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Remembering November 30th, 1939 (UPDATE: Finnish Independence Day, Dec. 6)
#1
North_Ranger
North_Ranger
#2
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
#3
twitchmoss
twitchmoss
Remembering November 30th, 1939
Kippis!
and i've said it before, you guys are awesome, but good lord do you scare me sometimes.
Kippis!
and i've said it before, you guys are awesome, but good lord do you scare me sometimes.
#4
Cajungal
Cajungal
Remembering November 30th, 1939
No vodka, but I can pretend with my water.
Kippis!
No vodka, but I can pretend with my water.
Kippis!
#5
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
#6
Dave
Dave
#7
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
#8
Espy
Espy
#9
Rob King
Rob King
#10
Bubble181
Bubble181
Remembering November 30th, 1939
Kippis! Yeah, I finished my Finlandia not so long ago, and it's a pain to find here...But I'll drink something else for the spirit of it
(and definitely not Russian vodka, of course :-P)
Kippis! Yeah, I finished my Finlandia not so long ago, and it's a pain to find here...But I'll drink something else for the spirit of it
(and definitely not Russian vodka, of course :-P)
#11
Just Me
Just Me
#12
Armadillo
Armadillo
#13
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
#14
North_Ranger
North_Ranger
#15
rabbitgod
rabbitgod
#16
Heavan
Heavan
#17
ElJuski
ElJuski
#18
Qonas
Qonas
Remembering November 30th, 1939
I know you probably haven't thoroughly studied history too much, but what was sentiment like there, towards the Germans (supposedly protectors of the Baltic and Scandinavian countries against the Soviets but in reality...), towards the British, Poles, French? What about for the stubborn neutrality of Sweden? Do the Finns fully appreciate how their amazing resistance against the Soviets basically turned Norway into the next world battleground, as British-French help could only come across that country and in no way would Hitler allow that (for strategic as well as economic reasons)? And how do the Finns see themselves in the overall picture of World War II, or if you prefer, the late '30s-40s era?
This may have been a bad idea, NR.
I know you probably haven't thoroughly studied history too much, but what was sentiment like there, towards the Germans (supposedly protectors of the Baltic and Scandinavian countries against the Soviets but in reality...), towards the British, Poles, French? What about for the stubborn neutrality of Sweden? Do the Finns fully appreciate how their amazing resistance against the Soviets basically turned Norway into the next world battleground, as British-French help could only come across that country and in no way would Hitler allow that (for strategic as well as economic reasons)? And how do the Finns see themselves in the overall picture of World War II, or if you prefer, the late '30s-40s era?
#19
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
#20
North_Ranger
North_Ranger
Remembering November 30th, 1939
He was in his early 70s when he was made the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces during the Winter and the Continuation Wars. And yet he was still a bad-ass: there's an unsubstantiated story of him lighting a cigar in Hitler's presence when the Fuehrer visited him for his 75th birthday in 1942. Hitler had an aversion for smoking, and Mannerheim wanted to gauge his position, since the unofficial reason for Hitler's visit was trying to talk the Finns into committing more troops to German objectives, such as the Siege of Leningrad. Hitler did not ask him to snuff the cigar, so Mannerheim observed him to be in a position of weakness; Hitler was in no position to simply demand Finnish assistance, and Mannerheim was not willing to commit troops to efforts that didn't serve Finnish goals: namely that of regaining territory conceded in 1940.
But back to your Häyhä question... no, there's no statue of Häyhä, unfortunately. There is one of Mannerheim, however, in Helsinki. And people are getting to know Häyhä as well.
(1.) Sentiment towards the Germans: Well, here I must admit shame. In the Continuation War (1941-44) Finland fought alongside Germany. During the Interim Peace, Germany was the only country willing to help Finland rebuild its military strength, while most of the western countries were trying not to piss off the Soviets. During the Winter War, Finland had received some assistance, such as Blenheim airplanes donated by UK, but it was too little too late. During the major Soviet offensive in 1944 Finland received military aid from Germany - but only on the terms that Finland would not make a separate peace with the USSR. In the end, this lead to a kind of civilized coup d'etat in Finland: Mannerheim and others deposed President Ryti, and declared the treaty void - as they interpreted it as binding only as long as Ryti was president. Finland could then begin peace talks with the Soviets, but it also meant ousting the Germans from Northern Finland - which resulted in the retreating Germans torching every single building on their way back to Norway.
