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The Triceratops Never Existed?

#1

Hylian

Hylian

http://gizmodo.com/5601514/the-triceratops-never-existed-it-was-actually-a-young-version-of-another-dinosaur



Scientists are saying that the Triceratops dinosaur—you know, the three horned one—was actually a juvenile form of a Torosaurus, the three horned dinosaur you don't know. Apparently, dinosaurs' skulls can shape-shift. The scientists, John Scannella and Jack Horner, believe that the Torosaurus and Triceratops are actually of the same species. According to the them, as a Triceratops aged, its horns and frill became more similar to that of a Torosaurus. Short becomes long, saw-edged becomes smoothed and so on. Having them be the same species would explain why there were never any young Torosaurus fossils discovered.
The duo say there is a clear transition from triceratops into torosaurus as the animals grow older. For example, the oldest specimens of triceratops show a marked thinning of the bone where torosaurus has holes, suggesting they are in the process of becoming fenestrated
Scientists sure enjoy crushing my childhood memory of The Land Before Time (they nixed Brontosaurus a while back). Hopefully they won't delete Triceratops too. [New Scientist via BoingBoing]


#2

Gryfter

Gryfter

Damn, Pluto's not a planet and now this.


#3

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Damnit! Everything that Power Rangers has taught me is now MEANINGLESS!


#4

Shakey

Shakey

Fuck them. Triceratops was always my favorite as a kid. They can't take this from me. :angry:


#5

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Couldn't they nix the Torosaurus and call it an adult Triceratops? It's all just names anyway, so it's a matter of choosing which existed, young Triceratops now called young Torosaurs, or old Torosaurs now called adult Triceratops.

And did we never find an adult Triceratops fossil then? I can understand if there were just young Triceratops and just adult Torosaurs, but I thought we had adult Triceratops fossils, which would discount this replacement theory. And is there no chance of these being branching species, a la evolution? Or is that problematic because Triceratops was a Cretacious dinosaur...


#6

Silver Jelly

Silver Jelly

O_O


#7

Gryfter

Gryfter

Couldn't they nix the Torosaurus and call it an adult Triceratops?
Couldn't those meddling scientists just leave well enough alone? ;)


#8

bhamv3

bhamv3

Damnit! Everything that Power Rangers has taught me is now MEANINGLESS!
Yeah, next thing you know, they're going to tell us Pteradactyl couldn't actually fly, Mastadon didn't have tusks, Saber-Tooth Tigers were actually Saber-Tooth Ocelots, and Tyrannosaurus was a vegetarian. :wtf:


#9

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Yeah! Why must they tamper with God's domain?!!

---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------

Damnit! Everything that Power Rangers has taught me is now MEANINGLESS!
Yeah, next thing you know, they're going to tell us Pteradactyl couldn't actually fly,[/QUOTE]

Actually, scientists have said the Pterodactyl couldn't fly; its mass wouldn't allow the possibility. It climbed and glided.


#10

bhamv3

bhamv3

Actually, scientists have said the Pterodactyl couldn't fly; its mass wouldn't allow the possibility. It climbed and glided.


#11



Wasabi Poptart

This isn't the first one. When I was a kid there were dinosaurs known as brontosaurus. Now they are apatasaurus because someone misidentified the juvenile of the species. I was watching a show not too long ago either on Discovery Channel or Nat Geo about dinosaurs and they mentioned that scientists are now looking more closely at dinosaur specimens to see if mistakes have been made.

---------- Post added at 11:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

Yeah, next thing you know, they're going to tell us Pteradactyl couldn't actually fly
You know those aren't dinosaurs, right?

---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

<--- has watched waaaaaaay too much Dinosaur Train on PBS with her 5-year-old


#12

Covar

Covar



#13

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Damnit! Everything that Power Rangers has taught me is now MEANINGLESS!
Yeah, next thing you know, they're going to tell us Pteradactyl couldn't actually fly, Mastadon didn't have tusks, Saber-Tooth Tigers were actually Saber-Tooth Ocelots, and Tyrannosaurus was a vegetarian. :wtf:[/QUOTE]

Tyrannosaurus was just a flightless vulture, eating the carcasses of dead/dieing dinosaurs.



-I hate that theory.


