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I was thinking yesterday about the state of roleplaying gaming. A friend of mine was frustrated at how a lot of companies seem to be moving either directly into computer gaming or altering their products try and piggyback off the MMO craze.

What occurred to me is that:

a) the tabletop RPG market has always suffered from oversaturation. The amount of products people are required to buy to keep companies alive is greater than the amount of products that are actually necessary to enjoy a good game. Companies keep churning out figurines, adventure modules and new editions to keep people paying, but only one person in your group needs to have the materials and even then most of the materials aren't really that important if you have a good DM.

b) Although I suspect it's going to burst eventually, MMOs (by which I mostly mean World of WarCraft) are a huge market right now that are getting a lot of people to play games that haven't played anything similar before. 4th Edition D&D is structured in such a way (I'm pretty sure intentionally) to be familiar to MMO players.

In the immediate future, this means "serious" roleplayers suddenly find themselves in a culture shock, where their beloved game is overtaken by philistines who care more about loot and stats than storyline. But in 5-10 years, I bet a lot of the people from MMO-land will have realized the massive potential that tabletop roleplaying offers - a game where you are truly limited only by your imagination instead of a computer game's rules.

Which brings us to:

c) Computer gaming has progressed at a pretty ludicrous rate. Twenty years ago, Myst was near the top of the line in terms of graphics. Now we have Crysis, rendering in realtime. The technical capabilities have also increased dramatically. And various levels of coding have been simplified and turned into editors so that average Joe can make a game with relatively little effort that would have been awesome 10 years ago.

While I was talking to my friend, all of these thoughts went through my head in the few seconds it took him to complain about RPG companies focusing on the PC world. And my response was "yeah, it kinda sucks right now, but I think in 10 years it is going to be amazing."

So basically, what do you think the ultimate form of "true" roleplaying will look like, and what technical capabilities do you think it'll have in 10 or 20 years? I'm defining roleplaying as:

1) Something that is not limited by a game's mechanics - you have the freedom that exists in modern tabletop games to change the rules on a whim and try whatever crazy action you can think of that could plausible work in a situation.

2) An industry that can sustain itself profitably, pretty much indefinitely. I'm sure there are those who argue that the version that exists now is already the "ultimate" form, wherein you don't necessarily need figures or tilesets or anything, just your imagination. But by itself that won't make money, and without companies trying to advertise it and get a profit in return, I don't think "true" roleplaying will ever gain mainstream acceptance the way computer games are (beginning) to.

Here's the thing with tabletop RPGs. There have always been people who are only concerned with loot and stats, they were(are) called munchkins . If you didn't play with them before, no one says you have to play with them now just because the rules got dumbed down. I actually prefer dumbed down rules for the sake of RP (and finding more people willing to play), and all you need to have interesting combat is a good DM who lets you do dumb shit.

Raemon777 said:

1) Something that is not limited by a game's mechanics - you have the freedom that exists in modern tabletop games to change the rules on a whim and try whatever crazy action you can think of that could plausible work in a situation.

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In a way, I think this is already happening, and the rules "dumb-down" of 4e is a symptom, it's just that different groups go in different ways with it. I have some friends who got even more rules-lawyery and loot-obsessed with 4e, and I have others who started running really whacked out games on the fly, using 4e as a base while also letting people be flexible in the name of telling an entertaining story.

What we're really seeing now is the evolution of tabletop RPG rules towards systems that enhance playability and accessibility instead of simply becoming mechanically more efficient. I think we're heading into the zone of systems like ORE, where a simplified base system allows GMs to get creative on a play-by-play basis instead of having huge tax-code-like rulesets that govern everything and take forever to resolve.

I'm actually not as unhappy with the current state of the game as my friend is. I think fourth edition does a lot of good things in terms of mechanics (I don't think it necessarily does the best thing - I prefer mechanics that naturally lend themselves to flavor than mechanics that force you do the flavor entirely by yourself, but I understand there are people who feel differently and I'm glad fourth edition exists for them). What I don't like about 4th edition is simply that the rulebooks are utterly uninspiring. I used to love reading through 3rd edition books because they were chock full of interesting ideas. Now it seems like they're basically lists of abilities, with a little bit of artwork thrown in. Everything I've heard about the rules makes me want to check fourth edition out, but whenever I try to actually read the books to get a sense of the game I just fall asleep.