(2.) Sentiment towards the British, Poles, French: Like I said, during the Winter War Finland received some moderate help from the western states, but it was too little too late. As for Finnish sentiments, I can say very little. It's not a subject that is often studied. Apparently there were plans by France and the UK to send in some 20,000 troops to help Finland - but that was at mid-March the earliest AND would depend on Sweden's willingness to allow passage (which would mean the British troops could also claim the iron mines in northern Sweden). The Soviets were already breaking through, and the plan would have been feasible only if Sweden had allowed passage - which was not gonna happen. During the Continuation War, there was some hostility in popular culture towards the Allies, mainly because - if memory serves - UK was officially at war with Finland (because of the enmities with USSR and accepting German aid).
(3.) Do the Finns fully appreciate how their amazing resistance against the Soviets basically turned Norway into the next world battleground, as British-French help could only come across that country and in no way would Hitler allow that (for strategic as well as economic reasons)? No offence, but I would be close to slapping you for that one if you asked that to my face. The Soviet plans for Finland included cutting the country in two and then annexing the weakened nation to the Soviet Union, like they had done with the Baltic states and Poland. It was a battle for national survival, one that eventually left Finland between the rock and the hard place during the Interim Peace. When your own house is on fire, you don't worry so much about the house next door.
(4.) And how do the Finns see themselves in the overall picture of World War II, or if you prefer, the late '30s-40s era? That's a damn broad question, so it's almost impossible to answer, but here's some points:
- Finland was one of the few 'fledgling' nations of Europe that neither turned Fascist or was conquered by the Soviets.
- Finns generally perceive the two wars against the Soviets as separate from WWII 'proper'. Most likely because it was a one-on-one fight with German offering materiel aid in general and troops in northern Finland. Finns don't perceive themselves as having fought for the Axis in 1941-44: the alliance with Germany was about allying with one of the two major powers Finland was crushed between of: the Reich or the Soviet Union. It was also about trying to keep the nation afloat after the Winter War: Germany offered assistance also in the form of grain, as a good portion of the Finnish grain production was either ailing or lost in territorial concessions. Finns were also afraid of new Soviet aggression, as Soviet Union kept attempting to involve itself in Finnish domestic politics and supporting pro-Soviet organizations.
- Nonetheless, there's also a certain shame included in the Continuation War: Finland lost the international goodwill it had enjoyed when the troops passed the 1939 boundaries and pressed on to Soviet Karelia, as far as Lake Onega. In a sense, it wasn't as 'clean' a war as Winter War had been, now that Finland associated with the German troops.
Hope that answered some of your questions.
Berlusconi's a piece of shit.
Unfortunately, no. Simo Häyhä's reputation is usually overshadowed by the reverence Finns give to Field Marshal (and later President) C.G.E. Mannerheim - himself something of a badass. Born into the remnants of Swedish-era nobility, Mannerheim served in the Chevalier Guard of the Czarina Maria Feodorovna (whom people might better remember as the Dowager Empress in Anastasia), took part in the Russo-Japanese War as a lieutenant-colonel in Manchuria, and took part in an exploratory/ethnological expedition from Turkestan to Beijing, coming home with a vast collection of ethnological photographs and various memorabilia from animals he had killed. In WWI, he fought in Russian troops against Germans and Austrians, and escaped the downfall of the front by being on leave in Finland. In the Finnish Civil War, he lead the 'Whites' (people wanting to set up a democracy/kingdom) to victory over the 'Reds' (people wanting to set up a Bolshevik-style republic).
He was in his early 70s when he was made the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces during the Winter and the Continuation Wars. And yet he was still a bad-ass: there's an unsubstantiated story of him lighting a cigar in Hitler's presence when the Fuehrer visited him for his 75th birthday in 1942. Hitler had an aversion for smoking, and Mannerheim wanted to gauge his position, since the unofficial reason for Hitler's visit was trying to talk the Finns into committing more troops to German objectives, such as the Siege of Leningrad. Hitler did not ask him to snuff the cigar, so Mannerheim observed him to be in a position of weakness; Hitler was in no position to simply demand Finnish assistance, and Mannerheim was not willing to commit troops to efforts that didn't serve Finnish goals: namely that of regaining territory conceded in 1940.
