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Superman vs Batman, and why it doesn't matter who wins

Jul 24, 2013#1

Ravenpoe

So, Zach Snyder's doing a Superman/Batman movie. We all know this means Superman and Batman are going to fight. It's a trope of every superhero team-up story, and more importantly people -want- to see their heroes fight. The nerd debate of who wins between the two has gone on forever, with people joining on the sides of their favorite hero and vehemently debating every possible scenario. If I weren't such a nerd myself, I could look upon this classic ritual with disdain from atop my high horse. But I am one, and I enjoy it just as much as anyone else.

Here's the truth though. They both win.

I'm not going to cite specific issues or storylines because I'm lazy. Every time Batman and Superman have fought in the comics, it plays out the same way, because there really is only one way it can. Batman wins, because he's the underdog and more popular, by pulling out a kryptonite ring, or having Green Arrow shoot superman with kryptonite, or just using his superior tactics and willingness to fight underhanded to gain an advantage, knowing that Clark is a good person and won't just fly the both of them into orbit. Batman uses Superman's good nature against him, because he is the Dark Knight.

But the truth is they both win, because they both express their core ideas in the confrontation. Batman is interesting to people because he is quote "dark." Superman, at his core, is a good person trying to find his way in the world. Batman at his core is a troubled person lashing out in anger, and trying to be good despite darker nature. In this confrontation, Batman shows that he is willing to punch Clark in the face with a kryptonite ring. But at the same time, Clark shows that he is willing to be punched, because he has the power to stop the fight at any time. Superman gets beaten because he can take it, and because he feels it would be irresponsible to take advantage of Batman being only human.

If Batman is a sword, then Superman is a shield, and in colliding they both portray their purpose.

Jul 24, 2013#2

sixpackshaker

In Metropolis Supes wins. Because there is no match between the two. Clark can kill Bruce with a sneeze.

In Gotham... Batman has time to plan and cheat, so he'll win.

But in the end they both "normally" pull their punches. Or in Supes's case, rolls with the punches. Even in the darkest version of their confrontation, Batman had Superman down for the count. But he 'dies' before delivering the coup de grace.

Jul 24, 2013#3

Gilgamesh

sixpackshaker said:
In Gotham... Batman has time to plan and cheat, so he'll win.

As Ravenpoe said, even in that situation, Batman would only win because of Superman's willingness to let him. Every single time Batman has -won- has been because of this. Supes has the capacity to move faster than anything Batman could ever think up. It just doesn't make for good reading.

Jul 24, 2013#4

Ravenpoe

sixpackshaker said:
Even in the darkest version of their confrontation, Batman had Superman down for the count. But he 'dies' before delivering the coup de grace.

He was never there to kill, he was trying to make a point. And even though that story deviates significantly from the canon concepts of the characters, my point still applies. Superman was down because he didn't want to hurt Bruce.

Also, Frank Miller's a hack.

Also, Batman knew that the only way to 'win' was to die before Superman could retaliate, as he really had no chance of putting him down for good.

Jul 24, 2013#5

Gusto

Yeah I find it annoying when some diehard Supes-haters can't accept that Superman, from orbit, could laser Bruce into a puddle.

Jul 24, 2013#6

AshburnerX

Any time Batman and Superman fight, its about ideology and not who is "stronger". It's fundamentally about optimism, almost to the point of blindness (Superman) and cynicism, almost to the point hopelessness (Bats). Anytime they fight, it's about making the other see everything that is wrong with what they are doing, not about "winning".

Supes can wipe the floor with Batman any time he wants, not just because of his powers, but because of his ceaseless hope and compassion. He will never kill Batman because Supes wants to remind him that for all the darkness there is in the world, there are people and forces in the world that can and do make it a better place and that Batman himself is one of the greatest (if not the greatest!). Bruce needs this sometimes because he has isolated himself from the world in trying to save it.

Batman is the reverse... he can't "beat" Superman and really, he doesn't want to. Why would he? Batman knows that Superman is basically a benevolent god trying to making the world whole. But do you know what Batman can do? He can make him hurt. Alone amongst the heroes, Batman can bring Superman to his knees and make him know just how close the world is to collapsing. Just how close it is to becoming something not worth saving. Clark needs this because he sometimes loses track of what is worth fighting for and how desperately some have to fight for it.

Jul 24, 2013#7

Espy

I don't think you are going to see them "fight" in the next movie, obviously Superman would pound the snot out of Batman. I think you WILL see Bruce/Batman systematically destroy Superman but then see the error of his ways.

