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Okay, this will be TLDR for some so feel free to skip to the bottom if your attention span is wan...ooh whats that over there?

So remember this?


If you are like me you were probably upset by it. Pretty horrible stuff.

But yet... something about it never felt right to me. I watched a few more of her videos and she used some... really odd "christian" language, more like what you would expect from a hollywood movie about "fanatical christians" that had never actually met any but read something about them. It just felt really fake to me and she looked like she was always ready to break into a smirk.

Turns out I wasn't wrong:


My searching for a little more info on her led me to find some bizarre stuff, the worst of which was a website for a fake church that was just one big "ultra-conservative christian" forum. Basically it was nothing more than a bunch of fake christians posting on a forum, with what looked like more activity than we see here in a year. These people are... active to say the least.
Imagine that, possibly hundreds of people posting on a forum intended to make a religion look bad. It was... kind of creepy to be honest. Anyone who knew anything about christianity would know it was fake, I mean, anyone who had any common sense could tell. They kind of stopped hiding it once I got to the thread about the pastor who gave "Pedo-Bear" panties to the girls.

So here's what I saw yesterday: Tons of people (not here), mainly on facebook, freaking out about this girls video, proclaiming that "this is why I hate Christians!" and "I'm praying for God to take a shit on her fucking head" and several statements about either raping or murdering her.

And it was all a big troll.

I'm guessing the majority of those people will never actually know she was a "troll". Her video was seen by millions of people whom she has now affected with her "pretend" hateful rant.

Honestly it tells me two things:
1) It's disappointing for me, as a Christian that something like this was so believable. Sadly, it was. That says a lot about whats wrong with the religion I purport to be a part of. I hope more Christians take from this that they need to learn to love people rather than use their religion to "allow" them to hate.
and 2) How do we as a society deal with how easy it is to dupe people using things like youtube? From Shirley Sherrod being fired by the Obama administration over an edited video, to the guy who pretended to be a pimp at Acorn to this girl, there have been some very real consequences to their actions. Some tangible, some emotional but still real. Even our news agencies have all jumped on board the "post first-think later" bandwagon it seems.

So how do we avoid being duped? How do you avoid it or do you? What websites help parse the truth (other than snopes of course ) for you? Is this something you think our society will get better at dealing with or worse?
Alternative question: Whats the worst you have ever been duped?

The sad thing to me is how many people perceive Christianity that way, and that nothing I can say or do will really alter their perception, unfortunately. So, then I get stuck in a position of not really knowing what to do about my faith, besides just never bring it up.

And that doesn't exactly make me really happy, either.

I just thought she was crazy, I never thought it actually reflected on Christianity. As for how we can prevent being duped... you can't. You can be skeptical, and that will save you most of the time, but every once in a while someone will still con you. I guess the only thing you can do is try not to invest too much into something without doing some serious research to make sure it is legit.

P.S.: How devoid of common sense and morality does a person have to be when they start making "troll videos" in response to an enormous tragedy?

I do not believe single source material/articles and much of what I read in the 'news'.

Tress said:

P.S.: How devoid of common sense and morality does a person have to be when they start making "troll videos" in response to an enormous tragedy?

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Well thats an interesting question. That was kind of my response to the fake "christian" forum I found as well. Why would anyone do that sort of thing to anyone, Christian, Muslim, Democrat, you pick. It just seems... like such a waste of time and energy.
As to this girl, I dunno, I get the feeling that she learned her lesson the moment her info got posted online and she had to shut her phone number down.
Added at: 19:07

Piotyr said:

The sad thing to me is how many people perceive Christianity that way, and that nothing I can say or do will really alter their perception, unfortunately. So, then I get stuck in a position of not really knowing what to do about my faith, besides just never bring it up.

And that doesn't exactly make me really happy, either.

