Export thread

GAH! So I'm here in my office and just got done going over a couple of problem sets with a student. These sets depend on converting grams to moles. Anyway long story short, she sees me bust out the calculator for the easy math; things like 10000/100, that sort of shit.

"Professor, you work with numbers all the time why are you using a calculator?" I explained that it's not a sin to use a calculator if you understand the math involved. Why would I do this all in my head?

Why is it that students assume that they're supposed pretend to be walking calculators and dictionaries?

Society in general seems to treat the reliance on calculators as kind of a crutch. Society is dumb?

Because they've been taught all their life to not use a calculator. That they need to know how to do the math on paper without the use of an aid so that their math professors can see that they do understand what had been taught to them.


edit: Also, my mom used to tell me that I couldn't carry a calculator around with me every where I went until I pointed out that she had one in her purse at all times.

General Specific said:

Because they've been taught all their life to not use a calculator. That they need to know how to do the math on paper without the use of an aid so that their math professors can see that they do understand what had been taught to them.


edit: Also, my mom used to tell me that I couldn't carry a calculator around with me every where I went until I pointed out that she had one in her purse at all times.

Click to expand...

The point I try to get across is that a calculator is a tool; not a crutch. But more to the point, I guess I just don't like it when people pretend to act overly smart when they don't have to be.

I'm glad my parents were rational about calculators. When they found out my gradeschool class would be using them, my mom did her research. She found out that studies had shown students learn math faster when using a calculator (because it's faster/easier to get in the repetition necessary for learning.)

It wasn't until high school that I was allowed to use the Internet for school papers.

I get the need to learn fundamentals and know how to do things on your own and what not, but not to the point some people take it.

Chazwozel;442763][QUOTE=General Specific said:

Because they've been taught all their life to not use a calculator. That they need to know how to do the math on paper without the use of an aid so that their math professors can see that they do understand what had been taught to them.


edit: Also, my mom used to tell me that I couldn't carry a calculator around with me every where I went until I pointed out that she had one in her purse at all times.

Click to expand...

The point I try to get across is that a calculator is a tool; not a crutch. But more to the point, I guess I just don't like it when people pretend to act overly smart when they don't have to be.[/QUOTE]

Shiiiit foool, are YOU on the wrong forum!

You went to grade school to learn how to do that basic math. Now that it's ASSUMED you know, there's no harm in using a calculator to do it faster, especially when there's more important math to be done.

Next time a student ask you that, ask her if NASA really needs all those damn computers.

You could always have responded with "I have to make room for real knowledge in my brain, so I leave the number crunching to tools, such as calculators and yourself."

Oooooooo.

Adammon said:

You could always have responded with "I have to make room for real knowledge in my brain, so I leave the number crunching to tools, such as calculators and yourself."

Click to expand...

That's actually pretty on the nose. One theory on how writing developed (different, but related) is that it allows us to remember other things that we would otherwise have to spend time and energy remembering. The same could be said for calculators and Wikipedia.

Oops, I think I crossed the pretentious line...

There's a Ph.D. Comics issue (or was it xkcd?) showing a plot of simple math knowledge going down as advanced math knowledge goes up.

heh. My parents don't mind me using a calculator since they use it too. They taught me that as long I know HOW the math part works, using a calculator is ok.

Now, if you don't know the math portion work, they made me learn it first THEN I can use the calculator.

This reminds me of a co-worker who is working on Geometry. She insist me of giving her the answer. She is using a graphic calculator and wondering why her answer is not displaying properly when her graph display is set to x min = 10, x max = 10, y min = 1 and y max = 1.

I try to show her and explain to her that she needs to set her calculator display first and she gets upset with me when I am trying to teach her that you need to set the display before her formula will show on the calculator (which it doesn't with those coordinate since the answers are in the quad III)

Chibibar said:

(which it doesn't with those coordinate since the answers are in the quad III)

Click to expand...

Plus the range she's looking at is a point.

Using a calculator is only pretentious if you are using a slide rule, like me. :smug:

Gusto;442831][QUOTE=Chibibar said:

(which it doesn't with those coordinate since the answers are in the quad III)

Click to expand...

Plus the range she's looking at is a point.[/QUOTE]

Yea. I was trying to explain that to her, but she wouldn't listen and keep telling me to fix her calculator. I told her I can't do that (I am the building IT) since she won't learn anything from it.

I like to believe that on some forum, somewhere on the internet, a female student has started the topic:

I hate the innumeracy of teachers...

I'm not saying that would be accurate either, but I still like to believe.

When I was taking a class on operational logistics a student asked if we could use our texts for the final. The professor responded, "Hell no! You think you'll be able to use a book in the real world when you are on the job?"

The student laughed and responded, "Yes, in fact I do. They call it a manual and most jobs have them."

We didn't use the book on the test but the student won that round.

