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A Thread For Bold Claims

Sparhawk said:

The Star Wars Prequels are good movies.

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Wow. They are flat out terrible. And not just in a "they are not the original trilogy way". Just in a "no one involved looks like they could pull off a high school play" way.

A Thread For Bold Claims

I think that people that grew up with the OT were expecting movies that filled in their own expectations of what happened before. The movies are not bad in their own right, but we didn't have any real "investment" into the movies since we KNEW where everything was supposed to end up. There is corny dialog in them, there was in the OT also, there are scenes that should have had a different hand leading them, but I think that every single movie has that problem.

A Thread For Bold Claims

The prequels are absolutely bad in their own right. I have no idea what you're talking about with the "different hand in leading them" stuff.

A Thread For Bold Claims

Fine, YOU don't like them so nobody should. I can enjoy what I want to without repercussions from mr. movie critic.

A Thread For Bold Claims

I never said you shouldn't like them. I am just saying you like three shitty movies.

A Thread For Bold Claims

I dunno spar, they were just poorly done movies that ignore every basic idea of even mediocre storytelling. I've tried but... I cant' find anything redeeming in those cold soulless boring films.
I don't think I've ever actually met anyone who liked them... at least in real life...

A Thread For Bold Claims

Espy said:

I dunno spar, they were just poorly done movies that ignore every basic idea of even mediocre storytelling. I've tried but... I cant' find anything redeeming in those cold soulless boring films.
I don't think I've ever actually met anyone who liked them... at least in real life...

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I enjoyed them for telling a visual story. Do I wish some parts were different, wish that some of the dialog was better, but overall I'm not fixated on the aspect that everyone gets in a bunch about, because, it didn't rape my childhood. I separate the two trilogies. The OT had it's shortfalls also, and had more added in the "special" editions, but it tells a good story. Same with the prequels, if you turn off memory about what is going to happen, they aren't bad. To me, the biggest gripe that people had, outside of Jar Jar, was that it wasn't what they had imagined it would be. People had built up an image in their mind about how this and that were supposed to happen, and then weren't happy when it was revealed that Lucas had a different vision than they did. I would have loved if we had gotten a taste of the Death Star blowing up Naboo, leaving the "forest moon Endor" orbiting alone, but that isn't what was on film.

Overall, for fans of the OT, there was no suspense at all in the Prequels. You knew what the fate of Obi-Wan was the second he was on screen. You knew what was to happen to Anakin before his first word was uttered. Everything had an end already, we were just seeing how it all began. In Harry Potter, if book 7 had come out first, the first 6 books would have been the same way, you knew what was going to happen to everyone, but didn't know all the steps between.

A Thread For Bold Claims

I would have just settled for something that wasn't boring and lifeless, reliant upon decent CGI instead of actual storytelling.

But honestly, I'm glad you liked them, I got no problem agreeing to disagree

A Thread For Bold Claims

Espy said:

I would have just settled for something that wasn't boring and lifeless, reliant upon decent CGI instead of actual storytelling.

But honestly, I'm glad you liked them, I got no problem agreeing to disagree

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Part of what may influence my view about them is the fact that I saw the movies with kids that really hadn't been exposed to the OT. I got to share in their excitement about what was happening on screen, and not dwell on my knowledge of what happened with every one of the characters.

A Thread For Bold Claims

What "happens to the characters in the other films" in now way has anything to do with what makes them horrible films. Again, it's all about storytelling. Or lack thereof in the case of the prequals.

A Thread For Bold Claims

Ep 1-3 were crappier because the people involved were all fat and comfortable by then. Ep 4-6 were awesome because the people involved were all hungry and out to prove something, as well as completely committed to what they were doing. Happens alllll the time.

