Export thread
Proposed Rule Promotes Union Rights in Workplace
#1
Chibibar
Chibibar
Proposed Rule Promotes Union Rights in Workplace - CBS News
I'm kinda torn on this. While it is cool that union can make a workplace better, but I have also seen the downside of union.
We have a faculty union which pretty much run the community college (pretty much) and they are resist to change
which make our lives (IT) miserable.
I'm kinda torn on this. While it is cool that union can make a workplace better, but I have also seen the downside of union.
We have a faculty union which pretty much run the community college (pretty much) and they are resist to change
which make our lives (IT) miserable.
#2
Necronic
Necronic
<does not like unions.
I mean, the fact that they are against secret ballots tells a LOT.
I mean, the fact that they are against secret ballots tells a LOT.
#3
Chibibar
Chibibar
Union does have its place, but I think sometimes unions go a bit far and can cause stagnation (IMO) like the auto industries. You have unskilled worker in a union which get paid (when they had the job) a lot more than normal skilled worker. That is mess up.
#4
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
Any move to reduce the power of unions will be abused by the kinds of people unions were created to fight against... and considering employers have already used the current recession to make moves they've wanted to make for years, I do not think the current anti-union climate bodes well for the American worker.
Maybe I'm just bitter because the local Teacher's Union had been fighting the local school district to receive cost of living adjustments they've been owed for years and have been working without contract since June... but when they declare they'll strike unless they get them (despite having fought for years against downright hostile administrators), they somehow become the bad guys. I wouldn't even care about this but now my mother may be in the position of ether losing the house by participating in the strike (if it comes to it) or losing her benefits and bargaining power by working through the strike and thus being kicked out of the union.
Maybe I'm just bitter because the local Teacher's Union had been fighting the local school district to receive cost of living adjustments they've been owed for years and have been working without contract since June... but when they declare they'll strike unless they get them (despite having fought for years against downright hostile administrators), they somehow become the bad guys. I wouldn't even care about this but now my mother may be in the position of ether losing the house by participating in the strike (if it comes to it) or losing her benefits and bargaining power by working through the strike and thus being kicked out of the union.
#5
Chibibar
Chibibar
Yea. but consider current situation, the people with the most skill gets the job. The IT industry (at least call centers and such) do not have unions. Like I said, union does have a role in giving workers leverage against the "evil corporation" but sometimes the union doesn't promote training or enough training for their people in case there isn't any job. I have the words in my head, but not sure how to express it properly so I may come back to this thread and edit.Any move to reduce the power of unions will be abused by the kinds of people unions were created to fight against... and considering employers have already used the current recession to make moves they've wanted to make for years, I do not think this bodes well for the American worker.
#6
strawman
strawman
Unions have grown too strong over the years, and a corrupt union is just as bad as a corrupt business.
Unfortunately unions have never done anything positive for me, and have done several negative things (for instance, in one position I worked you HAVE to pay union dues as an employee whether you are a member of the union or not - as far as I'm concerned that's stealing). When I was doing white collar work I had days of sitting around waiting for a union drew to move materials from the dock to my work space. The dock was 30 feet away, but I wasn't allowed to touch the stuff since the union contract required that only union employees could move materials from one place to another. Same story working in convention spaces and trying to get power, networking, or phone lines put in for a booth - only can be done by the union. Then I've had family members who were fired from their job because they could be replaced by lower paid employees, which is against the union contract, yet the union decided not to enforce the contract.
Then there are the times when the unions and the company work together. In one case the company was going to be behind in delivering on a contract for a customer, which would cost them millions in late penalties. Their solution? Pay the union to strike. The customer contract is written that delays caused by unions don't result in penalties. The workers were NOT paid for the days they struck, and the "result" of the strike was some trivial concession from the employer. Of course the union itself got a huge check as a concession of the strike, but the employees were used as toys and ultimately lost days of pay.
These, and many more issues, have pretty much turned me against unions in general. While I know they've done great good for workers in terrible conditions, they have grown too large, and now exist not to support the workers, but to support themselves.
This signage requirement is utterly stupid, and simply signifies the growth and power of the unions.
