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I know next to nothing about getting my system set-up for liquid cooling. Why bother? Cause I'd like to overclock my I7 940 and I'd like to get a second GTX 295 card.

Now, I have someone that will "put it together", I just need to "get everything" first. From the little I know, I'm going to need a specific type of TOWER CASE, RADIATOR, TUBING, and BLOCKS. Though all that sounds pretty alien to me as I don't know "brands" or what type of material is "quality" etc. I know that going cheap will end up costing me more in the event of a leak, so I'd like to go "solid" but not "ridiculous" and break my bank.

Any and all advice is appreciated.

Water Cooling. Where do I begin?

Before you spend the dough, are the temps you looking at going to be that much above what air cooling will be able to handle?

Water Cooling. Where do I begin?

DarkAudit said:

Before you spend the dough, are the temps you looking at going to be that much above what air cooling will be able to handle?

Click to expand...

At the moment I'm running on an air system that isn't exactly "the best", and I'm not so worried about the temp from OCing the I7 as I hear they run at good temps even at 3.5ghz and beyond, but it's the two GTX 295 running quad SLI that I want to go liquid for.

Water Cooling. Where do I begin?

Shegokigo said:

DarkAudit said:

Before you spend the dough, are the temps you looking at going to be that much above what air cooling will be able to handle?

Click to expand...

At the moment I'm running on an air system that isn't exactly "the best", and I'm not so worried about the temp from OCing the I7 as I hear they run at good temps even at 3.5ghz and beyond, but it's the two GTX 295 running quad SLI that I want to go liquid for.

Click to expand...

i7 with TWO GTX 295??

man.. I got i7 2.3GHZ (I think I have to check when I get home) with only 1 GTX 295.. I'm jealous.

Well the problem with my I7 is that it's great and all but at 2.93ghz, it leaves a bit to be desired.

The second GTX is just to overkill my games so that I get even less studder.

Shegokigo said:

Well the problem with my I7 is that it's great and all but at 2.93ghz, it leaves a bit to be desired.

The second GTX is just to overkill my games so that I get even less studder.

Click to expand...

you just wanna frag me x3 than just x2 huh?

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Swiftech-Koolance-Zalman,2040.html

Here's an article on pre-built cooling systems and one they put together themselves. If you put it together yourself, expect to do some work on your case to get it to all fit right.

Isn't a liquid cooling system for a processor essentially just a beefed up heat sink?

I would much rather take a "pre-built" system with a warranty than piece it together over here with my personal tech.

Chazwozel said:

Isn't a liquid cooling system for a processor essentially just a beefed up heat sink?

Click to expand...

Not really. Water cooling has a radiator and pump that pumps coolant through a block that sits on your CPU.

Shegokigo said:

I would much rather take a "pre-built" system with a warranty than piece it together over here with my personal tech.

Click to expand...

Well what I mean is that the system is one big unit that goes on top of where your processor heat sink is. Instead of air dissipating the heat, it's carried away by water to the radiator at the back of your case. I don't see why you'd need a special case for it. You can easily use a dremel tool to bore holes and "fit" the radiator and pump into your existing case. I guess it's a cost factor on your part. 50 bucks for a dremel or finding a cheap "cooler" case.

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:30 am --

Shakey said:

Chazwozel said:

Isn't a liquid cooling system for a processor essentially just a beefed up heat sink?

Click to expand...

Not really. Water cooling has a radiator and pump that pumps coolant through a block that sits on your CPU.

Click to expand...

^ yeah what I said.

Beefed up heat sink.

Chazwozel said:

Isn't a liquid cooling system for a processor essentially just a beefed up heat sink?

Click to expand...

Think of it as a radiator for you PC. You just don't want your key component to overheat. You can liquid cool video cards too. Generally CPU and video cards can heat up PRETTY fast and hot which can damage the unit.

Generally standard air cooling (when done right) can keep most stuff cool + heatsink, but when you overclock it, it just get extra hot (if I use that term correctly) which you would need additional cooling or your component will fry big time.

Shego: I pay extra. I went Alienware

Not everybody is comfortable using a dremel to cut up their case. Also these cases are built by people that know more about it than the average joe with a dremel, so they can usually get better airflow through the case. If you aren't comfortable cutting up a case, go prebuilt.

I believe I have bought from these guys before, performance-pcs.com, but can't remember. They have a pretty good selection anyway.

Hahahahahah, enjoy that, Sheg.

Shannow said:

Hahahahahah, enjoy that, Sheg.

Click to expand...

:bush:

If you are going prebuilt..its easy, especially if you arent even building it. buy a tower, and the blocks for your specific components. Give to person doing build. Pay your money. Done. Going to cost you a bit, but thats your perogitive.

Are you looking to OC the CPU, too? Because you may be able to just get away with putting the dual 295s on liquid and keeping everything else on air. I'm sure the majority of heat generated in your case would be coming from the 295s anyway. The i7 already self-overclocks up to 3.33GHz if you aren't using more than 2 cores (and 3.06GHz if you use more than 2).