--Patrick

A Thread For Bold Claims

Honestly, I believe that it does. You take away the suspense of "Is he gonna die?" from scenes in the prequels and you lose lots of storytelling ability. Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul, Obi-Wan vs Grevious, Obi-Wan & Anakin vs Dooku, Yoda vs Palpatine, none of those have any suspense because you know that Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda all survive. From the eyes of a child that hadn't watched the OT, it was a whole different atmosphere. They didn't know who was going to win, they didn't know that Padme` was gonna die at the end (I agree, dieing of a broken heart was stupid, as was the complete collapse of a vibrant character to the shell she was at the end...) and from the view of not knowing what was going to happen it is a much better movie than the fanboy in me wanted.

As much as Star Wars fans wanted more Star Wars, the prequels were the wrong way to go. There was absolutely no suspense of not knowing what was going to happen. Now, bring on 7-9, following Luke, Leia and the gang, or even further in the future of that universe, and you'd have the fanboys all a-twitter again by the end of the trilogy. Not gonna happen, but I can dream...

A Thread For Bold Claims

Sparhawk said:

Now, bring on 7-9, following Luke, Leia and the gang, or even further in the future of that universe, and you'd have the fanboys all a-twitter again by the end of the trilogy. Not gonna happen, but I can dream...

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They'd be all a-twitter if anything Star Wars is announced.

And 7-9 would still be terrible movies if made by the same people who made the prequels. The only criticism you can deflect from the prequels is any whining due to OT viewing is about "what they did to [character], they ruined him". From effects choices, editing, narrative direction, even basic character development, and direction of actors, pretending the OT never existed, 1-3 are terrible movies. They are not well made, well written, or well told.

Suspense is only a piece of storytelling, but only thrillers and horror films can get away with depending on it. Removing the suspense for viewers of the OT should still have left competent films for them to view, even if they weren't on the edge of their seats with character concern. Not to mention, the Clone Wars cartoon was considered great, but it's still in the same timeline as the prequels. No suspense there either.

A Thread For Bold Claims

escushion said:

They are not well made, well written, or well told.

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YES. Somewhere along the line Lucas got mixed up and decided that big effects and blue screen + lots of exposition= story.

He was very wrong.

A Thread For Bold Claims

Also, as far as the acting goes, yeah, the original movies were kinda cheesy, but a lot of the cast hadn't done anything too spectacular before that ... in the prequels, Lucas had a pretty damn fine cast (well, aside from Hayden Christensen maybe, but I haven't really seen him in anything else). But the characters just weren't that well defined, to the point where the actors couldn't do much of anything with those roles. Ewan McGregor? Liam Neeson? Natalie Portman? That's hella talent right there.

Who was it that did that video in which a bunch of people were asked to describe the traits of characters from the original movies and then the prequels? That says a lot about the difference, I think.

Heck, one of the few Star Wars books I read (and the only one I read more than once), namely Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, was tight and well-written enough that despite the fact you knew Darth Maul would have to win out by the book's end and that certain outcomes would occur, it still managed to entertain.

To me, the original Star Wars movies represent cheesiness with heart, while the prequels represent stilted lifeless moviemaking.

A Thread For Bold Claims

Listen.

You can all argue back and forth 'til the end of time about this, but we can all agree on thing: the lightsaber fights in the prequels were awesome. Easily ten times better than the OT.

Everything else pretty much sucked, though...

A Thread For Bold Claims

Because it told a visual story? You just gave the prequels props for BEING A MOVIE. When just the simple fact of BEING A MOTION PICTURE is praiseworthy, you know you have something godawful. "Yes, the movies ruled because there was in fact light and sound." Lucas is a master, I saw and heard things at the same time!

A Thread For Bold Claims

I think that the hurdle of knowing how it ends is overcome with good storytelling and character development. Everyone who has seen the prequels knows the end results, yet the Clone Wars TV show takes place between Ep II & III and is fantastic! Because the characters are developed and interesting.

Ep I-III, ended up being little more than toy commercials.

A Thread For Bold Claims

I could never get into the clone wars cartoons. I can't watch the 2D ones without feeling they are some kind of star wars parody from Dexter's lab and the 3D ones are so slow and boring that the only times I've watched it, it was because there was nothing else on tv and I was having dinner or something alone.