But back to your Häyhä question... no, there's no statue of Häyhä, unfortunately. There is one of Mannerheim, however, in Helsinki. And people are getting to know Häyhä as well.
Actually, that question is a bit more complicated. For you see, in Soviet doctrine a communist nation could never be the aggressor. But, should the government of another country request for Soviet assistance, they would of course be ogliged to give it. Like I mentioned before, Finland had fought a brief but bloody Civil War in which the 'Reds' had lost, many of their leaders escaping to the Soviet Union to avoid prosecution (and likely execution). Many of them were still alive and well when the Winter War started, and the Soviet Union organized a puppet government, the Finnish Democratic Republic, also known as the Terijoki Government after the first Finnish municipality 'liberated' by Soviet troops. The Soviets recognized this as the only 'rightful' government of Finland, and had them ASK for Soviet assistance. In addition, Finland was blamed for shelling a village on the Soviet side of the border - a deed that the Soviets did by themselves to make Finland seem the aggressor and thus gain casus belli.Heavan said:
Whoa, that's a whole buttload right there. Admittedly, I'm no specialist, but I have some passion for history, so I'll answer to the best of my abilities.Qonas said:
(1.) Sentiment towards the Germans: Well, here I must admit shame. In the Continuation War (1941-44) Finland fought alongside Germany. During the Interim Peace, Germany was the only country willing to help Finland rebuild its military strength, while most of the western countries were trying not to piss off the Soviets. During the Winter War, Finland had received some assistance, such as Blenheim airplanes donated by UK, but it was too little too late. During the major Soviet offensive in 1944 Finland received military aid from Germany - but only on the terms that Finland would not make a separate peace with the USSR. In the end, this lead to a kind of civilized coup d'etat in Finland: Mannerheim and others deposed President Ryti, and declared the treaty void - as they interpreted it as binding only as long as Ryti was president. Finland could then begin peace talks with the Soviets, but it also meant ousting the Germans from Northern Finland - which resulted in the retreating Germans torching every single building on their way back to Norway.
(2.) Sentiment towards the British, Poles, French: Like I said, during the Winter War Finland received some moderate help from the western states, but it was too little too late. As for Finnish sentiments, I can say very little. It's not a subject that is often studied. Apparently there were plans by France and the UK to send in some 20,000 troops to help Finland - but that was at mid-March the earliest AND would depend on Sweden's willingness to allow passage (which would mean the British troops could also claim the iron mines in northern Sweden). The Soviets were already breaking through, and the plan would have been feasible only if Sweden had allowed passage - which was not gonna happen. During the Continuation War, there was some hostility in popular culture towards the Allies, mainly because - if memory serves - UK was officially at war with Finland (because of the enmities with USSR and accepting German aid).
(3.) Do the Finns fully appreciate how their amazing resistance against the Soviets basically turned Norway into the next world battleground, as British-French help could only come across that country and in no way would Hitler allow that (for strategic as well as economic reasons)? No offence, but I would be close to slapping you for that one if you asked that to my face. The Soviet plans for Finland included cutting the country in two and then annexing the weakened nation to the Soviet Union, like they had done with the Baltic states and Poland. It was a battle for national survival, one that eventually left Finland between the rock and the hard place during the Interim Peace. When your own house is on fire, you don't worry so much about the house next door.
(4.) And how do the Finns see themselves in the overall picture of World War II, or if you prefer, the late '30s-40s era? That's a damn broad question, so it's almost impossible to answer, but here's some points:
- Finland was one of the few 'fledgling' nations of Europe that neither turned Fascist or was conquered by the Soviets.
