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Remembering November 30th, 1939 (UPDATE: Finnish Independence Day, Dec. 6)

#1

North_Ranger

North_Ranger

Just a little something I thought I'd share with you, in the spirit of your American Veterans Day.

70 years ago today, twenty-one Soviet divisions (a total of 450,000 men) invaded Finland after a long period of growing hostilities involving the borderline closest to Leningrad and the Soviet annexation of the Baltic states. This sparked the 105-day conflict known as the Winter War, the fight for survival of a young state against overwhelming odds.

On this day and on our Independence Day (December 6th, believe it or not), most Finns remember that war and the men who fought in it. We talk about the 'spirit of the Winter War' that dissolved the former social schisms (most notably the Red vs White state of mind, result of the Civil War, 1918-1919). We smile a little at 'Model Cajander', where the armed forces did not have enough uniforms so they just issued a utility belt, a gun and an embled for the new conscripts to clip onto their hats. Geeks like me wonder if Simo Häyhä was a Finnish response in bad-assery to Chuck Norris, and smile a little when it's mentioned that Christopher Lee was a member of a foreign volunteer corps that was unfortunately too late to see any action. And we remember those who fought in the war, as well as those who fought in the Continuation War. Still, Winter War has an iconic status in our culture, since it was purely a battle for survival. The Continuation War was a mess involving more than our share of international politics.

If anyone has a bottle of vodka (Finlandia, of course) at hand, pour yourself one and join me for a toast. Kippis.


#2

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Simo Häyhä: Scaring the hell out of the Soviets since WWII.

Alternatively... Simo Häyhä: The Soviets Carpet Bombed a forest just to get rid of this guy. You WISH you were that bad ass.


#3

twitchmoss

twitchmoss

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Kippis!

and i've said it before, you guys are awesome, but good lord do you scare me sometimes.



#4

Cajungal

Cajungal

Remembering November 30th, 1939

No vodka, but I can pretend with my water. :) Kippis!


#5

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Remembering November 30th, 1939

I'll be sure to drop by a bar for a tipple tonight.


#6

Dave

Dave

Remembering November 30th, 1939

They can fight but they can't add worth a shit.

Kippis!


#7

DarkAudit

DarkAudit

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Kippis!


#8

Espy

Espy

Remembering November 30th, 1939

I got some nice hot italian roast here. Kippis!


(I'll do vodka later tonight for ya' big guy!)


#9

Rob King

Rob King

Remembering November 30th, 1939

I'll make sure to drink a toast when I'm done work for the day. Thanks for sharing that, NR. It's actually ridiculously inspiring.


#10

Bubble181

Bubble181

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Kippis! Yeah, I finished my Finlandia not so long ago, and it's a pain to find here...But I'll drink something else for the spirit of it :)
(and definitely not Russian vodka, of course :-P)


#11

Just Me

Just Me

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Kippis!

I'm not into vodka but I raise a glass of Aberlour to the brave North Rangers of old.


#12



Armadillo

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Kippis!

(Is Mountain Dew Code Red good enough? I don't have any vodka readily available.)


#13

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Kippis!

I pour a little water in my OJ because low-acidity OJ tastes awful, so I have half a screwdriver since I don't have any vodka on hand.


#14

North_Ranger

North_Ranger

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Thanks all.

If you have questions, ask and I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities. And thanks for all the toasts.

Wait... Armadillo, did you say you were drinking RED Mountain Dew? :suspicious:


#15



rabbitgod

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Wait... Armadillo, did you say you were drinking RED Mountain Dew? :suspicious:
I'll get the hose.

Does Finland have a giant Simo Häyhä statue? I totally would. And I'd put it right on the border. With him giving the finger or make it one of those peeing fountains. The sign underneath it would say, "Dear Russia, suck it."


#16



Heavan

Remembering November 30th, 1939

But... but... the USSR always stated that they merely wanted to defend themselves from Finland when they attacked because Finland was so big and scary! You mean the USSR propaganda teams lied? If I can't trust them than who can I believe? I need answers before you get any toasts out of me, sir.


#17

ElJuski

ElJuski

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Thanks all.

If you have questions, ask and I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities. And thanks for all the toasts.

Wait... Armadillo, did you say you were drinking RED Mountain Dew? :suspicious:
Code Red, bitch! Also yeah, kippis!


#18



Qonas

Remembering November 30th, 1939

If you have questions, ask and I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities.
This may have been a bad idea, NR. :p

I know you probably haven't thoroughly studied history too much, but what was sentiment like there, towards the Germans (supposedly protectors of the Baltic and Scandinavian countries against the Soviets but in reality...), towards the British, Poles, French? What about for the stubborn neutrality of Sweden? Do the Finns fully appreciate how their amazing resistance against the Soviets basically turned Norway into the next world battleground, as British-French help could only come across that country and in no way would Hitler allow that (for strategic as well as economic reasons)? And how do the Finns see themselves in the overall picture of World War II, or if you prefer, the late '30s-40s era?