A Thread For Bold Claims

Troll said:

Listen.

You can all argue back and forth 'til the end of time about this, but we can all agree on thing: the lightsaber fights in the prequels were awesome. Easily ten times better than the OT.

Everything else pretty much sucked, though...

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If you listen to Lucas himself, this is exactly the way he wanted it to be. The Word of God is that the fights frankly sucked in the originals, because they were between an inexperienced kid, a multiply handicapped old man, and an old man. In the prequels, they took pains to develop styles (which you can read about until your eyes bleed on starwars.com) and make the fights realistic.

A Thread For Bold Claims

The fights in the prequels were not "realistic", there were sometimes cool, but in general completely lacking in any tension and uninteresting. In my opinion of course.

Why did you spin this off? It's talking about a bold claim from the thread and isn't really a derail in any way?

Six, you and I have very different taste.

Episode one: Bad
Episode two: So much worse.
Episode three: The best of the 3 prequels, but that isn't saying much.

checkeredhat said:

Six, you and I have very different taste.

Episode one: Bad
Episode two: So much worse.
Episode three: The best of the 3 prequels, but that isn't saying much.

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Yeah, I tend to put 1 and 2 on the same level: Horrible, with 3 being at least watchable but... not good.

I find it amusing that the technology degrades from the prequels to the original series.

At least the new Star Trek was in a parallel universe, thus explaining why things looked more modern.

I still argue with "prequels are bad/originals are much better". They all seem about the same to me. Esp. if you watch all of them in a row. They have the same feel, the same quirks, and the same bad aspects. Hell, half the things people berate in the prequels are present in the original. I think romance plays such a huge role in this claim. I won't go so far as to say the prequels are "good", but I certainly don't think they're significantly worse than the originals in an objective comparison that forgets about your 1983 Millennium Falcon playset and flame-retardant skintight pajamas.

The original trilogy follows good story arcs and strong character building that every good story needs. The prequals ignore every basic, foundational idea of creating interesting characters and story arcs. It's fine to disagree but everybody talking about all this "oh nostalgia is what makes you think they are good" is missing the point completely.

Ewan McGregor is the only actor who actually felt believable AT TIMES.

fuck you hayden whateversen.


edit: Liam Neeson was alright too i guess

The Emperor was well acted.

Padme in scenes with out Little Orphan Annie was good, she was even good in most of those scenes.

Jake, Hayden, and JarJar really hurt those films. Once past the romance crap in II, Hayden got better.

I just wish Lucas would have handed the director's job off like he did in V and VI. He is a great idea man, but bad to mediocre director.

sixpackshaker said:

I just wish Lucas would have handed the director's job off like he did in V and VI. He is a great idea man, but bad to mediocre director.

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This is one of the biggest problems with the 1-3 movies. Lucas is not a good director. He just isn't. If he handed off the directorial duties to someone else, it might've saved the first trilogy but they would also have needed to recast Anakin. Both actors that played him were just painful to watch and have forever marred one of the greatest movie villains of all time.

Like the Matrix and Pirates sequels, I don't hate the prequels. In terms of quality, they're nowhere NEAR the originals. But there's things to like about them. The special effects are fantastic (can't wait to see how they look on Blu-Ray) and Williams' score is, as always, superb.

The acting? Yeah, it's pretty bad, most especially the romance crap. McGregor made it worth watching most times. His emotional "YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!" was believable because you really felt like his heart had broken. It was one of the very, very few good moments as far as acting goes, though. The Emperor was good most times, but got really campy in the third installment.

I've mentioned this pretty much every time the prequels are brought up, but a friend of mine had a BRILLIANT theory before the third movie came out that I wish had come true:

Anakin was using the Force to make Padme love him. My friend's evidence was how quickly the romance progressed, and a particular line Padme said; something like "I don't like when you look at me like that." If they had gone that route, then Vader's role as the ultimate villain would have stayed put, especially if they didn't do the stupid "NOOOOOOO!"