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

Are you looking to OC the CPU, too? Because you may be able to just get away with putting the dual 295s on liquid and keeping everything else on air. I'm sure the majority of heat generated in your case would be coming from the 295s anyway. The i7 already self-overclocks up to 3.33GHz if you aren't using more than 2 cores (and 3.06GHz if you use more than 2).

--Patrick

Click to expand...

What he said.

Anyway, do the GTX 295s really put out that much heat? It might be worth it to just upgrade the existing air cooling setup.

SLI/CrossFire really do not scale very well, in terms of performance, power consumption and heat output.
I honestly think that you would be better served to wait a few more months and get the fastest single-card you can.

PatrThom said:

Are you looking to OC the CPU, too? Because you may be able to just get away with putting the dual 295s on liquid and keeping everything else on air. I'm sure the majority of heat generated in your case would be coming from the 295s anyway. The i7 already self-overclocks up to 3.33GHz if you aren't using more than 2 cores (and 3.06GHz if you use more than 2).

--Patrick

Click to expand...

Self overclocks? Tell me more.

Also, if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Shegokigo said:

PatrThom said:

Are you looking to OC the CPU, too? Because you may be able to just get away with putting the dual 295s on liquid and keeping everything else on air. I'm sure the majority of heat generated in your case would be coming from the 295s anyway. The i7 already self-overclocks up to 3.33GHz if you aren't using more than 2 cores (and 3.06GHz if you use more than 2).

--Patrick

Click to expand...

Self overclocks? Tell me more.

Also, if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Click to expand...

It is the Turbo mode that should be enabled in the BIOS by default. It overclocks one-two cores when it detects a single-threaded application.

As to the watercooling, just using it on part of the system will reduce the likelihood of disaster.

Shegokigo said:

if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Click to expand...

Because it takes another 9 yards of tubing, each cooled item adds at least two more tubing joints that can leak, and you either need to increase the size of the radiator for each item, or live with a higher temperature for all your items. The additional tubing creates airflow problems inside the case. Etc, etc, etc.

But it doesn't matter, since you haven't given the reason for the liquid cooling then we can't judge when you might want to follow a particular path. Air cooling is adequate for most overclocking, and the gain in any overclocking that requires liquid cooling is marginal compared to the initial gain done from air cooling.

Personally, since you already have everything but the liquid cooling setup, I'd suggest overclocking it as-is while monitoring the temperatures and seeing if it's necessary. If you need more cooling, I'd look at additional case fans with appropriate cross flowing ventilation before taking the leap to liquid cooling.

Liquid cooling does have some advantages, and does allow some slight performance gain beyond good air cooling, but it's so much more expensive and difficult to maintain correctly that it's almost never worth it. It's the audiophile equivalent of Monster Cables. Slightly better, maybe, significantly more costly, always.

But if you're really at the bleeding edge, maybe that extra 1% performance increase is worth the extra cost and maintenance...

-Adam

stienman said:

Shegokigo said:

if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Click to expand...

Because it takes another 9 yards of tubing, each cooled item adds at least two more tubing joints that can leak, and you either need to increase the size of the radiator for each item, or live with a higher temperature for all your items. The additional tubing creates airflow problems inside the case. Etc, etc, etc.

But it doesn't matter, since you haven't given the reason for the liquid cooling then we can't judge when you might want to follow a particular path. Air cooling is adequate for most overclocking, and the gain in any overclocking that requires liquid cooling is marginal compared to the initial gain done from air cooling.

Personally, since you already have everything but the liquid cooling setup, I'd suggest overclocking it as-is while monitoring the temperatures and seeing if it's necessary. If you need more cooling, I'd look at additional case fans with appropriate cross flowing ventilation before taking the leap to liquid cooling.

Liquid cooling does have some advantages, and does allow some slight performance gain beyond good air cooling, but it's so much more expensive and difficult to maintain correctly that it's almost never worth it. It's the audiophile equivalent of Monster Cables. Slightly better, maybe, significantly more costly, always.

But if you're really at the bleeding edge, maybe that extra 1% performance increase is worth the extra cost and maintenance...

-Adam

Click to expand...

If you really need more performance, upgrade to a RAID 0 of SSDs or Velociraptors, or, since you seem like you want to [strike:12noi9z0]waste[/strike:12noi9z0] spend money on components that marginally increase your FPS in Team Fortress 2, blow several grand on a SAS controller and 15K Seagate drives, or 4 SLI'd dual-GPU video cards.

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:55 pm --

Overclocking really only has a tangible performance boost on the low-end, anyway.

Cuyval Dar said:

stienman said:

Shegokigo said:

if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Click to expand...

Because it takes another 9 yards of tubing, each cooled item adds at least two more tubing joints that can leak, and you either need to increase the size of the radiator for each item, or live with a higher temperature for all your items. The additional tubing creates airflow problems inside the case. Etc, etc, etc.

But it doesn't matter, since you haven't given the reason for the liquid cooling then we can't judge when you might want to follow a particular path. Air cooling is adequate for most overclocking, and the gain in any overclocking that requires liquid cooling is marginal compared to the initial gain done from air cooling.

Personally, since you already have everything but the liquid cooling setup, I'd suggest overclocking it as-is while monitoring the temperatures and seeing if it's necessary. If you need more cooling, I'd look at additional case fans with appropriate cross flowing ventilation before taking the leap to liquid cooling.