Unfortunately unions have never done anything positive for me, and have done several negative things (for instance, in one position I worked you HAVE to pay union dues as an employee whether you are a member of the union or not - as far as I'm concerned that's stealing). When I was doing white collar work I had days of sitting around waiting for a union drew to move materials from the dock to my work space. The dock was 30 feet away, but I wasn't allowed to touch the stuff since the union contract required that only union employees could move materials from one place to another. Same story working in convention spaces and trying to get power, networking, or phone lines put in for a booth - only can be done by the union. Then I've had family members who were fired from their job because they could be replaced by lower paid employees, which is against the union contract, yet the union decided not to enforce the contract.
Then there are the times when the unions and the company work together. In one case the company was going to be behind in delivering on a contract for a customer, which would cost them millions in late penalties. Their solution? Pay the union to strike. The customer contract is written that delays caused by unions don't result in penalties. The workers were NOT paid for the days they struck, and the "result" of the strike was some trivial concession from the employer. Of course the union itself got a huge check as a concession of the strike, but the employees were used as toys and ultimately lost days of pay.
These, and many more issues, have pretty much turned me against unions in general. While I know they've done great good for workers in terrible conditions, they have grown too large, and now exist not to support the workers, but to support themselves.
This signage requirement is utterly stupid, and simply signifies the growth and power of the unions.
#7
Chibibar
Chibibar
Thanks FLP. I have heard stories about unions. I totally forgot about convention booth (I work at anime conventions) and remember that we can't move anything unless they are union approve workers. To me, it tells me that "union workers" are "lazy" at least conventions cause I see a bunch of people milling around not doing anything during peak time (normal working hour like 10am and not even lunch time) cause the SAME people later do the stuff we request a day before for 8am that day...... that just my limited view.
#8
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
Why? Most people really have no idea what a union actually is, beyond the reason they get paid sick days and breaks during the workday. Telling people that aren't part of a union that they are legally allowed to form one hurts no one except the people who exploit them for labor. It's kind of like putting the cancer warning on packs of cigarettes: The only people hurt by it are the people who should have told you in the first place.This signage requirement is utterly stupid, and simply signifies the growth and power of the unions.
#9
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Now just change that to Unions. Unless you are earning script instead of cash, have to shop from a company store, work 18 hour days 7 days a week, have no minimum wage, have no vacations, no insurance.... ad nauseum. If you fit all those categories then the union has never done anything for you.
Now just change that to Unions. Unless you are earning script instead of cash, have to shop from a company store, work 18 hour days 7 days a week, have no minimum wage, have no vacations, no insurance.... ad nauseum. If you fit all those categories then the union has never done anything for you.
#10
strawman
Forcing every single employer to add Yet Another Stupid Workplace Rights Poster to their breakroom, and fining them when they don't update them every year, or they fall down, or someone steals one, or defaces it and they don't replace it right away is stupid. You might as well say stores must post signs a the entrance, "You are not legally required to shop here. You have the right to shop elsewhere."
Why are we requiring employers to educate their employees about union rights?
It turns out that companies spend hundreds and thousands of dollars a year maintaining their workplace rights posters, and even small businesses have to deal with this.
A union poster truly serves no purpose, other than to act as advertising for unions, and they may as well be considered businesses in and of themselves.
strawman
Why? Most people really have no idea what a union actually is, beyond the reason they get paid sick days and breaks during the workday. Telling people that aren't part of a union that they are legally allowed to form one hurts no one except the people who exploit them for labor. It's kind of like putting the cancer warning on packs of cigarettes: The only people hurt by it are the people who should have told you in the first place.[/QUOTE]This signage requirement is utterly stupid, and simply signifies the growth and power of the unions.
Forcing every single employer to add Yet Another Stupid Workplace Rights Poster to their breakroom, and fining them when they don't update them every year, or they fall down, or someone steals one, or defaces it and they don't replace it right away is stupid. You might as well say stores must post signs a the entrance, "You are not legally required to shop here. You have the right to shop elsewhere."
Why are we requiring employers to educate their employees about union rights?
It turns out that companies spend hundreds and thousands of dollars a year maintaining their workplace rights posters, and even small businesses have to deal with this.