NOOOOOOOO!

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The prequels went into the cliche business.

"I have a bad feeling about this..." was used way too often.

And the Yoda-speak was far worse in the prequels. I guess that all those years in the swamp, taught him to speak "common" better.

"Around the survivors, a perimeter create." Wow... just... amazing.

Espy said:

The original trilogy follows good story arcs and strong character building that every good story needs. The prequals ignore every basic, foundational idea of creating interesting characters and story arcs. It's fine to disagree but everybody talking about all this "oh nostalgia is what makes you think they are good" is missing the point completely.

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Well, I for one never said that's all it was. That being said, I can't say I disagree with you about the prequels. But again, I can't say I agree with you about the originals. I think the actors, particularly Fisher, Jones, and Ford made the characters more than anything the movie makers wrote or directed.

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------

But I don't think your argument really refutes romanticizing, either. You can find or not find those elements where you want them, and if you want them in the originals, they're there.

In my humble personal opinion, Phantom Menace suffered from being a bit too... candy-flavoured. It felt like watching a movie for small children, only with good CGI instead of guys wearing plastic 'armor' and masks. The feeling of a grand saga, a story of a young man growing up from a farm boy to a hero, was completely missing - and that void was filled by Jar Jar Binks.

As for Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, I believe they would have fared better if they had picked a better actor for Anakin. To me, the prequels were about Darth Vader, the story of a young Jedi's descent into the Dark Side. It could have been epic, a story of conflicting love and duty... and instead we got some kid throwing hissy fits about sand in his mangina. The only time when I really felt we saw Anakin as Darth Vader was when he led the assault on the Jedi Temple in Revenge. Otherwise he was just a whiny little brat who misses his mommy.

But then again, being a whinny little brat, that fell in love with his mommy replacement, is the reason that he flipped to the darkside.

whinny brats = evil...

Unfortunately,

whiny brats =/= real drama.

Instead,

whiny brats = "drama", as in 'llama face'.

It wasn't the actor playing Anakin that failed Episode II--he needed better material and a better director. He's been in other movies and done a good job. Lucas sucks as a director. When you can't get a good performance out of Samuel L. Jackson, you're a shitty director.

Episode II also suffers from being a complete waste of time. It's all build up for the Clone Wars cartoons, so that very little actually happens during the movie.

---------- Post added at 06:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------

Chazwozel said:

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Unfortunately, I must spread more rep around before giving more positive rep to Chaz, but posting these is good karma. I'm eager for him to get around to Episode III even though I actually like that one.

Episodes 4 and 5 would have been bad if Lucas had the technology to do what his vision was. In the documentary of Star Wars Lucas wanted Han Solo to be an alien (think Jar Jar here) but couldn't complete his vision. He would have gone over the top with the special effects as well (look at the rerelease). I left 6 out on purpose. Read this article: Did 'Star Wars' become a toy story? Producer Gary Kurtz looks back [Updated] | Hero Complex | Los Angeles Times The original idea for Return of the Jedi had Solo being killed, Rebel forces in tatters, Luke walking off into the sunset while Leia struggled with her position as queen. But that was scrapped for a more family friendly movie.
Episodes 1-3 were poorly written and poorly acted. Lucas was the first to step up and say 'These movies are for kids' which I can accept but if you are making a movie for kids, George, why pepper half the series with a political battle that no kid would ever care about? Episodes 4-6 were fun movies with a simple story of good versus evil. 1-3 not so much fun with a convoluted story going in so many directions you needed a map to find your way out.

To whomever gave me a negative rep because I dared to say I liked the lightsaber fights in the prequels: You need to lighten up. If you it bothers you THAT much that someone took a little joy from the movies that were admittedly bad in my opinion, you have some serious issues. Also, grow a spine if you're going to be so nasty and sign your comment.

mr_thehun said:

I really hate this rep B.S.

