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Dammit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110302/ap_on_re_us/us_supreme_court_funeral_protests#mwpphu-container

Westboro Baptist Church wins its case before the Supreme Court.

I hate to say it, but thank goodness.

If a family of loons half a mile away can force this nation to abrogate possibly the most important Amendment of our Constitution, then it really is over.

I know, I just find that group reprehensible.

I keep telling myself, mantra-like, that their comeuppance will come and the best way to avoid attention-whores is to not give them any attention.

Unfortunately, this is a rough as hell thing to ask of those military families who lost loved ones.

Ah, well, it's good I suppose. Aren't there a lot of tornadoes in Kansas? How do they keep NOT destroying WBC HQ?

Cajungal said:

Ah, well, it's good I suppose. Aren't there a lot of tornadoes in Kansas? How do they keep NOT destroying WBC HQ?

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God doesn't want 'em. Devil probably doesn't, either.

Interesting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6507971.stm

I wonder if they actually tested the gay person coming to their church thing...

Of course not, he was media.

They will even - so I'm given to understand and I have no reason to doubt it - work alongside gay people very happily in the work place. If a gay person goes along to talk to them outside the church or if a gay person even turned up to the church to attend a service, they wouldn't humiliate them or be rude to them; they'd shake their hand and welcome them in.

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So basically, they're what we've known all along. Hipocrites that are doing the "religion" for the money.

My first amendment prof was pretty mesmerized by the opinion, not the result, but the actual opinion. Sometimes The Court cracks me up.

But don't we have protection again liable? or psychological damage?

Chibibar said:

But don't we have protection again liable? or psychological damage?

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The protesters followed the law. The father never saw them in person. It was pretty much a bad suit.

sixpackshaker said:

The protesters followed the law. The father never saw them in person. It was pretty much a bad suit.

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but didn't they continue to harass him via the internet (I thought I read that one after the funeral)
I am glad/sad that we are protected to be asses in public as long we follow the law, but we can hope when WBC gets violent, then they could be categorize as psychological terrorist?

Chibibar said:

but didn't they continue to harass him via the internet (I thought I read that one after the funeral)
I am glad/sad that we are protected to be asses in public as long we follow the law, but we can hope when WBC gets violent, then they could be categorize as psychological terrorist?

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Then they can try to sue for that. Suing them for the protest doesn't fly.

Tress said:

This is how I know the court got it right.

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You can't make it clearer than that.

Tress said:

This is how I know the court got it right.

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Oy...

but we can’t invoke God’s name in public square

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Since when? Apparently these people can:

The group’s members believe that the deaths are a punishment from God’s wrath, and carry offensive signs that read, “Thank God for dead soldiers” and “God Hates the U.S.A.”

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escushion said:

Oy...



Since when? Apparently these people can:

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Don't you know? Everything that ever happens is always about her.

The gay thing isn't quite what people think it is. They don't HATE gays. They believe that god hates people who have "chosen" to be gay. They believe that being gay is a choice, and since the bible says a man laying with another man is an abomination, if they can get gay people into church they can "straighten" them out.

wikked said:

The gay thing isn't quite what people think it is. They don't HATE gays. They believe that god hates people who have "chosen" to be gay. They believe that being gay is a choice, and since the bible says a man laying with another man is an abomination, if they can get gay people into church they can "straighten" them out.

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I like the way you split hairs.

Of course in the same passage, God says Shell-fish are an abomination. So, God Hates Shrimp.

But because Paul wanted to convert the Anatolians, Romans and Greeks, he said it was OK to eat the abominations. So what if Paul wanted to convert everybody?

I've done everything the Bible says; even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!

sixpackshaker said:

But because Paul wanted to convert the Anatolians, Romans and Greeks, he said it was OK to eat the abominations.

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Not that I want to get into a big theological and biblical understanding discussion but for the record, no, thats not how it worked. That being said, I suppose if you take it out of context it could look that way but that conclusion leaves out all context to the discussion of the place of the jewish law in relationship to Christ and the rather new idea of following Christ and what that actually meant.

Just keep a copy of this in your pocket to use whenever anyone quotes scripture

[quote = West Wing]

Bartlet: I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
President Josiah Bartlet: Yes it does. Leviticus.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
President Josiah Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.[/quote]

I'd REALLY love to hear a religious zealot answer those questions.

Necronic said:

Just keep a copy of this in your pocket to use whenever anyone quotes scripture

[quote = West Wing]

Bartlet: I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
President Josiah Bartlet: Yes it does. Leviticus.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
President Josiah Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.

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[/quote]
Oooo I like that.

I love the quote from the west wing because it shows that most people who just cherry pick scripture don't understand that context and historical understanding are imperative. Otherwise you are just an asshole with an opinion. And everyone has both.

Tell me the contexts. I'm interested. I won't even be snarky since I have no stake in religion either way.

