can work your way from there to people you're interested in (either romantically or otherwise).

Disposable people... it's what's happening...


@phil

your ideas interest me... can i has more?

The first step is almost always the hardest.

I used to be painfully shy, ridiculously inept socially, boring and generally creepy. All of those qualities still exist, more or less, today. But before, even the idea of being in a social situation scared the crap out of me.

Then I had a change in environment. I went to university. Everyone was new there. I figured I had nothing to lose, so I went to the Welcome Dinner for incoming first year students. I talked to a girl there, a girl I found attractive and thought I'd like to know better. Her name was Emily, and she was awfully nice to me.

I can still remember the feeling as I looked at her and started to talk. A feeling like, "Oh my god, here I go." Sort of like when you're at the top of a hill in a rickety wagon, and lean forward that little bit to make it start rolling down the hill. You know full well you can't stop the wagon once it starts. You know full well it could end in disaster. Yet you choose to lean forward nonetheless.

I don't remember anything we talked about. But I remember that feeling.

Anyway, once I took that first step, the second step (talking to her again the next day) was slightly easier. And the step after that (talking to her sister, who also went to the same university) slightly easier again.

I have no idea where Emily is now these days. But I'm grateful I got to talk to her.