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How much of that happens to people in all walks of life though? If you believe Fox News liberals are coming turn you into socialist communist muslim african americans and if you believe the other side, etc, etc.
People don't seem interested in watching or reading anything that doesn't agree with their already set world view. Thats part of why I want to be a teacher, I want to push kids outside of that world but thats clearly not enough to change the way things are.
Added at: 19:07

Disconnected said:

I do not believe single source material/articles and much of what I read in the 'news'.

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So do you just not believe it or do you check it between sources to parse out what you should take as the real story?

Espy said:

How much of that happens to people in all walks of life though? If you believe Fox News liberals are coming turn you into socialist communist muslim african americans and if you believe the other side, etc, etc.
People don't seem interested in watching or reading anything that doesn't agree with their already set world view. Thats part of why I want to be a teacher, I want to push kids outside of that world but thats clearly not enough to change the way things are.?

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It is one of the strongest biases we have as humans, the confirmation bias. There are some instances where we do not fall for it and we are able to overcome it through training. This is one of the topics I have begun actively researching (with some very interesting results so far!) But there is a lot more to learn and, as you have pointed out, is critically important to education.

MindDetective said:

It is one of the strongest biases we have as humans, the confirmation bias. There are some instances where we do not fall for it and we are able to overcome it through training. This is one of the topics I have begun actively researching (with some very interesting results so far!) But there is a lot more to learn and, as you have pointed out, is critically important to education.

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Man I would love to read any research you come up with if you publish it.

And add in pictures because I'm sure it's all going to go way over my head.

Espy said:

Man I would love to read any research you come up with if you publish it.

And add in pictures because I'm sure it's all going to go way over my head.

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I and some students will be writing a couple of things up beginning later this semester and through the semester. If any of it goes to press, you can be sure I'll be announcing it here.

Sweet.

If it's on the internet, I usually take it with a grain of salt. This video was outrageous. I didn't comment on it when I first saw it here because I didn't know if she was real or a big fake. I knew that eventually someone would find out the truth behind it.

I think the worst I have been duped was the Dry Erase Board Resignation. I believed it because I wanted it to be true.

I want charts and diagrams. They don't have to be accurate or give a clear picture, I just want it.

Wasabi Poptart said:

I think the worst I have been duped was the Dry Erase Board Resignation. I believed it because I wanted it to be true.

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This.

As is my general tendency, I see it similarly to marketing/sales. If you can push the right buttons, you can sell to anyone, and that's true whether you're making fake videos or selling broadband internet packages. Skepticism/education don't inherently protect you being sold, they just make it harder for the seller to find and push those buttons.

How do you keep from being duped? You don't have to. You just have to remember that people are individuals, and that the actions of a single person don't speak for an entire group. She could have been completely honest, and it still wouldn't have mattered. It would have made -her- look bad, but not her religion.

That people use it as fuel for their religion hate only speaks of their laziness in proving themselves right. I've been known to debate against religion, but were I to cite her as any sort of example, I'd only be destroying my credibility to anyone with half a braincell.

Blair Witch. I am such a ridiculous tool for that. I really bought into it. I saw something on Discovery or TLC about the "found footage." I thought that if it was on TLC/Disc then it must be real. Ugh. Dumb.

As for the girl in the video, it makes me sad. However, her commentary is somewhat astute though. It seems to me that the majority of Christians are Christian in name only, and do not actually live like Christians should. Romans 12 gives a pretty good outline of what it should look like.

[quote="drawn_inward] I thought that if it was on TLC/Disc then it must be real. Ugh. Dumb.

[/quote]

Next on discovery, Ancient Aliens: The hunt for historic extra terrestrials.

Ravenpoe said:

[quote="drawn_inward] I thought that if it was on TLC/Disc then it must be real. Ugh. Dumb.

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Next on discovery, Ancient Aliens: The hunt for historic extra terrestrials.[/quote]
I knew it!!! Where is my tinfoil hat?!

I just don't believe anything online anymore.

Like I said in the other thread, I never really believed her video in the first place, it just seemed too nutty to be real. That fact doesn't make her any less of a loathsome C uhn Tee.

