Export thread
Ok...video card sitch kinda solved. Need faster DDR RAM.
#1
KCWM
KCWM
Wow. I feel stupid. Apparently, my wife's computer actually has a PCI-E slot instead of of AGP slot. Everything I can find on the internet regarding model of computer (emachines T5048) and video card (Radeon x1300), along with what ATI Catalyst Control Center is telling me backs that up. I have no idea why I thought it was an AGP video slot. No idea at all. The video card that I thought I moved from my old computer to this one? Still in the old one.
Oh well. I still need to upgrade her RAM from this ancient PC2700 RAM. The mobo will only support up to 2gb of RAM. Like I said, it's an emachines T5048, so I'm not sure what I can upgrade to (it came with PC3200). That will be the deciding factor. Getting her a new video card just became much easier. I will, however, reinstall the CPU cooling fan's thermal paste, as I think I botched that the first time.
Wow. I can't believe I made that mistake. And why in the hell did I buy such a shitty PCI-E card? ugh. Maybe someone has a spare PCI-E card they've upgraded to the latest/greatest that's just lying around. I currently have an nvidia 9800GT in my computer...so something along that line would be great.
Oh well. I still need to upgrade her RAM from this ancient PC2700 RAM. The mobo will only support up to 2gb of RAM. Like I said, it's an emachines T5048, so I'm not sure what I can upgrade to (it came with PC3200). That will be the deciding factor. Getting her a new video card just became much easier. I will, however, reinstall the CPU cooling fan's thermal paste, as I think I botched that the first time.
Wow. I can't believe I made that mistake. And why in the hell did I buy such a shitty PCI-E card? ugh. Maybe someone has a spare PCI-E card they've upgraded to the latest/greatest that's just lying around. I currently have an nvidia 9800GT in my computer...so something along that line would be great.
#2
Garbledina
Garbledina
Upgrade advice for older PC - might be looking to buy from u
I have 4GB of DDR2 RAM that I am not using. (Both are in kits, so 4 sticks total) If you want it, it's yours. PM me your email address or address and I'll ship it out to you when I get the chance in the next week here... I'll send you the tracking number as well, of course.
EDIT: Ah, reading comprehension fail. I don't have DDR RAM. Apologies!
I have 4GB of DDR2 RAM that I am not using. (Both are in kits, so 4 sticks total) If you want it, it's yours. PM me your email address or address and I'll ship it out to you when I get the chance in the next week here... I'll send you the tracking number as well, of course.
EDIT: Ah, reading comprehension fail. I don't have DDR RAM. Apologies!
#3
KCWM
KCWM
Upgrade advice for older PC - might be looking to buy from u
I just checked to make sure and it definitely came with DDR. I appreciate the offer though.
I'm thinking some RAM that isn't almost a decade old will fix some of the problems...but a better, non budget POS card will definitely help, considering the graphics were probably designed with PCI-E in mind.
I just checked to make sure and it definitely came with DDR. I appreciate the offer though.
I'm thinking some RAM that isn't almost a decade old will fix some of the problems...but a better, non budget POS card will definitely help, considering the graphics were probably designed with PCI-E in mind.
#4
PatrThom
PatrThom
Upgrade advice for older PC - might be looking to buy from u
2GB is really plenty for most anything you do in XP, since XP doesn't allow any single running program to use more than 2GB anyway (without tweaking).
The best 'native' AGP card you can buy is the GeForce 6800 Ultra.
The best AGP NVIDIA card you can buy is the GeForce 7800/7900 GS/GT.
The best AGP card of any sort you can buy is the ATI 3850 or ATI 4650/4670.
Upgrading from the X1300 to any of the above will still net you a reasonable increase in performance so long as the P4 processor in that system is multi-core. If not, then it is time to seriously consider moving to a new system. Sorry, no way around that.
--Patrick
2GB is really plenty for most anything you do in XP, since XP doesn't allow any single running program to use more than 2GB anyway (without tweaking).
The best 'native' AGP card you can buy is the GeForce 6800 Ultra.
The best AGP NVIDIA card you can buy is the GeForce 7800/7900 GS/GT.
The best AGP card of any sort you can buy is the ATI 3850 or ATI 4650/4670.
Upgrading from the X1300 to any of the above will still net you a reasonable increase in performance so long as the P4 processor in that system is multi-core. If not, then it is time to seriously consider moving to a new system. Sorry, no way around that.
--Patrick
#5
KCWM
KCWM
Upgrade advice for older PC - might be looking to buy from u
Thanks Patrick. I edited my post shortly after you posted this one. Apparently, it's a PCI-E slot instead. I have no idea why I thought I had an AGP, other than the fact that I bought this computer 4 years ago and likely had it confused with my older computer. Everything I can find systematically, software, and google search wise tells me it's a PCI-E. I thought PCI-E slots were normally white, but this one appears to be black. My mistake. That's why I feel so stupid.PatrThom said:2GB is really plenty for most anything you do in XP, since XP doesn't allow any single running program to use more than 2GB anyway (without tweaking).
The best 'native' AGP card you can buy is the GeForce 6800 Ultra.
The best AGP NVIDIA card you can buy is the GeForce 7800/7900 GS/GT.
The best AGP card of any sort you can buy is the ATI 3850 or ATI 4650/4670.
Upgrading from the X1300 to any of the above will still net you a reasonable increase in performance so long as the P4 processor in that system is multi-core. If not, then it is time to seriously consider moving to a new system. Sorry, no way around that.
--Patrick
#6
TheBrew
TheBrew
I don't think there are any dual-core P4s unless you count the Itaniums.
