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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/ ... 1210.shtml

This is interesting story. I knew this was going to happen sooner or later with "auto deletion" from the company side.

I can understand where the guy is coming from. After reading and making tons of notes, it would suck if it was deleted from his kindle. He did buy it from the Amazon store.

What do y'all think?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

He didn't back up his notes, so it's his own fault that he lost them. That's why I copy my photos to cd to back them up in case something happens to the hard disk.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

true, but kindle did delete his book from his kindle. I remember reading the Apple thread about redownloading and one segment mention on kindle deleting the books but allow 3 downloads (redownload I guess) but in this case, the book was remove totally.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Sounds like the notes are still there, but they don't have a book to reference anymore. Kinda like highlighting stuff in a book and putting sticky notes in with thoughts on the passages highlighted. Take the book away and leave the sticky notes and they don't really make sense.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Yeah, until I have complete control over a product like this Amazon can keep it.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

rac3r_x said:

Yeah, until I have complete control over a product like this Amazon can keep it.

Click to expand...

depending on how the lawsuit turn out....... that might change (one of the snippet of the article states challenge the company's right to delete stuff you BOUGHT on your kindle)

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Yeah, until I have complete control over a product like this Amazon can keep it.

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This.

Heck I dont want any sob deleting something I bought and am reading, without telling me, nor asking my permission.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

[quote=''Article"]
Gawronski told The Associated Press he was assigned "1984" for an advanced placement course in which students must turn in "reflections" on each 100 pages of text when they return from summer break, then take a test. He was a quarter to halfway through the book when it disappeared from his Kindle.

His notes on the book were "rendered useless because they no longer referenced the relevant parts of the book," according to the lawsuit.[/quote]

...what? Since when does removing a book from a bookcase render referencing notes useless? Hello, pagenumbers/citations?

Also, are all libraries in the USA closed or what?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Wahad said:

Gawronski told The Associated Press he was assigned "1984" for an advanced placement course in which students must turn in "reflections" on each 100 pages of text when they return from summer break, then take a test. He was a quarter to halfway through the book when it disappeared from his Kindle.

His notes on the book were "rendered useless because they no longer referenced the relevant parts of the book," according to the lawsuit....

Click to expand...

what? Since when does removing a book from a bookcase render referencing notes useless? Hello, pagenumbers/citations?

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Since when are people that naive to assume that a book printed in countless editions by countless publishers will have the same page count, and every word exactly in the same place as in another edition, to make the usage of pagenumbers/citations?

Especially when its a student with a deadline who got ripped off by Amazon?

Also, are all libraries in the USA closed or what?

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Also, are people so dumb to blame a student for buying a book through Amazon, and now expect him to now re-do all the references to fit the version at the local library, and waste his time, because of Amazon?

Really, have the Amazon apologists run out of excuses that bad that now the student is at fault and every edition of a classic book has exactly the same layout?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Does anybody else find the books which were deleted ironic?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

I'm not blaming him for buying an Amazon book, but really, it seemed like a stupid reason to sue when libraries easily have a spare edition available. Furthermore, if it was an assignment, wouldn't other students have the book as well?

I'll give you the pagenumbers - that was my mistake. But even if a bunch of words aren't in the same order, it really doesn't seem that much of a problem if you have, say, quoted a sentence or two. It's not like another edition will be that radically changed unless it's a reinterpretation by a different author.

Again, I'm not defending Amazon here - I think it's stupid they went ahead and deleted all those books without notice - but it seems too little a problem for me to sue over.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

chakz said:

Does anybody else find the books which were deleted ironic?

Click to expand...

No, I'm sure you're the first and only.

-- Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:26 pm --

Wahad, it's the US. Suing is the only way :3

Furthermore, I'm guessing this is probably the easiest way to get them to give up their ability to delete user's purchased stuff.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

There is really no case here. Yes, it is terrible that Amazon had to cover their ass by erasing a book that they did not realize at the time was an illegal copy. It is inconvenient to start a book over. Amazon may have wasted two to three hours of this kids time, since the kid did not finish but 1/4 of the story. What is 2-3 hours of a 17 year old's time worth? $15.

