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Ok.. my last one today on "sensitive" news
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-05-06-prayer-day-judge_N.htm?csp=YahooModule_News

I can totally understand where she is coming from. In a way, prayers signify a religious thing (depending on your religion) it is very personal to the person doing the praying.

I was kinda shock at first when the President advise people of U.S. to pray. I went like what about people who don't pray? what if they are Atheist?

I do give many thanks for the freedom I have living in the U.S. I have said in the past that I support our troops for their dedication and the Vets before them. Without the troops, I would not have the freedom today. I give thanks everyday because of their sacrifice. I have what I have today. A security and freedom I don't get from my blood countries (where my ancestors came from) America is unique in many ways and we do have our goods and bad, but at the same time allow to do many things that some country wouldn't allow (like Free speech. you can't have that in China)

While I personally don't support the National Day of Prayers cause that is kinda "guiding/forcing" people to pray who don't pray or give thanks in their own ways. I can go with a Day of giving thanks to our troops. I'll support that

note: While I don't agree with the Wars, that is not the troops' fault. It is the administration fault. That I don't agree with but still support the troops to carry out the orders and do the best they can.

I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, Obama did say "or otherwise give thanks" or something of that nature. His statement would seem to imply more than just Christian prayer.

On the other hand, it does seem inappropriate for the President, as the President, to make any statement at all officially confirming a national prayer mandate of any kind, and the judge was ruling against the original law, not simply Obama's use of it.

I can go with a Day of giving thanks to our troops. I'll support that

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Indeed.

Chibibar said:

what if they are Atheist?

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Then they have two "deities" to chose from...

Christ, what an asshole.

No but seriously, the government really shouldn't endorse any kind of national prayer thing. No one is going to stop anyone from practice their right to pray for whatever they want or whenever they want, but it really just shouldn't be government endorsed or backed.

It's really not that big of a deal.

phil said:

Christ, what an asshole.

No but seriously, the government really shouldn't endorse any kind of national prayer thing. No one is going to stop anyone from practice their right to pray for whatever they want or whenever they want, but it really just shouldn't be government endorsed or backed.

It's really not that big of a deal.

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True, but it is the small steps that sometimes the government take and gradually increase. Look at Taxes. I use to remember that the original Colony get tax on TEA and people got pissed, now we pay taxes on EVERYTHING (well almost everything) that we do.

We earn a pay check - income tax
buy goods - pay tax on that
buy a car/house - pay tax on purchase AND yearly taxes on top of it
etc etc..

I am NOT equating Taxes = Religions but all I'm saying that the government is known to start off small and work their way up (little by little - I figure I have to be more clear on these boards )

We got pissed about being taxed because we didn't get any say in governmental affairs despite being taxed. This isn't a matter of noting being heard, but rather of the government attempting to show favoritism for something it really shouldn't be.

As Ashburner said, I don't think you understand what the Boston Tea Party was about. The protest was that the colonists were being taxed, but did not have representation in Parliament. The protest was that they refused to pay taxes when they have no governmental voice.

We currently have a voice in our government, THAT is why we should be paying taxes.

Bowielee said:

As Ashburner said, I don't think you understand what the Boston Tea Party was about. The protest was that the colonists were being taxed, but did not have representation in Parliament. The protest was that they refused to pay taxes when they have no governmental voice.

We currently have a voice in our government, THAT is why we should be paying taxes.

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Yea, but there are groups today don't want to pay taxes still (I remember being approach by some) and figure out way to really "avoid taxes" legally, but it is pretty complicated.

I am split on the issue. Generally I am not in favor of the Fed's asking us to participate in religious activities.

On the other hand, our separation of church and state holds us from establishing a nationally recognized religion. Or supporting one over the others. This bill asks all religious people to pray. As far as I know all religious people do. There are no penalties, and no forced time off for you to go to the selected church to pray.

There are people who claim that there's no legal enforcement on paying taxes, but it's all just semantics in wording, which don't hold up in court.