#7
figmentPez
The Pentium 4 524 is, however, a single-core chip.
figmentPez
There were, sort of. The Pentium D and the Pentium Extreme Edition were both basically two Pentium 4 cores on the same packaging. They were sometimes called Pentium 4 D chips, I think, though it's not their official name.TheBrew said:I don't think there are any dual-core P4s unless you count the Itaniums.
The Pentium 4 524 is, however, a single-core chip.
#8
PatrThom
PatrThom
There's no real color standard to apply to slots. What matters is what they are shaped like. Check out this pic of a freakishly Frankensteinesque card to see what the card edges look like (AGP is the one on the bottom). Here is a picture comparing the two motherboard slots.
Getting faster RAM will not help you at all if your MLB can't run that RAM at the faster speed or lower latency. DDR400/PC3200 is the fastest standard speed you can find for DDR. If the upper limit of your MLB is PC2700/DDR333 (which is only one step below the 400 max), installing faster memory may allow you to set a lower latency (CAS/RTAS), but it will still only run at 333MHz.
According to various websites (here's one) regarding other MLBs based on the same chipset, your motherboard will not support any dual- or quad-core processor. In fact, you already appear to be using the best processor you can get for that chipset. You might be able to eke out a little more performance by turning on HT (HyperThreading) in the BIOS (if it is not already switched on-you can check by seeing if the Task Manager shows 1 or 2 processor graphs), but this won't really give you any additional speed, just a less jerky experience. And while the MLB may support switching up to 800MHz FSB in order to use one of the faster CPUs, I doubt your PSU would handle the increased load.
Two best options, in my opinion. Either replace the machine with something newer (relegate this one to a home server or something), or replace the video card with an HD 4650 for about $50. I wouldn't put any more money into it than that. I don't believe that machine will have the brawn (horsepower nor PSU power) to really make use of any graphics card beefier than that.
--Patrick
Getting faster RAM will not help you at all if your MLB can't run that RAM at the faster speed or lower latency. DDR400/PC3200 is the fastest standard speed you can find for DDR. If the upper limit of your MLB is PC2700/DDR333 (which is only one step below the 400 max), installing faster memory may allow you to set a lower latency (CAS/RTAS), but it will still only run at 333MHz.
According to various websites (here's one) regarding other MLBs based on the same chipset, your motherboard will not support any dual- or quad-core processor. In fact, you already appear to be using the best processor you can get for that chipset. You might be able to eke out a little more performance by turning on HT (HyperThreading) in the BIOS (if it is not already switched on-you can check by seeing if the Task Manager shows 1 or 2 processor graphs), but this won't really give you any additional speed, just a less jerky experience. And while the MLB may support switching up to 800MHz FSB in order to use one of the faster CPUs, I doubt your PSU would handle the increased load.
Two best options, in my opinion. Either replace the machine with something newer (relegate this one to a home server or something), or replace the video card with an HD 4650 for about $50. I wouldn't put any more money into it than that. I don't believe that machine will have the brawn (horsepower nor PSU power) to really make use of any graphics card beefier than that.
--Patrick
#9
KCWM
KCWM
Thanks for the response Patrick.
It can handle PC3200. That's what the computer came with. But it only came with a 500mb stick. I had 2 gigs of the PC2700, so I just installed that. So that sounds like it will be an upgrade, just not a big one, like going from 1g to 2g of RAM.
I intend to replace the computer at some point in time. Right now, that's just not in the budget and I do not feel like selling a guitar to finance it when I could sell a pedal or two to buy some upgrades that WILL work when we do get around to replacing it. I do have a better PSU (450w something or another) in there, though one that only ones 20a at the 12v rail. That's not bad, but it's not enough for some of the top end graphics cards. I just know that the x1300 pro in there now was a shitty budget card before I got it and certainly was at the time I bought it. But, it was better than I had and could handle vanilla and BC World of Warcraft just fine.
I was reading a couple of websites, and I read that most manufacturers' recommendations are above what is actually required to account for generic PSUs (like the one that came in the computer...think it was a 250 or 300w PSU) and that those numbers are a draw on the system as a whole. I might have misunderstood that though...it gets into the more technical stuff that I do not understand as well.
It can handle PC3200. That's what the computer came with. But it only came with a 500mb stick. I had 2 gigs of the PC2700, so I just installed that. So that sounds like it will be an upgrade, just not a big one, like going from 1g to 2g of RAM.
I intend to replace the computer at some point in time. Right now, that's just not in the budget and I do not feel like selling a guitar to finance it when I could sell a pedal or two to buy some upgrades that WILL work when we do get around to replacing it. I do have a better PSU (450w something or another) in there, though one that only ones 20a at the 12v rail. That's not bad, but it's not enough for some of the top end graphics cards. I just know that the x1300 pro in there now was a shitty budget card before I got it and certainly was at the time I bought it. But, it was better than I had and could handle vanilla and BC World of Warcraft just fine.
I was reading a couple of websites, and I read that most manufacturers' recommendations are above what is actually required to account for generic PSUs (like the one that came in the computer...think it was a 250 or 300w PSU) and that those numbers are a draw on the system as a whole. I might have misunderstood that though...it gets into the more technical stuff that I do not understand as well.
#10
PatrThom
PatrThom
You misunderstand. Yes, your computer can 'handle' PC3200, meaning that if you put PC3200 memory in the computer, it will still work. However, unless you are able to adjust the memory speed/timings in the BIOS, the machine will still only use your PC3200 RAM at PC2700 speeds because installing PC3200 RAM will not magically make your memory bus speed increase to DDR400/200MHz. With DDR memory, you can (almost) always use RAM which is rated faster than what your board can handle, but you will still only use it at whatever the maximum speed the board is capable of (for PC2700, that is DDR333/166MHz). It is not the RAM which decides the speed of memory access, instead it is the board. According to AMD's website, the Xpress200 chipset IS capable of running memory at 200MHz, it's just a matter of whether or not eMachines allows you to change that setting in the BIOS. If they do, then by all means, go for it. Just make sure that doing so does not also change your CPU FSB to 800MHz, because your CPU will not be able to handle that speed.