Ultimately I don't intend this to be a "is 4th edition good or not" thread. What I'm interested in right now is the technical aspects of how gaming will be improved in the next 10 years, in such a way than any random group of players with a good DM can start playing on a whim and have fun, taking advantage of all the advances in technology that are going to happen in the next decade, regardless of their playstyle. My favorite way to DM is to make stuff up as I go along, starting with only the vaguest of notions of where the players will end up. It's produced some of the most interesting sessions that I've run. In 10 years, will it be feasible to develop something that's basically Neverwinter Nights on crack?

Right now we have consoles and TVs becoming more and more like computers. There are some products that exist now that are basically a coffee table with a monitor built into it. That could eventually be a platform for a new form of tabletop gaming, wherein people can gather around and use touchscreen stuff to drag characters around, like miniatures but way cooler. That's the easy part. A slightly harder part is developing a flexible and intuitive system that lets the DM edit terrain on the fly without needing to invest a huge amount of time developing a level beforehand.

Right now that would be the sort of luxury gaming accessory that rich geeks can afford but doesn't really impact gaming as a whole. But our living rooms evolve technologically, I think computer stuff would stop being a "dumbed down" version of roleplaying and instead become a mainstream tool that can facilitate traditional gameplay.

This is why I like the "simplified systems approach". My gaming group includes some hardcore folks and some folks who are really there for the company. If we played hardcore rule-lawyering style, the casual folks would never come back and we would need 4 hours a pop of straight gaming/rules lookup to do anything.

Right now, instead, we have dinner/drinks for an hour and play for two, and wrap up each sessions quickly and easily. If the GM thinks something would be funny, he can come up with a way to do it without it getting too crazy, and if he really likes it, he'll allow it anyway and "Act of God" it into such as form as not to wreck his setup. Works well, and no one needs to get all up in the rules unless they feel like it (and they usually don't).

@Tekeo: the thing is, as computer-assisted gaming becomes less of a luxury and more commonplace, complex rules could actually make a comeback, because you'd have a program on hand to do the more complicated stuff for you. I'm not sure whether what I'm imagining will be here in 10 years or more like 20, but I'm pretty sure it's coming.

Not really. It just means that the mechanic for finding rules is going to change from a table of contents to a ctrl+f. Just because how you view a complicated ruleset is more streamlined doesn't mean the ruleset isn't complicated. Tabletop RPGs are in a decent spot, what with the influx of new people to the hobby. Computers aren't really going to enhance or detract from that.

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------

Heck, Synnibar is an extremely complicated game, and I doubt a way to easily sort through the rules will elevate that game from being one of the worst games published of all time.

Raemon777 said:

@Tekeo: the thing is, as computer-assisted gaming becomes less of a luxury and more commonplace, complex rules could actually make a comeback, because you'd have a program on hand to do the more complicated stuff for you. I'm not sure whether what I'm imagining will be here in 10 years or more like 20, but I'm pretty sure it's coming.

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I agree that it will be easier to carry the rules around with you, but I'm skeptical that we will go back to every player carrying a ruleset around with them, even if it's lighter. There's simply no reason to if the GM can run everything by him/herself. I really, really challenge the idea that players want, in general, to get more granular with the mathematical side of their choices. We're seeing game systems that require fewer fewer roles to perform the same action because we're developing new ways for GMs to resolve actions from only one or two rolls. At best, we're looking at a market for GM-assist-programs.

Now, synced PDAs with dice-rolling/resolution programs would be conceptually cool, but they're not really any improvement over regular dice. I have one, but that's so I don't have to carry a dice-bag, not because it's any better for actual rolling.

If there's anything which computer-assisted gaming will help grow, it's gaming over the internet. Of course, then they're competing directly with, well, games on the internet.

Dream Park

holodeck

Dave said:

holodeck

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^^-- this

With the rise of technology, it is only time when something like this will happen. A GM can "code" all the event into a system where players can play them out in real time. I would so love a Holodeck.

I can't remember where exactly I saw it, but there was a video of a demonstration of D&D being played on MS Surface that looked pretty interesting. Not quite a holodeck, but until those are invented this will have to suffice.

Imagining playing in a holodeck feels kind like cheating. I mean, by the time the average person can do that, the human race wil have basically won at awesomeness.

I can't remember where exactly I saw it, but there was a video of a demonstration of D&D being played on MS Surface that looked pretty interesting. Not quite a holodeck, but until those are invented this will have to suffice.