#19

SpecialKO

SpecialKO



#20

North_Ranger

North_Ranger

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Does Finland have a giant Simo Häyhä statue? I totally would. And I'd put it right on the border. With him giving the finger or make it one of those peeing fountains. The sign underneath it would say, \"Dear Russia, suck it.\"
Unfortunately, no. Simo Häyhä's reputation is usually overshadowed by the reverence Finns give to Field Marshal (and later President) C.G.E. Mannerheim - himself something of a badass. Born into the remnants of Swedish-era nobility, Mannerheim served in the Chevalier Guard of the Czarina Maria Feodorovna (whom people might better remember as the Dowager Empress in Anastasia), took part in the Russo-Japanese War as a lieutenant-colonel in Manchuria, and took part in an exploratory/ethnological expedition from Turkestan to Beijing, coming home with a vast collection of ethnological photographs and various memorabilia from animals he had killed. In WWI, he fought in Russian troops against Germans and Austrians, and escaped the downfall of the front by being on leave in Finland. In the Finnish Civil War, he lead the 'Whites' (people wanting to set up a democracy/kingdom) to victory over the 'Reds' (people wanting to set up a Bolshevik-style republic).

He was in his early 70s when he was made the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces during the Winter and the Continuation Wars. And yet he was still a bad-ass: there's an unsubstantiated story of him lighting a cigar in Hitler's presence when the Fuehrer visited him for his 75th birthday in 1942. Hitler had an aversion for smoking, and Mannerheim wanted to gauge his position, since the unofficial reason for Hitler's visit was trying to talk the Finns into committing more troops to German objectives, such as the Siege of Leningrad. Hitler did not ask him to snuff the cigar, so Mannerheim observed him to be in a position of weakness; Hitler was in no position to simply demand Finnish assistance, and Mannerheim was not willing to commit troops to efforts that didn't serve Finnish goals: namely that of regaining territory conceded in 1940.

But back to your Häyhä question... no, there's no statue of Häyhä, unfortunately. There is one of Mannerheim, however, in Helsinki. And people are getting to know Häyhä as well.



Heavan said:
But... but... the USSR always stated that they merely wanted to defend themselves from Finland when they attacked because Finland was so big and scary! You mean the USSR propaganda teams lied? If I can't trust them than who can I believe? I need answers before you get any toasts out of me, sir.
Actually, that question is a bit more complicated. For you see, in Soviet doctrine a communist nation could never be the aggressor. But, should the government of another country request for Soviet assistance, they would of course be ogliged to give it. Like I mentioned before, Finland had fought a brief but bloody Civil War in which the 'Reds' had lost, many of their leaders escaping to the Soviet Union to avoid prosecution (and likely execution). Many of them were still alive and well when the Winter War started, and the Soviet Union organized a puppet government, the Finnish Democratic Republic, also known as the Terijoki Government after the first Finnish municipality 'liberated' by Soviet troops. The Soviets recognized this as the only 'rightful' government of Finland, and had them ASK for Soviet assistance. In addition, Finland was blamed for shelling a village on the Soviet side of the border - a deed that the Soviets did by themselves to make Finland seem the aggressor and thus gain casus belli.


Qonas said:
I know you probably haven't thoroughly studied history too much, but what was sentiment like there, towards the Germans (supposedly protectors of the Baltic and Scandinavian countries against the Soviets but in reality...), towards the British, Poles, French? What about for the stubborn neutrality of Sweden? Do the Finns fully appreciate how their amazing resistance against the Soviets basically turned Norway into the next world battleground, as British-French help could only come across that country and in no way would Hitler allow that (for strategic as well as economic reasons)? And how do the Finns see themselves in the overall picture of World War II, or if you prefer, the late '30s-40s era?
Whoa, that's a whole buttload right there. Admittedly, I'm no specialist, but I have some passion for history, so I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