A union poster truly serves no purpose, other than to act as advertising for unions, and they may as well be considered businesses in and of themselves.
#11
Krisken
Krisken
Yeah, because what has knowledge ever done for us?
Just for funsies.
Just for funsies.
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy said:"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
"But the plans were on display ..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a flashlight."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."
#12
Espy
Espy
Just because a group has done good things in the past doesn't mean they can't be in need of some reform or critique.What have the Romans ever done for us?
Now just change that to Unions. Unless you are earning script instead of cash, have to shop from a company store, work 18 hour days 7 days a week, have no minimum wage, have no vacations, no insurance.... ad nauseum. If you fit all those categories then the union has never done anything for you.
#13
Krisken
I agree with this too.
Krisken
Just because a group has done good things in the past doesn't mean they can't be in need of some reform or critique.[/QUOTE]What have the Romans ever done for us?
Now just change that to Unions. Unless you are earning script instead of cash, have to shop from a company store, work 18 hour days 7 days a week, have no minimum wage, have no vacations, no insurance.... ad nauseum. If you fit all those categories then the union has never done anything for you.
I agree with this too.
#14
sixpackshaker
Critique is one thing, but to discount the movement all together is another.
sixpackshaker
Just because a group has done good things in the past doesn't mean they can't be in need of some reform or critique.[/QUOTE]What have the Romans ever done for us?
Now just change that to Unions. Unless you are earning script instead of cash, have to shop from a company store, work 18 hour days 7 days a week, have no minimum wage, have no vacations, no insurance.... ad nauseum. If you fit all those categories then the union has never done anything for you.
Critique is one thing, but to discount the movement all together is another.
#15
strawman
Is it the responsibility of the one who wields those rights, or the responsible of those around them?
Treating the employees like children and spoon feeding them their rights sounds like a recipe for disaster as well, no matter which way you take it.
There is a balance, sure, but why union rights and not breastfeeding at work rights?
strawman
I suppose the question then is - who is responsible to make sure one's rights are understood and not violated?Yeah, because what has knowledge ever done for us?
Is it the responsibility of the one who wields those rights, or the responsible of those around them?
Treating the employees like children and spoon feeding them their rights sounds like a recipe for disaster as well, no matter which way you take it.
There is a balance, sure, but why union rights and not breastfeeding at work rights?
#16
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
Once again, for the same reason we put Surgeons General's warnings on packs of cigarettes: To inform the user/workers of facts they may not be aware of. Yes, these are facts that most people should be aware of. That doesn't mean that reminding them before they light up/get exploited by their boss isn't necessary.Why are we requiring employers to educate their employees about union rights?
That's misleading. Unions don't make profits or sell anything... they are non-profit, advocacy groups that work to advance the cause of the workers they represent. Any dues they collect go towards paying the lawyers, negotiators, and full time staffers of the Union. Comparing a union to a business is like comparing the NRA to a gun store: Just because it works closely with a business does not mean it is one itself.A union poster truly serves no purpose, other than to act as advertising for unions, and they may as well be considered businesses in and of themselves.
#17
Krisken
Krisken
You do realize how blissfully ignorant people are, right? Yeah, people should spend time looking over all their rights and being informed. They should also read all the contracts they and make sure they understand them before they sign them.
I don't buy the "people shouldn't be treated like idiots" argument. People are idiots. Remember, 40% of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim, despite how many times they've been told otherwise. Having their rights posted in the workplace isn't hurting anyone.
I don't buy the "people shouldn't be treated like idiots" argument. People are idiots. Remember, 40% of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim, despite how many times they've been told otherwise. Having their rights posted in the workplace isn't hurting anyone.
#18
Chibibar
Chibibar
I know that people are idiots. That is how I manage to keep a job as an IT. I don't complain too much cause it is job security. People (same people) ask me the same question at least once a week for the same issue.
#19
Covar
Covar
accurate metaphor. Revolutionary, changed the entire western world for the better, then became to big and corrupt.What have the Romans ever done for us?
Now just change that to Unions. Unless you are earning script instead of cash, have to shop from a company store, work 18 hour days 7 days a week, have no minimum wage, have no vacations, no insurance.... ad nauseum. If you fit all those categories then the union has never done anything for you.