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I think it's fine when people use it correctly. Before this I had gotten neg rep, and while I don't care a whole lot about my "reputation" under my name, I thought they were fair comments. Usually I did do something stupid, and it was worthy of an admonishment (or joking admonishment). This struck a nerve, though, because it was a nasty little comment filled with obscenities simply because I said I liked a part of a movie. I have to wonder what mental defect makes a person so certain that their opinion is law that they would send nasty little comments to other people, but so cowardly that they do it anonymously. If you're going to be an asshole, at least have the sack to sign your name to it.

Spoken like someone with a low rep

Amorous Eyes;428319][QUOTE=Troll said:

filled with obscenities

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I wouldn't really say that calling the lightsaber battles "overchoreographed bullshit" is a comment "filled with obscenities".[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, I just read it once and was already primed to go off. It's still annoying, though.

Star wars neg rep= serious bznz

.Amy. said:

Star wars neg rep= serious bznz

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Right he is to worry. Bias runs strong throughtout this thread, yes. Bias leads to hate, hate leads to neg repping, neg repping leads to outlash and outlash leads to hate. hmMMMMmmmm. Circular this prcoess is.


While I enjoyed the Prequels myself, Charlie and the multi part review videos are correct that the prequels were not that great. Not that the original trilogy was a grand apex of cinema but it seemed alot more structured even if not super complex.

sixpackshaker said:

NOOOOOOOO!

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The prequels went into the cliche business.

"I have a bad feeling about this..." was used way too often.

And the Yoda-speak was far worse in the prequels. I guess that all those years in the swamp, taught him to speak "common" better.

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When I was a little kid, I fuckin' loved Yoda. He just had this fantastic puppety quirkiness. Aside from his hip-hoppity battles in the prequels, they pretty much ruined his ass. I mean, I guess you could say hanging around in the swamp made him go spotty, but the spotty dude is the dude I wanna watch. The guy who sat around with Samuel L. Jackson while they got their serious-faces on bore little resemblance to the crazy little dude who beat on R2-D2 with a stick over a tiny flashlight.

And that's another of the big problems, I think. I don't wanna see Darth Vader as a kid, just like I don't wanna see Yoda before he started laughing like a hyena and stealing people's food.

And yet, there was STILL potential. How cool would it have been to see Darth Vader actually hunt down the Jedi one by one, rather than them being blown away in two seconds by clone troopers?

Look at the potential for the character arc of such an awesome and classic villain, and what'd we get?

Angels and sand, man. Angels and sand.

Troll;428332][QUOTE=Amorous Eyes;428319][QUOTE=Troll said:

filled with obscenities

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I wouldn't really say that calling the lightsaber battles "overchoreographed bullshit" is a comment "filled with obscenities".[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, I just read it once and was already primed to go off. It's still annoying, though.[/QUOTE]

So then, you don't deserve negative rep for the light saber battles, but you DO deserve neg rep for the previous post getting pissed about someone neg-repping you about liking the light saber battles.

I pos and neg rep people all the time and I never sign either; the mystery is half the fun. Though if someone asks me "is this yours?" I won't lie. I'm just not gonna sign them because Juski/Troll/etc call it passive aggressive and want to know who's neg-repping them. If it really doesn't matter to you, then don't cry about it when it's anonymous. I posted one that irritated me in the thread for it because it was a dumb and incorrect comment, but I never asked who did it, called it passive aggressive, or demanded they sign it, and I won't.

Troll said:

To whomever gave me a negative rep because I dared to say I liked the lightsaber fights in the prequels: You need to lighten up. If you it bothers you THAT much that someone took a little joy from the movies that were admittedly bad in my opinion, you have some serious issues. Also, grow a spine if you're going to be so nasty and sign your comment.

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Haha, if you're getting butthurt over rep, you're the one who needs to lighten up. It's a little number under your name, it's not meant to be taken seriously. I'll even sign it next time if it makes you happy.

