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So...I fear I have gone wrong somewhere and I don't know how.

Jet gets angry, really angry, when told no. He hits and scratches and throws things. I have bruises up and down my arms and he has just now clocked me in the face.

He also hit the two month old baby with a glass coke bottle from the recycling when I began to fed her while he was still screaming at me.

Needless to say he is now in hi as room.

These incidents are rare but when they do happen they are upsetting and hurtful.

He was recently diagnosed with ADHD of a severe kind but my husband and rest of family are against meds for it.

I feel so lost right now. I feel let I am growing to hate someone I love and that is scarey.

I do not have children, so I cannot speak from experience, but IMO physical attacks are the tipping point. "Rest of family" be damned, if this continues as is, it may only end in tragedy.

ADHD? Did you double check that analysis? There are certain situations or health conditions that may cause temporary behaviors in a child that seem like ADHD.

I don't have any info/advice, but I hope things look up. Knock on as many doors that you need to until you get the answer that solves (or allays) the issue.

Jay said:

ADHD? Did you double check that analysis? There are certain situations or health conditions that may cause temporary behaviors in a child that seem like ADHD.

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He was observed through a team through the hospital and in a extensive home visit. He was also seen by a doctor specializing in it (and has adhd himself). Coupled with my own reading I feel pretty confident in the assessment.

If he's posing a danger to your other child, your husband needs to consider that medication might be necessary.

And fuck what family thinks; what the fuck do they know any more than the busybodies on the street? It's yours and his kid; it's up to the two of you.

I hate to say this, though, but you've described incidents of your husband having anger fits and getting violent before. While he may not have demonstrated that on the body of you or another person, Jet can learn the action and not tell the difference between a wall and a human when in this kind of tantrum.

LittleSin said:

He was observed through a team through the hospital and in a extensive home visit. He was also seen by a doctor specializing in it (and has adhd himself). Coupled with my own reading I feel pretty confident in the assessment.

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I have a friend with a child with ADHD. What they went with was behavioral therapy with child medications. As the child got more therapy, lower medication doses were used.

ADHD is treated differently for every child.... and expect a long gradual process. It took her a good year before it started really making a difference.

My sympathies friend. Take it one day at a time.

First, you aren't doing anything wrong, and your feelings of anger/hate are natural. Don't feel bad for having them, and don't blame yourself.

Second, whatever I, or anyone else tells you, take with a huge grain of salt. Every child is different, every parent is different, every situation is different, and there's no "one right way" to deal with any particular issue. What worked for someone else may, in fact, work for your child but might not work for you. You need to find the solution that works for your family and your child, and while I know you're willing to do what it takes, don't discount your needs or your family's needs in an all-consuming effort to solve his needs. There should (and will be) a balance - keep looking and trying until you find it.

That being said, Jet is at a stage in his life where he is going to be this way. He's pushing, very hard, at boundaries you've set in place to see where the boundaries really are. Not just the boundaries where you'll say, "please don't do that" but the boundaries where you'll actually take action.

Coupled with ADHD and the mental inability of children his age to remember something that's not repeated a bazillion times, and you've got a long struggle ahead of you.

I don't think I can give you specific tactics that you don't already know. When my children go through this we simply do escalation of punishments. Time out the first time, go to bed the second time. I think we've done holding less than 5 times over all our children, but we keep that option available.

But we've not had to deal with ADHD. We've got two clearly on the autism scale, and 5 that are, insofar as we are aware "normal" (whatever that means). So I'm not sure that I can help you much. But here's a few reminders anyway:

Time

Children who seem to be struggling with issues may improve with more time and attention from their caregivers, or even just watching them more closely. I've had a few prolonged issues (ie, hitting, biting, or even just undesired behaviors like sucking on their shirt) where simply being nearby and observing them during their playtime has resolved the issue. But it takes a long time, and you have to pay attention so you can say, "You seem to be getting mad. What is making you mad? Why is it making you mad? What can you do to not be mad?" when they start going down the path that leads to the undesired behavior.

Constant observation is impossible, but like potty training, looking for the advance signs of a meltdown and teaching them what the beginning of that path feels like, how to notice it, and giving them the tools to deal with it can sometimes help.

Consistency

Boundary pushing is common at every age, but it changes over time. Telling them what the punishment is every time they do something undesired, and following through every time, and being absolutely consistent every time will help them solidify the boundary. They may continue to bang against it, but in my experience it doesn't take too many instances (particularly if the punishments escalate) for them to decide that this boundary isn't worth pushing, and to try somewhere else.