(1.) Sentiment towards the Germans: Well, here I must admit shame. In the Continuation War (1941-44) Finland fought alongside Germany. During the Interim Peace, Germany was the only country willing to help Finland rebuild its military strength, while most of the western countries were trying not to piss off the Soviets. During the Winter War, Finland had received some assistance, such as Blenheim airplanes donated by UK, but it was too little too late. During the major Soviet offensive in 1944 Finland received military aid from Germany - but only on the terms that Finland would not make a separate peace with the USSR. In the end, this lead to a kind of civilized coup d'etat in Finland: Mannerheim and others deposed President Ryti, and declared the treaty void - as they interpreted it as binding only as long as Ryti was president. Finland could then begin peace talks with the Soviets, but it also meant ousting the Germans from Northern Finland - which resulted in the retreating Germans torching every single building on their way back to Norway.
(2.) Sentiment towards the British, Poles, French: Like I said, during the Winter War Finland received some moderate help from the western states, but it was too little too late. As for Finnish sentiments, I can say very little. It's not a subject that is often studied. Apparently there were plans by France and the UK to send in some 20,000 troops to help Finland - but that was at mid-March the earliest AND would depend on Sweden's willingness to allow passage (which would mean the British troops could also claim the iron mines in northern Sweden). The Soviets were already breaking through, and the plan would have been feasible only if Sweden had allowed passage - which was not gonna happen. During the Continuation War, there was some hostility in popular culture towards the Allies, mainly because - if memory serves - UK was officially at war with Finland (because of the enmities with USSR and accepting German aid).
(3.) Do the Finns fully appreciate how their amazing resistance against the Soviets basically turned Norway into the next world battleground, as British-French help could only come across that country and in no way would Hitler allow that (for strategic as well as economic reasons)? No offence, but I would be close to slapping you for that one if you asked that to my face. The Soviet plans for Finland included cutting the country in two and then annexing the weakened nation to the Soviet Union, like they had done with the Baltic states and Poland. It was a battle for national survival, one that eventually left Finland between the rock and the hard place during the Interim Peace. When your own house is on fire, you don't worry so much about the house next door.
(4.) And how do the Finns see themselves in the overall picture of World War II, or if you prefer, the late '30s-40s era? That's a damn broad question, so it's almost impossible to answer, but here's some points:
- Finland was one of the few 'fledgling' nations of Europe that neither turned Fascist or was conquered by the Soviets.
- Finns generally perceive the two wars against the Soviets as separate from WWII 'proper'. Most likely because it was a one-on-one fight with German offering materiel aid in general and troops in northern Finland. Finns don't perceive themselves as having fought for the Axis in 1941-44: the alliance with Germany was about allying with one of the two major powers Finland was crushed between of: the Reich or the Soviet Union. It was also about trying to keep the nation afloat after the Winter War: Germany offered assistance also in the form of grain, as a good portion of the Finnish grain production was either ailing or lost in territorial concessions. Finns were also afraid of new Soviet aggression, as Soviet Union kept attempting to involve itself in Finnish domestic politics and supporting pro-Soviet organizations.
- Nonetheless, there's also a certain shame included in the Continuation War: Finland lost the international goodwill it had enjoyed when the troops passed the 1939 boundaries and pressed on to Soviet Karelia, as far as Lake Onega. In a sense, it wasn't as 'clean' a war as Winter War had been, now that Finland associated with the German troops.

Hope that answered some of your questions.

Tekeo said:
How did it feel when a Finnish pizza beat out Italy at the New York Pizza Show for the first prize in 2008?
Very, very, very good :D Berlusconi's a piece of shit.


#21



Twitch

Remembering November 30th, 1939

I should hope that Finns don't feel shame about their involvement in Germany. No one I've ever met expected Finland to have acted in any other way. Instead of shame they should feel pride for Finnish resistance movements!


#22

North_Ranger

North_Ranger

Remembering November 30th, 1939

I should hope that Finns don't feel shame about their involvement in Germany. No one I've ever met expected Finland to have acted in any other way. Instead of shame they should feel pride for Finnish resistance movements!
Thanks for that. Maybe it's just me, but I've sometimes feared mentioning the Reich connection when discussing my homeland's history. That's like saying you were chummy with a pedophile.

But to look for a silver lining... Finland never allowed transportation of Jews (albeit there was the case of handing over a family that had immigrated illegally :( ). It lead to some pretty strange moments in the front, in areas where German and Finnish troops fought side by side. Some Finnish Jewish soldiers were even offered the Iron Cross - and I've heard stories that in one particular sector the Jewish soldiers on the Finnish side set up a field synagogue as close as possible to the German encampment, just to rub it in their faces :D


#23



Twitch

Remembering November 30th, 1939

I should hope that Finns don't feel shame about their involvement in Germany. No one I've ever met expected Finland to have acted in any other way. Instead of shame they should feel pride for Finnish resistance movements!
Thanks for that. Maybe it's just me, but I've sometimes feared mentioning the Reich connection when discussing my homeland's history. That's like saying you were chummy with a pedophile.

But to look for a silver lining... Finland never allowed transportation of Jews (albeit there was the case of handing over a family that had immigrated illegally :( ). It lead to some pretty strange moments in the front, in areas where German and Finnish troops fought side by side. Some Finnish Jewish soldiers were even offered the Iron Cross - and I've heard stories that in one particular sector the Jewish soldiers on the Finnish side set up a field synagogue as close as possible to the German encampment, just to rub it in their faces :D[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't worry about it, I mean I'm from a country where the people had to be convinced to stop the most evil empire in the world. That's pretty damn bad. I keep a pretty detailed history of World War II, I update it with every source I can find and if you knew of any books that would tell me more of the Finnish perspective I would really appreciate it.


