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Lately I've been pondering what exactly I'm going to do after I get my AS degree (which I should have before 2011). One option I've been seriously considering is enlisting in either the air force or the navy after I'm finished with college. With the economy the way it is, it seems like one of the easier immediate career options to get started in. Here are some pros and cons, according to my current understandings:

PROS:
-Can easily continue education during service and go from my AS degree to a Bachelor degree or full masters degree
-Chance of serving on a ship, or being a pilot, which would be awesome. Likely though with my current skill set I'd be working behind a computer at all times, which I'd be happy with.
-Chicks dig the uniforms.
-Large parts of living expenses taken care of, leaving me free to simply let my money save up.
-Chance to see other parts of the world

CONS:
-Chance of being sent into battle and getting killed
-I refuse on moral grounds to fire a weapon at another human being for anything short of immediate self-defense. Crazed axe-murderer breaks into my house and is charging at me or my family? I'll shoot him. Me going to somebody else's country to go pewpewpew because "They be nazis/commies/terrorists/insert-villain-of-the-decade!"? I'd be rather hesitant.
-Will be locked into my decision for 4 years or more. Not exactly a huge issue, but the idea of lack of freedom to change to something different makes me uneasy.

So, anyone here who's served have any particular advice or can link some helpful resources? I'm thinking of visiting a recruitment office some time in the near future to talk about it, but I know how they'll say anything they can (I've heard stories of even flat-out lying out of their ass) to get you to enlist.

If you've got that much of a moral objection, you might want to think twice. The point of the armed forces is to shoot people. Even if you yourself aren't pulling the trigger, you're doing duties without which the guys on the ground can't shoot people effectively. No matter how far removed you are from the fighting, that's what it ultimately boils down to. (You could work IT for the Navy in Washington so that resources can be efficiently allocated in the U.S. so that we can free up more equipment and personnel to patrol the world's oceans so that when the shooting starts, we can kill lots of people very effectively)

I can live with the fact that the military kills people. All of us US citizens have to live with that fact simply by paying taxes and voting for politicians who allow it. What I don't think I can live with is being the one to pull the trigger.

David said:

I can live with the fact that the military kills people. All of us US citizens have to live with that fact simply by paying taxes and voting for politicians who allow it. What I don't think I can live with is being the one to pull the trigger.

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If you join the Air Force, you're not going to see any combat. You're going to work at a base in Germany fixing helicopters or monitoring a radar.

A friend of mine was in the Air Force and they were deployed for guard duty in Iraq.

If you join the military there is a chance that you may have to shoot at another human being. If you have that big of a moral objection, you may want to think twice of it. Sure there are positions in any branch of military that you may NEVER see combat, but that is a maybe. You will be train in basic combat and such and probably will be deploy somewhere where they need YOU to be. They won't care of your morals (I assume).

Your morals are very important in the military as you are the final arbiter of your actions. It is your right and duty not to follow an illegal order, but you will have to follow any legal order which would include using your military specialty to kill a properly and legally designated enemy.

You may also be assigned to guard duty in a non warfare area where you will be expected to use up to, and including lethal force to prevent intruders from entering a designated area. If you are guarding a "designated area" you will not be told what is in it worth guarding so, and you will have to go on the moral decision of others above you in your chain of command.

Me going to somebody else's country to go pewpewpew because "They be nazis/commies/terrorists/insert-villain-of-the-decade!"? I'd be rather hesitant.

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I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

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The main purpose of the military for the United States, is to protect the Constitution. Period fucking dot. Your oath is not to the president, it is to support and defend the constitution, that being said you swear to place yourself and your actions under the control of those above you to do this. Now when I joined, was I eager to go off and "kill a commie for Mommy!" hell no. Knowing there is a code, a set of specific laws of warfare that would guide ALL legal aggressive actions I might be in; that politicians or not the military was still under civilian control, made it easier for me to decide, yes I can follow this oath. Including the use of lethal force against someone not attacking me specifically but working against me, my family, and country in general.

My husband's been in the Navy for over 14 years and has never fired a weapon at another human being. Yes, he is obligated to follow orders including killing the enemy, but since he had 10 straight years of sea duty that was not something he had to do. Even when he was deployed to Africa and worked with a SEAL team he never had to shoot anyone.

That said, I think joining the military is a great opportunity if you want to take it. You get to see places you might never have seen. You also learn a lot about yourself. I wouldn't depend on it for education, though. A lot of people get in and suddenly other things take priority over getting a degree.

I love ya, David, but people who join the military knowing in advance that they have objections to doing what the military is made for is kinda dumb. It's like joining an accounting firm knowing that you hate math.