The context to what? The Bartlet quote?

Uh, yeah?
I would argue that just about everyone cherry picks when it comes to religion and politics.

Sorry, I guess my post wasn't clear: Bartlet gives the guy some context. Bartlet is the one showing him that he's cherry picking stuff without bothering to understand it. I mean, of course, it's oversimplified and probably intended to mock those who believe in the authority of scripture, but still it works. If you really want context for something like the laws and customs described in the Torah, and I say this with no sarcasm or snark, take a class on it (they usually have some free classes at Synagog's that are really informative if slightly less scholarly since they are for laymen). It's a HUGE topic that I could never hope to cover in a forum post, but it's fascinating stuff to learn about especially when you dig into what life was like back then.

Ah, ok. I see we are basically on the same page on the issue. It's a shame that people use things like religion to put others down or to feel superior. I much prefer religion as a way to bring people together

Espy said:

Sorry, I guess my post wasn't clear: Bartlet gives the guy some context. Bartlet is the one showing him that he's cherry picking stuff without bothering to understand it. I mean, of course, it's oversimplified and probably intended to mock those who believe in the authority of scripture, but still it works. If you really want context for something like the laws and customs described in the Torah, and I say this with no sarcasm or snark, take a class on it (they usually have some free classes at Synagog's that are really informative if slightly less scholarly since they are for laymen). It's a HUGE topic that I could never hope to cover in a forum post, but it's fascinating stuff to learn about especially when you dig into what life was like back then.

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As I remember, the episode's context is like this: Bartlet is having a very frustrating day dealing with various crises. At the end of the day, he goes to a radio broadcasters meeting in the West Wing. One woman, an uber conservative radio host, refuses to stand up when everyone else does in the room because she won't even show him the most basic respect. So, he goes off on her in the above quote.

I don't think she was meant as a strawman for the religious, but rather a stand-in for both hardcore conservative media pundits AND zealous homophobes who cite religious doctrine. I think the focus is really more about people who twist things like scripture to justify their personal prejudice.

I don't know what's so wrong with living life without an organized religion. I mean, just be a good person, do you really need "guidance" to do that? Why do so many feel like it's their job to force a specfic ruleset on you based on very out dated texts?

We need something like "All-Star Religion". Let's drop all those centuries of retcons and start with something more modern day that people can really relate to!

Krisken said:

I would argue that just about everyone cherry picks when it comes to religion and politics.

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Kind... of? I'm not sure how to answer that. If you are saying that people who study scripture and do textual criticism or scholarly commentary/work then I would have to say thats absolutely not true. It doesn't mean that there isn't influence from their own ideas and theology in there at some level but that goes for anything that is studied in depth and is the furthest thing from "cherry picking".
Now if you are talking about politicians/evangelicals using random verses to justify something? Of course.

The second. Most people don't hear from the first group.

Krisken said:

The second. Most people don't hear from the first group.

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Oh yeah, you are totally right, it's actually a real problem especially in the Christian Evangelical community. People aren't interested in LEARNING about their faith and scripture, they just want things told to them that make them feel good, like a bad self-help book.

Jiarn said:

I don't know what's so wrong with living life without an organized religion. I mean, just be a good person, do you really need "guidance" to do that? Why do so many feel like it's their job to force a specfic ruleset on you based on very out dated texts?

We need something like "All-Star Religion". Let's drop all those centuries of retcons and start with something more modern day that people can really relate to!

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Problem is that not everyone can think like that. I mean some people cannot accept the hand they are dealt with (i.e. hard life etc etc) without knowing that they will be rewarded in heaven. It is kinda like justify their existence. Now some people can just live a life and enjoy it, but other wanted more and can't get it (due to whatever reasons or limitation) and thus organize religion is formed. (my personal observation)

@ Espy

Yeah, ask the average Evangelical to tell you the difference between the Esseenes, Pharisees and Saducees. Or get into a conversation about whether the Nephilim were actual physical giants or are they references to the old greek heros. Or about how the names of certain things in Genesis (like the ocean I think) were existing gods, but were used in such a way to imply the the Hebrew God had dominated or de-animated them. Or, my favorite, talk about what the Septuagint is and how it relates to question about the translations in the King James bible, and more interestingly, how it relates to the Quran and the laws about translating it.

See, this is why I always hated that George Carlin bit about "can god make a boulder so big he couldn't lift it" thing. That's simply stupid. Religion is an *incredibly* interesting subject. Part of the problem is that a lot of biblical studies in the evangelical community ignore the old testament. Which is really interesting since the evangelical community is heavily Pentacostal who reject cessationism meaning that they follow old testament beliefs about speaking in toungues and the like. And of course there is cherry picking justifications for hate out of the old testament.

Which....is hard not to see as a bit retarded.

