Export thread

Decided to just make a new thread; I'd rather talk about other shit in the other thread anyway and since this will be the last big Marvel event for eighteen months if Marvel is to be believed (hahaha), I'm gonna post my thoughts this way. This is pretty much the only neutral zone I have to talk about it anyway, as half the internet is Tumblr-style "this is so problematic and not adhering to coffee shop AU standards" and the other half is Reddit-style "Hydra isn't Nazis ... but if they were, I'd still be okay with it, white power." There's a middle ground of discourse in some places, but it's overwhelmed by the other stuff and just isn't worth trying to make a conversation out of anymore, unlike a year ago when Trump wasn't president and this could be looked at as nothing to do with our reality.

Because I just want to read a fucking story. And despite that Nick Spencer is a douche, and the political climate makes this really wrongheaded, and that it goes against the creators' intent of the character, and that it's too optimistic to expect that, when faced with either being introspective about the prejudice in America vs siding with America's enemies, the Nazis, too many people would be getting swastika tattoos ... FFS that's a lot to disclaim, gods, this was poorly-timed, Marvel ...

Despite all that, this has been a solid story, well-written and interesting. I can only hope the conclusion will follow suit despite my apprehension to otherwise, but in any case, we're not there yet. This is only the beginning of the end of it.

Secret Empire #0

So the big controversy crasher was, unsurprisingly, the very beginning of the issue, events that anyone who's been reading saw coming over a month ago, and ... well, I can't say for certain are being misinterpreted, but are probably being misinterpreted.

Flashback to 1945: the Allies use the Cosmic Cube to rewrite reality so they win, and everything we know of Captain America happens as before up until he's made young again during Standoff, at which point he becomes Hydra Cap.

How I see this: yet another false memory created for Cap by Kobik, "I'm the only one who remembers the real world" aka Cap thinks he's Marvel's Psycho Pirate when really he's been manipulated and gaslighted, only to become the chief manipulator and gaslighter.

How it's being interpreted elsewhere: Cap's flashbacks are the truth of the Marvel universe.

That seems really out there to me, as if saying any of the Marvel universes in its multiverse could be the real one over 616 (or Prime). That would cause a logic loop of each Cosmic Cube rewriting reality back and forth, from the end of WWII to Standoff ... it'd be nonsense and contrary to what else has gone on with all this, so I don't think that interpretation is accurate. But internet's gonna internet.

As for the issue itself, that also is bifurcated:

A. if you haven't caught up with Hydra Cap, it's just a bunch of stuff happening. Yeah, Sharon Carter lays out the situation to Steve at one point, but none of it really holds weight. Kinda like when I read Secret Wars #1 without having read any of Hickman's Avengers. I had no clue what was going on. It's not quite as dense as that, but still, if you haven't read up, the issue is pretty worthless aside from setting up the current crisis.

B. if you have caught up with Hydra Cap, then this is probably the scariest the Marvel universe has been since Annihilation* (and consider that a BIG asterik). The chessmaster stuff here is the kind of thing I'd have loved to see Doctor Doom pull off, except no one would ever trust him. Over the course of Hydra Cap issues, with Cap being given emergency war powers and the faith and trust of everyone that he's the only person who could ever have full support to have it ... and it goes as you'd expect. This feels like Order 66 scene would've felt had Revenge of the Sith been a better movie.


So if you have been reading, I think it's actually worth it. If not, don't bother. It won't be of any value. I still predict the Cosmic Cube is going to "reset to previous save file" by the end of this, but maybe I'll be wrong and this goes into interesting places. I'm fine with levels of that in a more cosmic story, like Secret Wars, but in a story of betrayal, politics, intrigue, more grounded stuff, I don't think such a clean-up would feel satisfying. We'll see.


*I like that the Annihilation Wave is mentioned more than once in the Hydra Cap series. I don't like that it's being compared to a Chitauri swarm (because movies!) that is even bigger, and yet feels like it has none of the weight that did. That wasn't even my favorite cosmic event of back then, but right from the first issue, you feel just how terrible the Annihilation Wave is. Here it's just an outside threat, another of Cap's chess pieces, so saying it's bigger than the Annihilation Wave feels like hollow dickwaving.

Now that I've seen the FCBD preview, Marvel is going to make me regret this topic and everything else related to it by next weekend, aren't they?

I am just going to read the cliff-notes through you on this if I'm honest, Marvel is clearly run by a race of mal-functioning story-bots.