Tress said:

P.S.: How devoid of common sense and morality does a person have to be when they start making "troll videos" in response to an enormous tragedy?

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Somewhere between Ann Coulter and a puppy-kicking pedophile, I think.

In this case did it matter whether the movie was real or not?

The question isn't about being duped, its about extrapolating anectodotal evidence:

"There's a woman writing crazy hateful mean stuff and claiming it has to do with Christianity"
Wrong Conclusion - Christianity is a dangerous faith.
Right Conclusion - This woman is crazy

"There's a group of people going to soldiers' funerals and saying crazy hateful non-sequitors and claiming it has to do with Christianity"
Wrong Conclusion - Christianity is a dangerous faith
Right Conclusion - Westboro babtist church are crazy

"There's a group of people going around and killing people and calling it a holy Jihaad in the name of Islam"
Wrong Conclusion - Islam is a dangerous faith (or better yet, 10% of all muslims are terrorists)
Right Conclusion - Terrorists are crazy

"There's a group of Islamic preachers that go around talking about how women basically have no rights"
Wrong Conclusion - Islam hates women
Right Conclusion - A group of Islamic preachers and possibly their congregation have a culturally biased view of Islam that is not reflected in the vast majority of extra-cultural Islamic faiths."

The last one is a bit tricky, and the one that leads to problems. This woman spouting off a pot of crazy is just some crazy woman. When Pat Robertson states that Katrina happened because of abortion or 9/11 happened because of gays then there is a more legitimate argument to extrapolate to the congregation.

One of the best thing you can do, as a Christian, is to publicly dissavow people like Pat Robertson and their congregations, in the same way that Islamic moderates publicly dissavow the radical idiots in their groups.

As for the other stuff, I don't know. There's not a ton you can do to fight against gross logical failures as its considered "A-ok" in our society to extrapolate from anectdotal evidence.

I guess this is not a thread for me since I really don't like religion and don't agree with christianity but, yeah, this girl was trolling and a lot of people took it as serious stuff... I can see why. Do you know how many comments I have seen from christian americans saying that what happened in Japan is god's punishment for Pearl Harbor?

And they mean it...

Morphine said:

I guess this is not a thread for me since I really don't like religion and don't agree with christianity but, yeah, this girl was trolling and a lot of people took it as serious stuff... I can see why. Do you know how many comments I have seen from christian americans saying that what happened in Japan is god's punishment for Pearl Harbor?

And they mean it...

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Exactly this. She may have been trolling, but there are a lot of people who fully agree with the point of view presented and who identify themselves as Christian. They make the faith look bad, in my opinion. But that's also why it was so instantly believable as being genuine.

Morphine said:

I guess this is not a thread for me since I really don't like religion and don't agree with christianity but, yeah, this girl was trolling and a lot of people took it as serious stuff... I can see why. Do you know how many comments I have seen from christian americans saying that what happened in Japan is god's punishment for Pearl Harbor?

And they mean it...

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I'm an atheist, and have some serious complaints about religion, christianity included, but not because of people like her.

Ravenpoe said:

I'm an atheist, and have some serious complaints about religion, christianity included, but not because of people like her.

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Heh. I'm a mix faith really
I was having a conversation with my co-worker about this. I believe that Religions are needed to keep "certain people in line" so to speak.
We, as human, haven't really reach the level that being good just to be good. I met many religious people saying that being good is require to get bigger reward in the afterlife. Or the hard life you have now is a test for the after life, etc etc etc etc. (You get the idea) If there isn't any religion what-so-ever, then people might incline to do whatever they want cause they can.

Ravenpoe said:

I'm an atheist, and have some serious complaints about religion, christianity included, but not because of people like her.

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Well, obviously my reasons are not "just because of people like her" my concerns about religion are way more than just that, but this is not the thread for that

Null said:

Exactly this. She may have been trolling, but there are a lot of people who fully agree with the point of view presented and who identify themselves as Christian. They make the faith look bad, in my opinion. But that's also why it was so instantly believable as being genuine.

