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(CNN) -- Grace, Kara and Trichelle were created to fill a void for young black girls who for so long have been playing with dolls that don't look like them. The new black Barbies released by Mattel have fuller lips, curlier hair and other features that the company says more accurately represent African-American women.

Some have cheered the new dolls. Others jeered them, saying they're not black enough.

"I love the black Barbie. It's about time," Jua Simpson said on CNN's iReport, a user-generated news community. "But the hair is still a step backwards, since most of our hair is not straight and light brown."

Others disagree with critics who say the dolls should have had more natural black hairstyles, such as afros or braids.

"Many people have criticized the dolls for either having hair that's too long or too straight, but I have long, straight hair that I straightened. But it's my hair and a part of me," said Tanisa Zoe Samuel, an African-American iReporter from the Turks and Caicos, in the Caribbean. "Black women come in all shades, shapes and varieties that there is just no way to capture everyone with three dolls." iReport.com: Samuel shares her thoughts on the new Barbie

The dolls were created by Stacy McBride-Irby, an African-American who watched her daughter play with dolls and wanted to create a doll that looked more like her.

McBride-Irby said she has heard the criticism, but she also has received many kudos.

"They mean so much to me because they did come from a positive place," McBride-Irby said. "My daughter loves the dolls. I've had dads thank me for creating this line of dolls that represent their little girls. These dolls are for girls all over the world."

This is not the first time Mattel has released an ethnic doll that drew criticism. See photos of the black Barbie dolls »

In 1997, Mattel collaborated with cookie maker Nabisco to create Oreo Fun Barbie. The black version of the doll, which sported an Oreo-shaped purse, was criticized by some who noted that "Oreo" is a derogatory term in the black community. The word is used to describe someone who is perceived as black on the outside and white on the inside.

For some, the talk about dolls is not just child's play. Some think early play with dolls can affect a girl's self-esteem later in life.
Actress Nia Long, who appears in comedian Chris Rock's new documentary, "Good Hair," recently talked about the issue on CNN.

"Historically, the Afrocentric features have not been celebrated," Long said. "This makes us question the integrity of our beauty standard for ourselves."
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/10/21/black.barbies.irpt/index.html

at least they're not claiming the dolls are stereotypes?

all I got sorry.

And Disney is soon to put out a deeply tanned Princess that they are calling black. No, it's not perfect but it's at least a step in the right direction.

Dave said:

And Disney is soon to put out a deeply tanned Princess that they are calling black. No, it's not perfect but it's at least a step in the right direction.

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Why don't they just do a doll of the Princess from their upcoming movie, the Princess and the Frog? She's clearly black.

AshburnerX;280306][quote=Dave said:

And Disney is soon to put out a deeply tanned Princess that they are calling black. No, it's not perfect but it's at least a step in the right direction.

Click to expand...

Why don't they just do a doll of the Princess from their upcoming movie, the Princess and the Frog? She's clearly black.[/QUOTE]

AshburnerX;280306][quote=Dave said:

And Disney is soon to put out a deeply tanned Princess that they are calling black. No, it's not perfect but it's at least a step in the right direction.

Click to expand...

Why don't they just do a doll of the Princess from their upcoming movie, the Princess and the Frog? She's clearly black.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure that that's what Dave meant, although I disagree with him. Tiana looks black and has a black voice actress, and the entire setting is in the Jazz Era of New Orleans, a time and place dominated by black culture. I don't think John Lasseter is just pandering.

I agree, and I'm looking forward to the movie.

Now I only have one question. These dolls... is there a badunkadunk?

People are complaining that they're not "black enough"?

Yes, because Barbie dolls look so much like all white people. You know, because all white girls are blonde and tan and have D-cup boobs.

HowDroll said:

People are complaining that they're not "black enough"?

Yes, because Barbie dolls look so much like all white people. You know, because all white girls are blonde and tan and have D-cup boobs.

Click to expand...

Don't forget about the lack of genitalia and job stability.

Denbrought;280438][quote=HowDroll said:

People are complaining that they're not "black enough"?

Yes, because Barbie dolls look so much like all white people. You know, because all white girls are blonde and tan and have D-cup boobs.

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Don't forget about the lack of genitalia and job stability.[/QUOTE]

Or of intestines, judging by that waist line...

Of course if they made it "black enough" they'd be labeled racist for it.
Next idiocy in the news please?

