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How would you feel about your government asking you to send them any emails or websites about them or their programs that is critical of them or seems suspicious to you?
Would you send them a family members email? A website you visited? Would asking for this stuff bother you? Or no big deal? Would you worry about privacy?

If the government is so concerned about uncovering this stuff, my answer to them is:

ZenMonkey said:

If the government is so concerned about uncovering this stuff, my answer to them is:

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I suppose you could send them a link to http://lmgtfy.com/

They have everything anyway thanks to AT&T, et. al. Why would they need to get stuff from us?

DarkAudit said:

They have everything anyway thanks to AT&T, et. al. Why would they need to get stuff from us?

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Well, in science fiction/ww2 type stories it's usually to control the population through fear right? Let's assume it's much more benign than that though, more of a "hey, if you get an email from your dad about why the Iraq war is bad, send it to us so we can rebut it". It's still the same thing in theory, you reporting your dad, but it sounds like they just want to help (and maybe they do?).

If the government really wanted my information they can get it easily enough. So if it;s that important to them make them do the work cause I am not about to do it for them.

hylian said:

If the government really wanted my information they can get it easily enough. So if it;s that important to them make them do the work cause I am not about to do it for them.

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Well, in my scenario I set up they don't want "your" info, they want the info your friends send you or that you find on a website like this place.

You are talking about modern day McCarthism. Nosir, I don't like it.

And anyone who answers "Yes" to this poll deserves a :slap:

Edrondol said:

You are talking about modern day McCarthism. Nosir, I don't like it.

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Even if they just want you to let them know if someone is talking bad about a program or the war or something similar so they can handle the misinformation?

Espy said:

hylian said:

If the government really wanted my information they can get it easily enough. So if it;s that important to them make them do the work cause I am not about to do it for them.

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Well, in my scenario I set up they don't want "your" info, they want the info your friends send you or that you find on a website like this place.

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I still say no.

They can get their hands on the information easily enough. I am not going to bend over and give them whatever they want.

Espy said:

Even if they just want you to let them know if someone is talking bad about a program or the war or something similar so they can handle the misinformation?

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"Handle the misinformation"?

"Hi, we're the government and we noticed that you have a negative opinion of the war in Iraq. Let us correct a few misapprehensions..."

Right. Just read the :quote: news :quote: and you get that in spades already.

Is this in reference to Obama wanting you to send him forwards of misinformation about the healthcare crisis or whatever else your grandparents send you in forwards?

Charlie Dont Surf said:

Is this in reference to Obama wanting you to send him forwards of misinformation about the healthcare crisis or whatever else your grandparents send you in forwards?

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Well, it's what got me thinking, but I wanted to keep it more general and less focused on any one president or program, hence the way I phrased the question, trying to keep general political party bias out of it. It's usually a more interesting discussion without those that I think.

What Charlie is talking about, for those who don't know, is found here at ABC: http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/08/gop-senator-white-house-encroaching-on-first-amendment.html

“There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”

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I'm still more interested in a more general discussion, and I don't think the administration is trying to pull anything eeeeeeevil, but I don't think they thought this idea through very well. :heythere:

Current governments? Hell naw, I wouldn't trust them at all. Now, if we had a decent one like, say, an imperial one based in a head figure that happened to be the avatar of humanity and our only hope against the evil that besieges us... Yes.

Sign 'em up for porn spam.

Absolutely not. Don't trust that the government (current or past administrations) has my best interest in mind. If they did this, it would just add fuel to my fire of mistrust.

I wouldn't hesitate to report suspicious activities though.

speech critical of the government = free speech
planning/participating in terrorist activities = heap-o-trouble

Nope. Even if their intentions are benign, the next lot's might not be. It establishes a precedent worryingly open to abuse.

That said, I might ask them questions based on what I have read without naming names to see if they have a good counterargument.

Anything I'd have to say, I'd be willing to say to their faces. If they wanted people to forward stuff I've sent them then they should just ask me. So no I wouldn't forward anything, if they're so concerned they could go and sort it out themselves.

The proper response is "google it up noob!" ....


Because how can they run a country when they can't even

DarkAudit said:

They have everything anyway thanks to AT&T, et. al. Why would they need to get stuff from us?

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http://proliberty.com/observer/20000917.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_(s ... telligence)
http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm

Carnivore?
Echelon?

Anyone heard of these things? They don't need us for spying purposes.

I wouldn't do it, but not because I'm worried about privacy, or not just because I'm worried about privacy. As it has been pointed out already, privacy has already been compromised to a fair-thee-well. My problem with it would be that, at least here in the US, we're supposed to have the freedom of speech (at least against the government). If I want to say that the US government is a piece of shit, I should be able to do so without fear of anyone forwarding my email or blog post to them.