Yoshimickster said:

I am just going to read the cliff-notes through you on this if I'm honest, Marvel is clearly run by a race of mal-functioning story-bots.

Click to expand...

This lets me believe I'm performing a service. But I'm wondering if I'll make it through the whole thing.

You're not far off on storybots. The movies' influence sticks out so weird in this. Like, they're using the chitauri as this big ticking clock part of Cap's plan that's a huge threat to Earth and have ravaged other systems on the way here, for movie recognition, but if you look at the chitauri in The Avengers, they're really weak, so movie people aren't going to see them as all that big a deal and won't even know what the Annihilation Wave is that they're being (stupidly) compared to.

Couple things.

I realized the reason for the misunderstanding about the Secret Empire #0 flashback is because if someone has not been reading Captain America: Steve Rogers, they have no context that the flashbacks are Steve's false memories created by the Cosmic Cube. So someone who just opens up Secret Empire #0 only sees the past. There's the reason that happened.

Do I think Marvel did that by accident though? Haha, nooooooo. The flashbacks have only been part of the Steve Rogers series. Throwing the final one into Secret Empire #0 without context that it's a false memory started the new controversy and media attention.

But that's whatever in the long run. What really irks me is this, the final page for FCBD Secret Empire issue:


Yeah ... fuck that. I'm hoping this is a flashback to good Steve, or perhaps the alternate timeline theory is right (that 616 Steve got swapped with Hydra Cap from another in the multiverse). From what I've read, FCBD Secret Empire is meant to be read before Secret Empire #1, so maybe there'll be clarification there. It's one thing to have Hydra Cap exist, it's another for a force of judgment in the Marvel universe to approve of it. Like, did Marvel not realize they've been playing with fire this whole time already without endorsing it?

If this is legit ... well, I'll continue reading Secret Empire and Hydra Cap, but it won't be from the comic book store. Both can drop off my pull list. I'll spend the same amount of money at my shop on things that actually are worthy.

Secret Empire #1

This is an odd issue. It seems to take place an indeterminate amount of weeks after #0, with the world changed into a Hydra society, battles having been already fought by a resistance group. Yet on other narrative threads, such as New York or in space, it feels like much less time has passed. I'd expect that disparity between the tie-ins and minis, but not within a single book.

The time jump reminds me of Annihilation, where all the minis' build-up led to a war in progress. A bit of the issue shows Hydra's society, which seems to have been welcomed with open arms by many. Inhumans are being detained, while the mutants have carved out a chunk of the U.S. and formed their own independent nation, with Hank McCoy as either their leader or ambassador. Some characters know something's gone fuckety with Steve, others believe he was scum all along.

What is made painfully clear is that the flashback from #0 is just another fake memory. Not much story happens in #1. There's the death of a beloved character, but it doesn't really feel like anything because two sides are determined to find the Cosmic Cube, meaning all of this is going to be undone and swiftly resolved. I'd say if there was any prominent goal for Secret Empire #1, it's to set up the minis and tie-ins, especially since members of Hydra's Avengers have their own solo series. Though these elements will also get touched on in the main series, as next issue supposedly focuses on cut-off New York.

Two issues down, eight to go, but hey, Marvel is pretty much begging people to be patient. My thoughts on that are that people can be patient and still not read this series if they don't want to. If it's going to be a Cube-based finale, it's all a wash anyway. Anyhow, time for spoilers:

What's going on with Cap

The character death

I regret everything! FCBD Secret Empire spoiler!


The leaks revealed that Hydra Cap could lift Mjolnir. There's been a bunch of speculation as to how, but fortunately, the FCBD Secret Empire issue reveals this to us.



Turns out, it has nothing to do with who you are--just whether you can outmaneuver your enemies! Every smart villain can lift Mjolnir, they just never got the chance! Hydra's just better than you!

I'm dropping Hydra Cap and Secret Empire. Make up the money at my store with the other stuff I just got interested in, but I'm not spending another penny on this shit. I'll keep this topic updated for the curious, but this is some fucked up shit. This is the kind of thing that the Cosmic Cube hitting CTRL+Z to undo the name character body count can't fix, because it fundamentally changes Mjolnir, at least until they write in a retcon someday in the future.

And /thread.

ThatNickGuy said:

And /thread.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm still going to keep tabs on the event and report for the masses .