Liquid cooling does have some advantages, and does allow some slight performance gain beyond good air cooling, but it's so much more expensive and difficult to maintain correctly that it's almost never worth it. It's the audiophile equivalent of Monster Cables. Slightly better, maybe, significantly more costly, always.

But if you're really at the bleeding edge, maybe that extra 1% performance increase is worth the extra cost and maintenance...

-Adam

Click to expand...

If you really need more performance, upgrade to a RAID 0 of SSDs or Velociraptors, or, since you seem like you want to [strike:3f4wrjjz]waste[/strike:3f4wrjjz] spend money on components that marginally increase your FPS in Team Fortress 2, blow several grand on a SAS controller and 15K Seagate drives, or 4 SLI'd dual-GPU video cards.

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:55 pm --

Overclocking really only has a tangible performance boost on the low-end, anyway.

Click to expand...

*drools*

Chibibar said:

Cuyval Dar said:

stienman said:

Shegokigo said:

if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Click to expand...

Because it takes another 9 yards of tubing, each cooled item adds at least two more tubing joints that can leak, and you either need to increase the size of the radiator for each item, or live with a higher temperature for all your items. The additional tubing creates airflow problems inside the case. Etc, etc, etc.

But it doesn't matter, since you haven't given the reason for the liquid cooling then we can't judge when you might want to follow a particular path. Air cooling is adequate for most overclocking, and the gain in any overclocking that requires liquid cooling is marginal compared to the initial gain done from air cooling.

Personally, since you already have everything but the liquid cooling setup, I'd suggest overclocking it as-is while monitoring the temperatures and seeing if it's necessary. If you need more cooling, I'd look at additional case fans with appropriate cross flowing ventilation before taking the leap to liquid cooling.

Liquid cooling does have some advantages, and does allow some slight performance gain beyond good air cooling, but it's so much more expensive and difficult to maintain correctly that it's almost never worth it. It's the audiophile equivalent of Monster Cables. Slightly better, maybe, significantly more costly, always.

But if you're really at the bleeding edge, maybe that extra 1% performance increase is worth the extra cost and maintenance...

-Adam

Click to expand...

If you really need more performance, upgrade to a RAID 0 of SSDs or Velociraptors, or, since you seem like you want to [strike:1be7z980]waste[/strike:1be7z980] spend money on components that marginally increase your FPS in Team Fortress 2, blow several grand on a SAS controller and 15K Seagate drives, or 4 SLI'd dual-GPU video cards.

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:55 pm --

Overclocking really only has a tangible performance boost on the low-end, anyway.

Click to expand...

*drools*

Click to expand...

You know, if she was using the PC for other purposes, like Photoshop (GPU-acceleration), any of the @Home(s) (Parallel processing that would take advantage of GPU(s) and the i7), or HD video editing/encoding (multi-threading, GPU-acceleration, 15K SAS HD). I wouldn't bat an eye.

But since all she really does is gaming, and general computing tasks, there is no real need for multi-card graphical solutions like SLI/CF that do not scale well at all, or water cooling to overclock an already speedy CPU.

Cuyval Dar said:

But since all she really does is gaming, there is no real need for multi-card graphical solutions like SLI/CF that do not scale well at all, or water cooling to overclock an already speedy CPU.

Click to expand...

The only reason these things exist at a consumer level is due to gaming, and the high end cards, overclocking, etc do help - especially in fast twitch games where framerate is nice, but latency is king.

The time form the button input to the cpu running through the code path that generates the models to the transfer to the GPU to the GPU rendering the frame with data generated from the initial button press is measurable and noticeable.

For fast twitch FPS players, a better rig does result in an advantage against other players.

Still, water cooling only gives a small boost above what can be accomplished with cheap, safe air cooling, so it often only makes sense for those that have already maxed out their system in most other ways.

-Adam

stienman said:

Still, water cooling only gives a small boost above what can be accomplished with cheap, safe air cooling, so it often only makes sense for those that have already maxed out their system in most other ways.

-Adam

Click to expand...

Yeah, a well designed case and some good heatsinks will work nearly as well. Just might create a lot more noise.

Shakey said:

stienman said:

Still, water cooling only gives a small boost above what can be accomplished with cheap, safe air cooling, so it often only makes sense for those that have already maxed out their system in most other ways.

-Adam

Click to expand...

Yeah, a well designed case and some good heatsinks will work nearly as well. Just might create a lot more noise.

Click to expand...

Depends on how high-quality the fans are. Plus, you can always get a fan controller, or just use air filters (That have the benefit of preventing dust buildup).

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:03 pm --

stienman said:

Cuyval Dar said:

But since all she really does is gaming, there is no real need for multi-card graphical solutions like SLI/CF that do not scale well at all, or water cooling to overclock an already speedy CPU.

Click to expand...

The only reason these things exist at a consumer level is due to gaming, and the high end cards, overclocking, etc do help - especially in fast twitch games where framerate is nice, but latency is king.

The time form the button input to the cpu running through the code path that generates the models to the transfer to the GPU to the GPU rendering the frame with data generated from the initial button press is measurable and noticeable.