Next time Halforums goes down, we'll know why.

The prequels were to shiny. Star Wars was the franchise that said space could be dirty. shit, C-3PO had a silver leg, just because. Turns out someone just forgot to paint it.

God episodes 1-3 sucked.

Damn you Chaz!!! For posting those reviews... I spent the whole night watching those....

sixpackshaker said:

Damn you Chaz!!! For posting those reviews... I spent the whole night watching those....

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RedLetterMedia is a genius!

A creepy genius, no less

Philosopher B. said:

RedLetterMedia is a genius!

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This is true. When a feature-length review of your movie is more entertaining than the movie itself, you know you've completely failed as a filmmaker.

.Amy. said:

A creepy genius, no less

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Gotta love Mr. Plinkette

"Get the hell out of my popcorn bucket!"

He performs a more convincing psychotic killer than most actors in movies.

Really, when I first saw the prequels my biggest issue was just Jar Jar Binks, however, watching it again recently I have a lot more issues this time around.

The characterization is just screwed up. In Episode 1, Anakin is basically what amounts to a little angel of a kid. He does nothing bad and does not even raise an angry voice at anyone. This is before he goes into Jedi Training, which is supposed to make you even more controlled over your darker emotions, and yet the minute we see him already as a Jedi he is being a whiny bitch complaining about everyone. You also have Obi-Wan, who in Episode 5 even says to Yoda he was once "reckless" turned out to be a regular straight arrow, let's do everything by the book type of Jedi, even when he was just Qui-Gon's little bitch. Yoda has already been mentioned, as instead of a quirky little runt who only spoke weird sometimes, he was a stoic badass whose voice seemed to be a joke about the one thing people remember about his speech patterns.

To many characters were shoe-horned into the story to try and make it connect with the old movies. R2-D2 being one of Naboos droids? C3PO being built by Anakin? Chewbacca getting a 10 second cameo? Boba Fett's father who, what do you know, looks just like Boba Fett because Boba is a CLONE!? See we got Boba Fett in this movie!

Even the villians were forgettable. The Trade Federation? Droids? Are we really going to be fighting a giant group of aliens that basically are a bitch slap at Chinese trader? The fact every movie for some reason had to have a new sith lord in it? Oh look, DARTH MAUL! He is evil and... oh he died... well now we have COUNT DOOKU! Ohhhh and look he SURVIVED Episode 2 so obviously he will be a big threat in the third... oh wait he is dead now... Well GENERAL GRIEVOUS will... oh, dead already. The only reoccurring evil guy was obviously Palpatine, and they made him WAY to obvious.

Really, I can't say what could have made it better, other then what I think made it better in my head. Personally, I would have liked them to drop Anakin as the main character and instead focus on Obi-Wan. Make Obi-Wan into a reckless, hotheaded Jedi who has become a handful for Qui-Gon rather then his loyal pet. Later on in the first movie they find a young boy, angry and alone on Courasant (I know you wanted him to be Luke 0.5 but come on, at least put him on a different planet), but they see deep down he has a good heart.

When Qui-Gon is killed, Obi-Wan decides to take him under his wing not for Qui-Gon, but because he sees a bit of himself in the boy. Movie two, get rid of the Trade Federation, and instead make it so Palpatine is a shadowy figure like the first movie (aka we never see him), that is secretly building his clone army to take down the Republic (not from within, but from outside). Make the main villian under Palpatine be a reoccurring Sith apprentice, not unlike Vadar. The movie will concentrate on Obi-Wan and Anakin becoming close friends, rather then Anakin and Padme having akward dates, at some point in THIS movie Anakin meets Padme and they hit it off, but not with an akward "I love you, but I don't, but I do" crap, they just start dating, maybe near the end. The third movie will be the clones finally attack, and the war occurs causing the Republic forces versus a nearly neverending army of clones. Padme and Anakin already had two children between the movies, Luke and Leia, but with worry of the war spilling to Courasant, Anakin starts doing more and more desperate and questionable things to protect his family.