I was in the Navy for a couple years as an Electronic Technician and it was some of my best years, I enjoyed it, but I'm glad I'm out. That being said you can't choose any field you want, first you have to take the ASVAB (sp?) test, it's basically an IQ test where you are graded against everyone else, my score, for example, was a 90, so I did better than 90% of the other people that have taken the test and the highest score is 99, there is no 100. I believe any score over 75 and you can choose any career in the Navy. I wanted to go into cryptology when I joined up but they didn't have any jobs in the field available and they tried to push me into the nuclear field (I should have listened, good potential for jobs when you get out). but anyway if they don't have any "jobs behind a computer all day" then you don't get that job. Another thing is if you fail out of whatever school you jion you get dropped and get put into the shit job school boatswains mate which is basically the guy who does all the work no one else wants to do. so if you decide to enlist, make sure you know what you want, and if you get it, study hard and don't fail out of the school. And tax free gas and everything is nice too

What about the Merchant Marines?

Not a serviceman here, nor an expert on the exact benefits or educational opportunities, but this may be what you're looking for. You won't receive veteran benefits (I don't think so, anyway), but there seems to be a lot of career opportunities, you can serve your country in a critical capacity, there's a (currently) minimal chance that you'll be in a situation where you would have to kill a fellow human being.

Of course, if we get into a fight with someone who has their own navy or air force, that may not be much comfort, but that's the risk you run to be a part of those services.

Do more research obviously, but I think this is a good alternative to any of the armed services branches, which sound like they wouldn't be a good fit for you.

It's really darkly ironic to me that joining the military to fight for freedom across the globe entails you, yourself, giving up your own freedom for a lot of years to get deployed or ping ponged or sent wherever Uncle Sam thinks is necessary.

The Lovely Boner said:

It's really darkly ironic to me that joining the military to fight for freedom across the globe entails you, yourself, giving up your own freedom for a lot of years to get deployed or ping ponged or sent wherever Uncle Sam thinks is necessary.

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I don't think it is... And I don't feel a deep connection with the military or anything.

The Lovely Boner said:

It's really darkly ironic to me that joining the military to fight for freedom across the globe entails you, yourself, giving up your own freedom for a lot of years to get deployed or ping ponged or sent wherever Uncle Sam thinks is necessary.

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The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few. It has always been like this with any military, a select group of people live a harsher life so that others may enjoy the benefits.

Can't really give you any advice there, David, as I can't really relate. Mandatory service here, 6-12 months as a soldier or 13 months in civilian service (working at kindergartens, old people homes etc.). Only a handful go career, except those who applied to different special units (such as the rapid deployment force). And let's face it, my neck of the global woods is very, very much less unlikely to end up as a party in a conflict than your neck of the woods.

one Pro you forgot is self discipline. Rarely do you meet people who have a sense of discipling as well cultivated as ex military. That of course excludes the cases of PTSD that can't operate in society all that well.

My oldest friend was a serious fuckup, like serious fuckup. At one point I simply wrote him off as dead. I assumed that he would either OD or end up in jail for something or another. Then he joined the army, and served his 4 years (I think it was 4). He somehow landed a post in the Old Guard, and then did a tour in Afghanistan (first time the old guard has seen combat in like a century iirc). Anyways, he got a bronze star during his service there. Long story short he went from someone that probably would not survive another 5 years to someone who I looked up to. He's now back in school getting his bachelors and doing well from what I can tell. And he never would be where he is now if it hadn't been for the self discipline he learned in the military.

That said, having a moral objection to killing someone may be a real problem. It depends on where you end up though. I know guys that are basically tech support. And don't think that your moral considerations will only be tested in the military. Shit, even civvies have to think about that at some point. I know that some of the research I have done will probably be used to kill people.

You're planning to enlist during wartime. There is a significant chance you might get forward deployed simply because when you're out of basic, you can be moved without interrupting any operations - ie Specialist Wilson has been at McGwire AFB doing tech support for 4 years, you and he have the same skill set. They'll send you overseas to do the same job because it's easier than deploying him.

Docseverin;379231][QUOTE=The Lovely Boner said:

It's really darkly ironic to me that joining the military to fight for freedom across the globe entails you, yourself, giving up your own freedom for a lot of years to get deployed or ping ponged or sent wherever Uncle Sam thinks is necessary.

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The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few. It has always been like this with any military, a select group of people live a harsher life so that others may enjoy the benefits.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much this. I guess I'm not sure what the alternative is though... How exactly should they do it? Show up when you feel like it? Go only where you want to go?

You join the military to *serve* your country. Generally *serving* entails something other than *free to do whatever I want whenever I want*.