For fast twitch FPS players, a better rig does result in an advantage against other players.

Still, water cooling only gives a small boost above what can be accomplished with cheap, safe air cooling, so it often only makes sense for those that have already maxed out their system in most other ways.

-Adam

Click to expand...

I fully agree with what you say, do not get me wrong.

It is not optimal to have a multi-card setup, especially given that Nvidia has almost always built GPUs that run more hot than their ATI counterparts.
It would be a different story if you saw a 100% boost for each GPU over the same card in a single-GPU config.
The power consumption and rate of obsolescence make it illogical to buy 2 or more cards that will be outclassed in 6 months by a single card that is cheaper, more power efficient and faster.

I already have a Velociraptor drive just a heads up. :slywink:

If I could find a safe guaranteed air cooling set-up for that kind of heat output I wouldn't think twice and go with the air. I'm not exactly fond of the liquid idea at all.

Also, it may seem like I have tons of money to throw a around but I really do budget for these things by not spending in other places. I was looking at about $800 to spend on getting my system OC/Quad SLI ready.

Now for those saying minimal performance increase, I'm going to simply state "That's exactly what I'm looking for". I currently run games like Fallout 3 with about 40 HQ mods right now on "HIGH" settings and keep at a steady 60fps for the most part. Problem is, every now and then I get a stutter here and there, which drops me to the 50s or so. I cannot tell you how insane that drives me. TF2 runs at 100+fps at full HIGH settings, so I'm not gonna get any performance there. World of Warcraft, with my mods, and maxed sliders, has me running at a slightly stuttered 40-60fps in the over world in certain heavy load places, and 30-40fps in full out raids. This, to me, is unacceptable, as when I'm running a heroic, I have 80+fps and I can FEEL the difference between the 30-40 and 80fps in a DPS situation. If I could have a permanent SOLID 60fps in everything I play, stutter free. It'll be worth the "bit extra".

Shegokigo said:

I already have a Velociraptor drive just a heads up. :slywink:

If I could find a safe guaranteed air cooling set-up for that kind of heat output I wouldn't think twice and go with the air. I'm not exactly fond of the liquid idea at all.

Also, it may seem like I have tons of money to throw a around but I really do budget for these things by not spending in other places. I was looking at about $800 to spend on getting my system OC/Quad SLI ready.

Now for those saying minimal performance increase, I'm going to simply state "That's exactly what I'm looking for". I currently run games like Fallout 3 with about 40 HQ mods right now on "HIGH" settings and keep at a steady 60fps for the most part. Problem is, every now and then I get a stutter here and there, which drops me to the 50s or so. I cannot tell you how insane that drives me. TF2 runs at 100+fps at full HIGH settings, so I'm not gonna get any performance there. World of Warcraft, with my mods, and maxed sliders, has me running at a slightly stuttered 40-60fps in the over world in certain heavy load places, and 30-40fps in full out raids. This, to me, is unacceptable, as when I'm running a heroic, I have 80+fps and I can FEEL the difference between the 30-40 and 80fps in a DPS situation. If I could have a permanent SOLID 60fps in everything I play, stutter free. It'll be worth the "bit extra".

Click to expand...

shego: I hereby bow to your hardcore-ness. cause I find those acceptable

I honestly wish it didn't bother me as much as it does. I can be playing and having a blast in Fallout, then it hits that stutter and I just feel like tossing out the whole PC. rly:

The WoW problem is actually a performance issue in my raids, as lower FPS is lowering my DPS (fractionally) and I can't be faltering in that department or I'm gonna lose my Raid Group A spot before too long.

Shegokigo said:

Self overclocks? Tell me more.

Click to expand...

Everything You Need to Know About Nehalem's "Turbo Mode"

Shegokigo also said:

Also, if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Click to expand...

I'm with Cuyval Dar and Steinman. Increased complexity means increased number of points of potential failure.

Watercooling just your video cards means less tubing and less 'in the loop.' It also means you won't have to rebuild your entire cooling setup if you move to a different motherboard with different physical CPU type or placement. And since the heat is being conducted outside of the case via a different path (liquid), that means the ambient air temperature inside the case will be lower, meaning there will be more 'thermal bandwidth' available for that ambient air to soak up heat from the CPU(s), the voltage regulators, the HDDs, etc. Honestly, I'd almost rather put 2x285 in SLI right now rather than buy a single 295. Keep in mind that most SLI boards split 1 PCIe x16 slot into two PCIe x8 slots when they enable SLI, meaning that putting 2x295 in many of today's systems actually cuts the bandwidth to each card in half, possibly choking the 295s. If only someone would test this for us on a nice, fast Core i7 system? Oh, wait...what's this over here*?

Cuyval Dar said:

If you really need more performance, upgrade to a RAID 0 of SSDs or Velociraptors, or, since you seem like you want to [strike:1oc4h3hq]waste[/strike:1oc4h3hq] spend money on components that marginally increase your FPS in Team Fortress 2, blow several grand on a SAS controller and 15K Seagate drives, or 4 SLI'd dual-GPU video cards.

Click to expand...