Chibibar said:

Problem is that not everyone can think like that. I mean some people cannot accept the hand they are dealt with (i.e. hard life etc etc) without knowing that they will be rewarded in heaven. It is kinda like justify their existence. Now some people can just live a life and enjoy it, but other wanted more and can't get it (due to whatever reasons or limitation) and thus organize religion is formed. (my personal observation)

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Wow. I'd like to assume you aren't trying to insult religious people, but it sure appears that way.

First Lady Puffinstuff said:

Wow. I'd like to assume you aren't trying to insult religious people, but it sure appears that way.

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Looks like he is simply giving his observation in why religious people are religious. I've never known chibi to intentionally insult someone.

First Lady Puffinstuff said:

Wow. I'd like to assume you aren't trying to insult religious people, but it sure appears that way.

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Thats because you clearly can't think for yourself.

DUH.

@Necronic: May I give you a "preach it brother"? My focus is on OT studies and after 3 years of working on my Masters I'm just scratching the surface here. My stint teaching OT stuff at a local college has only solidified my view that most churches are terrified of the OT and don't have any idea of how to actually talk about it/preach about it. I'd like to help change that a bit. It's not actually as scary as they think, but it does require a pretty good dig into Hebrew culture as so much is lost if you try and apply a modern understanding to it.

Ravenpoe said:

I've never known chibi to intentionally insult someone.

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Nor I, which is why I felt he might appreciate knowing that his post gives that impression.

What's insulting about it? He's giving his personal view on religion. Your view may differ, but I know you capable of dealing with that.

You know Poe, people who grow beards only do it because they are naturally weak chinned people, they use it to cover up their naturally weak chins and dribble stains. The don't know how to just be happy with their chins and so must use their facial hair to make up for what some of us just naturally can do.

Seriously though, it's totally cool for people to have opinions, even if they are negative, but it doesn't mean they can't be offensive. If I didn't know Chibi I would say that his comment was a mildly offensive post. As it stands I doubt he really meant it that way.

Took a number of classes in college on Judaism/Torah/Pentateuch, one of them was a Dead Sea Scrolls class. Now that's some interesting shit. All that said though, I will admit I am not a big fan of organized religion myself as its too easy to control the interpretations.

Take for instance the Islamic view that Allah and the Christian/Jewish God are the same. I buy it. Muhammed gives a constant nod to "the people of the book" and also admits that (while not the messiah) Jesus was a very important prophet (if not the most important). Many terrorist muslims may ignore these passages or focus on the ones where it is considered acceptable to kill "people of the book", which is an interpretation that militant clerics will focus on. As well, most evangelical christians (and possibly most christians period) don't recognize this, many probably would have a scanner moment before they excepted it.

Which, from where I stand, is choosing to ignore a lot of history about the development of the Christian/Jewish God. He didn't just appear from nowhere. Yahweh was a Sumerian diety first. This means that Christians and Jews worshipped the same God as Sumerians. You could argue that since the Sumerians didn't worship Yahweh monotheistically they misunderstood his essence, true, but that same argument could be applied to Islam. They also worship the same God, just with a different interpretation.

And these superficially strong differences in interpretations can cause division between groups that have historically acknowledged their relationship as worshiping the same God, and are maintained by organized religions that focus on building painfully detailed interpretations and sets of rules like Hallawah and Shariah etc. as though they will further cement what is effectively a best guess on an impossible question.

TLDR, I'm a Taoist. Everyone's on a right path but its impossible to get to all the way to the Truth. Christians and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Taoists and Universal Field Theorists are all headed to the same point, but from different directions. When it seemed that they couldn't get closer they set up tents and started laying out fortresses of interpretations and laws and looked at the other guys and said "Hey, that's a crappy place to build an ideology. Bake em away toys".

Having problems putting this into words, but....that's why I am Taoist (who, by the way, can fuck it up with the best of them. All you have to do is look at the retarded pantheon that they came up with to see how organization completely ruined that religion can get. I still don't understand how in the world Taoism can even have a pantheon.)

Necronic said:

these superficially strong differences in interpretations ... cement what is effectively a best guess on an impossible question.

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If only God would have continued to send prophets as He did when the various scriptures were written... (shameless plug)

Dum dum dum dum dum! (is just making a reference, not insulting the religion)

This seemed incredibly timely considering.
Cracked.com... 5 ham fisted religious sites

Espy said:

You know Poe, people who grow beards only do it because they are naturally weak chinned people, they use it to cover up their naturally weak chins and dribble stains. The don't know how to just be happy with their chins and so must use their facial hair to make up for what some of us just naturally can do.

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Well, you know, that's just like... your opinion, man.

@Li3n said:

Interesting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6507971.stm

I wonder if they actually tested the gay person coming to their church thing...

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Part Deux: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12919646

Wait, talking to members of a crazy group actually helping? Nowai.