#14

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Damnit! Everything that Power Rangers has taught me is now MEANINGLESS!
Yeah, next thing you know, they're going to tell us Pteradactyl couldn't actually fly, Mastadon didn't have tusks, Saber-Tooth Tigers were actually Saber-Tooth Ocelots, and Tyrannosaurus was a vegetarian. :wtf:[/QUOTE]

Tyrannosaurus was just a flightless vulture, eating the carcasses of dead/dieing dinosaurs.



-I hate that theory.[/QUOTE]

Fortunately, unless we can time travel or replicate the Tyrannosaur, it will always be a theory, since there's no way to observe their behavior.

I don't think the theory makes sense considering the build of the animal.


#15

Jay

Jay

X-Rexes were actually scavengers and not predators because they were slow as fuck.


#16

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

X-Rexes were actually scavengers and not predators because they were slow as fuck.
Were any of the large dinos fast? How hard could it be to catch a Brontosaurus (well besides that they never existed)?

As far as I know we have no true measure for their speed.


#17

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

I thought the prevailing view of the T-Rex was actually a bit of column A and a bit of column B. Apex predator, but made of habit of kill-stealing when the opportunity presented itself, like lions.


#18

Hylian

Hylian

HowStuffWorks "Was Tyrannosaurus rex a predator or a scavenger?"


In everything from blockbuster movies to the imaginations of children, Tyrannosaurus rex is a bloodthirsty predator. It's fast and agile, able to chase down a Jeep and recover from being bowled over by King Kong. If you stand in front of a full-size T. rex skeleton in a museum, your own instincts might support that idea. The same would be true if you found yourself face to face with any other member of its family, Tyrannosauridae. These dinosaurs all had armlike forelimbs, a bipedal gait and huge mouths full of startlingly jagged teeth.


Most of the time, the Tyrannosauridae were the largest carnivores in their respective ecosystems. And aside from Hollywood drama, there's some fossil evidence to suggest that they deserve their reputation as aggressive predators. From the side, a tyrannosaurid's jaws look like saw blades made from long, daggerlike teeth. The teeth themselves are serrated, too, ideal for cutting their way through meat. According to analysis of skull fossils, Tyrannosaurus could bite down with a force of 183,000 to 325,000 newtons (3,822 to 6,788 pounds per square foot) [source: Meers]. Other researchers used the damage from a T. rex bite on a Triceratops fossil to estimate that the tyrant lizard's bite exerted a force of about 3,000 pounds (143,641 newtons), similar to the bite force of an alligator [source: Leutwyler]. Either way, T. rex's bite would be an ample weapon against large, prehistoric prey.

Dinosaur Bites

*In contrast to its relatively small arms, T. rex had powerful legs. Its thigh bones were relatively long, a trait common in animals with good running endurance. This suggests that a tyrannosaur's legs were adapting for traveling over* long distances for long periods of time, perhaps to chase down other dinosaurs.

Not all of the evidence for a predatory nature in T. rex comes from its own fossils. Many of the prey species that lived at the time have elaborate body parts that can be interpreted as defense mechanisms. Triceratops, for example, has a bony frill protecting its neck in addition to the three horns for which it is named. Though there were other predators against which the frill would be useful as defense, T. rex would have been the largest most of the time.

But how does this evidence stack up to the other side of the coin -- the idea that T. rex was basically a giant Cretaceous vulture? Would those powerful legs really allow a massive dinosaur to move quickly enough to capture prey? And is there any evidence that tyrannosaurids hunted?


Cretaceous Vultures: Tyrannosaur Scavengers

The idea that T. rex might have been a scavenger has been around since the early 1900s. The most famous proponent of the theory today is John R. Horner of Montana State University. According to Horner and other paleontologists, there are lots of reasons why T. rex may not have been a predator.


*One argument plays off the theory that dinosaurs evolved into birds. Some of the world's largest flying birds, such as condors, are scavengers -- they eat what they find instead of what they kill. By this logic, really big dinosaurs might have been scavengers, just like their really big avian counterparts today.

This is mostly speculative, but some aspects of T. rex anatomy suggest that it was a scavenger. Its nasal passages, for instance, are huge, potentially perfect for smelling faraway carrion. A tyrannosaurus's teeth and jaw are made for biting -- hard. When a T. rex closed its mouth, the lower teeth met the inside of the upper teeth, concentrating lots of force upward from the inside and downward from the outside. This force could break a bone just like you could break a stick if you bend it with two hands. Paleontologists have also analyzed a coprolite, or a pile of fossilized T. rex dung, and found bone fragments inside. This may mean that the dinosaur relied on picked-over bones for nourishment. To some, the presence of lots of broken teeth also suggests that T. rex chewed its way through bones out of necessity, damaging its teeth in the process.