But really wish I hadn't wasted money catching up with trades/back issues. It was a solid story, with psychological manipulation, political stuff, espionage, plotting, only for the final stretch to crash in dumb nonsense.

I got Battlestar Galactica'd again. With Nazis. :/

Zero Esc said:

I regret everything! FCBD Secret Empire spoiler!


The leaks revealed that Hydra Cap could lift Mjolnir. There's been a bunch of speculation as to how, but fortunately, the FCBD Secret Empire issue reveals this to us.

Turns out, it has nothing to do with who you are--just whether you can outmaneuver your enemies! Every smart villain can lift Mjolnir, they just never got the chance! Hydra's just better than you!

I'm dropping Hydra Cap and Secret Empire. Make up the money at my store with the other stuff I just got interested in, but I'm not spending another penny on this shit. I'll keep this topic updated for the curious, but this is some fucked up shit. This is the kind of thing that the Cosmic Cube hitting CTRL+Z to undo the name character body count can't fix, because it fundamentally changes Mjolnir, at least until they write in a retcon someday in the future.

Click to expand...

Well, they could always say the the hammer was reacting to the true Cap underneath the CC's shenanigans...

@Li3n said:

Well, they could always say the the hammer was reacting to the true Cap underneath the CC's shenanigans...

Click to expand...

And then have them mind-battle, true Cap comes back, everyone pretends this all never happens-LATHER RINSE REPEAT FOLKS!

@Li3n said:

Well, they could always say the the hammer was reacting to the true Cap underneath the CC's shenanigans...

Click to expand...

That was one of the theories from the final image, until the comic was released and revealed otherwise. That theory still falls apart for reasons of actions post-memory messing, as we've seen with Thor recently. Either way, the FCBD comic dismisses all that.

Zero Esc said:

That was one of the theories from the final image, until the comic was released and revealed otherwise. That theory still falls apart for reasons of actions post-memory messing, as we've seen with Thor recently. Either way, the FCBD comic dismisses all that.

Click to expand...

My reading of the FCBD comic was that everything was intentionally vague to cast shade on the big reveal. The narrator was naive (like us), there was no dialog from Cap, and the timeline was clearly obscured. I have doubts they have a very good plan for unpacking it all, but I suspect Cap's worthiness will be made apparent eventually, through clunky storytelling or otherwise.

MindDetective said:

My reading of the FCBD comic was that everything was intentionally vague to cast shade on the big reveal. The narrator was naive (like us), there was no dialog from Cap, and the timeline was clearly obscured. I have doubts they have a very good plan for unpacking it all, but I suspect Cap's worthiness will be made apparent eventually, through clunky storytelling or otherwise.

Click to expand...

I'm not too confident in that. We've had this narrator for the issues of Secret Empire so far and the FCBD, but we have no idea who it is. Everything else with them has been on-point, so if this situation with Mjolnir is supposed to indicate an unreliable narrator, it's a clumsy and poorly-chosen point to introduce that ambiguity. Cap should not be worthy at this point because even if his true self is, he's taken actions on behalf of these false memories. There have been other theories, such as mind-controlled Wanda flipped Mjolnir's binary, the way the Ultimates flipped Galactus's last year, so that it would only be lifted by the unworthy.

The other problem with this is more obvious, of course. The "Hail Hydra" reveal at the end of Captain America: Steve Rogers #1 was the source of last year's Hydra Cap controversy, but it wasn't the fuel that turned it into a firestorm. Marvel did that themselves by saying "and he always was!" because they knew that just having Cap being brainwashed wouldn't get much attention, but acting like he was always a spy for Hydra would. This is more of that--throwing in that loaded imagery in this context, knowing how people will feel about it.

Getting away from FCBD and looking harder at Secret Empire #1:


From a storytelling perspective though, the way the last couple issues of Hydra Cap and the #0 of Secret Empire made it seem that the Secret Empire would be the ongoing of Hydra taking over while the last remaining heroes fight to stop this, so still being as intelligent and interesting as the Hydra Cap series has been. Instead, we get this mangled mess of images that say the heroes lost, and then #1 begins with Hydra reigns. They skipped what they were building to, what seemed like it'd be a really interesting story, and decided to sit us in the middle of a new Hydra establishment. What a waste of potential.

Zero Esc said:

That was one of the theories from the final image, until the comic was released and revealed otherwise. That theory still falls apart for reasons of actions post-memory messing, as we've seen with Thor recently. Either way, the FCBD comic dismisses all that.