There is no big deal here. The book was ill gotten gains, and all the users received full refunds.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

I've said it before, technically, I don't find much fault in what Amazon did. They had to remove pirated copies from their service. They did so, and reimbursed the customers for their money.

The only dick move on their part was not informing people ahead of time. If they could refund the money, they obviously could have sent out an e-mail saying that they are discontinuing the edition and have to recall it due to the fact that it was a pirated copy.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Denbrought said:

chakz said:

Does anybody else find the books which were deleted ironic?

Click to expand...

No, I'm sure you're the first and only.

Click to expand...

:tear:

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

On a more relevent note, its interesting that with all the other devices out there which rely on downloadable content (Iphone, psp, etc.) Its interesting that amazon was the first to pull this kind of crap(unless I'm mistaken). I could see sony trying something like this, but I guess its probably easier with books.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

I don't think actual case of Amazon mess with this kid's assignment (it is part of evidence I'm guessing) I'm thinking the lawyer is going (I hope) two part on this.

1. Amazon should send out notification before deleting books from user's kindle since all of them legitimently purchase them (regardless if Amazon got it illegally)
2. Hopefully prevent Amazon from actually deleting item FROM user's kindle for any reason. I personally believe that all deleting should be user's choice not Amazon. It would be like iTunes start deleting your music from your HDD and iPods cause the original songwriter pulled their record off iTunes but you already purchase it, download it, and back it up (per our discussion from other thread)

-- Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:54 pm --

I don't think actual case of Amazon mess with this kid's assignment (it is part of evidence I'm guessing) I'm thinking the lawyer is going (I hope) two part on this.

1. Amazon should send out notification before deleting books from user's kindle since all of them legitimently purchase them (regardless if Amazon got it illegally)
2. Hopefully prevent Amazon from actually deleting item FROM user's kindle for any reason. I personally believe that all deleting should be user's choice not Amazon. It would be like iTunes start deleting your music from your HDD and iPods cause the original songwriter pulled their record off iTunes but you already purchase it, download it, and back it up (per our discussion from other thread)

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

sixpackshaker said:

There is really no case here. Yes, it is terrible that Amazon had to cover their ass by erasing a book that they did not realize at the time was an illegal copy. It is inconvenient to start a book over. Amazon may have wasted two to three hours of this kids time, since the kid did not finish but 1/4 of the story. What is 2-3 hours of a 17 year old's time worth? $15.

There is no big deal here. The book was ill gotten gains, and all the users received full refunds.

Click to expand...

Thats where I must disagree, lets not forget that it was removed without notice.

Its akin to selling you a car, and then take it back silently at night, what the hell, you got a refund, right, but cant they at least INFORM you?

1. Amazon should send out notification before deleting books from user's kindle since all of them legitimently purchase them (regardless if Amazon got it illegally)
2. Hopefully prevent Amazon from actually deleting item FROM user's kindle for any reason. I personally believe that all deleting should be user's choice not Amazon. It would be like iTunes start deleting your music from your HDD and iPods cause the original songwriter pulled their record off iTunes but you already purchase it, download it, and back it up (per our discussion from other thread)

Click to expand...

While number 2 might give a legal headache, amen on number 1.

Nobody is compaining it deeted the book, but they deleted it WITHOUT informing the user.

Again, I'm not defending Amazon here - I think it's stupid they went ahead and deleted all those books without notice - but it seems too little a problem for me to sue over.

Click to expand...

This and this. I also think its stupid

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

JCM said:

Its akin to selling you a car, and then take it back silently at night, what the *, you got a refund, right, but cant they at least INFORM you?

Click to expand...