If they start a new behavior which you haven't set a rule for, try to avoid simply picking a punishment out of thin air while you're still in the moment. If you can, discuss it with them and see if you can both agree to a punishment for that misbehavior when you are both calm, after some time. I've found that once apart from the situation that caused the meltdown my children are actually pretty hard on themselves, so this is an opportinuty to put things in perspective and choose a consequence that fits the problem. Hitting a sibling, for instance, might require them to play with that sibling, allowing that sibling to choose what to play (or for very small siblings, teaching them how to entertain the sibling and make them laugh).

While I focus on undesired behaviors and resulting punishments, this applies to sadness and other disappointments. Helping them develop a toolset for noticing and dealing with overwhelming feelings requires a consistent process and approach until they eventually learn to notice an impending meltdown and try to resolve it themselves.

Discussion/awareness

Talking things through with them after they've calmed down and the punishment (if any) is done can help both you and them figure out what happened when both of you are calm and can look at the issue from a different perspective. Yes, saying "No hitting! Go sit on the stairs", communicates that the behavior is bad, but they cannot learn while in the heat of the moment. Waiting until they've calmed down, asking them to express their feelings, validating their feelings, then asking them how they might be able to approach the problem and resolve their feelings without melting down will make a significantly better impact on their learning to deal with something than the punishment itself ever will.

As far as medicating ADHD, it is true that it's overdiagnosed, and overmedicated in the US today. That doesn't mean that your child, in your case, doesn't need medication.

For my part, a meltdown or two a week isn't an issue for me. If that's the way they want to be, we can deal with it.

If it's daily or more than one meltdown a day, and my normal techniques aren't demonstrating improvement, then I'm going to find and accept medical help. Keep in mind that this is also a very long, difficult process - which is why I'll try regular techniques first. You don't just put them on meds and expect everything to be good, you try out a medication, then observe the results, and report back. The medication is adjusted, and you observe and report back. Due to the workload of most doctors this can take a very, very long time, and during that time the child will continue to change as well, so it really never ends. Unfortunately a lot of parents want a "quick fix" and so doctors overmedicate, and parents never pursue adjustments or alterations as their child grows. At best the doctor might see them once a year and do a quick follow up, but it's rarely enough.

Lastly, no matter what else happens, express your love as often as you can to them. A hug as they walk by, please and thank you when you ask them to do something, "I love you" many times a day, etc. You're both going through a rough time, and reassurances that regardless of their behavior and your earlier reactions you still love them will be useful in the long run.

My cousin is going through this too. She's a really good mom, but one of her sons is one of the angriest kids I've ever seen. Sweet one moment, and a ball of fury the next. Sometimes it's just in them regardless of how they are raised. It's not your fault. Remember that any time you spend wondering how/when you went wrong is time better spent coming up with ways to help Jet now.

Right now your boy's wellness trumps your husband's feelings. And frankly, it's not his family's business at all. They got their shot to raise a kid and now it's time for them to back the hell off. (I'm bringing feelings of people I know into this--busybodies who make parents' lives miserable, and that's what colored those comments....)

None of that's a real solution, but I with you and your adorable boy all the best. If he ends up needing some kind of medication/therapy, I recommend fighting tooth and nail to make that happen, regardless of who disagrees. I hope things get better for y'all soon.

If you don't mind my asking, is there any corporal punishment in your house?

Right now you and Blue have to take into consideration the fact that Jet is physically capable of causing the baby serious harm. Even though these violent outbursts are rare who is to say if he will attack a school mate or teacher? Your husband's family are not part of this decision. I think he may be afraid of the stigma that comes with such a diagnosis. Behavioral therapy can help. In combination with medication it can make a real difference. Maybe if you research some information about both it can help sway Blue into getting his son help before his behavior is more out of control.

I have no advice, but a lot of sympathy. Hope it gets better for you.

Being childless I feel unqualified to offer advice in this matter, but I feel, much like previous posters, that physical violence and the risk of more, especially when directed towards Jet's little sister (congrats on that, BTW), would trump any kind of misgivings about medication.

Regardless, I hope things start to look up soon. Whatever decision you wind up taking, I'm sure it'll be the right one.

LittleSin said:

He was recently diagnosed with ADHD of a severe kind but my husband and rest of family are against meds for it.