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And this is part of the problem Espy was describing. The sense that there are "a lot of people like this", when it's likely in the vast minority. The girl was the embodiment of an ignorant view of Christians, not the embodiment of the average Christian.

EDIT: That's not to say that there aren't anyone like this anywhere. A person can and will use any justification they can find to hate what they will, but the common thread is the ignorance, not the faith.

Piotyr said:

And this is part of the problem Espy was describing. The sense that there are "a lot of people like this", when it's likely in the vast minority. The girl was the embodiment of an ignorant view of Christians, not the embodiment of the average Christian.

EDIT: That's not to say that there aren't anyone like this anywhere. A person can and will use any justification they can find to hate what they will, but the common thread is the ignorance, not the faith.

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Yes, pretty much this. That doesn't mean there isn't a loud minority of idiots but I'm not sure painting an entire religion, compromised of over 2 BILLION people in various churches with various theologies and beliefs (or any religion for that matter), with a similar brush is any fairer than a christian looking at the wrong this girl did and assuming that all non-christians are as vile as she is.

I dunno. Most people are going to focus on the extreme--or at least negative--anomaly and ignore the boring, less grabby norm. Example: When that one woman was paralyzed by the swine flu vaccine, everyone used her as the example not to take it when most people are fine. People still talk about being scared of flying even though most airplanes are not occupied by terrorists and make it to their destination safely. People are not only willing but eager to believe that most religious people are illogical and extremists even though plenty of religious people are pissed off by the few who make them look bad. It'll keep happening forever and ever.

Null said:

Exactly this. She may have been trolling, but there are a lot of people who fully agree with the point of view presented and who identify themselves as Christian. They make the faith look bad, in my opinion. But that's also why it was so instantly believable as being genuine.

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Well.....no.

It's instantly believable because people lack rational application of inductive reasoning. At its core the inductive argument:

A: All Christians I have seen have crazy mean points of view
B : Therefore an abnormally high concentration of Christians have crazy mean points of view
C: Therefore Christianity promotes crazy mean points of view.

is at best what is technically considered 'weak inductive' argument. But we don't even have that here. What we have here is this argument

A: I have seen both kind and normal as well as crazy and mean Christians
B: Therefore there is an abnormally high concentration of Christians that have crazy mean points of view
C: Therefore Christianity promotes crazy mean points of view.

This doesn't even qualify as a 'weak inductive' argument. It's actually a complete logical fallacy as A does not imply B. This highlights one of the biggest weaknesses of induction which is the fact that it is highly influenced by bias, in this case confirmation bias.

The irony to me is that the current Richard Dawkins generation of atheists/areligious claim rationalism as the foundational principle of their arguments against the existence of God, which is fine, but then go on to use weak inductive reasoning to attack religion, which is...for lack of a better word, TOTALLY RETARDED. Or...irrational.

Karl Popper was probably one of the most important rationalist philosophers and recognized that Hume's so called "problem of induction" was a massive hurdle for rationalists and therefore induction needed to be used with a high level of care. Ironically the way Dawkins and co uses induction is not far from the self confirming non-falsifiable theories put forward by Marx and Freud that were absolutely demolished by Popper.

Don't tell him this, but sometimes Necronic is so smart he scares me.

^ Agree with the smoking baby.

But seriously Terrik, don't tell him. I don't want it to go to his head.

Espy said:

But seriously Terrik, don't tell him. I don't want it to go to his head.

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It's cool. I already knew.

Just to make a counterpoint though, are the posters above saying "most Christians", or are they saying "a lot of Christians"? Both statements are comparative, but the second is subjectively so. If I've anecdotally seen 1 million Christian comments supporting this nutjob, that does qualify as "a lot" to some people. Given the sheer number of Christians in this country, a number of supporters equal to the size of NYC would still be very much in the minority, but also very large (to most people, I would venture).