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Linky:

http://japantoday.com/category/world/view/3-malaysian-churches-firebombed-in-allah-dispute


And here I thought Malaysia (in my experience) was more moderate...but good lord.

Crazy people,they're everywhere and tend to make themselves noticed.

But man, i remember the Allah ting being somewhere in the Middle East, not Malay... stupid memory is acting up again i guess.

Amorous Eyes said:

"It's not for Christians!"
Uh, newsflash! God clearly stats in the Quran that Christians can go to heaven too. STFU and lrn2read ur Quran.

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But then they'll have to lie when misquoting/misunderstanding/misrepresenting it and lying is a sin...

Amorous Eyes said:

God, most Muslims are such fucking idiots.

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I could say the same about christians...

This is all very unfortunate. I don't mean to condone what's going on, but I try to dismiss the problems Islam is going through as their dark age. Christianity had the crusades, but shortly thereafter most of us smartened up (as previously mentioned). I hope for an extremeit-free (or at least extremist-marginalized) future for Islam. Globalization is clearly contributing to a theological upheaval within Islam, which must be challenging and scary. Scared and challenged people lash out. Again, I'm not condoning anything, but I don't believe these problems will last forever.

Also, Ame, did you just say that you are Muslim, or did I misread something?

Slowly becoming?! I recall that it already was #1... oh right, it's just bigger then any one christian denomination, not all of them taken together.

Silver Jelly;326130][QUOTE=Amorous Eyes said:

God, most Muslims are such fucking idiots.

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I could say the same about [STRIKE]christians...[/STRIKE] EVERYBODY[/QUOTE]


All better...

I swear though.. It's harder to come out as Muslim than as a transsexual these days.

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That's just because Muslims seem to care less about transsexuals (a least in Iran from what i've heard).

Wow, that's actually fascinating. I know Islam is the world's fastest growing religion, and if you take Protestantism and Catholicism as separate world religions (a thing that some do) Islam is definitely the largest single religion. That's incredible, considering that Islam is some several hundred years younger than Christianity.

I have been meaning to educate myself in the realms of Arabic philosophy, which is (as I'm sure is obvious) very Islam-influenced. I feel like Islam is something I need to learn more about, particularly since I intend to do a lot of travel in the Near East in the next few years. The problem is that I don't exactly trust what books I've found to be unbiased, and haven't exactly been diligent in finding other ways to educate myself.

"Amorous Eyes said:

@Li3n said:

Slowly becoming?! I recall that it already was #1... oh right, it's just bigger then any one christian denomination, not all of them taken together.

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Yeah, lumped together the Christians are still #1 but when it comes down to it Islam is of course on top with a huge lead.

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Of course you guys have denominations too, right, just never went through anything like the Protestant Reformation.

Amorous Eyes said:

This is surprisingly true, to an extend. With one important condition though. You have to be 100% passable. Which means a lot of FFS (Facial Feminization Surgery) for most. They disappear for a few years and come back as their new self. There is some small history between Muslims and transsexuals, they had their own denomination and were generally accepted I think, but I forgot what it was called.

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As i recall in Iran it was "kill the gays unless they have an operation"... i found that hilarious... i'm an awful human being.

and if you take Protestantism and Catholicism as separate world religions (a thing that some do)

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So Ronery...

I have been meaning to educate myself in the realms of Arabic philosophy, which is (as I'm sure is obvious) very Islam-influenced.

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I'm pretty sure you can just call it Islamic philosophy... and wikipedia seems to agree: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_philosophy

"Amorous Eyes;326265][QUOTE=@Li3n;326259][QUOTE=Amorous Eyes said:

@Li3n said:

Slowly becoming?! I recall that it already was #1... oh right, it's just bigger then any one christian denomination, not all of them taken together.

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Yeah, lumped together the Christians are still #1 but when it comes down to it Islam is of course on top with a huge lead.

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Of course you guys have denominations too, right, just never went through anything like the Protestant Reformation. [/quote]
True, but not nearly as diverse and chaotic as Christianity. Easily 90% of all Muslims are Sunni/Sh'ite. The rest are just tiny shards with often just little meaningless changes. [/quote]

So just like protestants that aren't Lutheran or Calvinist...

And i found the Sufi's to be the most interesting, though i didn't get if they're an actual denomination or just a philosophy within the religion.

Amorous Eyes said:

It's okay, I chuckled at your statement. They obviously still have much to learn.

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Well it does allow them to say how thee are no homosexuals in their country...

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These attacks could pretty much be the work of 10 idiots, so its not like thousands marching in Iran calling for the death of a political cartoonist.
There are radical elements and nutcases in Malaysia just like there are in the US (remember the bomber guy, school sootings and that sniper freak?).

While I would gladly agree other Mulsim countries are in need of a swift kick in the ass, lets not blame a country for isolated attacks.

Amorous Eyes;326265][QUOTE=@Li3n;326259][QUOTE=Amorous Eyes;326249][QUOTE=@Li3n said:

Slowly becoming?! I recall that it already was #1... oh right, it's just bigger then any one christian denomination, not all of them taken together.

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Yeah, lumped together the Christians are still #1 but when it comes down to it Islam is of course on top with a huge lead.
[/QUOTE]

Of course you guys have denominations too, right, just never went through anything like the Protestant Reformation. [/quote]
True, but not nearly as diverse and chaotic as Christianity. Easily 90% of all Muslims are Sunni/Sh'ite. The rest are just tiny shards with often just little meaningless changes.[/QUOTE]Actually that only applies to African and Asian/Arab muslims = Sunni, Persian descendants = Shiite, the rest are pretty much = secular Islam.