Hah! Obviously what's needed is a 4-way RAID 0 of OCZ Vertex SSDs, or better yet, a 4-way RAID 0 of 2xHyperDrive5 DDR drives (each one has 2 SATAII ports). Did we already mention the Asus P6T6, too?

--Patrick
*Possibly the most important takeaway from this article is the following quote: "...you'll also need Windows Vista to get Quad SLI support. Windows XP does not support more than 2 GPUs properly." So much for your XP Black build, Shego.

I'm not worried about my XP Black at all, I'm dying to get onto Windows 7 but have been putting it off for a real necessity.

Thanks for the links though, I'll check them out.

By the way, Shego...incredibly in-depth article on gaming lag over an Anandtech released today. Might be interesting.

--Patrick

The only real question with going to watercooling is if you are willing to risk killing some expensive equipment to get what you want. If you are OK with that, than go for it.

Go the whole hog and immerse the whole thing in mineral oil.

I love the waste. Its great.

Shannow said:

I love the waste. Its great.

Click to expand...

:bush:

Alright so I've been back and forth on the whole thing. I would really like to go with a strong air cooling set-up if there is one available to handle that amount of heat for that long. (I'm on my PC for about 8+hrs a day)

Shegokigo said:

Shannow said:

I love the waste. Its great.

Click to expand...

:bush:

Alright so I've been back and forth on the whole thing. I would really like to go with a strong air cooling set-up if there is one available to handle that amount of heat for that long. (I'm on my PC for about 8+hrs a day)

Click to expand...

I don't see how you're going to pull off a strong air cooling setup without modding the shit out of your case.

Key basics: Hot air rises. Air fills in low pressure pockets. Air moves out of high pressure pockets.

I have a clear case, where the rear fan and front fan suck in air. I have two exhaust fans on the side and one big one at the top (my power supply fan).

Essentially air flow is the movement from high pressure pockets to low pockets. You're fan exhaust side is the high pressure while the side that pulls air toward it creates a low pressure pocket.

Here's my set up:



If I really wanted to I would drill a hole on the top and put a nice big fan there to create a low pressure pocket at the top where all the heat rises. If it's nice and cool outside I open the window and use a window fan to force cold are into the back induction fan. Oh the white bar under the CPU represents my video card. The induction fan blows cool air over the surface of the card and the exhaust from the Video Card fan is pulled into the low pressure caused by the two side exhaust fans.

I'm not exactly opposed to buying a convient case for an air cooling setup.

Shegokigo said:

I'm not exactly opposed to buying a convient case for an air cooling setup.

Click to expand...

What case do you have at the moment? And what/how many fans? I'm just wondering how much room for improvement you'll have.

Cooler Master HAF 932 or Thermaltake Spedo are both good cases, and are set up to accept water cooling if you decide to go that route in the future. Both are a bit spendy though.

Shakey said:

Cooler Master HAF 932 or Thermaltake Spedo are both good cases, and are set up to accept water cooling if you decide to go that route in the future. Both are a bit spendy though.

Click to expand...

Why are people so afraid to cut holes in their stuff?

Buy a cheap ass 30 dollar case. Cut it up and add your mods.

Chazwozel said:

Shakey said:

Cooler Master HAF 932 or Thermaltake Spedo are both good cases, and are set up to accept water cooling if you decide to go that route in the future. Both are a bit spendy though.

Click to expand...

Why are people so afraid to cut holes in their stuff?

Buy a cheap ass 30 dollar case. Cut it up and add your mods.

Click to expand...

Because not everyone has the tools to do it. The majority of the time it also ends up looking like ass if they don't know what they are doing. These cases are more than just a few holes though.

Chazwozel said:

Shakey said:

Cooler Master HAF 932 or Thermaltake Spedo are both good cases, and are set up to accept water cooling if you decide to go that route in the future. Both are a bit spendy though.

Click to expand...

Why are people so afraid to cut holes in their stuff?

Buy a cheap ass 30 dollar case. Cut it up and add your mods.

Click to expand...

I have very little if any artistic skills and even a whole lot less in metal/plastic skills.

I can measure and cut, but probably won't look as cool (more than likely have gaps and such and might have some air leaks) and probably won't be as "optimized" I have no qualms in passing to a pro who can do a whole lot better job than I. (hence I buy premade case)

Chazwozel said:

Why are people so afraid to cut holes in their stuff?

Buy a cheap ass 30 dollar case. Cut it up and add your mods.

Click to expand...

Cheap 30$ case?

How much for the tools to cut and materials for the mods?

Shegokigo said:

Chazwozel said:

Why are people so afraid to cut holes in their stuff?

Buy a cheap ass 30 dollar case. Cut it up and add your mods.

Click to expand...

Cheap 30$ case?

How much for the tools to cut and materials for the mods?

Click to expand...

Well.. lets see a low line dremel is around 70$? my wife got one that is around 90$ with a bunch of accessories (it is also wireless) she LOVES it. It has a good grip. kinda like a mini drill style (perfect for her)

I don't know what else you need.

Chibibar said:

Shegokigo said:

Chazwozel said:

Why are people so afraid to cut holes in their stuff?

Buy a cheap a** 30 dollar case. Cut it up and add your mods.

Click to expand...

Cheap 30$ case?

How much for the tools to cut and materials for the mods?