As far as graphics cards, I know the model I recommended is not that spectacular, but since you only have a single-core processor, I think you're going to run into a problem where your processor/CPU is not going to be able to keep up with the demand of the graphics card, ie it will not be able to cook and serve up the graphics as fast as the card will want to eat it. However...if you have indeed upgraded your PSU, then instead let me recommend the $100 HD 4770, which is the current king of bang-for-the-buck. The 4770 may be slightly more than your system can keep fed right now, but it is something you can move to another system later (especially in Crossfire) for some amazing performance.
If you would like to do some more research, may I recommend this recent article which spotlights GPUs in MMORPGs specifically (how lucky is that?). Just remember that the CPU they used for testing is probably 4-6x faster than the one in your machine, so it is better able to keep those graphics cards fed with data, meaning that even if you buy the best card they recommend, you are not going to get anywhere near the same performance on that eMachine.
--Patrick
As far as graphics cards, I know the model I recommended is not that spectacular, but since you only have a single-core processor, I think you're going to run into a problem where your processor/CPU is not going to be able to keep up with the demand of the graphics card, ie it will not be able to cook and serve up the graphics as fast as the card will want to eat it. However...if you have indeed upgraded your PSU, then instead let me recommend the $100 HD 4770, which is the current king of bang-for-the-buck. The 4770 may be slightly more than your system can keep fed right now, but it is something you can move to another system later (especially in Crossfire) for some amazing performance.
If you would like to do some more research, may I recommend this recent article which spotlights GPUs in MMORPGs specifically (how lucky is that?). Just remember that the CPU they used for testing is probably 4-6x faster than the one in your machine, so it is better able to keep those graphics cards fed with data, meaning that even if you buy the best card they recommend, you are not going to get anywhere near the same performance on that eMachine.
--Patrick
#11
KCWM
KCWM
Ah. My assumption was since the computer came stock with PC3200 it would be set up to utilize it. Granted, it IS emachines, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to put in RAM that the computer can't fully utilize, especially only 500mb. And, since it IS upgradeable to 2gb of RAM, one would assume that the bus could handle the two sticks. But, as I said, it IS emachines.
#12
figmentPez
Always check your manual or some other source to see what the requirements are for using RAM in your system. The good news is that your system does support 2 x 1GB, at least according to Crucial's memory advisor.
figmentPez
Depending on what the RAM market was like at the time, 3200 RAM might have been nearly the same price as 2700, and eMachines just purchased 3200 to simplify inventory. However, I don't think that's the case. Crucial says that 3200 is the speed your system needs. So it seems the RAM was running at a different ratio compared to the FSB. When you plugged in the slower RAM, the system probably changed the ratio to accomodate the new RAM. (Either that or it slowed the processor, that seems less likely). The Pentium 4 does love memory bandwidth, but you'd probably see only a few percentage points increase from upgrading the RAM, if indeed your system would automatically adjust the clock ratio to allow the RAM to run at full speed.KCWM said:Granted, it IS emachines, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to put in RAM that the computer can't fully utilize, especially only 500mb.
It's not just eMachines that does stuff like that. A LOT of MoBo manufactuers have put in extra RAM slots that are near impossible to use. I remember when the first dual-channel RAM chipsets came out from nVidia. Most of the boards had four RAM slots but you could only use all four slots if you used single-sided RAM sticks. The thing was, very little memory was (or is) single-sided, and all of that was smaller sizes. It was really only practical to use 2 sticks. They put four slots in to make it look easily upgradeable. There have also been MoBos that need registered or ECC RAM in order to populate all the slots, or ones that drop the RAM speed if you fill more than so many slots.And, since it IS upgradeable to 2gb of RAM, one would assume that the bus could handle the two sticks. But, as I said, it IS emachines.
Always check your manual or some other source to see what the requirements are for using RAM in your system. The good news is that your system does support 2 x 1GB, at least according to Crucial's memory advisor.
#13
PatrThom
(Some time in Google passes...)
Nope, looks like your 524 processor really was designed to run at 533MHz...but hey, guess what? You may be in luck! Several Google searches suggest that the motherboard in your system is actually the Intel D101GGC (or at least 99.6% the same). From this I have learned two things and suspect one more:
-In order for any DDR400 memory to function at full PC3200 speed, a CPU with 800MHz FSB must be installed.
-It is actually pretty likely that your computer would support the installation of one of many CPUs using the 800MHz FSB.
-According to the above link, there is even an outside chance that your MLB could support the Pentium D 805/820 (which are true dual-core CPUs) chips without modification. Unfortunately, they run noticeably slower and hotter than the others, meaning that they would run slower for gaming, but will crush any single-core CPU for things like 3D-rendering, media encoding, or use as a home server.
Based on the above, my recommendation changes slightly:
1) Update your eMachine to the latest BIOS. ($0)
2) Update your ATI graphics and chipset drivers.
2a) Replace the current graphics card with an ATI HD 4770. ($100-$120 - The Sapphire model looks rather tasty)
---wait for cash to recover---
3) Replace CPU with OEM 3.6GHz Intel Pentium 4 661 processor (about $75-$90 these days) purchased from a place with a good, understanding return policy (in case it doesn't work).
3a) On the chance the FSB does not auto-change to 800 once the new processor is installed, set it to 800MHz in the BIOS but make sure memory is still set to 333MHz (it should auto-change).