Wow, that's actually fascinating. I know Islam is the world's fastest growing religion, and if you take Protestantism and Catholicism as separate world religions (a thing that some do) Islam is definitely the largest single religion. That's incredible, considering that Islam is some several hundred years younger than Christianity.

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Was.

After Sept11 it drastically reduced.

JCM said:

Wow, that's actually fascinating. I know Islam is the world's fastest growing religion, and if you take Protestantism and Catholicism as separate world religions (a thing that some do) Islam is definitely the largest single religion. That's incredible, considering that Islam is some several hundred years younger than Christianity.

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Was.

After Sept11 it drastically reduced.

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Are you certain? The statistics I remember seeing claimed that it still is based on birth rates alone.

Rob King;326650][QUOTE=JCM said:

Wow, that's actually fascinating. I know Islam is the world's fastest growing religion, and if you take Protestantism and Catholicism as separate world religions (a thing that some do) Islam is definitely the largest single religion. That's incredible, considering that Islam is some several hundred years younger than Christianity.

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Was.

After Sept11 it drastically reduced.

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Are you certain? The statistics I remember seeing claimed that it still is based on birth rates alone.[/QUOTE]I was talking conversions, I remember pre-Sept 11 the Friday congregation of any mosque in New York was more than all churches on Sunday.

Maybe we could say they are the world most-childbearing religion?

JCM said:

I was talking conversions, I remember pre-Sept 11 the Friday congregation of any mosque in New York was more than all churches on Sunday.

Maybe we could say they are the world most-childbearing religion?

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Wait. Are you trying to say that in New York city any single mosque on Friday had more people than all of the Sunday congregations of all the churches in the city combined? Even if Islam is/was growing at an incredible rate, that claim is far too sensational for me to swallow whole.

Rob King;326655][QUOTE=JCM said:

I was talking conversions, I remember pre-Sept 11 the Friday congregation of any mosque in New York was more than all churches on Sunday.

Maybe we could say they are the world most-childbearing religion?

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Wait. Are you trying to say that in New York city any single mosque on Friday had more people than all of the Sunday congregations of all the churches in the city combined? Even if Islam is/was growing at an incredible rate, that claim is far too sensational for me to swallow whole.[/QUOTE]That was a debate claim by Ahmed Deedat on Islam as the fastest growing religion during the 90's ...most Friday prayer congregations dont even fit inside a mosque in the US. In Muslim countries, its worse, as you'll have several blocks around the mosque closed as people who dont ft inside pray outside.

But then its obligatory, so EVERY muslim has to do Friday prayer. Miss 3, youre automatically considered "Mutard", as in a non-Muslim (not officially by society, but by the Qran).

Islamic conversions happened fast, because outside of the extremist Arabs/Asias/Africans, its a pretty sound and theologically and scientifically sound religion, but sadly after Sept 11 conversion rates dropped drastically, and many new converts justifiably left.

Amorous Eyes;326666][QUOTE=JCM said:

most Friday prayer congregations dont even fit inside a mosque in the US. In Muslim countries, its worse, as you'll have several blocks around the mosque closed as people who dont ft inside pray outside.

But then its obligatory, so EVERY muslim has to do Friday prayer. Miss 3, youre automatically considered "Mutard", as in a non-Muslim (not officially by society, but by the Qran).

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This is false. Obligatory, yes. The rest, false.[/QUOTE]My bad, but yes its true, although I should have said "by the prophet"- All the Sunni Mazhabs (but Hanafi) follow and state that. Shiite, I cant say.

"Narrated Al-Ja'd ad-Damri:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who leaves the Friday prayer (continuously) for three Friday on account of slackness, Allah will print a stamp on his heart." (Reported by Abu Dawud Book 2, Number 1047)
Hanafi Muslims believe even to miss one = kafir. Mind you, just like every religion, most people dont know even half of it.

Amorous Eyes;326675][QUOTE=JCM;326670][QUOTE=Amorous Eyes;326666][QUOTE=JCM said:

most Friday prayer congregations dont even fit inside a mosque in the US. In Muslim countries, its worse, as you'll have several blocks around the mosque closed as people who dont ft inside pray outside.

But then its obligatory, so EVERY muslim has to do Friday prayer. Miss 3, youre automatically considered "Mutard", as in a non-Muslim (not officially by society, but by the Qran).

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This is false. Obligatory, yes. The rest, false.[/QUOTE]My bad, but yes its true, although I should have said "by the prophet"- All the Sunni Mazhabs (but Hanafi) follow and state that. Shiite, I cant say.

"Narrated Al-Ja'd ad-Damri:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who leaves the Friday prayer (continuously) for three Friday on account of slackness, Allah will print a stamp on his heart." (Reported by Abu Dawud Book 2, Number 1047)
Hanafi Muslims believe even to miss one = kafir. Mind you, just like every religion, most people dont know even half of it.[/QUOTE]

Sunnah books != Quran.

You cant even pet a dog without washing your hands 7 times afterward according to those idiotic Chinese whispers.[/QUOTE]If you are a Sunni, its because you are following one of the 4 Mazhab. Yes, the Qran is the word of god (acording to Islam) but no man is a Muslim unless he obeys the sunnah, according to the Qran itself. However the problem is that people ONLY read the hadith, but not the writer's notes, on which are sahih, and which arent.