It's akin to buying a stolen car and then QQing when the police show up to confiscate it. Amazon fucked up, they apologized and issued refunds. Is another topic about this really necessary?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

HowDroll said:

JCM said:

Its akin to selling you a car, and then take it back silently at night, what the *, you got a refund, right, but cant they at least INFORM you?

Click to expand...

It's akin to buying a stolen car and then QQing when the police show up to confiscate it. Amazon fucked up, they apologized and issued refunds. Is another topic about this really necessary?

Click to expand...

Amazon != police force

The police would show up, not the car dealership people. And they wouldn't bust open your garage to take it, but inform you and then make you hand it over. Big big differences all around.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

HowDroll said:

Is another topic about this really necessary?

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I had almost started to forget how unbelievably entitled, litigious, and money-grubbing are the citizens of this country, so that was a good reminder.

Otherwise........

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

sixpackshaker said:

There is no big deal here. The book was ill gotten gains, and all the users received full refunds.

Click to expand...

It's closer to a manufacturer in China making duplicate iPhones (exact duplicates, software, hardware, the whole nine yards) and sneaking them into the US and selling them.

Apple has the right to seize all UNSOLD inventory, and it has the right to sue the manufacturer, shipper, seller, etc.

But, in the US, they DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO RECOVER SOLD iPhones, illegitimate though they may be, from consumers who purchased them. They have the right to deny them service, warranty, etc, and they could offer a 'trade in' program and charge the costs to the original infringer, but if someone doesn't want to give up their fake iPhone, they are under no legal obligation to do so, and Apple does not have the right to force them to do so.

It's NOT like the police recovering stolen and sold property - there is no original owner that wants the stolen property back. These are fakes, duplicates, etc, but they fall under a completely different law than 'stolen' property - they are infringing products, and follow the rules of copyright (and in the case of iPhone patent, trademark) law.

The same thing happened each time a new Harry Potter book came out. It was copied and resold cheaply. They can recover unsold inventory, get the money from the people who originally sold the bad merchandise, but they can't search the receipts and force each person that bought one to give it up.

So yes, this is a BIG problem, and Amazon was not only stupid, but they did the wrong thing.

However, depending on their user terms of service, licensing, etc, they may have been within their rights to do so, although certain rights of US citizens cannot be taken away even if they sign a form giving them up.

This case will set the stage for future cases, and it's a big deal because the world is becoming increasingly networked. It has very wide ranging implications, from GPS navigation systems to pacemakers, cell phones to security systems.

-Adam

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Is there any chance this kid is doing this not for his own gains, but to set a legal precedent on this sort of case? Or is he just a whiny, litigious douchebag? I honestly can't tell.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

It's so easy to just say lawsuits are for silly people and we can trust companies when they say they won't fuck us.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Cat said:

It's so easy to just say lawsuits are for silly people and we can trust companies when they say they won't fuck us.

Click to expand...

You're right. Let's talk about this specific lawsuit and this specific incident instead, shall we?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

That's crazy talk! We should extrapolate this event to its extremes on both sides, employ slippery slope, invoke add hominahominahominamin, etc.

Otherwise it's just another boring discussion.

-Adam

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Lally said:

Is there any chance this kid is doing this not for his own gains, but to set a legal precedent on this sort of case? Or is he just a whiny, litigious douchebag? I honestly can't tell.

Click to expand...

Would his motivations make any difference?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

stienman said:

That's crazy talk! We should extrapolate this event to its extremes on both sides, employ slippery slope, invoke add hominahominahominamin, etc.

Click to expand...

To be fair I did generalize about Americans up there, but that was exaggeration for effect. This particular case does seem idiotic; I'm sure some drooling ambulance chaser decided to convince the kid that he's an important example or some such crap.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Viggs said:

Lally said:

Is there any chance this kid is doing this not for his own gains, but to set a legal precedent on this sort of case? Or is he just a whiny, litigious douchebag? I honestly can't tell.

Click to expand...

Would his motivations make any difference?