I don't let my students use the book in statistics but mostly because I want them to study the material and not spend the exam time flipping through the book. I let them use an index card with notes on it, though. It forces them to study at least once before the exam without requiring them to memorize complex formulae.

MindDetective said:

I don't let my students use the book in statistics but mostly because I want them to study the material and not spend the exam time flipping through the book. I let them use an index card with notes on it, though. It forces them to study at least once before the exam without requiring them to memorize complex formulae.

Click to expand...

My prof allows us to use a single note card (4x6) with as many info you can write on it.

Huh. We actually have lessons revolving around appropriate calculator use in elementary schools. Your students obviously didn't pay attention as children. Although when I was a kid I remember having them batted out of my hand up until pre-algebra.

I don't allow open note usage for my graduate level classes, but I do allow them to bring 2 pages of front and back notes. My thought is that they're forced to distill the knowledge down enough to fit on the allotted space. The only way to do that is to understand it. If it's reference material that will exist as such in the real world (like the manual), that's one thing. But relying on the manual is another entirely.

fade said:

I don't allow open note usage for my graduate level classes, but I do allow them to bring 2 pages of front and back notes. My thought is that they're forced to distill the knowledge down enough to fit on the allotted space. The only way to do that is to understand it. If it's reference material that will exist as such in the real world (like the manual), that's one thing. But relying on the manual is another entirely.

Click to expand...

You said it

Jiarn said:

Society has allowed 21 Seasons of Survivor.

Society isn't just dumb, it's down right brain dead.

Click to expand...

I don't want to derail the thread but I have to make the "and so many good shows get canceled" statement.

I know the calculator is a tool but I like the challenge of working out the math in my head. When I'm counting a cash deposit or float or something, I always use the calculator to double-check ('cause hey, why fuck up when it's there) but I do it initially in my head. I occasionally chastise people for using the calculator on simple math, but I know I can be kind of an elitist jackass sometimes... And I'm okay with that.

Yeah I hate using calculators for really simple math. However sometimes when I am on a roll doing problems with a calculator I will get half way through punching in something simple like times 10 and will feel like a dumbass for even starting to punch it in.

As for calculators in school I wasnt allowed to use one til I think 8th grade and it took me almost til the end of high school to get use to the idea that I could use one.

Chad Sexington said:

I know the calculator is a tool but I like the challenge of working out the math in my head. When I'm counting a cash deposit or float or something, I always use the calculator to double-check ('cause hey, why fuck up when it's there) but I do it initially in my head. I occasionally chastise people for using the calculator on simple math, but I know I can be kind of an elitist jackass sometimes... And I'm okay with that.

Click to expand...

Ah, exactly what I'm talking about. What I hear you saying is:

"100/10 = 10, I did that all in my head. Boy, I'm smart. I hope people around me think I'm really smart because I know basic mathematics."

grams to moles

Click to expand...

How do you change grams



to moles



?

With a calculator, duh.

Heh, my current FB status is "If drug dealers can convert to metric, why can't everybody?"

Drug dealers... fade likes them.

I have a split mind on this. In Chaz's case, clearly its not an issue how he chooses to do his math, but for students, calculators are a crutch. It can be very very useful to look at an equation and immediately see limits (like if this variable goes to 2/5 then this variable goes to 0.) If you are comfortable with your multiplication tables as well as understanding roughly how logs, exponentials, etc look you can do this easily, but if you have to use a calculator for everything you won't be able to see it.

A more basic example of this would be factoring equations. I can look at a quadratic polynomial and pretty quickly give someone the roots. With a little more practice I can do the complex roots without having to do the quadratic equation. Without the quadratic equation factoring roots isn't something that a calculator helps you do, its more an intuitive level of comfort with numbers.

That's really what's important. That comfort with numbers. And that's why it doesn't matter so much with Chaz. We can assume that his education and work experience up to this point gave him that, but with students you can't assume that, which is why its important for them to not rely on calculators. There is a lot of value in seeing a curve and saying, hmmmmm.....that looks like a natural log (there was a situation at work where someone realized that the curve for something was based on the michaelis-mentin equation, which was a crazy catch because this was not a biological system. Only with his comfort with numbers was he able to catch that similarity.)

Part of my attitude for this came from my Freshman Chemistry professor. He told us in the beginning that we would not be allowed to use calculators on the tests, and that there would be a couple of problems that required us to do some relatively complex math without them (including natural logs, he showed us how to interpolate a rough estimate of the latter pretty quickly), and if we got within 10% we got it right. As he put it, getting within 10% can win you a nobel prize.

So last night I used a calculator to add $56 + $56. I'll go find a corner to sit in now.

If you're teaching chemistry why the fuck should you care if the students use a calculator, you should be concerned that they know what calculations they need to do, not that they can calculate the logs and perform division.

My 3 calculus classes I had to take all allowed for the use of a calculator. Reason being? if you didn't know the math in the first place a calculator wouldn't help in the slightest.