The scavenger theory applies to a tyrannosaur's body, too. Calculations made by paleontologist James Farlow suggest that T. rex was so massive that it would have sustained life-threatening injuries if it fell while running [source: Hecht]. There's also the matter of T. rex's almost comically undersized forelimbs, which would not be of use in breaking a fall or helping the animal regain its footing.

Scientists also debate whether the dinosaur could run at all, and it would need to run to capture prey. There's no footprint, or trackway, evidence to suggest that it did, but most trackways aren't big enough to encompass the stride a T. rex would have used when running. Several studies analyzing different aspects of tyrannosaur physiology suggest that T. rex's speed topped out at about 10 meters per second, or 22 mph, but others suggest that it may have run much faster. Researchers John Hutchinson and Mariano Garcia suggest that tyrannosaur legs couldn't have supported enough muscle to allow fast running [source: Fitzgerald].

According to Graeme D. Ruxton and David C. Houston of the University of Glasgow, T. rex could have supported itself by eating only dead animals if the ecosystem had about the same amount of carrion as today's Serengeti. The two came to this conclusion by studying the energy it would take to find food compared to the energy the food would provide the dinosaur [source: Ruxton and Houston].

So it was possible that T. rex was a scavenger -- but was it likely? Next, we'll explore some of the most common counterarguments.

Cretaceous Hyenas: Tyrannosaur Opportunists

One possible discovery could offer proof that Tyrannosaurus rex was a scavenger -- evidence of healed-over tyrannosaur bites in other fossils. Most fossilized dinosaurs died from events unrelated to being eaten, so it should be easy to tell whether they survived past attacks from predators. Unfortunately, there are few fossils that show clear evidence of past T. rex bites.

John W. Happ of Shenandoah University suggests a Triceratops whose skull was discovered in 1997 lived for years after being bitten by a T. rex [source: Perkins]. An Edmontosaurus fossil shows evidence of vertebral spines that re-grew after a bite that may have been inflicted by a tyrannosaur [source: Carpenter]. But there are few such examples, and the cause of the bone damage is difficult to prove conclusively. There's also the question of whether any animal would survive long enough for its T. rex bite to heal.

Some of the same evidence used to suggest that T. rex may have been a predator can be interpreted differently. For example, T. rex had tiny arms, especially compared to the prehistoric raptors. But some researchers point out that armlike forelimbs aren't a prerequisite for being a predator -- snakes, for instance, manage without them. One study also defies the idea that these limbs were useless. Kenneth Carpenter of the Denver Museum of Natural History suggests that based on the size, shape and position of the arm bones and shoulder blades, these apparently puny limbs were powerful.


Then there's the matter of the abundance of broken dinosaur teeth some interpret as evidence of eating abandoned bones. If T. rex was a predator, it might have used one of many methods to attack prey, and each could have resulted in broken teeth. Tyrannosaurs might have:

* Ripped through the neck or throat, causing teeth to meet vertebrae and the skull
* Charged at prey with its mouth wide open to inflict a devastating wound, breaking teeth on whatever bones it hit
* Attacked with a bite to the abdomen, hitting ribs in the process

Plus, an animal as large as T. rex may have needed bones for nourishment regardless of whether it killed an animal or found a corpse.

This counterargument even gets down to the defense mechanisms of T. rex's potential prey. Was the neck frill on a Triceratops for protection or sexual display? And did it use its horn for defense against predators or combat with intruders on its territory? Since we have no way to observe the behavior of these animals, we don't really know. The most logical answer may be that Tyrannosaurus rex, like many large predators, was an opportunist, catching fresh meat when possible and eating carrion when necessary.

Regardless of whether Tyrannosaurus rex used its jaws to take down prey or bite through picked-over carcasses, it certainly used them for another purpose: biting its kin. Unearthed T. rex skull fossils display lots of evidence of bite wounds -- wounds that match up to the size, shape and position of tyrannosaur teeth. Whether this head biting was the result of mating rituals, territory defense or other social behaviors is unknown.


#19

LittleSin

LittleSin

I'm actually very sad about this.

Very, very sad.