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In what sense? Legally, which I guess is what you're getting at, of course not. In determining whether he's a douchebag, which is what I was asking? Yeah, motivation's important.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

let me your.... kindle?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

I bet the kid dowloaded illegal music and movies. Check his hard drive! Nobody messes with the great and powerful Amazon.com. Nobody.

:angry:

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Denbrought said:

HowDroll said:

JCM said:

Its akin to selling you a car, and then take it back silently at night, what the *, you got a refund, right, but cant they at least INFORM you?

Click to expand...

It's akin to buying a stolen car and then QQing when the police show up to confiscate it. Amazon fucked up, they apologized and issued refunds. Is another topic about this really necessary?

Click to expand...

Amazon != police force

The police would show up, not the car dealership people. And they wouldn't bust open your garage to take it, but inform you and then make you hand it over. Big big differences all around.

Click to expand...

Yep.

But it seems that Amazon lovers are rather blind and think someone taking your shit without telling you is correct, so who are we to change their minds?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

JCM said:

Denbrought said:

HowDroll said:

JCM said:

Its akin to selling you a car, and then take it back silently at night, what the *, you got a refund, right, but cant they at least INFORM you?

Click to expand...

It's akin to buying a stolen car and then QQing when the police show up to confiscate it. Amazon smurfed up, they apologized and issued refunds. Is another topic about this really necessary?

Click to expand...

Amazon != police force

The police would show up, not the car dealership people. And they wouldn't bust open your garage to take it, but inform you and then make you hand it over. Big big differences all around.

Click to expand...

Yep.

But it seems that Amazon lovers are rather blind and think someone taking your poop without telling you is correct, so who are we to change their minds?

Click to expand...

It is in their EULA that they can do this. So, the whole car reposession metaphor is false to begin with.

Was it a smart move on Amazon's part? No

Was it kind of assholish on their part to do this with out informing people first? You bet your ass.

Was it within their rights as a company? Yup, it certainly was.

Again, I maintain that while it was incredibly stupid for them to do it without giving notice to the customers first, the fact that they did refund the money to the customers does show at least some goodwill on the part of the company. I still see nothing malicious in what they did.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Bowielee said:

JCM said:

Denbrought said:

HowDroll said:

It's akin to buying a stolen car and then QQing when the police show up to confiscate it. Amazon smurfed up, they apologized and issued refunds. Is another topic about this really necessary?

Click to expand...

Amazon != police force

The police would show up, not the car dealership people. And they wouldn't bust open your garage to take it, but inform you and then make you hand it over. Big big differences all around.

Click to expand...

Yep.

But it seems that Amazon lovers are rather blind and think someone taking your poop without telling you is correct, so who are we to change their minds?

Click to expand...

It is in their EULA that they can do this. So, the whole car reposession metaphor is false to begin with.

Click to expand...

Really? How do you know there inst a car repossion with such a dickish policy? Oh wait, thts because people who buy cars wont put with with such blatant abuse consumers rights.

So you got a point there.

Bowielee said:

Was it a smart move on Amazon's part? No

Was it kind of assholish on their part to do this with out informing people first? You bet your ass.

Was it within their rights as a company? Yup, it certainly was.

Again, I maintain that while it was incredibly stupid for them to do it without giving notice to the customers first, the fact that they did refund the money to the customers does show at least some goodwill on the part of the company. I still see nothing malicious in what they did.

Click to expand...

This is exactly why companies will get away with more and more, with idiots who think theres nothing wrong with a company deleting stuff that you bought from your computer/Kindle.

They apologized.

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Because idiots have short memories, it has done this more than once.

But hey, since you are sucking up and saying its god that they can delete stuff at will from your hardware, like the time they left Blind users who bought speech-enabled books only to have the speech function deleted, its not me who is bending over, but you, renting books on the Kindle, as they are never yours.

Hurray for the day when sheep let companies turn "buy a book" to "rent a book, but we can take it back anytime".