---IF processor swap was successful, THEN wait for cash to recover, ELSE return processor for refund and stop here---
4) Replace memory with 2x1GB DDR400/PC3200 DIMMs ($70 - try to get quality memory that runs at 2.6V or less)
The model 661 processor surprisingly only generates about 3 more watts of heat even though it runs about 550MHz faster than your current 524, but what's really going to make the difference is combining that with the extra 512MB/sec of bandwidth you will gain after the jump from 533 to 800 FSB. The full tale of the tape looks like this:
Memory bandwidth increases 19%.
CPU speed increases 17%.
Graphics performance increases...300%-900% (Yes, really!) over the X1300 Pro.*
My best estimate? You will see between 20%-25% speed increase in day-to-day tasks, and at a minimum 50%-100% in gaming. If getting double your current frame rate sounds like it would be worth $200-$300 worth of upgrades ($100 of which is for a graphics card you will move to a new machine later), then by all means go for it. Otherwise, put that money towards a new system.
Enjoy. I had fun chasing down all the info, here's hoping you find it useful to help make up your mind.
--Patrick
(*I could not find any good direct comparisons between the X1300 and the HD4770, so I improvised. Tests show the HD4770 performs almost exactly like the HD4850, and then I found a comparison of the HD4850 v. the X1300. Pay attention to the 1280x1024 numbers with 0xAA - these are the ones that better demonstrate the pure GPU v. GPU strength competition rather than being skewed by the vast difference in on-board memory and memory speeds)
PatrThom
This is a possibility. If you check the processor speed, does it show you are really running at 3.06GHz, or something slower? Some chipsets are synchronous, meaning they have to move both the memory and processor speeds up or down at the same time. If so, the PC2700 RAM might have dropped your processor speed from 3.06GHz to only 2.53GHz. If that is the case, getting some good DDR400/PC3200 RAM might make a huge difference.figmentPez said:When you plugged in the slower RAM, the system probably changed the ratio to accomodate the new RAM. (Either that or it slowed the processor, that seems less likely).
(Some time in Google passes...)
Nope, looks like your 524 processor really was designed to run at 533MHz...but hey, guess what? You may be in luck! Several Google searches suggest that the motherboard in your system is actually the Intel D101GGC (or at least 99.6% the same). From this I have learned two things and suspect one more:
-In order for any DDR400 memory to function at full PC3200 speed, a CPU with 800MHz FSB must be installed.
-It is actually pretty likely that your computer would support the installation of one of many CPUs using the 800MHz FSB.
-According to the above link, there is even an outside chance that your MLB could support the Pentium D 805/820 (which are true dual-core CPUs) chips without modification. Unfortunately, they run noticeably slower and hotter than the others, meaning that they would run slower for gaming, but will crush any single-core CPU for things like 3D-rendering, media encoding, or use as a home server.
Based on the above, my recommendation changes slightly:
1) Update your eMachine to the latest BIOS. ($0)
2) Update your ATI graphics and chipset drivers.
2a) Replace the current graphics card with an ATI HD 4770. ($100-$120 - The Sapphire model looks rather tasty)
---wait for cash to recover---
3) Replace CPU with OEM 3.6GHz Intel Pentium 4 661 processor (about $75-$90 these days) purchased from a place with a good, understanding return policy (in case it doesn't work).
3a) On the chance the FSB does not auto-change to 800 once the new processor is installed, set it to 800MHz in the BIOS but make sure memory is still set to 333MHz (it should auto-change).
---IF processor swap was successful, THEN wait for cash to recover, ELSE return processor for refund and stop here---
4) Replace memory with 2x1GB DDR400/PC3200 DIMMs ($70 - try to get quality memory that runs at 2.6V or less)
The model 661 processor surprisingly only generates about 3 more watts of heat even though it runs about 550MHz faster than your current 524, but what's really going to make the difference is combining that with the extra 512MB/sec of bandwidth you will gain after the jump from 533 to 800 FSB. The full tale of the tape looks like this:
Memory bandwidth increases 19%.
CPU speed increases 17%.
Graphics performance increases...300%-900% (Yes, really!) over the X1300 Pro.*
My best estimate? You will see between 20%-25% speed increase in day-to-day tasks, and at a minimum 50%-100% in gaming. If getting double your current frame rate sounds like it would be worth $200-$300 worth of upgrades ($100 of which is for a graphics card you will move to a new machine later), then by all means go for it. Otherwise, put that money towards a new system.
Enjoy. I had fun chasing down all the info, here's hoping you find it useful to help make up your mind.
--Patrick
(*I could not find any good direct comparisons between the X1300 and the HD4770, so I improvised. Tests show the HD4770 performs almost exactly like the HD4850, and then I found a comparison of the HD4850 v. the X1300. Pay attention to the 1280x1024 numbers with 0xAA - these are the ones that better demonstrate the pure GPU v. GPU strength competition rather than being skewed by the vast difference in on-board memory and memory speeds)
#14
Mr_Chaz
Mr_Chaz
Every time I think I'm a computer genius you go and show me how little I really know. Kudos.PatrThom said:This is a possibility. If you check the processor speed, does it show you are really running at 3.06GHz, or something slower? Some chipsets are synchronous, meaning they have to move both the memory and processor speeds up or down at the same time. If so, the PC2700 RAM might have dropped your processor speed from 3.06GHz to only 2.53GHz. If that is the case, getting some good DDR400/PC3200 RAM might make a huge difference.figmentPez said:When you plugged in the slower RAM, the system probably changed the ratio to accomodate the new RAM. (Either that or it slowed the processor, that seems less likely).
(Some time in Google passes...)
Nope, looks like your 524 processor really was designed to run at 533MHz...but hey, guess what? You may be in luck! Several Google searches suggest that the motherboard in your system is actually the Intel D101GGC (or at least 99.6% the same). From this I have learned two things and suspect one more:
-In order for any DDR400 memory to function at full PC3200 speed, a CPU with 800MHz FSB must be installed.