Bowielee said:

As Ashburner said, I don't think you understand what the Boston Tea Party was about. The protest was that the colonists were being taxed, but did not have representation in Parliament. The protest was that they refused to pay taxes when they have no governmental voice.

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I always wondered, did it actually start with that slogan or did they work it in once they actually got organized?!

@Li3n;382556][QUOTE=Bowielee said:

As Ashburner said, I don't think you understand what the Boston Tea Party was about. The protest was that the colonists were being taxed, but did not have representation in Parliament. The protest was that they refused to pay taxes when they have no governmental voice.

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I always wondered, did it actually start with that slogan or did they work it in once they actually got organized?![/QUOTE]

Well, they didn't come up with the declaration of independence until well after they started shooting Brits, so it could be either.

The Boston Tea Party was pretty spur of the moment, and it's what really got the movement started. I'd say the slogan came after the party, but I could be wrong.

Bowielee said:

As Ashburner said, I don't think you understand what the Boston Tea Party was about. The protest was that the colonists were being taxed, but did not have representation in Parliament. The protest was that they refused to pay taxes when they have no governmental voice.

We currently have a voice in our government, THAT is why we should be paying taxes.

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Not to mention the cheap-ass, low-tax, government sanctioned tea was cutting into the profits of black market tea...

AshburnerX said:

The Boston Tea Party was pretty spur of the moment, and it's what really got the movement started. I'd say the slogan came after the party, but I could be wrong.

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I don't think they really had a slogan. As protests go, it was kind of ass backwards. They dressed up as native americans, so I don't see how it was really a protest so much as a temper tantrum, seeing as the british just though some natives wrecked up one of their tea shipments.

The important part was that it brought the group that we now know as the founding fathers together.

Bowielee;383174][QUOTE=AshburnerX said:

The Boston Tea Party was pretty spur of the moment, and it's what really got the movement started. I'd say the slogan came after the party, but I could be wrong.

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I don't think they really had a slogan. As protests go, it was kind of ass backwards. They dressed up as native americans, so I don't see how it was really a protest so much as a temper tantrum, seeing as the british just though some natives wrecked up one of their tea shipments.

The important part was that it brought the group that we now know as the founding fathers together.[/QUOTE]

Actually, they dressed up like Natives so no one would recognize them afterward, meaning they wouldn't get arrested by the very same local British Authorities that they were protesting. It's sort of like why some Anonymous members wear Guy Fawkes masks and such at their Scientology Protests: It's as much to protect their identity to prevent reprisals as it is to show a unified front.

The Founding Fathers: Destroying Tea for teh lulz!

you know.....I think this is the first time I will say this about this issue.....

But people need to get over it. The government should definitely pay attention to the establishment clause and how that may implicitly define a penultimate seperation of church and state. There should never be any mandated prayer of any kind in schools or wherever. That said I don't think an incredibly vague request for people to "pray, or otherwise give thanks" qualifies against that.

Its weird that I am saying this, because I just heard a story about the WW1 memorial that was a cross on federal land, and I remember thinking that that does clearly break the establishment clause as you are preferentially identifying with a specific relgion. In this case however the divide is between atheists and everyone else. Now I don't think that atheists shouldn't get their day in court as well, but I don't think that this situation is the same.

I dunno. I think that there are people out there that think that are doing this just as a matter of showing how clever they are. Kind of like that one douchebag kid in the class that sits in the front row and constantly asks questions to make himself look smarter and everyone, including the teacher, hates him because all he does is slow down the real education going on in the class. Which is the situation here. There are many many many many more issues that have real weight.

The relgious freedom fight is a waste of effort at this point. You got 90% of the way there, now go fight for something that we are only 20% of the way on.

It's almost like you are saying... go do something that helps people... what an interesting concept.

Really what I am saying is "this doesn't matter anymore. Go do something that matters."

Necronic said:

Really what I am saying is "this doesn't matter anymore. Go do something that matters."

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Those african kids won't get fed if I don't stop the national day of prayer though.

I think the main issue originally was just "prayers" Obama LATER add "or gives thanks" after getting some heat from the prayers only part.