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Again, my question is this. What exactly did the people this was effected lose? Amazon has refunded them the purchase price for the books, so they can very easily buy the book again in a legal format.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Oh, running away from the blind users left with no text-to-speech now, are we? Guess its better to make a stupid rhetorical question, than defend Amazon. Of course they lost nothing, after all, if I fuck your ass, or record you in the bathroom, you havent lost anything.

On your EULA BS, more bullshit. From Boing Boing, Amazon isnt pretty good at telling what you can do, and what they can do-

http://boingboing.net/2009/07/23/jeff-bezoss-kindle-a.html
Amazon won't even tell publishers, writers, or readers what kinds of mischief the Kindle can do -- in the months since its release, we've learned that Amazon will shut off your Kindle account for returning physical purchases if it doesn't think you're sincere; we've learned that Amazon can remotely delete files from your Kindle; we've learned that Amazon has a secret deal with some publishers to limit the number of times you can download Kindle books; we've learned that Amazon can selectively switch off features on books after you buy them, such as the text-to-speech feature.

Further, Amazon won't say what else is lurking in the Kindle. Specifically, they won't say:
* Whether the Kindle EULA or other terms forbid moving Kindle's \"DRM-free\" books to competing devices
* Whether there is a patent or other encumbrance that would make it illegal to build a competing device that can read or convert the \"DRM-free\" files
* What after-purchase control Amazon can exercise on \"DRM-free\" files: can they be remotely deleted? Can they have features revoked?
This is basic stuff: if you're going to sell a product, you should tell the purchaser what she's getting. It's not a radical proposition, and the fact that Amazon, with its stellar, customer-oriented real-goods business won't disclose these basic facts shocks me silly.

Click to expand...

So BowieLee, again, while youre for being spineless, some of us do consider our own rights, my opinion is akin to that of David Pogue at the New York Times
"Already, we've learned that [e-books] are not really like books," he writes, "in that once we're finished reading them, we can't resell or even donate them. But now we learn that all sales may not even be final."

But since your only defense is a rhetorical question, please, do answer me if I rape your arse or record you in the shower, what will you lose?

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

OK, I'm done. JCM's back to ad hominem personal attacks.

Equating this to rape is both in poor taste and terrible argument.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

You were out the second you ran away from-
-talking from Amazon deleting text-to-speech and leaving blind users fucked
-lying about their EULA, which does not clearly state what Amazon can do
-explaining how in any way is taking away something you bought any good?

Ad-homins? I just made a rethorical question.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Bowielee said:

Again, my question is this. What exactly did the people this was effected lose? Amazon has refunded them the purchase price for the books, so they can very easily buy the book again in a legal format.

Click to expand...

The way I see this, amazon reached into their bag and took their books. Allowing this practice will encourage other companies to do even more to restrict and control the consumer.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

JCM said:

You were out the second you ran away from-
-talking from Amazon deleting text-to-speech and leaving blind users smurfed
-lying about their EULA, which does not clearly state what Amazon can do
-explaining how in any way is taking away something you bought any good?

Ad-homins? I just made a rethorical question.

Click to expand...

A few points. I've said nothing about the text to speech thing. I have no idea where you're getting that from. As usual you're reading things into my post that were never there to begin with.

Point 2 I don't own a kindle, and have only purchased only a few things from amazon, so I have no vested interest in defending them as a company. I'm just being a rational human being who doesn't have a knee jerk reaction to everyting.

And again, they didn't take away anything. They returned the purchase price of the book so the customer LOST NOTHING.

But you go ahead and be a douchnozzle for no other reason that you can't form a logical response and have to resort to acting like a monkey throwing feces at the zoo.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Bowielee said:

Equating this to rape is both in poor taste and terrible argument.

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Bowielee said:

JCM said:

You were out the second you ran away from-
-talking from Amazon deleting text-to-speech and leaving blind users smurfed
-lying about their EULA, which does not clearly state what Amazon can do
-explaining how in any way is taking away something you bought any good?