Gared said:

I wouldn't do it, but not because I'm worried about privacy, or not just because I'm worried about privacy. As it has been pointed out already, privacy has already been compromised to a fair-thee-well. My problem with it would be that, at least here in the US, we're supposed to have the freedom of speech (at least against the government). If I want to say that the US government is a piece of shit, I should be able to do so without fear of anyone forwarding my email or blog post to them.

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On the other hand, if you think the government is a piece of shit, don't you want them to know that they're doing a poor job?

Charlie Dont Surf said:

Gared said:

I wouldn't do it, but not because I'm worried about privacy, or not just because I'm worried about privacy. As it has been pointed out already, privacy has already been compromised to a fair-thee-well. My problem with it would be that, at least here in the US, we're supposed to have the freedom of speech (at least against the government). If I want to say that the US government is a piece of shit, I should be able to do so without fear of anyone forwarding my email or blog post to them.

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On the other hand, if you think the government is a piece of shit, don't you want them to know that they're doing a poor job?

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That should my own decision to make, not someone else's.

If they want to do this I don't really have a problem with it. I wouldn't participate in it though, and the first email I got from them would get added to the spam filter. If it was used to keep a list of possible trouble makers, it would be different. As has been said though, they have quicker and easier ways to do that though.

Charlie Dont Surf said:

Gared said:

I wouldn't do it, but not because I'm worried about privacy, or not just because I'm worried about privacy. As it has been pointed out already, privacy has already been compromised to a fair-thee-well. My problem with it would be that, at least here in the US, we're supposed to have the freedom of speech (at least against the government). If I want to say that the US government is a piece of shit, I should be able to do so without fear of anyone forwarding my email or blog post to them.

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On the other hand, if you think the government is a piece of shit, don't you want them to know that they're doing a poor job?

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Certainly, but there's a difference between what I tell my congressional/senatorial/mayoral/gubernatorial/presidential representatives and what I tell my friends and family. For instance, when I have actually communicated with the government, I've been very clear in what the issue was, why I was writing, what I thought, etc.

Generally speaking, when I'm swearing at the government, it's a minor annoyance that I'm not going to think about past the next 20 or 30 minutes. Why take up their time with my minor annoyances?

I have two thoughts on this:

This might be a good way for the government to find out misinformation about things that are being done and try to bettre inform people. I don't know if that would be the intention, though.

I would not give any kind of personal information out at all. If I genuinely thought someone was going to do something dangerous, I would give information about that. As for critical websites, they can find that for themselves.

So I guess the answer is no, unless I thought someone might be in real danger.

Cajungal said:

This might be a good way for the government to find out misinformation about things that are being done and try to bettre inform people. I don't know if that would be the intention, though.

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Well, in the case of what Charlie brought up, that's what they are saying. Get an email from your friend that is "fishy" about our new healthcare plan? Email it to us so we can address us. I think they have the right idea, addressing misconceptions, but it's a PHENOMENALLY bad way to go about it.

Whenever somebody asks these kinds of questions, I ask myself three things: "Would I do this for free?", "Would I do this for gain?", and "Would I do this out of spite?".

Would I do this for free? No. The government hasn't exactly done a whole fucking lot to help me, despite my attempts to get services when I was suffering my mental problems. I also question what they would use the information for.

Would I do this if there was a cash or other incentive? I'd definitely be tempted... I'd like to say no, but I'm not sure. It would definitely depend on how financially desperate I was and how I felt about the person I'd be ratting out.

Would I do this out of spite against somebody I wanted to hurt? I'd like to say no, but I've seen myself say and do some horrible things in anger. I might be willing to do this just to hassle somebody who wronged me.

13 seconds until a bazillion people take this story and run with it by creating all sorts of chain emails about the new healthcare system.

If I weren't lazy, mine would be:

Joe Biden said:

Obama's new healthcare plan requires all children born on gov't healthcare to be tattooed with their social security number, and one child out of every family is automatically signed up for military boot camp at 17. Usually this is the oldest male, but you can use forms on the gov't website to change that to another child.

Mr. Obama, however, wants the tech sector to thrive, so if you got this email then your family is sufficiently technical enough that you can use gov't health care without the tattoos or military conscription by adding your name to the bottom and sending this email to flag@whitehouse.gov.

Forward this on to anyone else you think might want to opt out of this program while retaining your healthcare benefits!

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-Adam

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 71822.html

Oh this is good. Given the way the 'program' is implemented:

All records collected in this manner MUST be permanently collected and kept, and are immune to ANY requests (such as FOIA).

So Obama has just implemented a secret, permanent US citizen data collection program.

One senator points out,

Republican Sen. John Cornyn said:

\"I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked Americans to forward emails critical of his policies to the White House. I urge you to cease this program immediately.\"

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How long until the program is scuttled, do you think?

-Adam

stienman said:

How long until the program is scuttled, do you think?

-Adam

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Is it even making the news (outside of fox that is, which lets face it, doesn't count)? I'll be surprised if anyone cares.
So reading what Adam has posted, does this particular thing bother any of you guys? It's starting to bother me now... not that I think something eeeeevil or anything is going to happen, but it doesn't seem like anything I want my government doing...