Maybe not as sad as Alan Grant would be, though.


#20

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

So if the Triceratops wasn't really a dinosaur, who's poop did Dr. Sattler have her arm in?


#21



Reboneer

Meh, the triceratops will just become an unofficial synonym for the torosaurus, just like the brontosaurus is for the apatosaurus.


#22

Rob King

Rob King

So if the Triceratops wasn't really a dinosaur, who's poop did Dr. Sattler have her arm in?
Spielberg's!


#23

CynicismKills

CynicismKills

So if the Triceratops wasn't really a dinosaur, who's poop did Dr. Sattler have her arm in?
Spielberg's![/QUOTE]

It was fajita day on the set.


#24

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

*falls on his knees*

NOOOOOOOOO!!!


#25



Zarvox

Couldn't they nix the Torosaurus and call it an adult Triceratops? It's all just names anyway, so it's a matter of choosing which existed, young Triceratops now called young Torosaurs, or old Torosaurs now called adult Triceratops.
That's not really an option. The deal is, most animals have multiple names. You've got numerous common names for the same animal (puma, cougar, mountain lion), but only one scientific name (Puma concolor) This is the name that scientists put in the titles of their papers so everyone is absolutely sure they're talking about the same critter. For whatever reason, common names for dinosaurs never developed - we just use the Genus name (the first of the two words of the scientific name). So, for example, the dinosaur with the scientific name Maiasaura peeblesorum is generally called the Maiasaura.

Thus, 'Triceratops' and 'Torosaurus' are more than just names that you can swap out whenever you want. They're genus names - vital components of the nomenclature that scientists need to use so that everyone is talking about the same kind of critter.

Now, the interesting thing is which will get used. Traditionally, in such disputes (and they happen more often than you might think), the first name gets used. That's why scientists use the name 'Apatosaurus' instead of the more popular 'Brontosaurus' - the first guy to name that kind of animal named it Apatosaurus. So that's what you use. Now, according to Wikipedia, Torosaurus was discovered two years after Triceratops. So my money is on the Triceratops name sticking, while Torosaurus goes by the wayside.


#26

Cheesy1

Cheesy1

Well then:

Hooray naming traditions! :biggrin:


#27



Chazwozel

Welcome to science motherfuckers. We like to settle on a theory, promote it for a decade, and then completely 180 it to fuck with your heads. Scientist aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy muhaahahahaahhahaahahahahaahahahahaha


#28

Cajungal

Cajungal

Please just tell us if eggs are good or bad, oh mighty leaders. :'( I've been sitting here with an omelet for days.


#29

figmentPez

figmentPez

Please just tell us if eggs are good or bad, oh mighty leaders. :'( I've been sitting here with an omelet for days.
powdered eggs = bad
fresh eggs = good


#30

Rob King

Rob King

Welcome to science motherfuckers. We like to settle on a theory, promote it for a decade, and then completely 180 it to fuck with your heads. Scientist aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy muhaahahahaahhahaahahahahaahahahahaha
It's something like three years past now, and I still overheard a girl the other day asking what happened for Pluto to stop being a planet.

But then again, as someone pointed out, people still list "Brontosaurus" as one of their favorite dinosaurs, so we'll probably be hearing the Pluto thing for a long time to come.


#31



Chazwozel

Welcome to science motherfuckers. We like to settle on a theory, promote it for a decade, and then completely 180 it to fuck with your heads. Scientist aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy muhaahahahaahhahaahahahahaahahahahaha
It's something like three years past now, and I still overheard a girl the other day asking what happened for Pluto to stop being a planet.

But then again, as someone pointed out, people still list "Brontosaurus" as one of their favorite dinosaurs, so we'll probably be hearing the Pluto thing for a long time to come.[/QUOTE]

I don't know why people are so hung up on Pluto. It's not like the designation hurts its feelings or anything. It's still out there.


#32

Silver Jelly

Silver Jelly

Cold, alone and dejected.


#33

Rob King

Rob King

I don't know why people are so hung up on Pluto. It's not like the designation hurts its feelings or anything. It's still out there.
Yeah. And even if it does hurt the little guy's feelings, keeping it as a planet would be unfair to Ceres, who's feelings would be hurt in that eventuality. It's lose/lose as far as not hurting the feelings of celestial bodies goes.