Ad-homins? I just made a rethorical question.

Click to expand...

A few points. I've said nothing about the text to speech thing. I have no idea where you're getting that from.

Click to expand...

You said it was okay to delete books, so it must be ok to delete speech as well, right? Maybe if you'd stop lying, making up BS "its in their EULA" and using stupid rhetorical questions, abuse of consumer rights IS abuse of consumer's right.

A shitty question to avoid the issue begets a shitty question because if I fuck you in the arse, tape you in the shower, you havent lost anything, but it seems you are implying its okay to do so.

Feel free to continue playing the victim, after all if you must resort to bullshitting about their EULA and running away to stupid rethorical questions, theres not much an Amazon lover can do. Again, how can any company be allowed to-
-delete functions at will, leaving blind users without text-to-speech?
-invade your privacy, take back your book from your bookshelf (thats what their marketing says, your book, your bookshelf)?
-not tell you they are doing so?
-turn off Kindles that have bought more than a certain number of ebooks (which is known only to them)?
-oh, and if I tape you showering, what do you lose? Nothing! So it must be ok!

But do feel free to play victim, after all its easier to cry Wolf than it is to say "I was wrong and I dont know squat about the EULA"

Cat said:

The way I see this, amazon reached into their bag and took their books. Allowing this practice will encourage other companies to do even more to restrict and control the consumer.

Click to expand...

Pretty much this.

BowieLee said:

And again, they didn't take away anything. They returned the purchase price of the book so the customer LOST NOTHING.

Click to expand...

They took away the book. According to their store marketing, "your book", from "your bookshelf", without your permission. They have also taken away your bookshekf (turning off forcibly Kindles). They have also taken away that kindly old man that used to read the books to the blind (the text-too-speech function), but hey, if I raped you, or taped you showering, you wouldnt lose anything, so if I started taking back everything you bought, without your permission, it would be ok, right BowieLee?

My apologies, but Amazon has much dickery under its belt, all because some, like you, are okay with companies ignoring consumers rights.

It sells books saying its "your book" for "your bookshelf". Then it uses a vague EULA to take away stuff, remove functions, turn off Kindles under certain strange limits thats never told, and why? Because some people are fine with anything done to them, as long as they dont lose money.

Now excuse me, I'll be installing cameras in people's showers, since they lose nothing, it must be ok.

Kindle Users!!! let me your..... kindle?

Bowielee said:

Again, my question is this. What exactly did the people this was effected lose? Amazon has refunded them the purchase price for the books, so they can very easily buy the book again in a legal format.

Click to expand...

I think it sets precedent toward other company.

The world is pretty much network it now. We have our iPhone, iPods, GPS, wireless devices and slew of information at our finger tip. So... the big question would be would it be alright for any services to go into YOUR devices and delete stuff just cause?

Couple of example in the future.

1. DVR - this is a VERY powerful tool. I use it a lot and love it. I set my unit to record tons of shows, but what if the provider signs a contract with a show that do NOT allow recording (DVR wise) and have to set auto delete on YOUR DVR. Would they have to do a refund? You did get it from a service, but if there is a change in contract and slip it in..... corporation might do that to get more people to VIEW commercials and time slot. What if the cable company give credit for the item deleted?

2. Apple - If you purchase tons of music legally BUT the artist decides to drop contract with Apple and don't want to sell their music vis iTunes anymore, does Apple have the right to delete ALL related music to that artist? what if they refund you the cost for each music 99cent per song?

3. Worst case scenario - what if a book was "banned" from a reading list. Can the provider (in this case Amazon) delete a legal book obtain legally, purchase legally but was on the "reading ban" list. Can they delete that? and just refund you the money? What if you didn't finish the book? what if a hard copy is hard to obtain?

I think this case is setting future legal limits of what a corporation can do and cannot do electronically to stuff that YOU legally own and purchase.