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I say this as someone who spent almost 20 years on ADHD meds: GET THE FUCKING MEDS. If your son is anything like I was, the loss of control he has is something that bothers him too. I literally used to light fires and break things out of sheer impulse, knowing full well I'd get in trouble for it... and I'd cry alone, unable to understand why I was doing this really destructive shit. We didn't get me onto it until I was like 7 or 8 and it made a huge amount of difference.

AshburnerX said:

I say this as someone who spent almost 20 years on ADHD meds: GET THE FUCKING MEDS. If your son is anything like I was, the loss of control he has is something that bothers him too. I literally used to light fires and break things out of sheer impulse, knowing full well I'd get in trouble for it... and I'd cry alone, unable to understand why I was doing this really destructive shit. We didn't get me onto it until I was like 7 or 8 and it made a huge amount of difference.

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I had ADD, this a thousand times this, for some people with the AD's its like fucking magic!

I want to thank everyone or the advice in this thread. My lap top has broken again so all I have is this teensy kobo tablet. Its a pain to write in.

Jet is going to see one more doctor at his fathers request, mainly to double check the prescribed dosage, then we will be starting.

wish us luck

Luck.

--Patrick

LittleSin said:

I want to thank everyone or the advice in this thread. My lap top has broken again so all I have is this teensy kobo tablet. Its a pain to write in.

Jet is going to see one more doctor at his fathers request, mainly to double check the prescribed dosage, then we will be starting.

wish us luck

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I would also echo Jay's mention of therapy. Too often psychiatric conditions are perceived as something either to simply talk out, or to medicate, but rarely both. Medical literature indicates that a combination of these approaches works out for the best: in a nutshell, the medication acts to help keep the symptoms of it under control and can help the therapy have a better effect.

Wish you the best of luck, though. *Hugs!*

I totally concur with the sentiment that medication alone is not the way to go. I think that most people view medication as a magic bullet that makes everything better, but it should always be coupled with counseling, particularly because a psychologist who has regular sessions with the patient is going to be able to react more quickly and reliably to needed changes in dosages and such.

How old is Jet? Serious inquiry. You mentioned your husband has anger issues and shows it around the house. I'm sorry to be blunt, but apples don't fall far from the tree. I hope he's seeking help with that because it pretty much sounds like your son is picking up the idea that rage is the proper way to handle things. I agree with everything Steinman is saying, but...

As far as ADHD diagnosis goes, I'm an ever long skeptic - especially with younger than school-age kids, so I can empathize with your family's hesitations. Moreover, Children are hyper shits. If later on it's causing issues in school then by all means consider it, but personally I think non-hyperactive Kindergartners are the ones with something wrong. Having worked in Pharma for a while now, I don't even want to get into the politics of our over-medicated society, and the amount of stupids working in the industry that make and test your medicine. Let's just say I second guess taking Tylenol anymore.

Considering that ADHD is highly heritable, it is possible that Blue's anger issues could be a result of undiagnosed ADHD and that Jet received a predisposition to the disorder from him.

ADHD is, in most cases, of familial origin. Parents with ADHD have a better than 50% chance of having a child with ADHD, and about 25% of children with ADHD have parents who meet the formal diagnostic criteria for ADHD.[83] Twin studies have placed the heritability of ADHD in the range of 80%.[84] In a longitudinal twin study examining the size of genetic and environmental effects on ADHD behaviors based on maternal report at the ages of 3, 7, 10, and 12 years, the estimate of heritability was nearly 75% at each age, with hyperactivity at age 3 years being somewhat less related to later inattention and inattention at age 7 years being quite stable. (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/495640_3)

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I am not an advocate for medicating children on a whim and I believe there are cases where the diagnosis of ADHD (among other disorders) are knee-jerk reactions to kids who have behavioral issues instead of a true disorder. However, Jet's been seen by a hospital team, observed in the home environment, and been to a specialist in the field. Now they are seeing yet another doctor. This is not a GP slapping a label on a kid who can't sit still.

WasabiPoptart said:

Considering that ADHD is highly heritable, it is possible that Blue's anger issues could be a result of undiagnosed ADHD and that Jet received a predisposition to the disorder from him.



I am not an advocate for medicating children on a whim and I believe there are cases where the diagnosis of ADHD (among other disorders) are knee-jerk reactions to kids who have behavioral issues instead of a true disorder. However, Jet's been seen by a hospital team, observed in the home environment, and been to a specialist in the field. Now they are seeing yet another doctor. This is not a GP slapping a label on a kid who can't sit still.