So we're stuck with shitty sunnah from a source which the writer says "seems dubious" saying that people who play chess will be reincarnated in the next life with pig's hands.

Should a Muslim not follow the Sunni Mazhabs, then he can either follow Shiite Islam (with some weirder rituals and saints), or do like me, be a secular Muslim (best example - Benazir Bhutto, worst example - Saddam) and study the Koran, hadith and everyone's opinion and follow it without the Sunni/Shiite filter.

Wrong again. Allah said to obey the prophet or one isnt a Muslim. What the prophet said is the Sunnah, extracted from the Hadith.

Its a normal misconception by non-muslims and a new wave of though in the West by unorthodox Muslims who wish to have easier rules (pretty much what is happening to much of the catholic world today) , as EVERYTHING in ritual, prayer and even the tithe (zakat) is explained in Hadith, from which we take the Sunnah. There is no instructions on how to pray in the Qran, for example, only that you have to do it.

The number of prostations, what to say, exact time for prayer, etc, all come from Hadith. The purpose of the prophet was to explain, and clear doubt. And yes, its in the Qran, whether you are Sunni, Shiite or Secular, you HAVE to follow the Sunnah. Not blindly accept every Hadith, mind you, but follow what the prophet says and you find the saying to be linked directly to him.

One example is Surah an-Nisa ayah 59.
O you, those who have faith, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you dispute over a thing, then return it to Allah and the Messenger, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more beautiful of interpretation.

Surah an-Nahl ayah 44-
By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

Surah an-Nisa ayah 65
No, by your Lord and Sustainer, they do not have faith until they have you (O Prophet) judge what is disputed among them, then they do not find in their souls any distress at what you have decided, and they accept it wholly and completely.

Surah al-Hashr ayah 7-...And what the Messenger gives you, so take it, and what he prohibits you, so refrain from it. And be in awe of Allah. Surely Allah is Stern of Punishment.



And what the prophet ordered, explained, and detailed is the Sunnah, which were extracted from the Hadith.
As says Ahmed Ali-

The Mistake of Those Who Confuse the Sunna and the Hadiths

Very often, those who proclaim that they follow the Quran only, ignore the Sunna and concentrate on the hadiths. They assume that if they can refute or disprove the hadiths, they have proved their own position.


Their mistake is to assume that the Sunna and the hadiths are the same thing. This is incorrect. No scholar of Islam has ever claimed that the sources of Shari'a are "the Quran and the hadiths". Rather, the correct statement is that the sources of Shari'a are the Quran and the SUNNA.
The hadiths are a textual source for determining what the Sunna is. But they are not by themselves the Sunna.


The scholars of Islam have developed a sophisticated methodology for collecting the hadiths and for determining from them what the Sunna is.
Collecting the hadiths: Briefly, the great collectors of hadiths such as Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim followed a methodology that they collected everything that there was on a subject, and they marked down how authentic it was. Rather than discarding the material they felt was not wholly authentic, so that it became lost to history, they included it. This means that other scholars can examine the evidence for themselves, and make their own determination of what is authentic.
The above description of the methodology of the hadith collectors should make it abundantly clear why there are hadiths that appear to be contradictory, hadiths with variant wordings, and all the other problems with hadiths that the rejectors point to. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim, and the other great hadith collectors, were not incompetent. Rather, they saw their job to be preserving the evidence so that each later scholar could make his own determination.
Simply put, the rejectors are attempting to take the honesty of Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, and the others and to twist it to prove their own point.
There is no reason for any Muslim to be confused or feel doubt because of variant hadiths in the collections. It is simply a matter of learning about the methodologies and procedures of the scholars.

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Of course, most Muslims, again, take the lazy route and accept Sunni/Shiite Islam, then follow a certain Mazab, and some pretend to be secular Muslims because they are lazy to choose.

But to pretend that the Koran is 100% what Islam is pretty much would take away every single ritual, sentence uttered during prayer, custom and method, and basically disobey Allah's own orders that a Muslim FOLLOW WHAT THE PROPHET SAYS.

Yes, there are lazy Muslims, but dont knock off the Sunnah because most Muslims cant care to study up their own religion.

Now for ome of the ayat you posted, again, looking at the context that a Muslim must follow the prophet-
[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?
Refers to non-Muslims worshiping other gods and accepting other books. God is the source of law, his book says what you have to do, which in it includes OBEY the prophet. same goes for other ayat you posted ala [9:31] and [10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.
The complete Qran, which includes "follow the prophet"

Now this is interesting, everything is translated but the word hadith, a flaw from whatever website you took the sentence, the correct would be like-
[31:6] and [12:111] In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated STORIES this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.
The translation for hadith in those ayat = stories. I wonder why the word hadith was left untranslated, when theres a difference in arabic between hadith -story and hadithul nabiah - Traditions from the prophet.

As you can see, the sentences and those that follow are taken out of context, and taken without knowldge of Islamic theology or Koranic study, because the prophet's traditions is referred to in the Koran as Sunnah, not as Hadith, which means story, and the Koran orders you to obey the prophet, and that he would give instructions.