Click to expand...

Well.. lets see a low line dremel is around 70$? my wife got one that is around 90$ with a bunch of accessories (it is also wireless) she LOVES it. It has a good grip. kinda like a mini drill style (perfect for her)

I don't know what else you need.

Click to expand...

Ah, see, I consider a Dremel an essential tool for any household, so I don't consider the purchase of one "project money". A Dremel comes in handy all the time!

Chazwozel said:

Ah, see, I consider a Dremel an essential tool for any household, so I don't consider the purchase of one "project money". A Dremel comes in handy all the time!

Click to expand...

for you and my wife probably. I don't use as much. My wife LOVES it and use it for a lot of things. Shego... I don't know.

I don't see her as a "crafter" type

If you just want to make holes for fans I would use a drill with a hole saw instead.



Some fan screws to hold the fan in place. Fan grills so you don't get any wandering pets sucked in.

For fans, go for 120mm if they fit. The cheaper ones will be louder and won't pull as much air.

Shakey said:

If you just want to make holes for fans I would use a drill with a hole saw instead.


Some fan screws to hold the fan in place. Fan grills so you don't get any wandering pets sucked in.

For fans, go for 120mm if they fit. The cheaper ones will be louder and won't pull as much air.

Click to expand...

heh.. I remember seeing an image where a family of rats living in a PC.

Chibibar said:

for you and my wife probably. I don't use as much. My wife LOVES it and use it for a lot of things. Shego... I don't know.

I don't see her as a "crafter" type

Click to expand...

Oh I've got plenty of tools, I was just trying to make a point about the cost.

Also, granted to you Chaz, the tool would be useful to have around the house, though my point is, the PC tower case would see about 99% more useage. :slywink:

Good lord. Why would you buy some cheap ass .4mm steel and plastic case that will fall apart under the weight of a i7 and heatsink, large motherboard, hard drive(s), SLI'd GTX 295s?

You do not even know what case she has. I'm willing to bet that it has better airflow than you can get by drilling holes in a $30 dollar junker.

Also, I would love to see where you can find a good full or large mid-tower case for $30 dollars.
You know, that isn't made of plastic, or just "fell off a truck".

Shego, just go to Newegg, invest in some Scythe 120mm fans and a good 5.25"-bay fan controller.

Gill Kaiser said:

Go the whole hog and immerse the whole thing in mineral oil.

Click to expand...

Or Flourinert with a little help from LN[sub:2ykkbba5]2[/sub:2ykkbba5].

Also, I would be worried that drilling holes in any $30 case would weaken it to the point where it would collapse under its own weight...not the way to properly honor those components, that's for sure.

--Patrick

I cut a hole in my $120 case, probably wasn't worth the hassle, but I'm still glad I did.

Cuyval Dar said:

Good lord. Why would you buy some cheap a** .4mm steel and plastic case that will fall apart under the weight of a i7 and heatsink, large motherboard, hard drive(s), SLI'd GTX 295s?

You do not even know what case she has. I'm willing to bet that it has better airflow than you can get by drilling holes in a $30 dollar junker.

Also, I would love to see where you can find a good full or large mid-tower case for $30 dollars.
You know, that isn't made of plastic, or just \"fell off a truck\".

Shego, just go to Newegg, invest in some Scythe 120mm fans and a good 5.25\"-bay fan controller.

Click to expand...

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... J-4050%20P

Ok ok 50 bucks.

And it's just a computer case, chief. Not a fucking rocket ship. It doesn't have to survive doing mach 3.

Chazwozel said:

And it's just a computer case, chief. Not a fucking rocket ship. It doesn't have to survive doing mach 3.

Click to expand...

Doing the mineral oil immersion is safer than doing water cooling. I work with Swagelok compression fittings at work all day. These things are designed to take 2000lbs of pressure on a 1/4"line, they are pretty much the best of the best when it comes to good fittings. I have run water lines with that stuff many times, and pretty much every times I build something there will be a leak in the beginning. And this is with the best of the best 10$ a nut 45$ a union fitting:



You on the other hand will be using this:



with some tygon tubing and some copper wire. Its going to leak. Either the heat in the case softens the tubing a little, maybe the copper isn't on there tight enough, or god forbid some blockage gets in the tubing which will cause a pressure spike cause that tube will jump straight off.

Water cooling is a good way to fry a really nice system to get marginal performance benefits.

Shegokigo said:

Chazwozel said:

And it's just a computer case, chief. Not a fucking rocket ship. It doesn't have to survive doing mach 3.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thanks for quoting, so that I could see this.

I said full or large mid-tower. That is a smaller mid-tower, and I doubt that it could fit a pair of GTX 295s, let alone the Core i7 heatsink.
Also, it is made out of cheap ass steel/plastic. The is room for only 3 fans with out making it look more like ass by cutting holes in it.

If you want a solid full tower with more than enough air-cooling power, check out the Cooler Master ATCS 840

Another option is the Silverstone Raven RV01
It may be a better choice for you, because it is designed to take the weight of dual-GPU cards like your GTX295 off of the motherboard.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... CatId=1509

I sport this asshole. It basically has a helicopter blade on top for exhaust. It's surprisingly quiet too.