THEN THEY WILL KISS. :awesome:

Jul 24, 2013#8

Ravenpoe

Espy said:
I don't think you are going to see them "fight" in the next movie, obviously Superman would pound the snot out of Batman. I think you WILL see Bruce/Batman systematically destroy Superman but then see the error of his ways.

THEN THEY WILL KISS.

You know, they didn't introduce kryptonite in the Man of Steel. Assuming they want to stay away from this, I predict Batman getting his hands on "kryptonian technology" to batter supes with.

Jul 24, 2013#9

Anonymous

Ravenpoe said:
express their core ideas in the confrontation.

See also: manga/anime

Jul 24, 2013#10

ThatNickGuy

It doesn't matter who wins because whoever is writing the story can come up with whatever the hell they want. That's the beauty of fiction, especially in a world where almost anything can happen.

Hell, if I want, I can have the fight end because Ambush Bug shows up and beats the crap out of both of them. Because FICTION.

Jul 24, 2013#11

Gusto

I really hope they aren't confrontational at all. Assuming we're not getting an origin story (which oh damn we probably are, ignore the rest of this post), Supes and Bats are buddies. They've got no real reason to square off (although oh damn, Zack Snyder loves shitty fanservice, ignore my entire post).

Jul 24, 2013#12

ThatNickGuy

Eh, it'll probably be the typical superhero trope: distrust and fight at the beginning, make up (AND KISS!), then team-up to fight the bigger threat of your choosing: Luthor, Metallo, Titano, Mr. Mxyzptlk, etc.[DOUBLEPOST=1374699869][/DOUBLEPOST]

AshburnerX said:
Batman can bring Superman to his knees

Jul 24, 2013#13

Ravenpoe

ThatNickGuy said:
Eh, it'll probably be the typical superhero trope: distrust and fight at the beginning, make up (AND KISS!), then team-up to fight the bigger threat of your choosing: Luthor, Metallo, Titano, Mr. Mxyzptlk, etc.[DOUBLEPOST=1374699869][/DOUBLEPOST]

Queue the slow-motion grinding!

Jul 24, 2013#14

Bowielee

If we're looking from cannon, you only have to go to Maxwell Lord mind controlling Superman and absolutely destroying Batman. Regardless of how people feel, Batman only ever wins when Superman lets him win. Without his sense of fair play, Bruce doesn't have a chance in hell.

Jul 24, 2013#15

figmentPez

Gusto said:
Yeah I find it annoying when some diehard Supes-haters can't accept that Superman, from orbit, could laser Bruce into a puddle.

While I agree with you on some levels, on others there has to be some amount of fudging to allow for the ridiculous variations in power levels in the DC universe.* I mean, if Solomon Grundy is powerful enough to send Wonder Woman flying with a punch (and I chose her because of the whole "Superman is weak to magic" issue), then there's no way that Batman doesn't get turned into chunky salsa the first time one of Grundy's hits connects. Heck, if Grundy can squeeze Wonder Woman hard enough to cause damage, then he'd liquify any portion of a normal human's body he could get his hands around.

There really aren't many heroes who are even close to on par with Superman.
- In theory the Flash surpasses him, depending on how his powers are being written, but he holds back to remain human.
- A Green Lantern with enough willpower should be able to take on Supeman, but it probably won't happen because "the most powerful weapon in the universe" is somehow significantly less powerful than quite a few beings within that universe... yeah.
- Wonder Woman can fight Superman to a standstill when they're both unarmed, so I imagine she could take him down if she were willing to draw blood with her magic sword.
- Captain Marvel

*Which is why part of me says Batman must actually have some sort of meta-human ability to have survived what he has, and have done what he's done.

Jul 24, 2013#16

T

TheGuy

figmentPez said:
While I agree with you on some levels, on others there has to be some amount of fudging to allow for the ridiculous variations in power levels in the DC universe.* I mean, if Solomon Grundy is powerful enough to send Wonder Woman flying with a punch (and I chose her because of the whole "Superman is weak to magic" issue), then there's no way that Batman doesn't get turned into chunky salsa the first time one of Grundy's hits connects. Heck, if Grundy can squeeze Wonder Woman hard enough to cause damage, then he'd liquify any portion of a normal human's body he could get his hands around.

There really aren't many heroes who are even close to on par with Superman.
- In theory the Flash surpasses him, depending on how his powers are being written, but he holds back to remain human.
- A Green Lantern with enough willpower should be able to take on Supeman, but it probably won't happen because "the most powerful weapon in the universe" is somehow significantly less powerful than quite a few beings within that universe... yeah.
- Wonder Woman can fight Superman to a standstill when they're both unarmed, so I imagine she could take him down if she were willing to draw blood with her magic sword.
- Captain Marvel

*Which is why part of me says Batman must actually have some sort of meta-human ability to have survived what he has, and have done what he's done.