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Just found it. Here it is:

http://gizmodo.com/5385625/dungeons--dragons-on-the-microsoft-surface

There were some things about the execution that I didn't like (dice rolling too slow, for example), but yeah that's the gist of what I think could be common in 15-20 years. A few plausible steps up might include a screen that wasn't holographic but was kinda "3d-ish", so when you look down at it it looks like you're looking into a world instead of at a flat screen. The wolf was in the ballpark of what I'm imagining there. Yesterday I was

I think the act of actually rolling the dice is an important tactile part of the game. Simulated dice are never quite as satisfying to me. The annoying thing is when you have to add up a bunch of numbers (like from a huge fireball). So what I could see is a program wherein you roll the dice on the table, and then it automatically reads what the roll was (if it can scan the underside of the dice, it can tell what would have been on the top sides, then add up the result).

The little circular interface was cool. That was what I was referring to with automating certain parts of the game. You can still be free to make up rules when you need to, but have a button you can click that automatically does the rules for grappling for you, for example. I think the best games to take advantage of that will be ones with rules systems whose inner workings are just complex enough for the lawyers to enjoy messing with, but simple enough looking from the outside that a younger player can just dive in without having to understand all of the elements of how it works.

Chibibar;348545][QUOTE=Dave said:

holodeck

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^^-- this

With the rise of technology, it is only time when something like this will happen. A GM can "code" all the event into a system where players can play them out in real time. I would so love a Holodeck.[/QUOTE]

You wouldn't be able to get me to even put one foot in those deathtraps.

Covar;348738][QUOTE=Chibibar;348545][QUOTE=Dave said:

holodeck

Click to expand...

^^-- this

With the rise of technology, it is only time when something like this will happen. A GM can "code" all the event into a system where players can play them out in real time. I would so love a Holodeck.[/QUOTE]

You wouldn't be able to get me to even put one foot in those deathtraps.[/QUOTE]

heh. I don't think we will have Star Trek level Holodeck within our lifetime (I could totally be wrong) but at least VR level where you wear goggles or a suit (kinda like Lawnmower man but without chemicals and brain interference)

Covar;348738][QUOTE=Chibibar;348545][QUOTE=Dave said:

holodeck

Click to expand...

^^-- this

With the rise of technology, it is only time when something like this will happen. A GM can "code" all the event into a system where players can play them out in real time. I would so love a Holodeck.[/QUOTE]

You wouldn't be able to get me to even put one foot in those deathtraps.[/QUOTE]

But you can just turn on the safeties and be fi.... wait a smart AI turned OFF the safeties? Well shit.

God roll on table top RPGing becoming more accepted in the mainstream, I have had cock all luck getting anything but strange looks when I bring up the situation, now I've moved to a new city

Raemon777 said:

Imagining playing in a holodeck feels kind like cheating. I mean, by the time the average person can do that, the human race wil have basically won at awesomeness.

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Once holodecks are invented the human race is screwed, we'll waste away within a generation of constant simulated boning.

Which raises the question, in Trek, who's responsible for hosing down the holodecks? I mean, all the "holo-matter" will dissappear when the program ends, what happens to the "deposits" made by crew enjoying a little R&R?

coolbeans said:

God roll on table top RPGing becoming more accepted in the mainstream, I have had cock all luck getting anything but strange looks when I bring up the situation, now I've moved to a new city

Raemon777 said:

Imagining playing in a holodeck feels kind like cheating. I mean, by the time the average person can do that, the human race wil have basically won at awesomeness.

Click to expand...

Once holodecks are invented the human race is screwed, we'll waste away within a generation of constant simulated boning.

Which raises the question, in Trek, who's responsible for hosing down the holodecks? I mean, all the "holo-matter" will dissappear when the program ends, what happens to the "deposits" made by crew enjoying a little R&R?

Click to expand...

Considering the holodeck can make real weapons if the safeties are off, it probably just sterilizes the room with a low intensity phaser beam when no one is in it.

The transporter deconstructs any soiling of the holodeck...

... and then feeds it through the replicators.

figmentPez said:

The transporter deconstructs any soiling of the holodeck...

... and then feeds it through the replicators.

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What did you think they did with your solid and liquid waste when you were done with it? Keep it in a tank and jettison it into space? You'd be wasting precious resources by not breaking it down into it's composite elements and reusing them.