I don't know how to run the military, and I don't care. I think they could get more people possibly if they would allow people to sign up for non-combat roles or set number of years. I would love to work for the military if there was any way I could do so with a 0% chance of me being sent to kill the brown people our government is mad at this decade.

The Lovely Boner said:

I don't know how to run the military, and I don't care. I think they could get more people possibly if they would allow people to sign up for non-combat roles or set number of years. I would love to work for the military if there was any way I could do so with a 0% chance of me being sent to kill the brown people our government is mad at this decade.

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While I agree with you in this sentiment, I think the number of people filling combat roles would drastically fall if this were the policy, and our military would suffer for it.

Basically, so long as their isn't a draft and service is still voluntary, I'm fine with how it's run now. I also have no desire to enlist, because I'm definitely not cut out for it.

Navy, stay out of the combat forces areas, Air Force, stay away from the Security Police or combat forces. Usually doing that will keep you out of "ground" combat situations, you still might be deployed, but probably not in combat situations. Pilot... prepare to kill people, it's gonna happen eventually. Communications was the field that I was in in the Air Force, job was Communications Computer Systems Operator, base to base comm, running the base main-frame (they've gone mostly to pc-based networks now) and setting up and scheduling repair work.

You will get weapons training, some fields more than others, so if your objection is with the training don't do it.

Boner, you basically do just that now. You should know (idiotic if you don't) what your job will be before you go into basic, and have a length of service built into your enlistment. Depending on your job code, you might be able to get some wiggle room on post-service Guard requirement. As to the second part of your statement, don't enlist. No matter the job, you are either doing the killing, or supporting the killing by your work.

Sparhawk said:

. As to the second part of your statement, don't enlist. No matter the job, you are either doing the killing, or supporting the killing by your work.

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I am indirectly killing people by paying my taxes anyways, I would have no moral qualms with doing accounting for the military or being the manager of some veterans' organization or something else like that.

I've still heard of people being sold on the military as them working behind the lines and then them ending up down the line getting sent to the Middle East! If that can happen to one person, I will never join the military.

I'm fine with you never joining.

The Lovely Boner said:

I am indirectly killing people by paying my taxes anyways, I would have no moral qualms with doing accounting for the military or being the manager of some veterans' organization or something else like that.

I've still heard of people being sold on the military as them working behind the lines and then them ending up down the line getting sent to the Middle East! If that can happen to one person, I will never join the military.

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Don't join.

You can get sent into an active operation theater doing any job at all. Doesn't mean that you are pulling a trigger (basically that's Army and Marines anyway [oversimplified I know]). You can be sent into active service in a forward location doing ANY job at all in the military, it's in the basic job description, cook, admin, mechanic, radio operator, police, infantry, transportation.... doesn't mean that you are on the front line.

From the sound of what you have posted, granted not much in this thread, you don't want to be in the military, you want a government job in an office. Somebody posted the Oath above, if you don't believe in that, all the way, don't join.

Yeah. I actually already work for the Federal Government! And despite some of my pinko commie bullshit, I do respect the troops and want to make things easier for them.


And, man, you want me in the military. I am such a hard worker. When someone's paying me for my time I bust my ass so hard. I am that guy that doesn't want to steal one minute of government time. I feel so bad if I think I've wasted one iota of the government/every tax payer's time and money.

Even Admins and accountants are needed overseas.

Now to David. When you talk to a recruiter stay on your toes. They shouldn't out right lie to you, but they will leave out information that doesn't benefit them. They are salespeople so keep that in your head.

If you think this is something you want to do then DO NOT sign a contract if it is not exactly what you want. Figure out what you want before you head off to MEPS. When there they will offer you a contract and job, based on what you want and what they need. These people will try and get you in the position they need to fill that day and have no qualms with telling you that job you want is unavailable. There is no need to sign the contract when you are there. I say this again, if they do not give you the length you want, the education benefits you want, and the job you want WALK AWAY! You don't have to sign, and they will either get you what you want then and there or call you back when it's available.

The Lovely Boner said:

Yeah. I actually already work for the Federal Government! And despite some of my pinko commie bullshit, I do respect the troops and want to make things easier for them.


And, man, you want me in the military. I am such a hard worker. When someone's paying me for my time I bust my ass so hard. I am that guy that doesn't want to steal one minute of government time. I feel so bad if I think I've wasted one iota of the government/every tax payer's time and money.

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You could join the USO.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

That is the oath of enlistment, not something to be taken lightly. Look into GS or NSPS jobs if you want to work for the Government without the possibility of deploying.