#20
AshburnerX
True, but when they disappeared, the world lost the knowledge and conditions they had created for hundreds of years. Things were ultimately much worse for the average person once they were gone and it took a long time before it even started to get better.
AshburnerX
accurate metaphor. Revolutionary, changed the entire western world for the better, then became to big and corrupt.[/QUOTE]What have the Romans ever done for us?
Now just change that to Unions. Unless you are earning script instead of cash, have to shop from a company store, work 18 hour days 7 days a week, have no minimum wage, have no vacations, no insurance.... ad nauseum. If you fit all those categories then the union has never done anything for you.
True, but when they disappeared, the world lost the knowledge and conditions they had created for hundreds of years. Things were ultimately much worse for the average person once they were gone and it took a long time before it even started to get better.
#21
Chibibar
Chibibar
I will use my work place as a base on Union worker vs IT.
We, in IT, try to make our users' lives as easy as possible. Sometimes we have to implement changes to improve quality. One such example is our online system. We would LIKE to require ALL faculty using such a system to be 100% basic certified before using it. Because if a person who "think" they know how to use it, use it, there is a greater chance of mistake, lost grades, lost work, and general frustration on the faculty part which BLAMES the IT. The problem is that the Teacher's union (representative) are against this change because it will cause "more work" for the faculty to learn this stuff. So such implementation are not done BUT the service NEED to continue since our students need access to online courses. This is a perfect example of a bad union direction.
Now, in the past (the industrial age) working condition was pretty much piss poor. We have learn this from history. The workers unite and form unions which later IMPROVE working condition by making it safer and pay better (at least finally country wide minimum wage)
Auto industry union - while it is good to keep unskilled worker good pay, the main problem is now that all these unskilled worker are "overpaid" (again my personal opinion) and can't get jobs after major layoff. The would be solution is that these union should keep their member train up and thus if things like this happen, these people can continue to work.
Now hotel unions is another story we already covered.
Anyways. this is what I have observe/read so far. My personal interaction are limited to hotel unions and teacher's unions.
We, in IT, try to make our users' lives as easy as possible. Sometimes we have to implement changes to improve quality. One such example is our online system. We would LIKE to require ALL faculty using such a system to be 100% basic certified before using it. Because if a person who "think" they know how to use it, use it, there is a greater chance of mistake, lost grades, lost work, and general frustration on the faculty part which BLAMES the IT. The problem is that the Teacher's union (representative) are against this change because it will cause "more work" for the faculty to learn this stuff. So such implementation are not done BUT the service NEED to continue since our students need access to online courses. This is a perfect example of a bad union direction.
Now, in the past (the industrial age) working condition was pretty much piss poor. We have learn this from history. The workers unite and form unions which later IMPROVE working condition by making it safer and pay better (at least finally country wide minimum wage)
Auto industry union - while it is good to keep unskilled worker good pay, the main problem is now that all these unskilled worker are "overpaid" (again my personal opinion) and can't get jobs after major layoff. The would be solution is that these union should keep their member train up and thus if things like this happen, these people can continue to work.
Now hotel unions is another story we already covered.
Anyways. this is what I have observe/read so far. My personal interaction are limited to hotel unions and teacher's unions.
#22
@Li3n
The problem always is that one side has too much power compared to the other... and of course striking a balance is hard.
@Li3n
Lost any fingers lately?! Worked in a dangerous situation witohut any protection?! Etc. I'd say unions have done some positive things for you.Unfortunately unions have never done anything positive for me,
The problem always is that one side has too much power compared to the other... and of course striking a balance is hard.
#23
Norris
Norris
Well, at least in my state, those protections and others (including those about breaks) are enshrined in law. Which makes unions somewhat superfluous. The unions are also, while they do good for their workers, able to hold the productivity of the auto companies hostage and threatened to do so during the bail out period...which was less than helpful. I work in an anti-union store, anti-union to the point of idiocy (if over half the store joins a union, we don't have to take a vote on being a union store, that's not scary, stop trying to scare me with it) but I still get all the protections and benefits being held up as the unions helping me out. My aunt works for a store that IS union and tells me that she could get me a job with a better hourly wage, but someone else working for that chain confirmed for me that with union dues on top of the taxes, you make about the same as you would making minimum wage.Lost any fingers lately?! Worked in a dangerous situation witohut any protection?! Etc. I'd say unions have done some positive things for you.