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I was not aware of the extensive diagnostics involved. Big fan of the second opinion option too. Well either way, good luck to the family. I hope this is all just a phase in your lives that will eventually pass over with the right course of action. Perhaps Blue should get tested as well? That might further help things out? I stand firm about behavioral queues picked up by children through their parents. For example, I'm a talker. I excel in the fine art of small talk, and can make best friends on a bus going home. My daughter never shuts up.

It might be worth looking into a therapist who does focused child or "play" therapy as well.

Mathias said:

I stand firm about behavioral queues picked up by children through their parents. For example, I'm a talker. I excel in the fine art of small talk, and can make best friends on a bus going home. My daughter never shuts up.

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That's true. You can't entirely discount environmental factors when it comes to behavior. Kids model what their parents and caregivers do. Your daughter is a talker like you. My kids have certain expressions, both in posture and tone of voice, that clearly came from me. There is a bit of both nature and nurture in everything about us.

Just wanted to update!

We decided to hold off a little longer on the meds after getting a second opinion. It was suggested we waited until he was in kindergarten a few months and have a classroom observation. So far, he has been doing very well! His shitty attitude has really improved with kindergarten so I am wondering if not being able to keep up with how fast and inquisitive he is was a big factor in his problems.

I have gotten a call twice from the teacher but it was mostly due to bus incidents. I'll probably detail one in the random crap thread because it was amusing to me. He had personal space issues and some kids don't like his touchy nature or his big imagination, so I've had to talk to him about that.

Fingers crossed!

LittleSin said:

Just wanted to update!

We decided to hold off a little longer on the meds after getting a second opinion. It was suggested we waited until he was in kindergarten a few months and have a classroom observation. So far, he has been doing very well! His shitty attitude has really improved with kindergarten so I am wondering if not being able to keep up with how fast and inquisitive he is was a big factor in his problems.

I have gotten a call twice from the teacher but it was mostly due to bus incidents. I'll probably detail one in the random crap thread because it was amusing to me. He had personal space issues and some kids don't like his touchy nature or his big imagination, so I've had to talk to him about that.

Fingers crossed!

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I will be watching with interest, since so much of this seems to parallel our experience.

--Patrick

Y'all might want to listen to this podcast. Not that it will solve your problems, but maybe it will help in some way, even if it's just hearing other stories.

To be fair, you wouldn't expect the spawn of Chulhu to be well behaved.

For serious, though, I hope it works out for you.

Your experience is sounding like a lot like what we went through with Rhiannon... as soon as she got to Pre-K, a lot of her energy was expended in class, so by the time we got her at 3:30, she was ready to behave like a human being for a while.

Of course, she's also become the Spawn of Nurgle since being exposed to classroom germs, but that's a rant for another time...


Glad to hear that so many of his anger issues appear to be being resolved! The personal space thing will work itself out as he learns that not everyone is as comfortable as he is with being up close and personal.

LittleSin said:

So...I fear I have gone wrong somewhere and I don't know how.

Jet gets angry, really angry, when told no. He hits and scratches and throws things. I have bruises up and down my arms and he has just now clocked me in the face.

He also hit the two month old baby with a glass coke bottle from the recycling when I began to fed her while he was still screaming at me.

Needless to say he is now in hi as room.

These incidents are rare but when they do happen they are upsetting and hurtful.

He was recently diagnosed with ADHD of a severe kind but my husband and rest of family are against meds for it.

I feel so lost right now. I feel let I am growing to hate someone I love and that is scarey.

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I know this is an older post, but as a mother who is going through similar situ with my daughter (Eevie, 2.5 years) how are things now and what did you DSO? I'm trying to invoke gentle attachment parent likw ideas, but my kid isn't as anti hit as me (she's so violent lately!)

I am interested in how things developed, as well.

--Patrick

Also interested.

He has been doing better. He hasn't been hitting and throwing things. He has opted for copping an attitude, though.

However, I am seeing a big difference as he continues with school. We have also put him in swimming and try to get him out as much as possible which seems to help with his pent up energy and tenacity. His favourite outtings are places like the museum where he can ask questions or places where he can touch an interact with things.

He and his father still butt heads...but Blue is working on it. They are both willful people that need things done their way so Blue is learning a whole knew skill: "compromise".

I haven't done the meds yet. It's still an option but, hey, lets not rush.

Whoops. Wrong thread.

Also interested, though; hope all's well.