It all comes to a head when the sith apprentice kills Padme. Anakin hunts him down to the headquarters of Palpatine, where he kills the apprentice only to let his hate consume him, and he blames his friends for letting her die, joining with Palpatine as his new apprentice (making it much more like Luke when he first met the emperor on the second death star, only Anakin lost the mind games). He becomes Darth Vadar, Obi-Wan is pissed, fight occurs, blah blah blah, Obi-Wan runs away with the kids because Palpatine and his army have won and destroyed the senate. He takes one to Aldaraan to stay safe with his old friend Senator Organa and takes the boy with him, giving him to a loving family, but staying close as to watch over him, queue new movies, blah blah blah.

Sorry, rant over.

How exactly does a wife not tell her husband she is pregnant with twins until their birth when the husband has vast mental powers?

HCGLNS said:

How exactly does a wife not tell her husband she is pregnant with twins until their birth when the husband has vast mental powers?

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The husband never goes into the kitchen.

ZING!

mr_thehun said:

I have to agree though. I think that episode two and three had some of the most god aweful lightsaber fights of all time. OF ALL TIME!

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Ryan vs Dorkman

--Patrick

I mostly agree with Scythe above, except that the one thing I DID like about episode 2 was the way Darth Sidious (you might even describe it as... an insidious way...) manipulated the republic against itself. It's made even better in the Episode III novelization (In general I don't care much for Star Wars books, but Matthew Stover takes what might have been an average story and injects it with way more depth than I'd have felt possible), with the description of how the Clone Wars were the ultimate Jedi trap.

PatrThom;428450][QUOTE=mr_thehun said:

I have to agree though. I think that episode two and three had some of the most god aweful lightsaber fights of all time. OF ALL TIME!

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Ryan vs Dorkman


--Patrick[/QUOTE]

There are good and bad things with that.

Bad: Way too much twirling when momentum does nothing for an energy weapon (as opposed to a real sword). Some is forgivable for certain manuevers, but like the prequels, it happens way too much. The throwing the light saber up in the air before leaping to his feet. Also the ending...

Good: Kill attempts. One of the dumb things of the many dumb things in the prequel light saber duels (especially Yoda's) is that they seem more interested in hitting each other's light sabers than each other. In this video, you see attempts at going for the kill--the guy in black even swings up to slice between the other guy's legs at one point. There's also the use of physical force when merited. The actual kill was clever too.

The actual kill shows exactly why how Yoda would behave in a lightsaber duel. He simply disarms his opponent with the force, not by jumping around and swinging for the fences. In Yoda vs Dooku, you get the feeling that Yoda is just humouring Dooku during the show of force skills when in reality he could just hoist him up in the air and flop him around like chicken.

I know we seem to be talking about the prequels as a standalone trilogy, but I want to take a second here to address the biggest issues I have with how they connect to the original trilogy.
1) Leia said she remembered their mother, yet she died during childbirth.
2) Obi Wan said Anakin was a fighter pilot when they met, but he was an eight year old.
3) IN ORDER TO HIDE ANAKIN'S CHILDREN FROM HIM, THEY HIDE ONE ON HIS HOME PLANET, WITH HIS UNCLE, AND A JEDI WHOM ANAKIN IS HUNTING DOWN, AND THE OTHER WITH ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT FIGURES IN THE NEW REBELLION, WHOM ANAKIN IS HUNTING DOWN.

My parents hid easter eggs better than that, fergodssake.

It's like they didn't even go back to watch the original trilogy before writing the new one.

In regards to my overreaction last night, you're all correct. I'm sorry for flipping out like that.

checkeredhat said:

I know we seem to be talking about the prequels as a standalone trilogy, but I want to take a second here to address the biggest issues I have with how they connect to the origina trilogy.
1) Leia said she remembered their mother, yet she died during childbirth.
2) Obi Wan said Anakin was a fighter pilot when they met, but he was an eight year old.
3) IN ORDER TO HIDE ANAKIN'S CHILDREN FROM HIM, THEY HIDE ONE ON HIS HOME PLANET, WITH HIS UNCLE, AND A JEDI WHOM ANAKIN IS HUNTING DOWN, AND THE OTHER WITH ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT FIGURES IN THE NEW REBELLION, WHOM ANAKIN IS HUNTING DOWN.