#24



Wasabi Poptart

Remembering November 30th, 1939

No vodka, but I'll raise my morning cup of coffee. Kippis!


#25

North_Ranger

North_Ranger

Remembering November 30th, 1939

I wouldn't worry about it, I mean I'm from a country where the people had to be convinced to stop the most evil empire in the world. That's pretty damn bad. I keep a pretty detailed history of World War II, I update it with every source I can find and if you knew of any books that would tell me more of the Finnish perspective I would really appreciate it.
Well, as you may have guessed, I've done my Finnish history almost exclusively in Finnish. But try looking with any of the following key words: 'Winter War', 'Continuation War', 'Finland', 'Karelia'.

For a fictional perspective on the Continuation War, I recommend The Unknown Soldier by Väinö Linna from 1955. Linna, who's one of the major figures of Finnish literature, wished to undo the romanticism related to the wars, and wrote a novel that paints a picture of mud, war, loss and misplaced loyalties - but also of humour, camaraderie and sisu.


#26

Rob King

Rob King

Remembering November 30th, 1939

By contrast to both of you, I come from a land where everyone was so damn ready to go to war for King and Country in 1914, we basically had no young men left after the dust settled. We hadn't even recovered by WWII, when we couldn't raise a single regiment to send to Europe. Newfoundlanders had to fight with Canadians and the British if they intended to actually go to war.

I'll definitely check out that book too though, NR.


#27



Twitch

Remembering November 30th, 1939

By contrast to both of you, I come from a land where everyone was so damn ready to go to war for King and Country in 1914, we basically had no young men left after the dust settled. We hadn't even recovered by WWII, when we couldn't raise a single regiment to send to Europe. Newfoundlanders had to fight with Canadians and the British if they intended to actually go to war.


---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

I had to cut out the bit where Arthur Currie bitch slaps someone.


#28



BoringMetaphor

Remembering November 30th, 1939

to be fair, Rob is talking about newfoundland, not canada there twitch


#29



Twitch

Remembering November 30th, 1939

to be fair, Rob is talking about newfoundland, not canada there twitch
Yeah but I think all the newfoundlanders, like ALL of them, were in Canadian Corps at Passchendaele.


#30

North_Ranger

North_Ranger

Remembering November 30th, 1939

Finns didn't take much part in WWI, seeing as Finland was - despite Russification efforts in previous years - an autonomous Grand Duchy under Russia. Officers such as Mannerheim, who served in the Russian Army, did fight, though.

And then there was the issue of the Jägers. Finnish Nationalist sentiment had been on the rise, driven by the efforts of St Petersburg to Russify Finland - in essence tie the Grand Duchy closer to the mother country - and the war. In some circles the possibility of an armed uprising was brought up, and through clandestine communication, Germany agreed to train a force of Finnish men into Jägers, elite light infantry. Some 2,000 men managed to smuggle themselves to Sweden and from there to Germany, where they were trained as the Royal Prussian 27th Jäger Battalion, and earning their baptism by fire by fighting Russian troops in Lithuania.

Finland declared its independence on 6 December 1917 (so in a couple of days there's an excuse for another vodka drink), and the separation from Russia (now run by Lenin and his Bolsheviks) was peaceful and painless. The Jägers arriving that winter still saw action: in the Civil War they formed the nucleus of the 'White' Finns, and later on many of them would become career officers in building the proper armed forces.


#31

Rob King

Rob King

Remembering November 30th, 1939

to be fair, Rob is talking about newfoundland, not canada there twitch
Yeah but I think all the Newfoundlanders, like ALL of them, were in Canadian Corps at Passchendaele.[/QUOTE]

Truthfully, I know nothing of the Newfoundlanders being involved with the battle at Passchendaele. A bit of googling tells me that they spent two months there, but it was in the beginning of 1918, so they would have missed the big fighting.

But I was referring to Beaumont Hamel, where on in the first day of the Battle of the Somme, the first Newfounland Regiment was pretty much wiped out. Of 780 Newfoundlanders, only 68 were at roll call the next morning. In the end, 110 survived, but it's incredible how one day in a nation's history can shape it for decades to come.


#32

North_Ranger

North_Ranger

Remembering November 30th, 1939

It's December 6th. The Finnish Independence Day.

Let's see how to properly celebrate.
- Remember the wars. Check.
- Visit graves. Too far away.
- Watch Unknown Soldier on telly. Check.
- Watch the Presidential Independence Day reception live and mock the dresses of women present. Uuuuuuhhhhh... Not old or desperate enough to spend my night that way yet, so pass.
- Drink vodka. Hmm. Drink vodka. Kippis!


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