Click to expand...

I didn't mean the hammer was reaching out to rCap, but that it couldn't tell hCap was different...

@Li3n said:

I didn't mean the hammer was reaching out to rCap, but that it couldn't tell hCap was different...

Click to expand...

That'd be weird to me due to Odinson. Or Mjolnir got really stupid.

And then Nick Spencer's comment on it is that "we need to have a conversation on what 'worthiness' is." -_-

Long, varied and exceptionally stupid fart noise.

Frank said:

Long, varied and exceptionally stupid far noise.

Click to expand...

Is this missing a word? Because I'm confused.

I hate to give Nick Spencer some credit, but he's totally playing by the rules of Mjölnir, at least since Jason Aaron went and changed them in Thor. Because while it used to be that you had to be a good and worthy person to lift the hammer (why many villains, including Dr. Doom, have tried and failed), Aaron changed it so that you only had to believe you were worth. It's why Thor can't lift the hammer after Nick Fury tells him that atheists are right.

Covar said:

I hate to give Nick Spencer some credit, but he's totally playing by the rules of Mjölnir, at least since Jason Aaron went and changed them in Thor. Because while it used to be that you had to be a good and worthy person to lift the hammer (why many villains, including Dr. Doom, have tried and failed), Aaron changed it so that you only had to believe you were worth. It's why Thor can't lift the hammer after Nick Fury tells him that atheists are right.

Click to expand...

Did not know that. I still think that's dumb, as Namor can lift it no problem now, but it's not Spencer's idea then.

Very dumb. Based on the reveal in Thor I have no idea if Spencer new or cared about it. I'm still not sure Marvel fully understands what they allowed.

Zero Esc said:

Is this missing a word? Because I'm confused.

Click to expand...

Typo, meant to be fart noise.

Frank said:

Typo, meant to be fart noise.

Click to expand...

Ah, got it.

Well, it still had tremendous buildup.

When I went to pick up new stuff this week, I cancelled my subs for Secret Empire and Hydra Cap. The girl who works there responded with a chipper "You got it!" which not the kind of enthusiastic reaction I've ever had from her or anyone else their when I'm removing something from my pull list.

But instead of reading into that, it's more worthwhile to read into this person's blog post highlighting Nick Spencer's storied political past in Cincinnati. Yeeeeeesh.

But lastly, and the bright spot here, I picked up Secret Warriors #1 and it was actually a fun read that I really enjoyed. A lot of times team books don't do it for me; I've picked up plenty and later dropped them. This might be another like that, but I feel something different here. For one, though starting out as an event tie-in is kind of being born under a bad sign, it's only slightly earlier than starting spawned from an event and that's been a good thing. In this case, the team is focused immediately. The first issue doesn't need reasons to pull together an assortment of unrelated characters. Each of the cast is an Inhuman, the Inhumans are under threat, which makes this feel much more like an X-Men book than an Inhumans book.

Well, Inhumans plus an angry red dinosaur.



This is easily the most I've liked a group of Inhumans in ... ever. Marvel is as addicted to cancelling series as they are making events, but I'm hoping this title finds an audience and sticks around.

Covar said:

I hate to give Nick Spencer some credit, but he's totally playing by the rules of Mjölnir, at least since Jason Aaron went and changed them in Thor. Because while it used to be that you had to be a good and worthy person to lift the hammer (why many villains, including Dr. Doom, have tried and failed), Aaron changed it so that you only had to believe you were worth. It's why Thor can't lift the hammer after Nick Fury tells him that atheists are right.

Click to expand...

And now, with those new rules, Dr. Doom COULD lift it.

Any world where Dr. Doom can lift Thor's hammer is a dumb world.

Covar said:

it used to be that you had to be a good and worthy person to lift the hammer (why many villains, including Dr. Doom, have tried and failed)

Click to expand...

Wasn't the old rule, "Anyone Odin himself would have judged worthy...?"
And if we're going to get caught up* in a rules-lawyering session, there's a pretty significant difference between "lift" and "wield."

--Patrick
*In the comic, not on the forum.

ThatNickGuy said:

And now, with those new rules, Dr. Doom COULD lift it.

Any world where Dr. Doom can lift Thor's hammer is a dumb world.

Click to expand...

Dr. Doom was the first to come to mind. No one thinks more highly of himself in the Marvel universe.