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If you are going to enlist no matter what, here are somethings so that you can go in with as much rank as possible. I went in as a PFC so here it is....your AS will entitle you to the rank of at least Private First Class if not Specialist (SPC is often reserved for people with Bachelors.) Also talk to your recruiter about getting the Common Skills task book and testing on those skills as well as taking a PT test if you need to do that to get your SPC. Going in as a PFC or a SPC will be worth more than a taxable cash bonus in the long run but ask about bonuses too, I have soldiers coming in with $60,000 bonuses for the active first contract so you spend 4 years active and 4 years reserve. No matter what you will sign an 8 year contract with as little as 2 years active the rest will be spent on Inactive reserve which has a 60% call back rate right now.

The Lovely Boner said:

I don't know how to run the military, and I don't care. I think they could get more people possibly if they would allow people to sign up for non-combat roles or set number of years. I would love to work for the military if there was any way I could do so with a 0% chance of me being sent to kill the brown people our government is mad at this decade.

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They call these civilian employees and they are all over in the military.

Also known as GS (Government Service) or NSPS (National Security Personnel System) I worked with Civilian Nurses at Walter Reed Army Medical Center the jewel of Army medicine.

My father is a GS(E) employee (E= Equivalent), contracted out. He's been doing that for 28 years, since he got out of the Corps. A deeply satisfying career for him. You could do worse than work in this field.

But unless you subscribe to the below with all of your heart:

Docseverin said:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

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then you have no business serving in the military.

The oath of enlistment is one that I took 9 years ago, 2 months after 9/11. I had wanted to be a Marine my entire life. 9/11 merely accelerated my timetable. I spent the next 8 years volunteering for anything that even remotely sounded like a deployable slot. Turns out that I kept volunteering for the wrong thing, and had I just stayed patient, I would have deployed several times.

I knew what I was getting in to. I try to live by that oath every day. As soon as I shed some weight, I will take it again. There is a depth of feeling that many people who join the military don't get into. This is fine, but they tend to come out of it with negative experiences. If believing in and accepting this oath doesn't fit into your life's plan, then I suggest you look into GS jobs. This would be the place to start.

I actually am a GS employee right now and got my job via usajobs dot gov. So I apologize for kind of talking out of my ass! I was wrong!

The Lovely Boner said:

I actually am a GS employee right now and got my job via usajobs dot gov. So I apologize for kind of talking out of my ass! I was wrong!

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I don't think that any of us were really getting on you Boner, you just provided a perfect opportunity to be able to use your words as an example. This has been a very open discussion and nobody has gone off on anyone with some of the usual crap that can occur on any board. Really been refreshing.

Funny thing is, I've given serious thought to joining the military from time to time myself. I just wonder how well my psyche evaluations would go.

I'm trained in firearms and some martial arts (recent) and in fairly good shape, but *shrug*.

Shegokigo said:

Funny thing is, I've given serious thought to joining the military from time to time myself. I just wonder how well my psyche evaluations would go.

I'm trained in firearms and some martial arts (recent) and in fairly good shape, but *shrug*.

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I would think you'd have more trouble joining up because of asking and telling, or rather because you're not supposed to do either of those

I wouldn't ask or tell, they'd figure it out, all on their own. :slywink:

Shegokigo said:

I wouldn't ask or tell, they'd figure it out, all on their own. :slywink:

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They have their work cut out for them, then. What with you being so subtle about it and all that...

Wait, Shego's gay!?!

You'd be surprised. Supposedly I don't give off the "vibe" in person, as many have told me. *shrug*

Shegokigo said:

You'd be surprised. Supposedly I don't give off the "vibe" in person, as many have told me. *shrug*

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And people don't always catch the "vibe" in the first place. I for one was surprised to learn that a long-time acquaintance of mine was gay - and everybody else already knew that. Guess my "gaydar" is busted.

I don't remember a psych eval when I joined up but that was 9 years and three months ago so I don't remember much

It's almost like homosexuals are normal people just like everyone else.

The Lovely Boner said:

It's almost like homosexuals are normal people just like everyone else.

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Damn, I ended up sounding like a bigot again, didn't I?

North_Ranger;379574][QUOTE=The Lovely Boner said:

It's almost like homosexuals are normal people just like everyone else.

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Damn, I ended up sounding like a bigot again, didn't I? [/QUOTE]

Yeah, we all think you are a bigot. A mean old bigot.

North_Ranger;379574][QUOTE=The Lovely Boner said:

It's almost like homosexuals are normal people just like everyone else.

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Damn, I ended up sounding like a bigot again, didn't I? [/QUOTE]

Don't ask, don't tell.