If you put it into RPG Terms, the best way of describing that "ability" would be that Batman has a limit to how much damage he can take in a single attack. As in, even a hit for 9999999999999 damage on Batman still gets nullified to a maximum of 10% of his health. It's probably the only way of reconciling how Batman gets evenly beaten up by villains in the entire power spectrum (street level to cosmic level).

Jul 24, 2013#17

AshburnerX

Its entirely possible that is an effect of his body armor. His stuff is supposed to be at least 20-30 years ahead of anything on Earth.

Jul 24, 2013#18

Bubble181

ThatNickGuy said:
It doesn't matter who wins because whoever is writing the story can come up with whatever the hell they want. That's the beauty of fiction, especially in a world where almost anything can happen.

Hell, if I want, I can have the fight end because ~~Ambush Bug~~ Dill the Detective shows up and beats the crap out of both of them. Because FICTION.

Jul 24, 2013#19

bhamv3

If I recall correctly, Superman also hugely trusts Batman's judgement. Kryptonite ring and all that. So if they're ever in a fight, Superman's probably thinking, "Okay, this guy, who's wicked smart, thinks what I'm doing is bad enough that he's attacking me to stop me. I should probably step back and think it over a bit. Oh all right, I'll let him punch me a few times too."

Jul 24, 2013#20

Bowielee

figmentPez said:
- In theory the Flash surpasses him, depending on how his powers are being written, but he holds back to remain human.
.

It is conceivable that Flash could beat Superman. The Flash can run faster than the speed of light, so he could even outrun Superman's heat vision. All he would need is some kryptonite and get it close enough to Superman for it to take effect. The only advantage Superman would have would be his strength and his ability to fly.

Jul 24, 2013#21

Gilgamesh

Bowielee said:
It is conceivable that Flash could beat Superman. The Flash can run faster than the speed of light, so he could even outrun Superman's heat vision. All he would need is some kryptonite and get it close enough to Superman for it to take effect. The only advantage Superman would have would be his strength and his ability to fly.

Well unless Supes does a blanket cold breath in the area, or raises a tornado with super breath, or moves the fight indoors or etc etc etc

Jul 24, 2013#22

figmentPez

Bowielee said:
It is conceivable that Flash could beat Superman. The Flash can run faster than the speed of light, so he could even outrun Superman's heat vision. All he would need is some kryptonite and get it close enough to Superman for it to take effect. The only advantage Superman would have would be his strength and his ability to fly.

And, depending on how the Flash's powers are being written, Superman wouldn't even have those as advantages. At various points it's been suggested that complete control of the Speed Force also grants complete control over kinetic energy. Most speedsters just use that to, somewhat unconsciously, speed their own movement, generate a protective field, minimize sonic booms, etc. In one comic I read, a villain named Savatar redirected projectiles aimed him without even touching them, and I think he flew as well, though I'd have to dig out that issue. In any case, the Speed Force, fully unleashed, has been called the most powerful force in the DC universe by some writers.

Jul 24, 2013#23

Bowielee

I'm pretty sure some speedsters have also used the speed force to sap kinetic energy from their opponents, effectively slowing them down.[DOUBLEPOST=1374725472][/DOUBLEPOST]

Gilgamesh said:
Well unless Supes does a blanket cold breath in the area, or raises a tornado with super breath, or moves the fight indoors or etc etc etc

The Flash could outrun all of that. Unless Superman moves the fight to a closet, the Flash's speed will still give him an advantage. Superman is no where near as fast as Flash is. If he can outrun light, I'm pretty sure he can outrun a high wind.

Jul 25, 2013#24

AshburnerX

cold Breath - The Flash vibrates out of the ice or heats it up with the friction of the vibration.
Tornado - This would be child's play for the flash, who can ether counter the tornado or simply move to another area.
In doors - Flash can vibrate through walls and that's assuming he doesn't just utterly destroy them with kinectic force.
And that's assuming he doesn't just outrun it all.

Basically, unless Superman destroys the planet he's on, the Flash has the ability to beat him. He just wouldn't survive it because he'd have to unleash his full abilities and that would undoubtedly make him one with the Speed Force again.