That said, my wife is reading Hickman's Fantastic Four and to her Doom >>>>>>>>>>Reed

Curious how she'll feel when she hits Secret Wars.

I thought we were done here, but NOPE! Stores aren't open yet for me and I won't be able to get anything until late thanks to work, and I also won't be picking up Secret Empire #2 ... but other people don't have those problems, so #2's big twist has been leaked:


Yeah, so those claims a year ago when Hydra Cap was revealed? Hahaha. Funny thing to me is that Tumblr was saying it'd be okay with Hydra Cap/Secret Empire if this was what was really going on, but they are not okay with it. Unfortunately, other shit happened this month that really makes it hard to read. Guess we don't need the Cosmic Cube to fix the story now, which means people like Yo-yo and Rick Jones are probably dead for the foreseeable future.

Reddit is so upset about this, trying to come up with theories to twist around this so that Hydra Cap = real Cap, and it's hilarious.

Ugggggggggggggggggggggggggggggh this is beyond stupid. This is like in Sluggy Freelance where it turned out that scary mean version of Aylee was a clone the whole time and the real Aylee was in...a furnace or something? I dunno I stopped caring after Rick bitched out and accepted the crappy dystopian world he lived in.

Yoshimickster said:

Ugggggggggggggggggggggggggggggh this is beyond stupid. This is like in Sluggy Freelance where it turned out that scary mean version of Aylee was a clone the whole time and the real Aylee was in...a furnace or something? I dunno I stopped caring after Rick bitched out and accepted the crappy dystopian world he lived in.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't think it was stupid except Marvel said a year ago that Hydra Cap was not a parallel universe Cap. Oy.

Zero Esc said:

I wouldn't think it was stupid except Marvel said a year ago that Hydra Cap was not a parallel universe Cap. Oy.

Click to expand...

Didn't they also say that Cap definitely wasn't brainwashed & had always secretly been a Hydra agent & then print a comic showing how he was brainwashed into becoming a Hydra agent? Basically if you listen to anything Marvel (comics division) has to say about their characters you're doing it wrong.

Well actually it's more that Marvel are doing it wrong. Very very wrong.

mikerc said:

Didn't they also say that Cap definitely wasn't brainwashed & had always secretly been a Hydra agent & then print a comic showing how he was brainwashed into becoming a Hydra agent? Basically if you listen to anything Marvel (comics division) has to say about their characters you're doing it wrong.

Well actually it's more that Marvel are doing it wrong. Very very wrong.

Click to expand...

They defended that lie by saying changed memories isn't the same as brainwashing.

But if they hadn't said anything, the Hydra Cap reveal wouldn't have gotten the $attention$ that it did. Marvel is better at advertising controversy and events than new titles--they expect the comic book stores to advertise for them, as if they're Marvel stores.

And now Secret Empire is both controversial AND an event, so double win!

You'd think an event that's offended so many people would be more eventful, but after #0 it's been 79 pages of boring and then that cliffhanger. Marvel is advertising the tie-ins as integral, which would be laughable except those are the books where things are actually happening.

Update: that Hydra Magneto that was supposed to be just a variant cover with no plot relevance?

Yeah, it has plot relevance.

Essentially Hydra Cap offered Magneto a mutant nation as a way of easing his transition without mutant conflict. As a show of good faith, he gave Magneto a gift--a box containing Red Skull's severed head.

This doesn't feel like Magneto to me. I feel like he'd see what's happening to the Inhumans for what it is and remember. (Though I have no idea what the continuity on his WWII-era status is since Secret Wars boosted the timeline.)

On the less shitty end, Secret Warriors continues to be the only good thing about this event. Panels like this have more political relevance to the real world than the main event's flimsy allegory:

#3 came out today. Quasar is comatose. Hank Pym might fuse with Ultron. Sharon is still stuck with Hydra Cap. I didn't actually read the issue this time. I don't care. Even the people liking this event said this was a boring, do-nothing issue. They've ALL been boring, so-nothing issues, each with a final page to pretend something will happen next issue.

WWII Steve looks to be HeadSteve. Punisher joined Hydra, which is less shocking than anyone at Marvel probably thinks it is.

Meh.

I'm still waiting for them to start an event-within-an-event because this thing is going to drag on way the hell too long.

Zappit said:

I'm still waiting for them to start an event-within-an-event because this thing is going to drag on way the hell too long.

Click to expand...

Venomverse and Generations both begin before Secret Empire ends.