Apologies for the wall of text, anyway, looking through my English-Arabic koran here I also found this simple gem that explains it better than everything else-

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." [Qur’aan 7:157]

An easier way to explain it would be-

The Qran tells you that you have to pray five times a day. The Prophet shows you HOW.
The Qran tells you you have to give the tithe (zakat). The Prophet explains HOW MUCH and WHEN
The Qran tells you you have to fast. The Prophet tells WHEN to START and FINISH
The Qran tells you you have to wash before prayer, The Prophet tells you how, and what to do when there's no water.
And in the case of Friday prayer, the Qran says its a must, the Prophet explains why and how much can you miss (three times) and how many people you need minimum for a Friday prayer (in case of travel or living far from a Mosque, three).


What the prophet said = the sunnah which is taken from the Hadith.
Hadith = hadithul nabiah, which there are countless collections, but only a handfull accepted, and even then every hadith has footnotes by the compiler tracing it back to the prophet, whether its good or weak, and if there are any other hadith saying the same thing.

Its all there, all a Muslim needs to do is study it, instead of blindly accepting sects. Which is why after 10 years studying Sunni and Shiite (and the Arab-exclusive wahabi) I chose secular Islam with Buddhism, because I'd rather learn the truth on my own.

Amorous, no problem, thers much misinformation about Islam and religions, and while I dont agree with Sunnis and Shiites, Im always glad to correct religious misconceptions.

Amorous Eyes said:

Didn't think I have to do this, but EVERY RELIGIOUS PERSON IN THE WORLD THAT DOES ANY RITUAL THAT ISNT WRITTEN STEP-BY-STEP WORD-BY-WORD is still wrong (1).... *snip* It did not mean "Do everything exactly as Mohammed did (2)*snip* Saying that the Quran states that the Friday Prayer is obligatory, and then saying that it NEGLECTED to mention you can only miss 3. (3)

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Corrected that for you. (1)

Islam is following the Qran, and the prophet, who shows the way. Of course, you arent going to scratch your butt like jesus/Muhammed/Buddha/Moses did, just follow the laws and rituals.(2)

And welcome to religion. No holy book has EVERY DETAIL, step-by-step which is why we have churches, temples and prophets. See Mass, or a hindu cleansing ritual, the step-by-step is NOT in the holy books/bible.(3)

Hadith did not even come into existence 150-200 years after Mohammed.
They are nothing more than Chinese whispers.

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The first Hadith were memorized during his time, written down during the first caliphates after muhammed, and can be traced back earlier than all Gospels, Hindu texts or Bible versions.

Hadith and the Qran were taken to memory, recited and recitals compared. Until today Tahfiz students will memorize the entire Qran, and Siroh scholars, entire compilation of Hadith. As millions do every year, since Islam rose, for over centuries.

Welcome to religious books, they all cant be traced back 100% which is why faith is a big part of any religion.

[5:99] The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message, and GOD knows everything you declare and everything you conceal....

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Bingo. Muhammed didnt create how to pray. God did, and he handed it down. He delivered the constitution and taught the law.

I could spend hours showing how every religion book doesnt show exact prayer, rituals and the like, and how religions often followed spiritual leaders to get the detail.

Mohammed was also not "unlettered", another fabrication to make himNow to cut down on the incorrect stuff- 'special'. He could read and write just fine.

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All documents of the era shows that he couldnt write.
So much that a written Qran was not produced during his time.

Islam wasn't new when the Quran was revealed. It is the SAME religious rites given to Abraham when he ASKED God for them.

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Again wrong. Islam appeared after Muhammad. Its rituals since the time of Muhammed were very different from Jewish/Christians.

Unless Abraham prayed towards Mecca.

[54:17] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

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Yep, its easy to learn. And even came with a guy to show how to do it all.

Disclaimer, if you dont follow a religion, Im sure as hell not trying to convince you the Qran, Hadith, Bible, Testament, any holy book/text can be traced back to the author. Heck, even the earliest written Qran was only made during Abu Bkr's time, even though Muslims will claim its untouched, we have no way of knowing 100% if its correct.

But to be a Mulism, you have to obey the Qran and follow the Sunnah. For the Sunnah, you will have to either accept the 6 sahih ones 100% like people accept that the 4 Gospels chosen by the church is correct.

Or you do like me, study one by one, and find out what is backed by a)common sense b)other hadith and c)doesnt contradict the Qran.
Oh, and I agree 100% that Sunnis and Shiites have gone apeshit choosing Hadiths that doesnt contradict their lifestyle, instead of studying their texts and adapting like the Catholic church.

Holy crap it's a Muslim-Off.

See people?! This is why I, like most of America's elite worship Pan...the Goat God.


(Trying to bring some levity here)

Espy said:

Holy crap it's a Muslim-Off.

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That's what I was thinking.

I love when two smart people go at it, the rest of us get to learn something.

I'm just feeling vindicated. Whenever I'm at a bible study and a debate goes down about a particularly salient point, someone will inevitably cry "WHY ARE YOU SO DIVISIVE? NO OTHER WORLD RELIGION IS SO DIVIDED!" Of course, those of us who know anything roll our eyes at the notion, before cluing up the discussion so that we can move on to other topics. But it's neat to see a philosophy which I have zero experience with or knowledge of being discussed by people who are in the middle of it.

@RobKing

If we go by sheer numbers we definitely win based on how many denominations we have (some of which shouldn't even count as Christian frankly).

All documents of the era shows that he couldnt write.
So much that a written Qran was not produced during his time.

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That only works on the premise that Muhammed himself wrote down the words... as opposed to dictating it to a scribe.




.