-It is actually pretty likely that your computer would support the installation of one of many CPUs using the 800MHz FSB.
-According to the above link, there is even an outside chance that your MLB could support the Pentium D 805/820 (which are true dual-core CPUs) chips without modification. Unfortunately, they run noticeably slower and hotter than the others, meaning that they would run slower for gaming, but will crush any single-core CPU for things like 3D-rendering, media encoding, or use as a home server.
Based on the above, my recommendation changes slightly:
1) Update your eMachine to the latest BIOS. ($0)
2) Update your ATI graphics and chipset drivers.
2a) Replace the current graphics card with an ATI HD 4770. ($100-$120 - The Sapphire model looks rather tasty)
---wait for cash to recover---
3) Replace CPU with OEM 3.6GHz Intel Pentium 4 661 processor (about $75-$90 these days) purchased from a place with a good, understanding return policy (in case it doesn't work).
3a) On the chance the FSB does not auto-change to 800 once the new processor is installed, set it to 800MHz in the BIOS but make sure memory is still set to 333MHz (it should auto-change).
---IF processor swap was successful, THEN wait for cash to recover, ELSE return processor for refund and stop here---
4) Replace memory with 2x1GB DDR400/PC3200 DIMMs ($70 - try to get quality memory that runs at 2.6V or less)
The model 661 processor surprisingly only generates about 3 more watts of heat even though it runs about 550MHz faster than your current 524, but what's really going to make the difference is combining that with the extra 512MB/sec of bandwidth you will gain after the jump from 533 to 800 FSB. The full tale of the tape looks like this:
Memory bandwidth increases 19%.
CPU speed increases 17%.
Graphics performance increases...300%-900% (Yes, really!) over the X1300 Pro.*
My best estimate? You will see between 20%-25% speed increase in day-to-day tasks, and at a minimum 50%-100% in gaming. If getting double your current frame rate sounds like it would be worth $200-$300 worth of upgrades ($100 of which is for a graphics card you will move to a new machine later), then by all means go for it. Otherwise, put that money towards a new system.
Enjoy. I had fun chasing down all the info, here's hoping you find it useful to help make up your mind.
--Patrick
(*I could not find any good direct comparisons between the X1300 and the HD4770, so I improvised. Tests show the HD4770 performs almost exactly like the HD4850, and then I found a comparison of the HD4850 v. the X1300. Pay attention to the 1280x1024 numbers with 0xAA - these are the ones that better demonstrate the pure GPU v. GPU strength competition rather than being skewed by the vast difference in on-board memory and memory speeds)
#15
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
Google helps a lot by filling in the stuff I don't know/can't remember. The rest is just persistence.Mr_Chaz said:Every time I think I'm a computer genius you go and show me how little I really know. Kudos.
--Patrick
#16
KCWM
KCWM
Thank you very much Patrick. I appreciate you doing the research for me.
$200-300 over the course of a few months is easier than $600 all at once for a new computer/video card. I'm currently selling a guitar pedal which should cover the cost of the video card with no money out of pocket. That 4770 is the one I am currently eyeing after reading the MMO article you linked above. I currently have a geforce 9800gt in this computer after reading and hearing how well the 8800 worked. I like it, but im sure my otherwise stock computer (well, I did upgrade the PSU to a 600w) is likely bottlenecking it.
I was looking at RAM on newegg and came across http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820231036 which is a brand I've never heard of, but would run me $55 or so for two sticks. It has plenty of good reviews (something I like for on newegg) and has the voltage you suggest.
Newegg no longer carries the processor, which is totally what I expected. But, if the sale of this pedal happens tomorrow, then that means that I could effectively upgrade the computer for between $150-$200 out of pocket, which isn't too bad. Do you have any suggestions for the websites you mentioned with a good return policy? I found one on superbiiz.com for $83 and some change. I just don't know anything about online retailers...as if you haven't already done a toon of legwork for me already.
Thanks for all of your help.
$200-300 over the course of a few months is easier than $600 all at once for a new computer/video card. I'm currently selling a guitar pedal which should cover the cost of the video card with no money out of pocket. That 4770 is the one I am currently eyeing after reading the MMO article you linked above. I currently have a geforce 9800gt in this computer after reading and hearing how well the 8800 worked. I like it, but im sure my otherwise stock computer (well, I did upgrade the PSU to a 600w) is likely bottlenecking it.
I was looking at RAM on newegg and came across http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820231036 which is a brand I've never heard of, but would run me $55 or so for two sticks. It has plenty of good reviews (something I like for on newegg) and has the voltage you suggest.
Newegg no longer carries the processor, which is totally what I expected. But, if the sale of this pedal happens tomorrow, then that means that I could effectively upgrade the computer for between $150-$200 out of pocket, which isn't too bad. Do you have any suggestions for the websites you mentioned with a good return policy? I found one on superbiiz.com for $83 and some change. I just don't know anything about online retailers...as if you haven't already done a toon of legwork for me already.
Thanks for all of your help.
#17
PatrThom
PatrThom
No problem. I was in the mood for a hunt, and you provided one.
I have heard of G.Skill memory, but I don't have much experience with them. However, there is nothing that leads me to believe they would be a bad choice. Newegg's return policy is fantastic, so if the sticks don't live up to your expectations, I'm sure they can handle exchanging them for you. The main reason I recommend 2.5V or less is because that's what Intel explicitly specifies in the board's documentation.