Well, okay. Here's the thing. In this day and age I think the doll-makers should become more socially conscious of the fact that, sociologically, we are assimilating very important ideals into young girl's minds. You've all been inundated with being told that Barbie Dolls force girls to view attitudes of beauty within the confines of her hard plastic, big-tittied, slim waistline, blonde figure. From their first doll (amongst seeing super models and watching Television, movies, etc) that this is what is /beautiful/.

The duality, of course, being that if those dolls represent beauty, and they fail to represent that doll, then they do not represent beauty. The represent other: ugly.

Race brings up another issue--if you grew up black, and a girl, not only were you assimilated into the Barbie consciousness of what beauty is, there is no possible way you can fit the skin tone and color therein. We are a society which has long valued beauty in a euro-centric, white sense. And, the majority of black sex icons are the ones that mostly resemble white features despite their skin color: see, Tyra Banks. See: Halley Barry. See: Beoncé.

The point being, as a society we unconciously develop a social message of beauty to young girls through things like Barbie dolls. No girl is safe from Barbie's unnatural features, but girls of a different skin color are doubly-subjected. They can't take racial pride in their own features and beauties; they are stocked up against the tried-and-true, THIS IS WHAT A WOMAN SHOULD BE social norm.

If you have time, you should youtube the short movie "A Girl Like Me". It's not exactly definitive evidence, but it's a short ten minute movie done by a black highschool girl about the subject of black beauty. It's interesting, and it definitely came to mind while thinking about the dolls.

The road is long, but it's worth traveling.

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/pub...ew_doll_test_produces_ugly_results_2919.shtml

Hopefully this one small step (as bad as barbie is in general) will be counted as progress, and not shot down as quickly as so many other similar attempts by toy manufacturers.

These kids need to learn that they are beautiful, and if a 'beautiful according to society' doll can at least help remove the association that black=ugly then that's one more barrier that is removed, or at least shortened.

-Adam

aaaugh fuck you stienman i was going to post a link about the doll test >:I

but yeah it's pretty fucked up still

here's a video!

Yup. Totally looks black in this movie.

http://movies.yahoo.com/photos/movie-stills/gallery/1785/the-princess-and-the-frog-stills#photo1

Dave said:

Yup. Totally looks black in this movie.

http://movies.yahoo.com/photos/movie-stills/gallery/1785/the-princess-and-the-frog-stills#photo1

Click to expand...

Are you being sarcastic or serious?

She really does look african american to me

Bowielee;281029][quote=Dave said:

Yup. Totally looks black in this movie.

http://movies.yahoo.com/photos/movie-stills/gallery/1785/the-princess-and-the-frog-stills#photo1

Click to expand...

Are you being sarcastic or serious?

She really does look african american to me[/QUOTE]

I'm being serious. In all but one of the stills she's just a white girl with color. yet the bad guy is a stereotypical voodoo priest style guy and the prince is STILL a strapping white guy!

Maybe they're thinking it would be nice to have an interracial relationship in a Disney movie?

And I've seen black girls who look like that. I really don't see the problem,

Cajungal said:

Maybe they're thinking it would be nice to have an interracial relationship in a Disney movie?

And I've seen black girls who look like that. I really don't see the problem,

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They are making a big deal about the race of the girl and yet they are still doing everything the way they used to. the black girl is more like a white girl, the prince is the same as always and the villain is over the top bad stereotype.

In this case I'd say that the complaints that she's not black enough may actually hold weight.

Cajungal said:

I really don't see the problem,

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Lots of white people don't.

"Oh, I know a black girl that's kind of fairer skinned!" Well yeah, they're /out/ there, and we use that as reinforcing the universal social-norm. That Disney princess, though she may be a small step, is still saying to the darker skinned black girls that they still can't be a princess. That they have to bleach their skin to a lighter color to be more accepted.

Which, of course, is called "colorism" within people of race. And people do actually bleach their skin to be more white. No, not just Micheal Jackson. I'm talking about highschool girls.

Here, I found it. Just watch this...

Hey that's the video I posted a link to!

Thanks, Juice. I thought I was going to have to be a one man show on this one.

Yeah, I mean, look at her hair, particularly.

Dave;281032][quote=Bowielee;281029][quote=Dave said:

Yup. Totally looks black in this movie.

http://movies.yahoo.com/photos/movie-stills/gallery/1785/the-princess-and-the-frog-stills#photo1

Click to expand...

Are you being sarcastic or serious?