Oh, and on an rather unrelated note, JCM, since i couldn't PM you some months ago when the last religious discussion was, i want to clear something up:

Most of our religious icon with Jesus on the cross have his feet standing on something like so: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tlMezMahQ...IYr5QW9TXw4/s400/IIsus_rastignit_pe_cruce.jpg

View attachment 217

We even have it on crosses: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...r_corner.jpg/450px-Orthodox_prayer_corner.jpg

View attachment 218

Just felt you should know.

@Li3n said:

All documents of the era shows that he couldnt write.
So much that a written Qran was not produced during his time.

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That only works on the premise that Muhammed himself wrote down the words... as opposed to dictating it to a scribe. .

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Which also didnt happen, NO written Qran was produced during his time, as thousands memorised it in its entirety. Historically there were no records of him writing previous to Islam's first revelation. The Qran itself mentions-
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures),- in the Taurant and the Gospel... [7:157]

Its just that some take the ayah-[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Tales from the past that he recorded; they were dictated to him day and night," [/FONT]to mean "he wrote", but history shows they didnt write it, they memorized it all. Some historians believe that during Islam's rise he learned to write, and left a written Qran on his deathbed.

Others say that he was illiterate until his death, and others, that he was never literate, but historically there's no proof of writing anything, and the prophecies said the last prophet would be illiterate.

Memorizing is a custom that goes until today, because one can easily change a word in a book, omit a verse or relegate a sentence to footnotes (like Bible versions) but its impossible to do that with the Qran, because millions memorize it in its 30 Juzu' (parts), and make a living of reciting it.

I myself only have the first 5 and the last Juzu', but should anyone give me a Qran modified/misprinted in those parts I would know the difference.

Amorous Eyes said:

Yeah, all we can do here is agree to disagree because I follow Quran alone.

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You are entitled to your own way of following a faith, so are the billions that follow the Sunnah and obey the Qran's instructions. Which include following the prophet's sunna, and Allah himself says that you have to follow his example-

"Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much." (33:21)

Even in your own sentence, the keyword is teach-
"Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger to recite to them Your revelations, teach them the scripture and wisdom, and purify them. You are the Almighty, Most Wise." [2:129]

Which does contradict your opinion earlier that he was just a messenger. His job wasnt only to recite the Qran, but teach them it (the HOW and WHEN and HOW MUCH) and wisdom. Which is why billion of Muslims pray and do rituals like he did.

But then there are countless Christians who refuse the church, Mass and etc, out of curiosity, please tell me, how do you pray? How much do you pay for the zakat? How do you do the ablution?

Im curious to know how one goes about that without following the Sunnah, specially prayer.

Amorous Eyes said:

You're right, some [STRIKE]alterations[/STRIKE] corrections were made that are clear in the Quran so it's not exactly the same. It even says that they are changes. But most of it? Is the same. You don't see that in present time anymore of course, it is vastly different, but it wasn't back then.

[2:125] We have rendered the shrine a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."

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*headslap* Islamic tradition says he built it, but where is it that the Abrahamic religions prayed towards it?

Muslims pray to it, but theres no historic record of any religion but the Arabic idol worshipers praying towards it. Mind you, when I say "Islam" I mean it in the context of the Qran, as in "the last religion and correction" sent down, NOT as in "every religion he sent down.

There's also no need to say "welcome" as I've been a Muslim for quite some time.

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damn, things changed a lot in the years Ive been in the forum.

Anyway, I thought I was talking to someone who was refuting the faith of a billion Muslims that follow the Sunni/Shiite mazhabs and Sunnah, not a Muslim who decided to only follow the Qran.

Technically anyone who mentions the Syahaddah is a Muslim, like anyone who accepts Jesus is a Christian, my apologies if I seemed to say that you weren't a Muslim, the Islamic Fiqh and Sirh I noted applied to Islam as Sunni-Shiites, and those that accept the Sunnah follow it.

JCM;326843][QUOTE=@Li3n said:

All documents of the era shows that he couldnt write.
So much that a written Qran was not produced during his time.

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That only works on the premise that Muhammed himself wrote down the words... as opposed to dictating it to a scribe. .

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Which also didnt happen, NO written Qran was produced during his time, as thousands memorised it in its entirety. Historically there were no records of him writing previous to Islam's first revelation. The Qran itself mentions-
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures),- in the Taurant and the Gospel... [7:157]

Its just that some take the ayah-[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Tales from the past that he recorded; they were dictated to him day and night," [/FONT]to mean "he wrote", but history shows they didnt write it, they memorized it all. Some historians believe that during Islam's rise he learned to write, and left a written Qran on his deathbed.

Others say that he was illiterate until his death, and others, that he was never literate, but historically there's no proof of writing anything, and the prophecies said the last prophet would be illiterate.

Memorizing is a custom that goes until today, because one can easily change a word in a book, omit a verse or relegate a sentence to footnotes (like Bible versions) but its impossible to do that with the Qran, because millions memorize it in its 30 Juzu' (parts), and make a living of reciting it.

I myself only have the first 5 and the last Juzu', but should anyone give me a Qran modified/misprinted in those parts I would know the difference.[/QUOTE]

Dude, all i said is that him being illiterate proves nothing. Obviously that's different then when the first attested written down Koran showed up.

As for the oral variant... yeah, Christianity had that for the first hundred years or so, or at least written down versions where rare (earliest we found was around 300 AD) and that didn't work out so hot either, they had to call ecumenical councils to sort out the differences (although not so much in the text but in the different views about it).