#34

figmentPez

figmentPez

I don't know why people are so hung up on Pluto. It's not like the designation hurts its feelings or anything. It's still out there.
My very educated mother is upset by Pluto not being a planet anymore, and I'm hungry without any pizza.


#35

Seraphyn

Seraphyn

Please just tell us if eggs are good or bad, oh mighty leaders. :'( I've been sitting here with an omelet for days.
powdered eggs = bad[/QUOTE]

Powdered eggs? Yuck, who eats those (when not confined to using only rations due to being in space and all).


#36

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Please just tell us if eggs are good or bad, oh mighty leaders. :'( I've been sitting here with an omelet for days.
powdered eggs = bad[/QUOTE]

Powdered eggs? Yuck, who eats those (when not confined to using only rations due to being in space and all).[/QUOTE]

Anyone who has ever gotten eggs from a college cafeteria, fast-food restaurants, or an imitation gourmet sandwich chain like Cosi or Au Bon Pain.

Agreed with the yuck part, but it's more pervasive than you think if you buy breakfast on the way to work. Especially if you add bacon to it.


#37

Gusto

Gusto

Also weren't a lot of dinosaurs fuzzy? Like, covered with a fine down?


#38

Bubble181

Bubble181

Yep. Velociraptors even had full-fledged feathers, so the image you have from Jurassic Park is way off :-P


#39

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Cold, alone and dejected.
Pluto has Charon to keep him warm.


#40

nfldraftman

CincyGuy

This is a blow to my childhood that even George Lucas could not deliver....WTF???


#41

Silver Jelly

Silver Jelly

Cold, alone and dejected.
Pluto has Charon to keep him warm.[/QUOTE]

No, they simply stare awkwardly at each other, in the distance, staying still and never speaking to each other.


#42

Hylian

Hylian

Yep. Velociraptors even had full-fledged feathers, so the image you have from Jurassic Park is way off :-P



#43

figmentPez

figmentPez

Anyone who has ever gotten eggs from a college cafeteria, fast-food restaurants, or an imitation gourmet sandwich chain like Cosi or Au Bon Pain.

Agreed with the yuck part, but it's more pervasive than you think if you buy breakfast on the way to work. Especially if you add bacon to it.
Also, most scrambled eggs at restaurants in general are made from powdered eggs. Plus all the people who were part of scientific studies that showed that eggs raise cholesterol, guess what they were fed.


#44

checkeredhat

checkeredhat

In order to cope, I am choosing to look at this like pokemon. When Triceretops reaches a certain level, I'll say 30, triceretops evolves into torosaurus.

And learns solar beam.


#45

bhamv3

bhamv3

I think Triceratops would be a ground type.


#46

checkeredhat

checkeredhat

Really? I thought its head fin would be perfect for collecting sun.

I guess it is kind of like a Rhyhorn...


#47

Officer_Charon

Officer_Charon

Cold, alone and dejected.
Pluto has Charon to keep him warm.[/QUOTE]

No, they simply stare awkwardly at each other, in the distance, staying still and never speaking to each other.[/QUOTE]



*sigh*


#48



Joe Johnson

I don't know why people are so hung up on Pluto. It's not like the designation hurts its feelings or anything. It's still out there.
My very educated mother is upset by Pluto not being a planet anymore, and I'm hungry without any pizza.[/QUOTE]

I laughed.

Anyway, the other thing about Pluto - I think it was the least examined planet for me in school. We just sort of breezed past it. I'm not sure why people have romanticied it so much, except for "it means we gots 8 planets instead of 9 now".


#49

Silver Jelly

Silver Jelly

If I remember right, there was some patriotic stuff associated with the discovery of Pluto by an american?


#50

Jay

Jay



#51

Krisken

Krisken

That guy looks like a child molester. Just saying. (I think it's the mustache)


#52

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

That guy looks like a child molester. Just saying. (I think it's the mustache)
Did the Nerdy Man touch you on the naughty place?

Point it out to us on this doll...


#53

Krisken

Krisken

That guy looks like a child molester. Just saying. (I think it's the mustache)
Did the Nerdy Man touch you on the naughty place?

Point it out to us on this doll...[/QUOTE]
::searches the doll, can't find the part::
I think this thing is broken.


#54

Shannow

Shannow



#55

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

Cold, alone and dejected.
Pluto has Charon to keep him warm.[/QUOTE]

lets hope that persephone doesn't hear about this.


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