The problem always is that one side has too much power compared to the other... and of course striking a balance is hard.
#24
@Li3n
Well, at least in my state, those protections and others (including those about breaks) are enshrined in law. Which makes unions somewhat superfluous. The unions are also, while they do good for their workers, able to hold the productivity of the auto companies hostage and threatened to do so during the bail out period...which was less than helpful. I work in an anti-union store, anti-union to the point of idiocy (if over half the store joins a union, we don't have to take a vote on being a union store, that's not scary, stop trying to scare me with it) but I still get all the protections and benefits being held up as the unions helping me out. My aunt works for a store that IS union and tells me that she could get me a job with a better hourly wage, but someone else working for that chain confirmed for me that with union dues on top of the taxes, you make about the same as you would making minimum wage.[/QUOTE]
So they're matching the stuff the union guys get...
And all that stuff didn't get to be a law by accident either.
Like i said, the problem is that they have gotten either too powerful or too complacent... not that they they exist.
@Li3n
Lost any fingers lately?! Worked in a dangerous situation witohut any protection?! Etc. I'd say unions have done some positive things for you.
The problem always is that one side has too much power compared to the other... and of course striking a balance is hard.
Well, at least in my state, those protections and others (including those about breaks) are enshrined in law. Which makes unions somewhat superfluous. The unions are also, while they do good for their workers, able to hold the productivity of the auto companies hostage and threatened to do so during the bail out period...which was less than helpful. I work in an anti-union store, anti-union to the point of idiocy (if over half the store joins a union, we don't have to take a vote on being a union store, that's not scary, stop trying to scare me with it) but I still get all the protections and benefits being held up as the unions helping me out. My aunt works for a store that IS union and tells me that she could get me a job with a better hourly wage, but someone else working for that chain confirmed for me that with union dues on top of the taxes, you make about the same as you would making minimum wage.[/QUOTE]
So they're matching the stuff the union guys get...
And all that stuff didn't get to be a law by accident either.
Like i said, the problem is that they have gotten either too powerful or too complacent... not that they they exist.
#25
Necronic
Necronic
Unions did a lot of great things in the past, no doubt, and I honestly do believe that even today they keep some companies from exploiting their workers. That said though, the current system is so poorly designed that it has only created a second "big business" for a worker to deal with.
Certain practices that exist in unions blow my mind for the obvious problems they might cause, and the borderline aristocracy they support
Public Ballots - Obviously a problem. Unions say that secret ballots would encourage tampering by the company, which is possible, but it is FAR more likely that public ballots cause a chill factor against anyone voting against a union
Seniority systems - Yes they remove a boss's favoritism in deciding promotions. They also completely remove any decision making in promotions, which results in less qualified people being in better positions.
Certain practices that exist in unions blow my mind for the obvious problems they might cause, and the borderline aristocracy they support
Public Ballots - Obviously a problem. Unions say that secret ballots would encourage tampering by the company, which is possible, but it is FAR more likely that public ballots cause a chill factor against anyone voting against a union
Seniority systems - Yes they remove a boss's favoritism in deciding promotions. They also completely remove any decision making in promotions, which results in less qualified people being in better positions.
#26
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
Exactly. If you're concerned about company tampering, then work out a mechanism to prevent it. Public balloting is another form of voter intimidation by the majority/empowered.Public Ballots - Obviously a problem. Unions say that secret ballots would encourage tampering by the company, which is possible, but it is FAR more likely that public ballots cause a chill factor against anyone voting against a union
This one is just insane. It replaces boss favoritism with union favoritism. Or do people really not think that the guy with 5 years who has long-standing union ties won't get seniority over someone with 6 years who doesn't have those ties?Seniority systems - Yes they remove a boss's favoritism in deciding promotions. They also completely remove any decision making in promotions, which results in less qualified people being in better positions.