Covar said:

If you're teaching chemistry why the fuck should you care if the students use a calculator, you should be concerned that they know what calculations they need to do, not that they can calculate the logs and perform division.

My 3 calculus classes I had to take all allowed for the use of a calculator. Reason being? if you didn't know the math in the first place a calculator wouldn't help in the slightest.

Click to expand...

Chaz is pro-calculator

I'm okay with calculators up to the third trimester.

fade said:

I don't allow open note usage for my graduate level classes, but I do allow them to bring 2 pages of front and back notes. My thought is that they're forced to distill the knowledge down enough to fit on the allotted space. The only way to do that is to understand it. If it's reference material that will exist as such in the real world (like the manual), that's one thing. But relying on the manual is another entirely.

Click to expand...

I had one test in college that I knew I'd need to abuse this rule for, along with several other students in my class. The test was going to online, 100 T/F or multiple choice questions, pulled randomly from a pool of 400 questions. Someone in the class had run through all of the practice quizzes until he had transcribed all the 400 questions into an Excel spreadsheet, listed the correct answer next to it, and sorted all the questions alphabetically.

He then sent that spreadsheet to everyone in the class.

The idea was that on your cheat sheet, 8.5x11", front and back, you could write EVERY SINGLE QUESTION (or at least enough of the question that you could distinguish it from every other question nearby it in alphabetical order) and then write the right answer beside it (A, B, C, D, True, False).

Granted the initial student had to spend about 6 hour preparing all that, and every other student had to spend a few hours individually copying the 400-row spreadsheet in tiny text onto the cheat sheet, but once you'd done that, you'd have an alphabetical index of every possible question and answer.

I can't say it was easier than studying properly, but it's a fun story.

Covar said:

If you're teaching chemistry why the fuck should you care if the students use a calculator, you should be concerned that they know what calculations they need to do, not that they can calculate the logs and perform division.

My 3 calculus classes I had to take all allowed for the use of a calculator. Reason being? if you didn't know the math in the first place a calculator wouldn't help in the slightest.

Click to expand...

That teacher (freshman chem) held us to the standard of having to know both, and I'm glad he did. When you take a class like Thermodynamics it is insanely helpful to understand how logs and exponential curves will look without having to go pull out your graphing calculator. Anyone who has to graph something to get a rough picture of what an increase in entropy/enthalpy/specific heat/ etc. will do to some system shouldn't be in the sciences.

With calculus (or most pure math) it doesn't matter as much because you are working with truly abstract mathematics. It doesn't matter that you can look at the integral of tangent and say, ohhh as x goes to blah then blah goes to blah. Because its abstract, there's no application to a real world system. You would still need that innate comfort with numbers/math for factoring equations and juggling terms to rearrange something into a form you can integrate.

That said, why would someone even need a calculator in a calculus class? I can think of a couple min/max problems that might require one, but really the teacher should be writing questions that don't need them. Seriously though, someone help me. When would you need it? And don't say "to calculate the natural log of 5", because for this kind of math, "ln 5" is a much better answer than "1.609..."

On top of that, most graphing calculators will do derivatives for you these days, which kind of defeats the purpose of a calculus course.

-------------

With regards to the notes, I have to say that the single best (and most difficult) class I ever took had tests that were open book, open note, bring whatever you wanted, and 4 questions long. It was my Physical Chem/Thermo class and my Quantum Mechanics class. Thing is, if you didn't know what you were doing before you walked in to take the test, you would fail. The professor was brilliant, every question had this incredible way of testing if you really understood the science. That doesn't mean you know the equations, that means that you know what the equations mean. He tested true knowledge, and that's something that no amount of notes will teach you in an hour if you don't already know it. I've never taken another class like that since (funny story with that class: I had to ask the professor what the chemical symbol for gold was so I could answer some test question that required molecular weight or some such thing, I knew it was either Au or Ag, I always get it mixed up. He kind of stared at me like I was an idiot for a second and I shrugged my shoulders saying 'hey I get them mixed up'. So he procedded to interrupt the rest of the class that was taking the test and asked them if anyone could help me out. We all laughed. Good times, good times.)

In my graduate classes, like your professor, I don't ask questions to ascertain your store of knowledge. I ask questions that force you to synthesize the store of knowledge and prove that you actually understand it. I do warn the class ahead of time that that will be the case, so it's not a blindside. I often word my test questions in the form of a scenario, or I ask why a certain thing is true (rather than having the student regurgitate the factoid).

I'm trying to remember a couple of his questions, because they were so damned good.

For the Quantum Mechanics class one question asked what an electron was (multiple choice.) The correct answer was "we don't really know." Another had to do with the wave-like motion of objects, and whether it would apply to a baseball. Technically it would, but due to the scale it is effectively a classical system.

For the thermo class he had some question that would have taken an hour or more to calculate, but if you understood the system, it was immediately apparent that the change in internal energy was zero (can't remember why.)