As a public service I'm forwarding the contents of this thread, and the voting records (By IP, username, and email address) to flag@whitehouse.gov. I'm pretty sure this will result in peace in the Middle East.

Of course, if you aren't subversive you won't have anything to fear, so I can't see anyone complaining about this...

:tongue:

-Adam

Hey now, nothing was "fishy" in here! Wait.. are those black helicopters? Oh crap... I see him, oh my... oh sweet buddha, he's here! He's here!

I don't see what the whitehouse would gain by compiling a "dissident list". It seems more like a poorly thought out attempt at trying to correct some of the bad information.

It's obviously having a negative effect though. We shouldn't have to worry about what emails we send to others. It's going to make people think twice about expressing themselves or their beliefs out of fear that it may get sent to the government, and that doesn't seem right. Obama can basically bust into any network programming and get free time on network TV. If he wants to correct misinformation, that seems like a better route.

Shakey said:

I don't see what the whitehouse would gain by compiling a "dissident list". It seems more like a poorly thought out attempt at trying to correct some of the bad information.

It's obviously having a negative effect though. We shouldn't have to worry about what emails we send to others. It's going to make people think twice about expressing themselves or their beliefs out of fear that it may get sent to the government, and that doesn't seem right. Obama can basically bust into any network programming and get free time on network TV. If he wants to correct misinformation, that seems like a better route.

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I think that's what so odd about it. I really, REALLY don't think they have bad intentions or are slowly twisting their long mustaches and laughing over this, but it's such a poor idea and so amazingly unnecessary that I can't figure it out.

Like other said, all internet traffic is currently being spied upon anyway. So I doubt it's that much of a hassle for them to get any information they want on you, your relatives or anyone you've ever known. Heck I believe we have to most phonetaps per inhabitant over here as well.

Giving any info willingly however, no. If the government wants me to send them stuff it'll have to be enforced by a just law first.

Shakey said:

I don't see what the whitehouse would gain by compiling a "dissident list".

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It's not their intention to gather a dissident list, as far as I can tell. But due to the laws and regulations concerning how they are collecting and disseminating data, it effectively becomes such.

They have designed the program in such a way that they are required to hold onto this information in perpetuity, and are not required to disclose any of it. Whether this was intentional or not doesn't matter - it is what it is.

But it points to two troubling possibilities:

1. They understood the rules and outcome, and designed this program to take advantage of it (ie, they are intentionally collecting this information in a way that will allow them to keep it forever, and keep it secret)

or

2. They didn't understand the rules, and are now collecting data in a way that requires them to hold onto it for the use of the president and any future president for any reason or purpose without ever disclosing that it was used, much less how it was used or what is in it.

Either way, the outcome is bad, which is leading many to scratch their heads at the apparent stupidity of Obama - because right now people are still thinking the best of him. But one shouldn't be thinking about him. What if we got someone in office who decided to use that data 20 years from now? They pull up 20 year old emails that may have nothing to do with Obama's healthcare plan, but were part of someone else's email as a quoted bit.

The difference between this and current internet tapping is
1. No warrant
2. They can't decide 20 years from now that they want to read emails from this time.
3. Legally, they can't order taps for political purposes, but this data they can use in ANY way they want.

So, again, it's within reason to believe that the data collected now could be used against someone in the future. The data never needs to be disclosed, and it's stored forever.

It's another Hoover's Secret Files at best (and that was bad enough) or much worse (ie, I'm trying to avoid godwin'ing the thread, but, well, they had similar programs that started out innocently enough with no repercussions - just let us know if someone is passing out 'bad' information...).

-Adam

It's only about health care stuff though, right? I'm not going to get into trouble for perhaps suggesting that Obama has a questionable tattoo on his hiney, right?

Crap. Maybe it's time to go dark for a while.

Hoover's secret files:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial ... =110006987

-Adam

stienman said:

It's not their intention to gather a dissident list, as far as I can tell. But due to the laws and regulations concerning how they are collecting and disseminating data, it effectively becomes such.

They have designed the program in such a way that they are required to hold onto this information in perpetuity, and are not required to disclose any of it. Whether this was intentional or not doesn't matter - it is what it is.

But it points to two troubling possibilities:

1. They understood the rules and outcome, and designed this program to take advantage of it (ie, they are intentionally collecting this information in a way that will allow them to keep it forever, and keep it secret)

or

2. They didn't understand the rules, and are now collecting data in a way that requires them to hold onto it for the use of the president and any future president for any reason or purpose without ever disclosing that it was used, much less how it was used or what is in it.

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Problem is they have to use the Whitehouse email system. It is a requirement that all email correspondence that any Whitehouse official uses for government business has to be the Whitehouse email. So I don't think they designed it to collect names, it was just an unintended consequence.

I agree that what they wanted it to be doesn't matter. It's a bad idea and should shut it down.