That law has been put under a fairly strict set of counter-redtape. It still happens, but it takes significant effort to do it, and I imagine that policy getting stricken soon. I've thought it hugely insulting to US military that it was insinuated they couldn't deal with something like gays in their unit because it was "so dangerous." In the face of watching these kids get blown up by IED's and coming home without legs etc, gays seem like the least of their worries.

There have been known gays in the military since the Spartans wore those FABULOUS outfits!

There was a guy in my unit everyone assumed was gay. But of course, nobody knew for sure as that was before DADT. He took a lot of shit.

I'd like to have a nice, neat ending to this story but I don't. He got transferred to Okinawa and I never saw him again. I do know of two WMs who were actually caught in a compromising situation but I don't think anything ever happened to either of them. One was married and the other was so hot she could boil water by looking at it all sultry.

Apparently gays in the military are tolerated if they are two hot chicks.

Dave said:

There have been known gays in the military since the Spartans wore those FABULOUS outfits!

There was a guy in my unit everyone assumed was gay. But of course, nobody knew for sure as that was before DADT. He took a lot of shit.

I'd like to have a nice, neat ending to this story but I don't. He got transferred to Okinawa and I never saw him again. I do know of two WMs who were actually caught in a compromising situation but I don't think anything ever happened to either of them. One was married and the other was so hot she could boil water by looking at it all sultry.

Apparently gays in the military are tolerated if they are two hot chicks.

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Ah WM's or as my cousin's unit call them. Wookie Monsters.

Chazwozel said:

Ah WM's or as my cousin's unit call them. Wookie Monsters.

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Your cousin's unit is missing out. The ones we had were amazing. The one who got with the dude's wife is still one of the best looking women I've ever seen. And you get them in those dress skirts...Rawr! Yes, we had some more normal WM box-butts, but I'm sure they say the same thing about the quality of men they saw. Some good, some not good.

Then there was the one who tried to kill herself by drinking a non-toxic cleaning agent. Made her very ill but wasn't deadly in the least.

Looking back I knew a lot of freaks in the Corps. Remind me to tell you sometime of the guy who wanted to get out and tried to use M*A*S*H as his masterplan.

WM's? Is there a jargon glossary out there?

I wanted to join the Army after 9/11. I had some buddies join up. I still feel like I should have. I'm too old now for anything but maybe the Guard or the Reserves. My dad was Green Beret, Ranger, 101st Airborne in Vietnam. I wanted to see if I had what it takes to make it through Green Beret training. After seeing the Green Beret training on the History/Military channel, I don't think I would have made it. Ultimately, it was my dad that talked me out of joining. I think I'll always regret not joining though.

Xiaofang Nuren said:

WM's? Is there a jargon glossary out there?

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Women Marines.

Wookie Monsters.

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dr_awkward said:

I wanted to join the Army after 9/11. I had some buddies join up. I still feel like I should have. I'm too old now for anything but maybe the Guard or the Reserves. My dad was Green Beret, Ranger, 101st Airborne in Vietnam. I wanted to see if I had what it takes to make it through Green Beret training. After seeing the Green Beret training on the History/Military channel, I don't think I would have made it. Ultimately, it was my dad that talked me out of joining. I think I'll always regret not joining though.

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My cousin is four years younger than me and joined the Marines after I finished undergrad. I was considering it after I graduated high school, but I didn't lose my way to college. Anyway, he told me if he could do it over again, he'd tell his recruiter to shove Iraq up his ass.

Chazwozel said:

My cousin is four years younger than me and joined the Marines after I finished undergrad. I was considering it after I graduated high school, but I didn't lose my way to college. Anyway, he told me if he could do it over again, he'd tell his recruiter to shove Iraq up his ass.

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One of my best friends is in Iraq right now. He been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan once. He's an EOD. Big fucking brass balls. He doesn't complain at all. I don't know how he does it. Another buddy told me about nearly melting in the 114° heat, in the shade! They do tell me that getting my PhD was better than enlisting.

The whole "Don't-Ask Don't Tell" thing is like a joke that everyone's already heard the punchline to. I had a staff sergeant at one of my units who was, while not exactly in-your-face about it, wasn't trying to hide it, either. There were some jokes cracked about him, both to his face and behind his back, which he took with a grain of salt. Ultimately, everybody really just cared if he did his job and wasn't an asshole.

You know, like a person.

Officer_Charon said:

You know, like a person.

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You got logic on my homophobia! That's going to take forever to wash off!

*snip*

There. Now my intolerance level has been restored.

You know what. Never mind. The joke isn't worth showing a picture of these idiots from the Westboro church.

grrrooosss

Appreciate it, Dave. I want them to come down here. It might be worth the lawsuit/firing that would ensue.