- Finns generally perceive the two wars against the Soviets as separate from WWII 'proper'. Most likely because it was a one-on-one fight with German offering materiel aid in general and troops in northern Finland. Finns don't perceive themselves as having fought for the Axis in 1941-44: the alliance with Germany was about allying with one of the two major powers Finland was crushed between of: the Reich or the Soviet Union. It was also about trying to keep the nation afloat after the Winter War: Germany offered assistance also in the form of grain, as a good portion of the Finnish grain production was either ailing or lost in territorial concessions. Finns were also afraid of new Soviet aggression, as Soviet Union kept attempting to involve itself in Finnish domestic politics and supporting pro-Soviet organizations.
- Nonetheless, there's also a certain shame included in the Continuation War: Finland lost the international goodwill it had enjoyed when the troops passed the 1939 boundaries and pressed on to Soviet Karelia, as far as Lake Onega. In a sense, it wasn't as 'clean' a war as Winter War had been, now that Finland associated with the German troops.
Hope that answered some of your questions.
Very, very, very goodTekeo said:
Berlusconi's a piece of shit.
#21
Twitch
Twitch
#22
North_Ranger
North_Ranger
Remembering November 30th, 1939
But to look for a silver lining... Finland never allowed transportation of Jews (albeit there was the case of handing over a family that had immigrated illegally
). It lead to some pretty strange moments in the front, in areas where German and Finnish troops fought side by side. Some Finnish Jewish soldiers were even offered the Iron Cross - and I've heard stories that in one particular sector the Jewish soldiers on the Finnish side set up a field synagogue as close as possible to the German encampment, just to rub it in their faces
Thanks for that. Maybe it's just me, but I've sometimes feared mentioning the Reich connection when discussing my homeland's history. That's like saying you were chummy with a pedophile.
But to look for a silver lining... Finland never allowed transportation of Jews (albeit there was the case of handing over a family that had immigrated illegally
). It lead to some pretty strange moments in the front, in areas where German and Finnish troops fought side by side. Some Finnish Jewish soldiers were even offered the Iron Cross - and I've heard stories that in one particular sector the Jewish soldiers on the Finnish side set up a field synagogue as close as possible to the German encampment, just to rub it in their faces
#23
Twitch
Twitch
Remembering November 30th, 1939
But to look for a silver lining... Finland never allowed transportation of Jews (albeit there was the case of handing over a family that had immigrated illegally ). It lead to some pretty strange moments in the front, in areas where German and Finnish troops fought side by side. Some Finnish Jewish soldiers were even offered the Iron Cross - and I've heard stories that in one particular sector the Jewish soldiers on the Finnish side set up a field synagogue as close as possible to the German encampment, just to rub it in their faces [/QUOTE]
I wouldn't worry about it, I mean I'm from a country where the people had to be convinced to stop the most evil empire in the world. That's pretty damn bad. I keep a pretty detailed history of World War II, I update it with every source I can find and if you knew of any books that would tell me more of the Finnish perspective I would really appreciate it.
Thanks for that. Maybe it's just me, but I've sometimes feared mentioning the Reich connection when discussing my homeland's history. That's like saying you were chummy with a pedophile.
But to look for a silver lining... Finland never allowed transportation of Jews (albeit there was the case of handing over a family that had immigrated illegally
). It lead to some pretty strange moments in the front, in areas where German and Finnish troops fought side by side. Some Finnish Jewish soldiers were even offered the Iron Cross - and I've heard stories that in one particular sector the Jewish soldiers on the Finnish side set up a field synagogue as close as possible to the German encampment, just to rub it in their faces [/QUOTE]I wouldn't worry about it, I mean I'm from a country where the people had to be convinced to stop the most evil empire in the world. That's pretty damn bad. I keep a pretty detailed history of World War II, I update it with every source I can find and if you knew of any books that would tell me more of the Finnish perspective I would really appreciate it.
#24
Wasabi Poptart
Wasabi Poptart
#25
North_Ranger
North_Ranger
#26
Rob King
Rob King
#27
Twitch
Twitch
Remembering November 30th, 1939
---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------
I had to cut out the bit where Arthur Currie bitch slaps someone.
---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------
I had to cut out the bit where Arthur Currie bitch slaps someone.
#28
BoringMetaphor
BoringMetaphor
#29
Twitch
Twitch
#30
North_Ranger
North_Ranger
#31
Rob King
Rob King
#32
North_Ranger
North_Ranger