As for the oral variant... yeah, Christianity had that for the first hundred years or so, or at least written down versions where rare (earliest we found was around 300 AD) and that didn't work out so hot either, they had to call ecumenical councils to sort out the differences.

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earlier, if we count in the dead sea scrolls, which date back to 100 BC

@Li3n said:

Dude, all i said is that him being illiterate proves nothing.

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That I can agree. Poetry was a hobby shared by most arabs, and many poets didnt know how to read and write.

I was just saying that while historical proof shows he was illiterate, there are differing opinions and translations of the Qran on whether hew was, or not.

JCM said:

As for the oral variant... yeah, Christianity had that for the first hundred years or so, or at least written down versions where rare (earliest we found was around 300 AD) and that didn't work out so hot either, they had to call ecumenical councils to sort out the differences.

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earlier, if we count in the dead sea scrolls, which date back to 100 BC

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I'm pretty sure Christianity wasn't around in 100 BC...


If we're talking Old Testament that's a whole different thing.

@Li3n;326909][QUOTE=JCM said:

As for the oral variant... yeah, Christianity had that for the first hundred years or so, or at least written down versions where rare (earliest we found was around 300 AD) and that didn't work out so hot either, they had to call ecumenical councils to sort out the differences.

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earlier, if we count in the dead sea scrolls, which date back to 100 BC

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I'm pretty sure Christianity wasn't around in 100 BC...


If we're talking Old Testament that's a whole different thing.[/QUOTE]IU was talking about the Bible, but if we take Christianity (and New Testament) alone, yes, you are right.

Well when one says Bible i think of the one codified by Christianity, as opposed to the jewish texts, some of which where not used in the Old Testament for various reasons.

@Lin, regarding the footstool cross: in the second picture, that's not what that is. The cross in that picture is an Eastern Orthodox cross, distinguished by the addition of a bar at the top to represent the sign that Pilate put on the cross, and a slash on the bottom which is representative of the two thieves. On one side, the thief went to heaven (upward part of the slash) on the other side, the thief went to hell (downward part of the slash)

That said, I wouldn't disagree about the footstool part of the cross. Everything I've read leads me to believe that that was simply how Romans crucified people. I've also been lead to believe that they would have pierced the wrists with nails, rather than the palms.

You obviously missed the part where i said our crosses. INRI.

I haven't been to church or any religious classes in a while, so i checked, both theories exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchal_cross#Other_variations

@Li3n said:

You obviously missed the part where i said our crosses. INRI.

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Aah. I guess I did. My mistake.

Amorous Eyes;327089][QUOTE=JCM said:

"Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much." (33:21)

Even in your own sentence, the keyword is teach-
"Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger to recite to them Your revelations, teach them the scripture and wisdom, and purify them. You are the Almighty, Most Wise." [2:129]

Which does contradict your opinion earlier that he was just a messenger. His job wasnt only to recite the Qran, but teach them it (the HOW and WHEN and HOW MUCH) and wisdom. Which is why billion of Muslims pray and do rituals like he did.

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*skips fact that Qran tells you to follow Muhammed* [/QUOTE]Err, the sentences you keep ignoring, I've even translated it myself from Arabic and seen every major interpretation. From earlier ones ala Ummar's own footnotes and Hanafi to modern ones like Yusuf Ali and Ahmed Deedat.

ALL say that Muhammed is the guide, all agree that the Sunnah is integral (although some Hadith are rejected) After all, if you dont use Muhammed's praying method, ablution or zakat fee, you could pretty much bow for one hour spouting Rammstein lyrics, take a shower to wash your face, arms and feet before every prayer and pay almost all your salary as zakat.

After all, god's Messener and Islam as EVERY ONE of his companions and believers followed is according to the Sunnah. Which in itself is mentioned in the Qran, that the prophet will show the way. And that way is what a billion follow.

If it wasn't in the Quran, there was no need to correct it and already correctly done

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Selective ignoring of Allah's orders to follow the prophet isnt "correctly done", my apologies, but Ive never heard this before.

There was no need for a step-by-step guide in some cases as it was common practice.... There are many, many verses that show rites such as Salat and Zakat

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Not 100% same as Abraham's time.

Zakat means tithe. EVERY RELIGION has had it. The zakat is more referred to as Sadaqah (alms) than Zakat in the Qran, while the Jewish tithe to Muhammed also is referred to in Arabic as zakat. It doesnt mean that the Islamic Zakat was the same one given to the Jews. Solat means prayer, which also over time, changed, and also the Qran refers to the rituals the arabs had for the statues as solat. Now, on your points-

Zakat The arabs HAD NO PROPER ZAKAT. The exact amount of money given was defined by the Prophet, and isnt found in the Qran.
Prayer- It says right there in the Quran.. Dawn, Noon, Afternoon, Sunset, Night.
People didn't have pocket watches back then, they used the sun.
So just there is no confusing, noon != 12:00pm but when the sun is at its highest point.
This is why it is still so easy to observe no matter where you are on the planet.
Which means you make up your time basically, because Muhammed's instructing was simple, using observation of shadows. Or do you pray any time you like at afternoon, after all, 3pm or 12:30pm is afternoon? 1 billion muslims pray on exact knowledge of eaxctly when is the afternoon prayer, for example.
Prostations - Er, so which means you do as many as you feel like? BTW, unless you are into saints and follow Shiites, the prostation HAS BEEN THE SAME, since Muhammed first called his companions to his house to pray.