I don't think it's very easy to get new 661 processors these days (for less than $200, at least), but all I did to get that OEM price was to plug some search keywords into Google shopping, and that's what I came up with. The few places I checked out say that there is a short return window (usually 30 days) for returning things (meaning you'd have to order it when you know you could try it out right away) and that they don't accept processors that have been overclocked, burned, chipped, etc. If you have any question, just phone in your order and explain what it is you want to do ("Documentation says this will work with my board...maybe. Can I return it if it doesn't work?"), I'm sure most places will be happy to at least answer that question ahead of the sale.
I wish you the best of luck. I know what the specs say (that it all should work), but I am quite interested in hearing what you have to say once it's all over.
--Patrick
I have heard of G.Skill memory, but I don't have much experience with them. However, there is nothing that leads me to believe they would be a bad choice. Newegg's return policy is fantastic, so if the sticks don't live up to your expectations, I'm sure they can handle exchanging them for you. The main reason I recommend 2.5V or less is because that's what Intel explicitly specifies in the board's documentation.
I don't think it's very easy to get new 661 processors these days (for less than $200, at least), but all I did to get that OEM price was to plug some search keywords into Google shopping, and that's what I came up with. The few places I checked out say that there is a short return window (usually 30 days) for returning things (meaning you'd have to order it when you know you could try it out right away) and that they don't accept processors that have been overclocked, burned, chipped, etc. If you have any question, just phone in your order and explain what it is you want to do ("Documentation says this will work with my board...maybe. Can I return it if it doesn't work?"), I'm sure most places will be happy to at least answer that question ahead of the sale.
I wish you the best of luck. I know what the specs say (that it all should work), but I am quite interested in hearing what you have to say once it's all over.
--Patrick
#18
Mr_Chaz
Mr_Chaz
Well yeah, maybe it's just your persistence that makes it look more like you're a genius 
I tend to give up after I find the first useful stuff.
I tend to give up after I find the first useful stuff.
#19
KCWM
KCWM
OK, here's an update, but with an asterisk.
I found out the 450w PSU I have is pretty much crap. After doing some research on it, it's apparently a cheap Frys POS. Rhino Panther 450w something. It has a single 12v rail and gets 21a per that rail. From what I've read, that's not going to be enough to run a decent card and I simply can not afford to buy a new PSU AND a video card right now. For the time being, I bought a low power EVGA geForce 9600gt. It only requires a 350w PSU with 18a on the 12v rail.
It's possible that I misunderstand that. Maybe that requirement is for the entire system. There was a 9800gt available at Best Buy for $10 more than I paid for the 9600 (which came with a 20 dollar rebate), but it required 26a on the 12v rail. I have the 9800 gtx+ and it shut down that power supply unless I unplugged the DVD-drive. Funny thing is, the box said the GTX+ required less amps on the 12v rail.
Right now, the Radeon 4770 is my prefered choice but it's also out of stock or just a little out of my price range, especially if I'd have to buy another PSU, which is more of a now-ish upgrade for any other other cards I was considering.
Any more advice?
I found out the 450w PSU I have is pretty much crap. After doing some research on it, it's apparently a cheap Frys POS. Rhino Panther 450w something. It has a single 12v rail and gets 21a per that rail. From what I've read, that's not going to be enough to run a decent card and I simply can not afford to buy a new PSU AND a video card right now. For the time being, I bought a low power EVGA geForce 9600gt. It only requires a 350w PSU with 18a on the 12v rail.
It's possible that I misunderstand that. Maybe that requirement is for the entire system. There was a 9800gt available at Best Buy for $10 more than I paid for the 9600 (which came with a 20 dollar rebate), but it required 26a on the 12v rail. I have the 9800 gtx+ and it shut down that power supply unless I unplugged the DVD-drive. Funny thing is, the box said the GTX+ required less amps on the 12v rail.
Right now, the Radeon 4770 is my prefered choice but it's also out of stock or just a little out of my price range, especially if I'd have to buy another PSU, which is more of a now-ish upgrade for any other other cards I was considering.
Any more advice?
#20
figmentPez
figmentPez
What resolution is your monitor? What games are you planning to play?
Depending on your answers, you might not need a 4770. If you're gaming at 1280x1024 or lower, in most games (Crysis being typical of exceptions) you'd see the same performance with a 4830, or even a lesser card.
Depending on your answers, you might not need a 4770. If you're gaming at 1280x1024 or lower, in most games (Crysis being typical of exceptions) you'd see the same performance with a 4830, or even a lesser card.
#21
KCWM
KCWM
I was running her computer last night running World of Warcraft at 1280x960 with the 9600gt. During our raid in Naxx25, she was getting somewhere around 25 FPS. During flying around out in Storm Peaks, she was getting in the 50s. Dalaran, of course, killed it by dipping into 10-11 FPS with modest settings.
My ultimate goal, based on feedback from another guildie with a 9600gt (but not low power), is to get her around 30 fps in raids and in the teens in Dalaran, which is more than enough to get around with little stutter. As smooth as possible for someone who's not a gamer and won't appreciate getting 60 FPS.
I know that, at this point, her computer is holding the card back, even though it's not a powerful card. I figure that the other adjustments that Patrick suggested would help alleviate that issue.
My ultimate goal, based on feedback from another guildie with a 9600gt (but not low power), is to get her around 30 fps in raids and in the teens in Dalaran, which is more than enough to get around with little stutter. As smooth as possible for someone who's not a gamer and won't appreciate getting 60 FPS.
I know that, at this point, her computer is holding the card back, even though it's not a powerful card. I figure that the other adjustments that Patrick suggested would help alleviate that issue.
#22
PatrThom
PatrThom
Right.
