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Temporary Foreign Worker Program
#1
Eriol
Eriol
So there's this thing in Canada called the Temporary Foreign Worker Program. It's gotten a lot of press lately: here, here, here. Basically, under certain conditions where the business claims that they can't find anybody to fill a position, they can bring in people "temporarily" to fill the position, as long as there's nobody in Canada who wants it. Makes some sense if there's a scarcity of skilled labour in some places, or some other specialized circumstances.
It's being used to fill jobs at Subway, McDonalds, etc. And there's been an uproar lately, so the federal minister responsible has suspended the program for the restaurant business, pending a review, which could take any amount of time.
Here's the article that says pretty much what I think about it: Foreign workers skew the market - Supply and demand: Where have all the true capitalists gone?
Excerpt: (emphasis mine)
The point is that people are using this to fill unskilled labour jobs. Which perverts the whole idea of supply and demand. As long as you don't have full employment (nowhere does), if you advertise $30/hour to flip burgers, you WILL have more applicants than you need. The only reason they can't get people is they're not willing to pay more for what they want. As the article said, supply and demand works for labour markets as well. If there's a shortage, you pay more. But this program is being used for effectively infinite supply. Which means depressed wages.
Not good.
And this isn't all. It gets worse. People in these jobs are often "asked" to work longer hours (aka unpaid overtime) because if they get fired, they get shipped home. Or anything else really, since again, they are hired at the whim of the owner. So it's slave-labour-esque. So it's effectively bad for them too. The only reason they do it at all (beyond the crap wages being way better than where they originally lived) is that after a certain number of hours worked, they can apply to be permanent residents ("really" immigrated). I have no problem with that part, but obviously there are a few problems before that. Again, from the same article:
It's the unskilled part that's the real horror here. You can ALWAYS find somebody if you're willing to pay enough. People will leave SKILLED jobs if you're willing to pay enough. If you aren't, then you're trying to distort the labour market.
So ya, this is rant-ish, but it's a current event in Canada. And there's enough here for people in other countries to relate to as well.
It's being used to fill jobs at Subway, McDonalds, etc. And there's been an uproar lately, so the federal minister responsible has suspended the program for the restaurant business, pending a review, which could take any amount of time.
Here's the article that says pretty much what I think about it: Foreign workers skew the market - Supply and demand: Where have all the true capitalists gone?
Excerpt: (emphasis mine)
In a free market, scarcity drives price. If you can’t get something you want, you pay what the market dictates in order to get it.
This principle should apply to domestic labour markets as much as it does to supply and demand for gasoline.
If the fast-food business is accurate in its claim there’s a scarcity of labour to fill their unskilled minimum wage jobs, wages should rise until those jobs become attractive enough to bring in Canadian workers who can fill them.
Instead, these employers import minimum-wage employees from foreign labour pools where even the worst wage and working conditions in Canada look attractive. This enables business to artificially depress wages here.
The point is that people are using this to fill unskilled labour jobs. Which perverts the whole idea of supply and demand. As long as you don't have full employment (nowhere does), if you advertise $30/hour to flip burgers, you WILL have more applicants than you need. The only reason they can't get people is they're not willing to pay more for what they want. As the article said, supply and demand works for labour markets as well. If there's a shortage, you pay more. But this program is being used for effectively infinite supply. Which means depressed wages.
Not good.
And this isn't all. It gets worse. People in these jobs are often "asked" to work longer hours (aka unpaid overtime) because if they get fired, they get shipped home. Or anything else really, since again, they are hired at the whim of the owner. So it's slave-labour-esque. So it's effectively bad for them too. The only reason they do it at all (beyond the crap wages being way better than where they originally lived) is that after a certain number of hours worked, they can apply to be permanent residents ("really" immigrated). I have no problem with that part, but obviously there are a few problems before that. Again, from the same article:
I'm glad this program is getting a review. We should be bringing in X amount of people per year (according to wiki, 280,000 in 2010, which may be fine), giving them permanent resident status so that abuse by employers is difficult, and we should have an honest debate as to how many that should be and why. Come because some element of skilled labour needs people and actually can't find anybody? That would be indicated because wages are skyrocketing in that particular industry. Then bring some in. Industry "claims" they need people because they can't find Canadians for unskilled labour? Let the wages show the real story (this is related to how there's not actually a STEM shortage in Canada or the USA, but that's another story).If Canada truly needs these workers, grant them landed immigrant status with the same rights, benefits and freedoms to sell their labour to the highest bidder that the rest of us supposedly enjoy in our supposedly free marketplace.
It's the unskilled part that's the real horror here. You can ALWAYS find somebody if you're willing to pay enough. People will leave SKILLED jobs if you're willing to pay enough. If you aren't, then you're trying to distort the labour market.
So ya, this is rant-ish, but it's a current event in Canada. And there's enough here for people in other countries to relate to as well.
#2
PatrThom
PatrThom
This is a new thing for you? Seems like it's been going on in the USA at least since the mid to late 70's. Migrant work, day labor, flat out undocumented immigrants. And that's not counting what we've done in China over that same time period.
--Patrick
--Patrick
#3
Eriol
So both issues, but not the same one from what little you're describing.
Eriol
This is fully documented, legal, in the country. The only part that seems "illegal" is the loosening of the "we can't find a Canadian to do it" part to the point of they barely need to try and prove it. Has little to do with day labour, as they need a permanent employer.This is a new thing for you? Seems like it's been going on in the USA at least since the mid to late 70's. Migrant work, day labor, flat out undocumented immigrants. And that's not counting what we've done in China over that same time period.
So both issues, but not the same one from what little you're describing.
#4
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
Ironically, this is almost better than the current situation here in America because at least these people can become Canadian Citizens if they stay out of trouble. Half the problem with illegal immigration in this country is that they don't pay full taxes but use substantially more public services. It's a net drain... but if we could make some of them citizens, we could tax them fully and recoup some of that cost.
#5
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Actually, even illegal immigrants are supposed to pay their taxes properly. We DO tax them fully; they just don't pay it, and often claim dependents that live in other countries. It comes up in court cases and they do get in trouble for it. People who would otherwise have been given relief have been deported on moral grounds because of cheating their taxes or not paying them. They get caught, eventually--the IRS is a slow but tenacious beast--but it makes no difference if they don't have the money. You can tax someone all you want, but if they're broke, they're broke, citizen or not.Ironically, this is almost better than the current situation here in America because at least these people can become Canadian Citizens if they stay out of trouble. Half the problem with illegal immigration in this country is that they don't pay full taxes but use substantially more public services. It's a net drain... but if we could make some of them citizens, we could tax them fully and recoup some of that cost.
#6
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
Hey, even drug dealers are supposed to pay taxes.Actually, even illegal immigrants are supposed to pay their taxes properly.
--Patrick
#7
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Oh right, derp. I totally forgot the best example, Al Capone.
#8
Eriol
Eriol
Restaurant complaining that they advertised widely (in newspapers, which is a WTF right there) and got no applicants: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfo...nalized-by-foreign-worker-plan-woes-1.2625402
Guess what: TRY PAYING MORE!!! You WILL get applicants then.
Guess what: TRY PAYING MORE!!! You WILL get applicants then.
#9
Frank
Frank
While the restaurants are a problem, they have nothing on this nonsense:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...rker-reports-death-threats-coercion-1.2630278
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...rker-reports-death-threats-coercion-1.2630278
#10
Eriol
Eriol
Good illustration of the second half of my original post about the abuses. It is just bad for everybody except the owners (double entendre intended).While the restaurants are a problem, they have nothing on this nonsense:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...rker-reports-death-threats-coercion-1.2630278