There are many, many verses that show rites such as Salat and Zakat was given to Abraham and that he was the one that taught everyone, and so did everyone else from that point on. It was not new when the Quran was revealed.

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On common practice- In some parts, yes, yet Islam brought countless changes to the prayer. There are differences between Islam and previous religions, and corrections over time.

In theology we call that in Portuguese "allowances". Take any religious course in Islam/Christianity or Judaism and they'llteach you that.
God's rules changed over time. In Abraham's time, one could have countless concubines and wives. Solomon had hundreds of wives.. In Adam's time, siblings could have sex with each other.
So with every time God sent down a prophet, he adapted his rules to the growing world, with Islam supposedly the last one before doomsay (however, Christians believe that there will be one more set of rules when Jesus comes back)

To also answer your PM: I am a Muslim, whether other Muslims agree with that or not. I am not Sunni, Shi'ite, or whathaveyou. I am a Muslim. Period. Full stop. I am not part of a sect, cult, subdivision, denomination, or otherwise splinter faction of Islam.

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Sorry for the question, I have never seen one claim that the Sunnah is not part of being a Muslim, so I had to ask.

Mind you, religion is about faith, and people's finding God, but I never have seen this before, so my apologies for my initial aversion.

However, I would really like to know where you got that the Sunnah were a Chinese invention, as when I did the Hajj I myself saw the earliest hadith recorded during Ummar's time, and its the very first time I hear anything about "Chinese whispers" (and note that Ive debated with detractors of Islam for years), and googling up finds nothing.

(however, Christians believe that there will be one more set of rules when Jesus comes back)

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What?! I think you've been reading the Left Behind series a bit too much.

Call them Broken Telephone like everyone else dammit...

You're answering your own questions here and at the same time ignoring what I said. That takes skill.

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He was always a natural at it, how ever didn't you notice it until now?!

This is why I like being agnostic.

I think you're all fucking retarded

*don't change my posts because you don't like what I have to say*

Chazwozel said:

This is why I like being agnostic.

I think you're all pretty as flowers

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Agreed.

Seriously?

So hey, we are going to try something here. When you act like an asshole and insult everyone then people who are not remotely out of line for saying "this is over the top" report that post I come in and play clean up. So seriously: If you don't like religion or other people having religion or whatever and feel like throwing out crass insults because you are a big man and have to let us know, try this nifty trick: DON'T.

And heres the kicker: Me editing your posts? That was your warning to avoid this kind of trolling.

Espy said:

Seriously?

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Agreed.

Chazwozel said:

This is why I like being agnostic.

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Well technically i'm agnostic too, but that's just because i like logic, it's fun.

I'm an atheist. YEs, atheist. Not agnostic. Atheist, and right up there at 9 or whatever's highest on that scale I've seen mentioned in this forum before. I'm the Chuck Norris of lack of belief, baby! Yet all this religion talk is making me horny. I mean, it's so kinky, this believing in something I don't believe in. Makes me wanna dress up in a fur suit and sing Hallelujah while I pray no one I know sees me.

Huh. This post took a weird turn. It's probably best to ignore me.

Espy said:

Seriously?

So hey, we are going to try something here. When you act like an asshole and insult everyone then people who are not remotely out of line for saying "this is over the top" report that post I come in and play clean up. So seriously: If you don't like religion or other people having religion or whatever and feel like throwing out crass insults because you are a big man and have to let us know, try this nifty trick: DON'T.

And heres the kicker: Me editing your posts? That was your warning to avoid this kind of trolling.

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Uh, I wasn't trolling.

Anyone who tries to make logical conclusions using the bible or the quran as a basis is a fucking retard. About half of the worlds problems stem from people taking their holy books out of context, misinterpretations, and making literal translations or poor ones. Sorry. Truth hurts yo.

Chazwozel said:

Uh, I wasn't trolling.

Anyone who tries to make logical conclusions using the bible or the quran as a basis is a fucking retard. About half of the worlds problems stem from people taking their holy books out of context, misinterpretations, and making literal translations or poor ones. Sorry. Truth hurts yo.

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Aren't those examples of arriving at illogical conclusions? How does that invalidate any use of the premise?

Chazwozel;328191][QUOTE=Espy said:

Seriously?

So hey, we are going to try something here. When you act like an asshole and insult everyone then people who are not remotely out of line for saying "this is over the top" report that post I come in and play clean up. So seriously: If you don't like religion or other people having religion or whatever and feel like throwing out crass insults because you are a big man and have to let us know, try this nifty trick: DON'T.

And heres the kicker: Me editing your posts? That was your warning to avoid this kind of trolling.

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Uh, I wasn't trolling.

Anyone who tries to make logical conclusions using the bible or the quran as a basis is a fucking retard. About half of the worlds problems stem from people taking their holy books out of context, misinterpretations, and making literal translations or poor ones. Sorry. Truth hurts yo.[/QUOTE]

First, calling people morons or "fucking retarded" for believing in something you don't pretty much IS trolling no matter what you say. It was reported, a mod made the call. Coming back in, changing your post and basically being an asshat again is not cool. Let me put it another way.

[FONT=&quot]Arguing with Infraction – If a mod assesses an infraction point or points and you do not agree, you have the right to send that mod or the admins a PM or email to discuss. Whining will probably get you nowhere. If you decide to create a thread or take your complaint public be ready to take 10 points and a 24 hour ban.[/FONT]

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Hey now, he wasn't so much trolling as being himself...