She really does look african american to me[/quote]

I'm being serious. In all but one of the stills she's just a white girl with color.[/QUOTE]

I'm no expert in facial features, but the face is a completely different shape. The cheeks are wider and higher. The lips and mouth are wider and fuller. In side shots you'll see that the cranium is either pushed back, or the mouth/nose/face are pushed forward. The forehead is rounder.

If you made silhouette outlines of the side and front views of this character's head and other disney characters I'd bet you'd get a much higher than 50% rate of people choosing correctly whether the character is black or white.

I'd google african facial characteristics, but I just know I could spend hours learning about another interesting topic, so I'll leave that to you. Let me know what you find if you do - especially as it relates to this case.

Obviously she's not, for lack of a better phrase, of full-blooded african descent. But she's hardly "a white heroine with a dark skin tone."

And if I'm using the wrong phrases, words, etc I apologize to anyone who's offended and hope I receive correction - I have no idea what the connotation of certain words usage is in the black community.

-Adam

stienman;281056][quote=Dave;281032][quote=Bowielee;281029][quote=Dave said:

Yup. Totally looks black in this movie.

http://movies.yahoo.com/photos/movie-stills/gallery/1785/the-princess-and-the-frog-stills#photo1

Click to expand...

Are you being sarcastic or serious?

She really does look african american to me[/quote]

I'm being serious. In all but one of the stills she's just a white girl with color.[/QUOTE]

I'm no expert in facial features.
-Adam[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are.

Of course a movie about upper middle class blacks in New Orleans, can not have a fared skinned black girl in the lead. Because we all know that the Creoles are so dark... :eyeroll:

Dave;281032][quote=Bowielee;281029][quote=Dave said:

Yup. Totally looks black in this movie.

http://movies.yahoo.com/photos/movie-stills/gallery/1785/the-princess-and-the-frog-stills#photo1

Click to expand...

Are you being sarcastic or serious?

She really does look african american to me[/QUOTE]

I'm being serious. In all but one of the stills she's just a white girl with color. yet the bad guy is a stereotypical voodoo priest style guy and the prince is STILL a strapping white guy![/QUOTE]

FYI, that means that you were being sarcastic.

I kind of see where you're getting at, and I do agree about the racist looking voodoo villain, however, I think that you're stretching with the lead character. I look at that and I see a black girl, not a white one. I think that more than anything is what's important that they actually DO have a black girl as the princess, rather than a white one.

It's up most of the time, but it looks curly. I'd have to see it down.

She's still pretty dark. And I'm with Adam, her nose, lips, and the shape of her head look like some black women's. I wasn't trying to be anecdotal. Whether she's supposed to be a mix or not, it's obvious that she's black.

As for the video, yeah that's really sad, especially the part with the baby dolls. But it focused on that experiment for 2 minutes or so. We know nothing about the children's backgrounds or any other questions/background information. It sucks they they think that, but above the media, it's family and friends' job to let them know they're beautiful. That's how it has to be with everyone. Even people who fit the so-called "standard" doubt themselves. And I know I'm white, so it's different for me, even though I've been a short, fat, olive-skinned brunette who grew up around tall, thin, fair-haired girls who didn't have to bleach their upper lips... anyway, all I'm saying is, while I don't struggle with heritage and background issues, I understand the feeling that society is telling me I'm ugly. It sucks, but that's just something most regular people have to deal with, no matter where they come from.

What's also sad is that women want to be 'princesses' at all, but that's another story. So, poor choice of words, I guess. It's not like I don't understand that there's a problem. It's just that there are so many bigger problems than people not feeling beautiful. (EDIT: Feeling far from your heritage is another story.) A lot of the girls in this video seemed damn smart and strong enough to find beauty on their own. And I'm sorry if no one's tried to help them with that, but you can't depend on the media to help you, period.

And sixpack, that's totally true.

Maybe they'll do a full-on African princess one day. If they did, I think the story of Mufaro's beautiful daughters would be perfect. That's a lesson women need today.

I bet the girl will be green most of the movie...

Silver Jelly said:

I bet the girl will be green most of the movie...

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From everything I've heard, you win that bet.

Yeah, it's nice if a mom or a friend calls someone beautiful. But when the world around you treats a certain form of beauty as a /standard/...you get problems.

You can say you're as beautiful as an individual as you want, but the world at large won't agree with you. There's a social-norm that's programmed into every single one of us, and it persists.

It's not the end of the world, but it's interesting to examine. And, more important, people should note that it exists, in some shape or form.