The biggest advantage of the 4770 is that it saves you more money in the long run (use it now, use it again later on a new MLB teamed up with another 4770 in X-fire for huuuuge improvement). If you're concerned about your power budget, then here are some numbers for you (all numbers are peak, not average):
DVD drive (while writing at 16x) - 20W/1.5A
HDD (Atlas 15k RPM SCSI) - 30W/2.5A (I can almost guarantee your drive(s) will be noticeably less than this greedy monster)
Motherboard and RAM - 25W/2A
X1300 Pro - 35W/3A
9600GT (2nd gen)* - 60W/5A
Pentium4 524 - 84W/7A
Pentium4 661 - 86W/7A
4670 - 90W/7.5A
4770 - 100W/8A
9600GT (1st gen)* - 100W/8A
4830 - 120W/10A
9800GT - 140W/11.5A
9800GTX+ - 145W/12A
PCI and AGP slots may have been limited to only 25W, but PCIe can happily supply up to 60W through the slot itself (75W for more recent boards), and each additional connector can pipe in another 75W, so you can get a rough idea of a card's wattage just by seeing how many additional connectors it has (keep in mind that this is total wattage, not just 12V)
By my best guess (assuming no PCI cards, only 1xHDD & 1xDVD), your total system power at absolute max draw (not counting video card) is about 190W/15.5A (keep in mind again that this is total wattage, not just 12V). Assuming at least 1/3 of that** is being supplied by the 3.3V/5V rails, that means your 12V line is currently (heh :slywink: ) supplying somewhere around 10A-10.5A, giving you an absolute maximum of about 10A to 'spend' on video. If you look at the chart on this page, you can also get some idea of how cards stack up to one another, performance-wise.
Going by the (admittedly less-than-scientific) data above, your current PSU should be up to the task of powering everything (both now and after the previously mentioned upgrades), but with only an amp or two max of headroom. If you have already purchased a new graphics card (the 9600GT) then don't worry about getting the 4770 right now. The 9600GT may not be as fast as the 4770 but it absolutely crushes the X1300. With the 9600GT you've gone from being GPU-limited to being CPU-limited. I would make the CPU upgrade my next step, with the RAM upgrade to follow. If you want to change the graphics again after the CPU and RAM, that'll be up to you (and your wallet), but by all means do the CPU/RAM first.
--Patrick
*There are two versions of the 9600GT, according to NVIDIA. One uses 100W/8A, the other 'low power' version uses only 60W/5A. You can tell them apart depending on whether or not your card has a PCIe power connector on the back of the board.
**Basing this on listed PSU ratings. Found a Rhino 500W PSU online that claims to be able to put out 250W on 12V and about another 250W on the 3.3V/5V rails combined which means a 50/50 split if loaded evenly, then arbitrarily inflated your system draw to a 67/33 split to create a safety cushion.
The biggest advantage of the 4770 is that it saves you more money in the long run (use it now, use it again later on a new MLB teamed up with another 4770 in X-fire for huuuuge improvement). If you're concerned about your power budget, then here are some numbers for you (all numbers are peak, not average):
DVD drive (while writing at 16x) - 20W/1.5A
HDD (Atlas 15k RPM SCSI) - 30W/2.5A (I can almost guarantee your drive(s) will be noticeably less than this greedy monster)
Motherboard and RAM - 25W/2A
X1300 Pro - 35W/3A
9600GT (2nd gen)* - 60W/5A
Pentium4 524 - 84W/7A
Pentium4 661 - 86W/7A
4670 - 90W/7.5A
4770 - 100W/8A
9600GT (1st gen)* - 100W/8A
4830 - 120W/10A
9800GT - 140W/11.5A
9800GTX+ - 145W/12A
PCI and AGP slots may have been limited to only 25W, but PCIe can happily supply up to 60W through the slot itself (75W for more recent boards), and each additional connector can pipe in another 75W, so you can get a rough idea of a card's wattage just by seeing how many additional connectors it has (keep in mind that this is total wattage, not just 12V)
By my best guess (assuming no PCI cards, only 1xHDD & 1xDVD), your total system power at absolute max draw (not counting video card) is about 190W/15.5A (keep in mind again that this is total wattage, not just 12V). Assuming at least 1/3 of that** is being supplied by the 3.3V/5V rails, that means your 12V line is currently (heh :slywink: ) supplying somewhere around 10A-10.5A, giving you an absolute maximum of about 10A to 'spend' on video. If you look at the chart on this page, you can also get some idea of how cards stack up to one another, performance-wise.
Going by the (admittedly less-than-scientific) data above, your current PSU should be up to the task of powering everything (both now and after the previously mentioned upgrades), but with only an amp or two max of headroom. If you have already purchased a new graphics card (the 9600GT) then don't worry about getting the 4770 right now. The 9600GT may not be as fast as the 4770 but it absolutely crushes the X1300. With the 9600GT you've gone from being GPU-limited to being CPU-limited. I would make the CPU upgrade my next step, with the RAM upgrade to follow. If you want to change the graphics again after the CPU and RAM, that'll be up to you (and your wallet), but by all means do the CPU/RAM first.
--Patrick
*There are two versions of the 9600GT, according to NVIDIA. One uses 100W/8A, the other 'low power' version uses only 60W/5A. You can tell them apart depending on whether or not your card has a PCIe power connector on the back of the board.
**Basing this on listed PSU ratings. Found a Rhino 500W PSU online that claims to be able to put out 250W on 12V and about another 250W on the 3.3V/5V rails combined which means a 50/50 split if loaded evenly, then arbitrarily inflated your system draw to a 67/33 split to create a safety cushion.
#23
KCWM
KCWM
Wow Patrick. You are awesome.
I should have gone with my gut when I bought that, spent a bit more, and bought a decent PSU. Obviously, I am by far not an expert, but I've learned a thing or two about buying these items and how you shouldn't skimp on a PSU. Maybe the rhino (http://www.frys.com/product/5366448?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG) will end up working well for me, but I've read plenty of bad things about it.