I thought he was calling them retarded for arguing over who has the larger Muslim penis (and the better Google-fu).

Adammon said:

I thought he was calling them retarded for arguing over who has the larger Muslim penis (and the better Google-fu).

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That was my take also.

Sorry guys, maybe thats what he meant but it sure isn't what he said. Go re-read his last post where he makes himself very clear. It doesn't matter if he was talking about 2 users here or all of humanity, we don't allow that kind of trolling for either. His position is fine, but his way of getting it across is not tolerated here.

Chazwozel said:

Uh, I wasn't trolling.

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Haha! Oh man, Chaz is such a kidder. A lot of the time, it's harder piecing through sarcasm in text, but Chaz just knows how to make it clear with that "Uh" at the beginning, and yet it's STILL hilarious.

Damn, that Chaz. He's one of a kind. Phew, lots of laughs.

Espy said:

Sorry guys, maybe thats what he meant but it sure isn't what he said. Go re-read his last post where he makes himself very clear. It doesn't matter if he was talking about 2 users here or all of humanity, we don't allow that kind of trolling for either. His position is fine, but his way of getting it across is not tolerated here.

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So, I when can I start a bible e-peen quoting battle with you?

Chazwozel;328644][QUOTE=Espy said:

Sorry guys, maybe thats what he meant but it sure isn't what he said. Go re-read his last post where he makes himself very clear. It doesn't matter if he was talking about 2 users here or all of humanity, we don't allow that kind of trolling for either. His position is fine, but his way of getting it across is not tolerated here.

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So, I when can I start a bible e-peen quoting battle with you?[/QUOTE]

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Beat THAT!

Here we go again!

Dave;328653][QUOTE=Chazwozel;328644][QUOTE=Espy said:

Sorry guys, maybe thats what he meant but it sure isn't what he said. Go re-read his last post where he makes himself very clear. It doesn't matter if he was talking about 2 users here or all of humanity, we don't allow that kind of trolling for either. His position is fine, but his way of getting it across is not tolerated here.

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So, I when can I start a bible e-peen quoting battle with you?[/QUOTE]

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Beat THAT![/QUOTE]


8=D :smug: DOH!

Chazwozel;328644][QUOTE=Espy said:

Sorry guys, maybe thats what he meant but it sure isn't what he said. Go re-read his last post where he makes himself very clear. It doesn't matter if he was talking about 2 users here or all of humanity, we don't allow that kind of trolling for either. His position is fine, but his way of getting it across is not tolerated here.

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So, I when can I start a bible e-peen quoting battle with you?[/QUOTE]

PFff. Whenever you want, but I warn you, I can copy and paste like a muthatrucker.

Sorry for the late reply... travelling.... Anyway, seems that you've been following what is mentioned in the Hadith, just not knowing it-

Amorous Eyes said:

You said: "the prostation HAS BEEN THE SAME, since Muhammed".
I said: "the prostation HAS BEEN THE SAME, since Muhammed".

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But you said "the Hadith" (which is what was used by everyone to relate how Muhammed prayed) is not necessary, even though its the number one source of Sunnah, and the Qran instructed us to follow his example.

I even added (that you for some reason removed) that we use the SHADOWS cast by the sun to determine prayer times. EXACTLY as you said that 1 billion Muslims do. Somehow you ignored that fact.

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And where did one get the shadow position?

Not in the Qran. If you follow the positions of the shadow, you are following the prophet's instructions, which are recorded in the Hadith. All Mosques, everywhere use it.

You cant deny the Hadith, then go to the Mosque at the call of Adzan, which was called at a time as instructed through the Hadith.

JCM said:

In theology we call that in Portuguese \\\\"allowances\\\\". Take any religious course in Islam/Christianity or Judaism and they'll teach you that.
God's rules changed over time. In Abraham's time, one could have countless concubines and wives. Solomon had hundreds of wives.. In Adam's time, siblings could have sex with each other.
So with every time God sent down a prophet, he adapted his rules to the growing world, with Islam supposedly the last one before doomsay (however, Christians believe that there will be one more set of rules when Jesus comes back)

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This is not contradicting anything I have said, in fact, quite the opposite. I stated, several times, that the Quran listed all the CHANGES made to the laws that were already in effect as well as adding new ones or removing old ones.

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Which means Islam today and prayer today =/= Abraham's prayer.

Just like the prayer in Mecca at the time of Muhammed to the statues were nothing like Islamic prayer.

Anyway, it seems you follow some instructions that were not in the Qran, that are the Sunnah and taken from the Hadith, so this is pretty fultile.

My suggestion is reading up the original Sirohtul Nabiah compilations, they are very good at detailing every ritual, saying and thing a Muslim does, whether its in prayer, rituals or sayings, and shows the exact Hadith and Qranic ayat which this was based on, it'll enlighten a lot on the subject.

Chaz said:

Retarded

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My apologies, but seeing you dont even know something as simple as Catholic marriage rules, I'd rather not comment about this.

Your DARE!?!?

ALLLAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll raise you a Dirka Dirka muhamed jihad.

Pity, I really wanted to get a source behind the accusation that Hadith (which are compilations of the prophets sayings and the base for Sunnah) are "Chinese Whispers", 10 years studying Islam, 5 doing Islamic theology, reading up on the two divides and 12 mazhabs, all the google-fu in the world, and this still the first time I've ever heard of it.