Frankie said:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4435046&CatId=1509

I sport this asshole. It basically has a helicopter blade on top for exhaust. It's surprisingly quiet too.

Click to expand...

But the whole point of this thread was how she wants a better cooling setup for her huge-ass Core i7, soon to be SLI'd GTX 295s, and assorted other components.
There is no way in hell you will fit GTX 295s, let alone the Core i7 in most mid-towers, let alone that she wants a case that supports water cooling/epic air cooling.

Cuyval Dar said:

Shegokigo said:

Chazwozel said:

And it's just a computer case, chief. Not a smurfing rocket ship. It doesn't have to survive doing mach 3.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thanks for quoting, so that I could see this.

I said full or large mid-tower. That is a smaller mid-tower, and I doubt that it could fit a pair of GTX 295s, let alone the Core i7 heatsink.
Also, it is made out of cheap a** steel/plastic. The is room for only 3 fans with out making it look more like a** by cutting holes in it.

If you want a solid full tower with more than enough air-cooling power, check out the Cooler Master ATCS 840

Another option is the Silverstone Raven RV01
It may be a better choice for you, because it is designed to take the weight of dual-GPU cards like your GTX295 off of the motherboard.

Click to expand...

Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?

Chazwozel said:

Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?

Click to expand...

If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.

crono1224 said:

Chazwozel said:

Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?

Click to expand...

If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.

Click to expand...

Thanks for quoting, Crono.

I love it when idiot ricers think that its ok to put thousands of dollars into a system, and then assemble it in a case that will collapse under the weight.

With either of the cases that I mentioned, there is great air cooling built in, and in the case (unintentional pun) of the ATCS 840, it make it easy to add water cooling. Shego needs a case that is durable, offers sufficient cooling out of the box (After all, she prebuilt from ibuypower.com, rather than Newegg the system.) and can fit two giant GTX 295s.

The $30 junker that Chaz suggested modding offers none of those, and I can garantee it will look like ass.
[spoiler:3r4oq9tb]In retrospect, of course, that may be the best choice for Chaz, because like pets, computers match their owners.
And that clearly explains why Shego bought a smokin' hot rig![/spoiler:3r4oq9tb]

Cuyval Dar said:

crono1224 said:

Chazwozel said:

Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?

Click to expand...

If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.

Click to expand...

Thanks for quoting, Crono.

I love it when idiot ricers think that its ok to put thousands of dollars into a system, and then assemble it in a case that will collapse under the weight.

With either of the cases that I mentioned, there is great air cooling built in, and in the case (unintentional pun) of the ATCS 840, it make it easy to add water cooling. Shego needs a case that is durable, offers sufficient cooling out of the box (After all, she prebuilt from ibuypower.com, rather than Newegg the system.) and can fit two giant GTX 295s.

The $30 junker that Chaz suggested modding offers none of those, and I can garantee it will look like a**.
[spoiler:9wdl6o6l]In retrospect, of course, that may be the best choice for Chaz, because like pets, computers match their owners.
And that clearly explains why Shego bought a smokin' hot rig![/spoiler:9wdl6o6l]

Click to expand...

I understand his sentiments that if you can do it on the cheap its better to do it yourself, self case moding is not inherently easy or cheap. I think i got http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129043 for around 100$ on sale, and that had all that i needed, and for the extra 50$ it didn't look like a 3rd grader with plastic scissors tried to mod it.

crono1224 said:

Cuyval Dar said:

crono1224 said:

Chazwozel said:

Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?

Click to expand...

If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.

Click to expand...

Thanks for quoting, Crono.

I love it when idiot ricers think that its ok to put thousands of dollars into a system, and then assemble it in a case that will collapse under the weight.

With either of the cases that I mentioned, there is great air cooling built in, and in the case (unintentional pun) of the ATCS 840, it make it easy to add water cooling. Shego needs a case that is durable, offers sufficient cooling out of the box (After all, she prebuilt from ibuypower.com, rather than Newegg the system.) and can fit two giant GTX 295s.

The $30 junker that Chaz suggested modding offers none of those, and I can garantee it will look like a**.
[spoiler:1zinypy7]In retrospect, of course, that may be the best choice for Chaz, because like pets, computers match their owners.
And that clearly explains why Shego bought a smokin' hot rig![/spoiler:1zinypy7]

Click to expand...

I understand his sentiments that if you can do it on the cheap its better to do it yourself, self case moding is not inherently easy or cheap. I think i got http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129043 for around 100$ on sale, and that had all that i needed, and for the extra 50$ it didn't look like a 3rd grader with plastic scissors tried to mod it.

Click to expand...

And I fully understand that. Don't get me wrong, I love modding. A project that I did with my uncle several years back was making a Transformers case, and it came out beautifully.

Most of the great modding projects come about when people build something from scratch, or modify a higher-end case to suit their needs.
It's just kind of difficult to take a cheap-ass case and expect to build it to the same quality of craftmanship as Lian-Li, Silverstone, or Cooler Master can.

I,for one, would prefer to buy a nice case that I know will suit my present and future needs.
Do you want your $4000 rig to implode during a move or while enroute to a LAN party?
I think not.