I have the second version of the 9600gt (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130485), which runs strictly off of the power provided by the PCI-E slot. I like having more than an amp or two of headroom.
The system runs a little not, but this could be remedied by upping the fan percentage. From what I understand, these all come preset with a pretty low percentage (25%-40%). I also need to reapply the thermal grease since I recently installed a new CPU fan (the other one was LOUD).
Thanks again for all of your advice patrick. It's really good stuff. Now, if only I could get your opinion on MY computer.
I should have gone with my gut when I bought that, spent a bit more, and bought a decent PSU. Obviously, I am by far not an expert, but I've learned a thing or two about buying these items and how you shouldn't skimp on a PSU. Maybe the rhino (http://www.frys.com/product/5366448?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG) will end up working well for me, but I've read plenty of bad things about it.
I have the second version of the 9600gt (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130485), which runs strictly off of the power provided by the PCI-E slot. I like having more than an amp or two of headroom.
The system runs a little not, but this could be remedied by upping the fan percentage. From what I understand, these all come preset with a pretty low percentage (25%-40%). I also need to reapply the thermal grease since I recently installed a new CPU fan (the other one was LOUD).
Thanks again for all of your advice patrick. It's really good stuff. Now, if only I could get your opinion on MY computer.
#24
PatrThom
Disclaimer: My opinions are just that...opinions. You are encouraged to do your own research before following any of my advice (I try to include links for credibility, but there's no guarantee they're accurate, either). If anything sounds uncomfortable, then don't do it!
--Patrick
PatrThom
The sooner you get the new CPU, the sooner you can reapply the thermal paste. Plus you'll only have to do it the one time.KCWM said:I also need to reapply the thermal grease since I recently installed a new CPU fan (the other one was LOUD).
Post it or PM it, I'm game.KCWM also said:Thanks again for all of your advice patrick. It's really good stuff. Now, if only I could get your opinion on MY computer.
Disclaimer: My opinions are just that...opinions. You are encouraged to do your own research before following any of my advice (I try to include links for credibility, but there's no guarantee they're accurate, either). If anything sounds uncomfortable, then don't do it!
--Patrick
#25
KCWM
KCWM
Gateway DX 4720-03
Upgraded the PSU to an Antec Earthwatts 650w along with a PNY 1g geForce 9800gtx.
I intend to upgrade to 8gb of RAM one day (I think I can do 2 sticks of 4gb each).
Upgraded the PSU to an Antec Earthwatts 650w along with a PNY 1g geForce 9800gtx.
I intend to upgrade to 8gb of RAM one day (I think I can do 2 sticks of 4gb each).
#26
PatrThom
PatrThom
It looks like your computer contains the MSI NVIDIA MCP73PV Motherboard. First step in any upgrade hunt...upgrade your BIOS and other drivers.
The closest mainstream MSI motherboard would be the P6NGM-FD. Fastest processor for gaming* appears to be the Core 2 Duo E8600 3.33GHz, which appears to retail these days for about $300. If that sounds like too much money, the next processor down (the 3.16GHz E8500) can be had for just under $200 (and because it is older, is also more likely to be supported by the BIOS). Either one is a noticeable step up from the stock Core 2 Duo E5200 2.50 GHz (compare the three). They both look like they have the same TDP (65W), so you probably won't have to worry about thermal issues. As a bonus, the E8x00 supports virtualization, meaning you will be able to properly use the 'XP mode' of Windows 7. Unfortunately, your chipset only supports up to 4GB max, though you can maximize its performance with 2x2GB DDR2-800 (PC2-6400) modules. As before, try to go with the memory that has the lowest timing numbers but also the lowest voltage you can find. Higher-voltage RAM means the mfr is 'overclocking' the chips to get the speed/latency listed.
As far as graphics go, unless you want to spring for a 4890 or a 260GTX, that 9800GTX is going to be pretty competitive with what you can buy today without taking out a 2nd mortgage. I'd recommend keeping it as-is unless you absolutely have to upgrade to a DX11-compatible card someday.
--Patrick
*The board supports quad-core processors as well, but games like as much GHz as they can get, and the fastest quad-core listed as compatible (the Q9650/QX9650) runs at only 3.0GHz (and costs $350/$900, besides!).
The closest mainstream MSI motherboard would be the P6NGM-FD. Fastest processor for gaming* appears to be the Core 2 Duo E8600 3.33GHz, which appears to retail these days for about $300. If that sounds like too much money, the next processor down (the 3.16GHz E8500) can be had for just under $200 (and because it is older, is also more likely to be supported by the BIOS). Either one is a noticeable step up from the stock Core 2 Duo E5200 2.50 GHz (compare the three). They both look like they have the same TDP (65W), so you probably won't have to worry about thermal issues. As a bonus, the E8x00 supports virtualization, meaning you will be able to properly use the 'XP mode' of Windows 7. Unfortunately, your chipset only supports up to 4GB max, though you can maximize its performance with 2x2GB DDR2-800 (PC2-6400) modules. As before, try to go with the memory that has the lowest timing numbers but also the lowest voltage you can find. Higher-voltage RAM means the mfr is 'overclocking' the chips to get the speed/latency listed.
As far as graphics go, unless you want to spring for a 4890 or a 260GTX, that 9800GTX is going to be pretty competitive with what you can buy today without taking out a 2nd mortgage. I'd recommend keeping it as-is unless you absolutely have to upgrade to a DX11-compatible card someday.
--Patrick
*The board supports quad-core processors as well, but games like as much GHz as they can get, and the fastest quad-core listed as compatible (the Q9650/QX9650) runs at only 3.0GHz (and costs $350/$900, besides!).