Jul 25, 2013#25

DarkAudit

ThatNickGuy said:
It doesn't matter who wins because whoever is writing the story can come up with whatever the hell they want. That's the beauty of fiction, especially in a world where almost anything can happen.

Hell, if I want, I can have the fight end because Ambush Bug shows up and beats the crap out of both of them. Because FICTION.

I would buy the fuck out of that.

Jul 25, 2013#26

Bowielee

AshburnerX said:
cold Breath - The Flash vibrates out of the ice or heats it up with the friction of the vibration.
Tornado - This would be child's play for the flash, who can ether counter the tornado or simply move to another area.
In doors - Flash can vibrate through walls and that's assuming he doesn't just utterly destroy them with kinectic force.
And that's assuming he doesn't just outrun it all.

Basically, unless Superman destroys the planet he's on, the Flash has the ability to beat him. He just wouldn't survive it because he'd have to unleash his full abilities and that would undoubtedly make him one with the Speed Force again.

JLU cartoon aside, it is entirely possible to come back from the speed force. All flashes have done it at least once, some multiple times.

Jul 25, 2013#27

ScytheRexx

I don't think they really need to have an "Avengers"-style fight with punches and kicks.

Personally I liked how they handled the first meeting between the two in the animated series crossover. The two meet for the first time, and Superman, not really trusting Batman, uses his xray vision to see past his mask, revealing Batman as Bruce Wayne. Bruce realizes what he is doing and comments about him "peeking". Just a little bit later, if I remember correctly, Superman flies back to his apartment and gets in his Clark Kent clothes, only to notice somehow Batman had secretly put a tracker on his hero outfit. He looks out the window and sees Batman spying on him from a nearby rooftop.

It was more of a battle of wits more then a battle of fists, Superman flaunting his powers by just bypassing Batman's mask, and Batman flaunting his skill by using his knowledge and tech to figure out Superman's identity in turn. If they do anything, I hope they do that.

Jul 25, 2013#28

Ravenpoe

How does everyone around Superman not have cancer from all the x-rays he douses everyone in to satisfy his curiosity?

Jul 25, 2013#29

Bowielee

While that's funny, I believe it's called X-ray vision because it acts like an x-ray machine, not that it actually incorporates x-rays themselves.

Though, he is solar powered and gets his powers from solar radiation, so it may well be that he's constantly giving off low levels of radiations just by standing next to you.

Jul 25, 2013#30

ThatNickGuy

Ravenpoe said:
How does everyone around Superman not have cancer from all the x-rays he douses everyone in to satisfy his curiosity?

Because COMICS.

Jul 25, 2013#31

Ravenpoe

Bowielee said:
While that's funny, I believe it's called X-ray vision because it acts like an x-ray machine, not that it actually incorporates x-rays themselves.

I know that, but stop ruining my jokes.

Jul 25, 2013#32

Bowielee

So, Kryptonians are able to get all the sustenance they need from the sun alone. So... are they plants?

Jul 25, 2013#33

ScytheRexx

Bowielee said:
So, Kryptonians are able to get all the sustenance they need from the sun alone. So... are they plants?

Don't give DC any ideas.

Jul 25, 2013#34

SpecialKO

Ravenpoe said:
they both express their core ideas in the confrontation.

Superman VS Batman: High School Debate Team

I would watch the shit out of that.

Jul 25, 2013#35

Bubble181

Pfft, faster than light. Superman flew faster than time that one time... :troll:

Jul 25, 2013#36

Bowielee

Bubble181 said:
Pfft, faster than light. Superman flew faster than time that one time...

So has the Flash

Jul 28, 2013#37

Hailey Knight

ScytheRexx said:
I don't think they really need to have an "Avengers"-style fight with punches and kicks.

Personally I liked how they handled the first meeting between the two in the animated series crossover. The two meet for the first time, and Superman, not really trusting Batman, uses his xray vision to see past his mask, revealing Batman as Bruce Wayne. Bruce realizes what he is doing and comments about him "peeking". Just a little bit later, if I remember correctly, Superman flies back to his apartment and gets in his Clark Kent clothes, only to notice somehow Batman had secretly put a tracker on his hero outfit. He looks out the window and sees Batman spying on him from a nearby rooftop.

It was more of a battle of wits more then a battle of fists, Superman flaunting his powers by just bypassing Batman's mask, and Batman flaunting his skill by using his knowledge and tech to figure out Superman's identity in turn. If they do anything, I hope they do that.

You remember correctly.

I thought it was a pretty good crossover; Joker was a fiend with that Kryptonite, and I thought it was funny how poorly Lex Luthor thought out making a partnership with Joker.

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