About that experiment--well yeah, it's not official science. Also, you could, by dualities, say that the child assumes that the white doll is good THEREFORE the other doll is black. But I don't necessarily buy that. The other lines of questioning really call into question the social standards that are apparent.

Thin, busty, blonde-haired, blue-eyed girls are beautiful. We've projected this norm to the world for ages. Just because we're not segregated doesn't mean that certain values haven't been shelved. We still think that the epitome of beauty are the Barbie dolls of the world.

ElJuski said:

It's not the end of the world, but it's interesting to examine. And, more important, people should note that it exists, in some shape or form.

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Agreed. Wholeheartedly. I guess that this is just the first I've heard of the princess in this movie being "not black enough." Most of what I've heard is positive, and I thought it was pretty great too.

Plus I'm callous about women's body issues in general. I was treated mercilessly when I was young, and I dealt with most of it on my own. So that's a flaw of mine. I think everyone should just step away from the mirror for 2 seconds and get the hell over it, because that's what I had to do.

Also, like sixpack said, you'll see a lot of lighter-skinned black people in New Orleans/Louisiana, because many of them are a mix of many different things. Of course there are the very very dark types of black people, but medium to lighter is more common. I don't know if she's FROM the area or just moved there. It sounds like they're trying to give her a Southern accent, anyway.

Oh, I'm not arguing the princess thing anymore. Wasn't reflecting that.

And yes, people SHOULD step away from the mirror. That's what, as a culture, we need to do. But that's not what's happening. Society is still giving physical aesthetic a really high regard. So it's hard for children to realize they have to step away from the mirror.

Sometimes they pull up their bootstraps, like you did, and got over it, and accepted their own beauty.

Sometimes, however, they can't. And they wreck their lives.

And sometimes it's somewhere in the middle, where people spend insane amounts of money on name brand boots and shirts and makeup and prance around like giving their snatch away to the football star is what makes a girl pretty and great.

ElJuski said:

Sometimes, however, they can't. And they wreck their lives.

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I hate to see that happen. Actually, there are a couple girls at the Charter School where I work. It's pretty much an all-black black school. They don't have issues with their beauty as young, black women. They just all think they're fat when they're all either normal or painfully thin. THIRD GRADERS. I thought they were insane, saying this to a short, stout woman with a pronounced double chin. When I hear it, I try to say something helpful. It's hard when, like you say, they're surrounded by people telling them to fit a certain mold.

And we're just talking about people consciously commiting to these acts. Now factor in the rest of the population that just walks around *believing* it.

But anywho, this long tangent of me bitching is basically to say I support any small steps that toy-makers can do. I don't think we're going to topple all the sociological ails (and inconveniences) with a single action or toy. But it helps, and I'm for it.

The issue around coloring isn't necessarily a Western one. I know Thai women suffer from the same predisposition to appreciating lighter skin over darker skin. Darker skin is associated with working outside, labouring, menial work that pays little while lighter skin is seen as higher class, richer, more 'female'. It was fascinating to hear stories from them about they regularly use bleaching cream and avoid the sun wherever possible. Such a strange dichotomy to see white tourists out sunbathing, and the local Thai women completely covered up.

And who can forget one of the most famous American celebrities was a black man who became a white woman.

Adammon said:

And who can forget one of the most famous American celebrities was a black man who became a white woman.

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That's ignorant.

Dave;281426][quote=Adammon said:

And who can forget one of the most famous American celebrities was a black man who became a white woman.

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That's ignorant.[/QUOTE]

Of what?

Adammon;281429][quote=Dave;281426][quote=Adammon said:

And who can forget one of the most famous American celebrities was a black man who became a white woman.

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That's ignorant.[/QUOTE]

Of what?[/QUOTE]

Of how women look like?

Adammon;281429][quote=Dave;281426][quote=Adammon said:

And who can forget one of the most famous American celebrities was a black man who became a white woman.

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That's ignorant.[/quote]

Of what?[/QUOTE]

Damn it. I was going for South Park.

Nooo! That's ignorant!

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:13 PM ----------

http://images.southparkstudios.com/img/content/news/1918a.jpg

Silver Jelly;281430][quote=Adammon;281429][quote=Dave;281426][quote=Adammon said:

And who can forget one of the most famous American celebrities was a black man who became a white woman.

Click to expand...

That's ignorant.[/QUOTE]

Of what?[/QUOTE]

Of how women look like?[/QUOTE]

I can only hope women look better than