My parents hid easter eggs better than that, fergodssake.

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Lol! Sure makes Yoda look like an ass to go to the trouble of losing himself in the poop-swamps of Dagoba.

Raemon777 said:

I mostly agree with Scythe above, except that the one thing I DID like about episode 2 was the way Darth Sidious (you might even describe it as... an insidious way...) manipulated the republic against itself. It's made even better in the Episode III novelization (In general I don't care much for Star Wars books, but Matthew Stover takes what might have been an average story and injects it with way more depth than I'd have felt possible), with the description of how the Clone Wars were the ultimate Jedi trap.

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Well, I would not mind it if he still did that, but he needs to remain in the shadows about it. Remember how ominous he was in the early movies? You had Darth Vader but you only ever heard about the Emperor when someone spoke about his rule. Later on you see him for a few seconds with Darth Vader bowing and you are like "ohhhh shit" and then finally we see him in the final movie, sitting dark and evil on his throne.

The one thing I hated most about the prequels was throwing Palpatine all over the damn place. You see him talking with the Trade Federation, you seem him with Padme whispering in her ear. We watch him take leadership of the senate, we watch him get supreme power from the senate, all the mystery was gone, and we all knew he was evil anyways. The whole time they try to make it seem like they are different people, and the whole time we all KNOW he is the bad guy. Each movie we watch how he gains his power without any mystery.

You know what would have been neat? Having some "no-name" senator in the background. We barely see him, maybe one cameo, and then suddenly in the third movie he invades the senate with his army and the whole thing is over, or maybe through his own mental manipulations he takes it over, but not so overtly we have to see it on screen and KNOW its him so quickly. Then we could have that mystery of the untouchable Emperor continue on for the whole series.

Then again, I also hated the fact the whole "Luke, I am your father" reveal lost all meaning when kids know that fact the minute Episode 4 starts if they watch the movies in order of chronology. I feel like such a nerd.

ScytheRexx said:

You know what would have been neat? Having some "no-name" senator in the background. We barely see him, maybe one cameo, and then suddenly in the third movie he invades the senate with his army and the whole thing is over, or maybe through his own mental manipulations he takes it over, but not so overtly we have to see it on screen and KNOW its him so quickly. Then we could have that mystery of the untouchable Emperor continue on for the whole series.

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I don't think that would work well at all.

In fact, could we put a moratorium on the fan-ficcing in this thread? The prequel trilogy was bad enough without having to add our own parallel universe awful prequel trilogies.

As soon as Lucas decided that the prequels where movies for kids he handicapped his ability to tell believable stories. The prequels needed to tell only two things; how Darth Vader came to be and how Luke and Leia were conceived. Since Lucas made this a kids film he was limited to kids thinking on the second part, Luke and Leia could only be conceived by a husband and wife. No extra-marital sex, no rape, just loving a loving nuclear family that is ruined by the dark side. So he was forced into creating a set of movies that explained how Padme and Skywalker fall in love and get married., which they crammed into the space of a few weeks in Ep II. In Ep III they jump to the dissolution of the marriage without ever establishing the marriage at all.

They married at the end of Episode II (on Naboo -_-) and then for the duration of the marriage Anakin was off fighting the Clone Wars.

escushion said:

In fact, could we put a moratorium on the fan-ficcing in this thread? The prequel trilogy was bad enough without having to add our own parallel universe awful prequel trilogies.

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Pft, I like coming up with alternate ideas to storylines. Not like I take them seriously. I just would have preferred that then what we had, I think it would have helped tell a better story by going back to the roots a bit more.