Cuyval Dar said:

crono1224 said:

Chazwozel said:

Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?

Click to expand...

If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.

Click to expand...

Thanks for quoting, Crono.

I love it when idiot ricers think that its ok to put thousands of dollars into a system, and then assemble it in a case that will collapse under the weight.

With either of the cases that I mentioned, there is great air cooling built in, and in the case (unintentional pun) of the ATCS 840, it make it easy to add water cooling. Shego needs a case that is durable, offers sufficient cooling out of the box (After all, she prebuilt from ibuypower.com, rather than Newegg the system.) and can fit two giant GTX 295s.

The $30 junker that Chaz suggested modding offers none of those, and I can garantee it will look like a**.
In retrospect, of course, that may be the best choice for Chaz, because like pets, computers match their owners.
And that clearly explains why Shego bought a smokin' hot rig!

Click to expand...

Ricers? collapse under the weight? Are you high?

Earth to moron. Dude, it's a computer case.
http://www.xoxide.com/clearacatxca.html Here's my case. 60 bucks and it hasn't fallen apart 'under its own weight'. Although I do get a little scared when it's flying over Russian territory at Mach 1.

And I'm always sure to invite as many women over to my office to show off my computer case. Everyone knows that an awesome looking computer gets 'em wet.

Here. Full Tower. Metal. Two HUGE side fans.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811215009

70 bucks. A fraction of the money you'd waste on anything more expensive.

This little pissing contest is getting pathetic though. It's a fucking computer case. Sheg, I got a decent 50 dollar one in my closet if you want it. Just pay me the shipping fees.

Case wars aside (ahem)...

If you are going to use liquid to cool any computer component, you are going to run into the eventual problem of leakage. It will either be slow and minute (such as that experienced by PowerMac G5s) or it will be sudden and catastrophic (hose bursts, pops off a fitting, sprays down the inside of your computer, etc).

The best liquid to use in cooling systems is good ol' water (which is why it is in car radiators). That's because it has one of the highest specific heats of any terrestrial liquid. Basically this means that it takes more energy to raise the temperature of water by one degree than it does to raise the temperature of, say, alcohol. Plus, water is very common and easy to acquire. Unfortunately, water conducts electricity*, is corrosive, and it is prone to fill up with algae and slime if not maintained.

The best compromise liquid appears to be mineral oil. It is less biologically active, it is non-corrosive and it doesn't conduct electricity (which is why it is often used in ). If you experience a catastrophic leak, you will have a greasy, wet computer, but it will not outright die (assuming you turn it off before the components overheat due to lack of cooling).

However, even the best liquid cooling system can't cool your components lower than ambient temperature (without getting exotic). This means it is a good idea not to run your machine in a room that is so warm that you wouldn't be comfortable sitting in it either. Some ways around this are to submerge your external cooling radiator in a bucket of ice water or to experiment with Thermal-Electric Cooling (TEC). Adding TEC units into the loop can assist in keeping a system cool, but they can significantly increase the power requirement of a setup, and if they are used too aggressively, they also create a risk of condensation forming on/near components, and then we're back to the aforementioned water problems.

If liquid and/or liquid+TEC is not enough for you, you should look into phase change systems (essentially building a refrigerator/freezer into your computer), but then we're talking impressive cost. In my opinion, if you have to push a consumer system beyond liquid+TEC, you're probably chasing that dream a little too hard. If your way of life legitimately depends on getting an extra 3-5fps out of a rig, then maybe, just maybe you could consider it justified.

Plenty of interesting hardware here.

--Patrick
*Pure water does not conduct electricity. Pure water is also extremely hard to create and maintain.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtufuXLvOok:32s52ogf][/youtube:32s52ogf]
:bush:

Protip: Just like you see in that video, do NOT submerge the mechanical parts of the computer (CD/DVD, HDD). They can't work correctly when wet (The oil's refractivity will bork the ODD laser, and HDDs need to breathe air in and out for expansion reasons) and you will never be able to get them clean enough to work properly ever again.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

--Patrick
*Pure water does not conduct electricity. Pure water is also extremely hard to create and maintain.

Click to expand...

Not if you're me and have access to reverse osmosis processed deionized water.

-- Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:50 pm --

Shegokigo said:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtufuXLvOok:ya3z54qh][/youtube:ya3z54qh]
:bush:

Click to expand...

But Shego. He used plastic and acrylic. That case is garbage.

He needs to throw a plastic fish or two in there and some aquarium plastic plants.

Chazwozel said:

Not if you're me and have access to reverse osmosis processed deionized water.

Click to expand...

So for you, it's only hard to maintain. Put that deionized water in contact with some sort of active metal (like, say...copper? Or aluminium?) and see how long your ion-free solution stays that way.

I'm a-tellin' ya. If you want to do it on the cheap, go with mineral oil. If you has (quite) a few bucks to spend, go with Flourinert™.

--Patrick

Update!

Hmm...looks like someone out there must read this thread.

BFG Introduces 285/295 cards with integrated liquid cooling
(FWIW, I still think that 2x285 is the best solution for XP)

--Patrick

Man, I don't know about BFG cards. I'm on my third RMA with them on my 8800 gtx's which keep bursting into flames.